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Hey folks,
Just wanted to throw out my current little mage I'm working on, wanted to make sure I'm not completely screwing up my training. :)
Here he is!
Note : He still has about 28 days left to change stuff.
>info start
Level 0 Stats for Okram, Giantman Wizard
Strength (STR): 90
Constitution (CON): 50
Dexterity (DEX): 90
Agility (AGI): 90
Discipline (DIS): 50
Aura (AUR): 80
Logic (LOG): 80
Intuition (INT): 60
Wisdom (WIS): 50
Influence (INF): 20
Okram (at level 4), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 10 2
Combat Maneuvers...................| 25 5
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 25 5
Physical Fitness...................| 25 5
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Elemental Mana Control.............| 20 4
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 15 3
Perception.........................| 25 5
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 4
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 2
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 4
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)
Oooohh no you don't! You can't pin the blame for this on me!
Also, I have a suspicion a half-krolvin might be a better choice for war-mage; decent strength and con bonuses, and better agi/dex. Haven't really tried it out, though. War mages do need a lot of PTPs, and you have placed your physical stats high; but you might want to check a stat cruncher. I suspect that you can shave them down a bit in favor of more MTPs. As a profession, mage strength stat doesn't grow fast, but as a race, giankin does, and I have no idea how the two effects interact.
I could post my war mage's starting stats, but she's a half-elf, which again modifies the growth rates.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Also, I have a suspicion a half-krolvin might be a better choice for war-mage; decent strength and con bonuses, and better agi/dex. Haven't really tried it out, though. War mages do need a lot of PTPs, and you have placed your physical stats high; but you might want to check a stat cruncher. I suspect that you can shave them down a bit in favor of more MTPs. As a profession, mage strength stat doesn't grow fast, but as a race, giankin does, and I have no idea how the two effects interact.
I could post my war mage's starting stats, but she's a half-elf, which again modifies the growth rates.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
OK, upon your own head rests the blame for the fiasco; I wash my hands of it.
OK, I am really not sure how germane this starting stat data is, since your giantkin mage will have a different ROI for strength, and probably con, agi and dex also. Best to consult a stat cruncher. Also, her spell training is odd even for a mutant; the fascination with MnE spells is just because she finds spells 409 and 415 amusing. (They are CS based attack spells; she's pumped her MnE CS up to 505 so far). Most folks would probably recommend emphasizing Wizard circle to help with enchanting, or MjE if you are going for an immolation build. Ignore the 2 ranks of Spirit mana control; that's a side effect from an enhancive. In fact, any stat or skill that's higher than could ordinarily be obtained is due to one item or another. Also, you will note that she has another 100 ranks of spells to learn before she maxxes them out; this will be a long term project.
Heh; my plan is another 13 ranks of MnE, then switch.
>info start
Level 0 Stats for Gwenievierre, Half-Elf Wizard
Strength (STR): 83
Constitution (CON): 81
Dexterity (DEX): 70
Agility (AGI): 80
Discipline (DIS): 60
Aura (AUR): 63
Logic (LOG): 63
Intuition (INT): 45
Wisdom (WIS): 72
Influence (INF): 43
>inf
Name: Gwenievierre Zauberfrau Race: Half-Elf Profession: Wizard (shown as: Travel Guide)
Gender: Female Age: 55 Expr: 7735752 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 98 (24) ... 102 (26)
Constitution (CON): 99 (24) ... 101 (25)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Agility (AGI): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 88 (14) ... 88 (14)
Aura (AUR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Logic (LOG): 100 (25) ... 108 (29)
Intuition (INT): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Wisdom (WIS): 99 (24) ... 99 (24)
Influence (INF): 85 (22) ... 85 (22)
Mana: 259 Silver: 40
>skill
Gwenievierre (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 70 15
Combat Maneuvers...................| 206 106
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 202 102
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 160 60
Spirit Mana Control................| 10 2
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 172 72
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 170 70
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 58
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 87
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 58
Training Points: 49 Phy 0 Mnt (272 Phy converted to Mnt)
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
OK, I am really not sure how germane this starting stat data is, since your giantkin mage will have a different ROI for strength, and probably con, agi and dex also. Best to consult a stat cruncher. Also, her spell training is odd even for a mutant; the fascination with MnE spells is just because she finds spells 409 and 415 amusing. (They are CS based attack spells; she's pumped her MnE CS up to 505 so far). Most folks would probably recommend emphasizing Wizard circle to help with enchanting, or MjE if you are going for an immolation build. Ignore the 2 ranks of Spirit mana control; that's a side effect from an enhancive. In fact, any stat or skill that's higher than could ordinarily be obtained is due to one item or another. Also, you will note that she has another 100 ranks of spells to learn before she maxxes them out; this will be a long term project.
Heh; my plan is another 13 ranks of MnE, then switch.
>info start
Level 0 Stats for Gwenievierre, Half-Elf Wizard
Strength (STR): 83
Constitution (CON): 81
Dexterity (DEX): 70
Agility (AGI): 80
Discipline (DIS): 60
Aura (AUR): 63
Logic (LOG): 63
Intuition (INT): 45
Wisdom (WIS): 72
Influence (INF): 43
>inf
Name: Gwenievierre Zauberfrau Race: Half-Elf Profession: Wizard (shown as: Travel Guide)
Gender: Female Age: 55 Expr: 7735752 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 98 (24) ... 102 (26)
Constitution (CON): 99 (24) ... 101 (25)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Agility (AGI): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 88 (14) ... 88 (14)
Aura (AUR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Logic (LOG): 100 (25) ... 108 (29)
Intuition (INT): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Wisdom (WIS): 99 (24) ... 99 (24)
Influence (INF): 85 (22) ... 85 (22)
Mana: 259 Silver: 40
>skill
Gwenievierre (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 70 15
Combat Maneuvers...................| 206 106
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 202 102
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 160 60
Spirit Mana Control................| 10 2
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 172 72
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 170 70
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 58
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 87
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 58
Training Points: 49 Phy 0 Mnt (272 Phy converted to Mnt)
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
So... how does a build like this work? Is it effective? How well do you defend against attacks? Do you rely heavily on out of class spells? How hard do you hit and what kind of RT (hasted or non-hasted, just please specify so I know what I'm looking at) What kind of weapon are we talking about and I assume it's max lightened?
>>So... how does a build like this work? Is it effective? How well do you defend against attacks? Do you rely heavily on out of class spells? How hard do you hit and what kind of RT (hasted or non-hasted, just please specify so I know what I'm looking at) What kind of weapon are we talking about and I assume it's max lightened? <<
OK, with the recent change to 513, I can now bolt almost as hard as a pure casting wizard. It used to be that you couldn't stop 513 at will when you wanted to, and having it in effect reduces your weapon AS, so it wasn't practical for warmages. But now you can fire it up, cast a bolt or two, and stop it again; a similar change was made to 102, which bnefitted those spiritual weapon user types.
Mages of any sort are always effective killers. That having been said, pure casters are probably more effective since they will be relying mostly on bolt spells combined with rapid fire. I went the weapon using route for the fun factor. (See my comments on MnE circle and spells 409/415; I have an odd sense of fun). Possibly the one exception as to combat effectiveness is the greater construct in OTF, due to their anti-magic field; weapons are probably preferable here.
None of my folks rely on spells from others; it's against my philosophy. My feeling is, if you can't hunt something on your own power, hunt something else. However, my mage does rely on statues and pure potions to get a boost to DS and AS. Note that you may hit periods where you have to underhunt for a few trainings, but that's no biggie, you just have to kill a couple more critters to get a full head.
Mechanically, I often rely on spells to disable my opponents; e-wave is a perennial crowd pleaser. I also use CMans, mostly feint but occasionally disarm, to set the foe up for a weapon attack. Remember, you can't get as much weapon and CM training as a warrior; your weapon AS will never match theirs outright, but that doesn't matter if you can get your target's DS low enough.
RT swinging a weapon is 1 second right now; the first lore I got was air lore, for the effect on haste. And no, you don't need to use a lightened weapon; weight, oddly enough, is not a factor in weapon RT unless you are so weak that carrying it encumbers you. It's your agi/dex bonus total vs base weapon speed that affects this. (don't train in polearms thinking to use a lance; your fat slow giantkin will always be using it more slowly than a faster race). I started out with OHE and shield, using a fel-hafted waraxe (heavy crit weighting), and used this until mid 70's training, at which point I switched over to THWs. (I found myself a nice perfect maul and enchanted it up to 7x). You can set up a macro that pretty much keeps you perma-hasted (stop 506\rincant 506); just hit it every 45 seconds or so. And haste is also very useful in cutting down RT when a critter hits YOU with some maneuver or other.
I also got a bunch of earth lore, mainly for the effect on self cast strength (it raises weapon AS; I forget the exact seed table it uses, but I stopped at 72 ranks ... +9 AS ... because I didn't think it was cost effective to go further). A nice side effect is beneficial effects on such spells as boil earth, stoneskin, hurl boulder and stonefist. However, as a giankin you can probably defer this, or even omit it entirely and sink the TPs into something else.
Since I am usually using weapons, I rarely have mana problems; I got some elemental mana control to aid with charge item (mainly statues), but it also helps with mana leech if for some reason I need to cast that spell. As for weapon AS, I can crank it up to 430 (and more if the foe is undead) with pure potions and society symbols.
Defense is reasonable; sword and board might be better vs missile weapons. However, I can also use a runestaff if necessary; got plenty of magical skill ranks for a decent DS, and in fact I carry a runestaff in my backpack, just in case I run into something with a high missile or bolt spell AS. I can't remember the last time I actually got it out and used it, however.
Hope all that stuff helps; good luck and have fun.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
OK, with the recent change to 513, I can now bolt almost as hard as a pure casting wizard. It used to be that you couldn't stop 513 at will when you wanted to, and having it in effect reduces your weapon AS, so it wasn't practical for warmages. But now you can fire it up, cast a bolt or two, and stop it again; a similar change was made to 102, which bnefitted those spiritual weapon user types.
Mages of any sort are always effective killers. That having been said, pure casters are probably more effective since they will be relying mostly on bolt spells combined with rapid fire. I went the weapon using route for the fun factor. (See my comments on MnE circle and spells 409/415; I have an odd sense of fun). Possibly the one exception as to combat effectiveness is the greater construct in OTF, due to their anti-magic field; weapons are probably preferable here.
None of my folks rely on spells from others; it's against my philosophy. My feeling is, if you can't hunt something on your own power, hunt something else. However, my mage does rely on statues and pure potions to get a boost to DS and AS. Note that you may hit periods where you have to underhunt for a few trainings, but that's no biggie, you just have to kill a couple more critters to get a full head.
Mechanically, I often rely on spells to disable my opponents; e-wave is a perennial crowd pleaser. I also use CMans, mostly feint but occasionally disarm, to set the foe up for a weapon attack. Remember, you can't get as much weapon and CM training as a warrior; your weapon AS will never match theirs outright, but that doesn't matter if you can get your target's DS low enough.
RT swinging a weapon is 1 second right now; the first lore I got was air lore, for the effect on haste. And no, you don't need to use a lightened weapon; weight, oddly enough, is not a factor in weapon RT unless you are so weak that carrying it encumbers you. It's your agi/dex bonus total vs base weapon speed that affects this. (don't train in polearms thinking to use a lance; your fat slow giantkin will always be using it more slowly than a faster race). I started out with OHE and shield, using a fel-hafted waraxe (heavy crit weighting), and used this until mid 70's training, at which point I switched over to THWs. (I found myself a nice perfect maul and enchanted it up to 7x). You can set up a macro that pretty much keeps you perma-hasted (stop 506\rincant 506); just hit it every 45 seconds or so. And haste is also very useful in cutting down RT when a critter hits YOU with some maneuver or other.
I also got a bunch of earth lore, mainly for the effect on self cast strength (it raises weapon AS; I forget the exact seed table it uses, but I stopped at 72 ranks ... +9 AS ... because I didn't think it was cost effective to go further). A nice side effect is beneficial effects on such spells as boil earth, stoneskin, hurl boulder and stonefist. However, as a giankin you can probably defer this, or even omit it entirely and sink the TPs into something else.
Since I am usually using weapons, I rarely have mana problems; I got some elemental mana control to aid with charge item (mainly statues), but it also helps with mana leech if for some reason I need to cast that spell. As for weapon AS, I can crank it up to 430 (and more if the foe is undead) with pure potions and society symbols.
Defense is reasonable; sword and board might be better vs missile weapons. However, I can also use a runestaff if necessary; got plenty of magical skill ranks for a decent DS, and in fact I carry a runestaff in my backpack, just in case I run into something with a high missile or bolt spell AS. I can't remember the last time I actually got it out and used it, however.
Hope all that stuff helps; good luck and have fun.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Basically, while rogues sneak and ambush, and warriors use guild skills to set up foes for the kill, warmages use spells. I have NO idea why I saved this clip; there is absolutely nothing special about it. Judging by my AS, I'm around 78 trainings here, so these guys are a bit under me.
> s
[Hidden Plateau]
A ruined stone walkway traverses the base of the steep mountainside, running from north to south. Struggling grasses and shattered marble ruins dot the terrain along the path, and a large weathered stone rests near a fork in the path. You also see a lesser minotaur and a lesser minotaur.
Obvious paths: north, south, southwest
>
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
Amazingly, you manage to parry the attack with your waraxe!
>
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +376 vs DS: +393 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +72 = +91
A clean miss.
> incant 410
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
A lesser minotaur is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
A lesser minotaur is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
> stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a dir hafted vultite waraxe at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +325 vs DS: +213 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +95 = +239
... and hit for 48 points of damage!
Rapped the lesser minotaur's knuckles hard!
Right hand sounds broken.
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.<<
Repeat this about 20 times and both minos are dead. I omit the total combat rounds to spare your eyes. A simple enough combat; lesser minos are pretty benign. But this exemplifies why I switched to THWs; my OHE, even with HCW added, just takes too long. 40-50 damage per hit on critters with 400 or so health? Ick!
On the other hand, some places have rather dangerous critters that tend to swarm. You asked about defense; the answer is not to let the foe attack in the first place. It's mandatory to keep them down and in RT in such cases. You CAN'T let these guys fire off a stone fist, nor can you use cone of lightning here.
>>ne
[Thanatoph Bowels, West Lobe]
This dimly lit T-intersection echoes with a soft thrumming heightened by a vibrating thwump-thwump as something imaginably massive heads in this direction. The soft sound of trickling water seems to come from within the walls and moves in a southeasterly direction.
Obvious exits: northeast, southeast, south, southwest
>
Surrounding rocks and dirt meld together as an earth elemental rises from the ground!
>
A massive column of whirling rock comes into view, forming an Illoke elder!
>
A pair of huge stony arms jut up from the ground, pulling an Illoke jarl to the surface
>incant 410
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Illoke elder.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
An Illoke jarl is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
An Illoke elder is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
An earth elemental is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
>stance off
> cman feint
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
[Roll result: 192 (open d100: 93) Penalties: 0]
You feint to the right, the Illoke elder buys the ruse and twists awkwardly to block the blow that never came!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R>stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a perfect blue steel flail at an Illoke elder!
AS: +316 vs DS: +142 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +58 = +274
... and hit for 95 points of damage!
Right leg ripped from socket at the knee!
The Illoke elder is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.<<
Etc. Rinse and repeat. Someone suggested sleeping some of a group of critters, keeping them out of the fray. That's also a possible tactic, although it would cost 12 mana to sleep a jarl, as opposed to 10 for an e-wave. Still, warmages rarely run into mana problems.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
> s
[Hidden Plateau]
A ruined stone walkway traverses the base of the steep mountainside, running from north to south. Struggling grasses and shattered marble ruins dot the terrain along the path, and a large weathered stone rests near a fork in the path. You also see a lesser minotaur and a lesser minotaur.
Obvious paths: north, south, southwest
>
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
Amazingly, you manage to parry the attack with your waraxe!
>
A lesser minotaur swings a curved silvery white greataxe at you!
AS: +376 vs DS: +393 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +72 = +91
A clean miss.
> incant 410
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
A lesser minotaur is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
A lesser minotaur is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
> stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a dir hafted vultite waraxe at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +325 vs DS: +213 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +95 = +239
... and hit for 48 points of damage!
Rapped the lesser minotaur's knuckles hard!
Right hand sounds broken.
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.<<
Repeat this about 20 times and both minos are dead. I omit the total combat rounds to spare your eyes. A simple enough combat; lesser minos are pretty benign. But this exemplifies why I switched to THWs; my OHE, even with HCW added, just takes too long. 40-50 damage per hit on critters with 400 or so health? Ick!
On the other hand, some places have rather dangerous critters that tend to swarm. You asked about defense; the answer is not to let the foe attack in the first place. It's mandatory to keep them down and in RT in such cases. You CAN'T let these guys fire off a stone fist, nor can you use cone of lightning here.
>>ne
[Thanatoph Bowels, West Lobe]
This dimly lit T-intersection echoes with a soft thrumming heightened by a vibrating thwump-thwump as something imaginably massive heads in this direction. The soft sound of trickling water seems to come from within the walls and moves in a southeasterly direction.
Obvious exits: northeast, southeast, south, southwest
>
Surrounding rocks and dirt meld together as an earth elemental rises from the ground!
>
A massive column of whirling rock comes into view, forming an Illoke elder!
>
A pair of huge stony arms jut up from the ground, pulling an Illoke jarl to the surface
>incant 410
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Illoke elder.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
An Illoke jarl is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
An Illoke elder is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
An earth elemental is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
>stance off
> cman feint
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
[Roll result: 192 (open d100: 93) Penalties: 0]
You feint to the right, the Illoke elder buys the ruse and twists awkwardly to block the blow that never came!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R>stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a perfect blue steel flail at an Illoke elder!
AS: +316 vs DS: +142 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +58 = +274
... and hit for 95 points of damage!
Right leg ripped from socket at the knee!
The Illoke elder is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.<<
Etc. Rinse and repeat. Someone suggested sleeping some of a group of critters, keeping them out of the fray. That's also a possible tactic, although it would cost 12 mana to sleep a jarl, as opposed to 10 for an e-wave. Still, warmages rarely run into mana problems.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
How odd; I just noticed that my weapon AS was actually less in the second clip. My pure potion and Symbol of Courage must have worn off; or else I got hit with elemental disjunction earlier and lost my strength spell. I really need to keep track of such things. Doh! :p
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
I know minotaurs are below level 100, was this when you were like-level? I don't know what the Illoke elders are like, so I don't know if that's a solid comparison for me. What do you hunt now? Do you hunt in offensive or defensive? What kind of armor are we looking at? Enchant? Padding at all? How long is a typical fight against most like-level critters? How well do you handle swarming creatures?
Oh; ok the minotaurs were when I was upper 70s if I recall; Iloke elders and jarls are 88-89. I think I was 90 or 91 trains in that clip. I started the Bowels when I was 86 and hunted there till 93, when I moved to Illistim and hunted OTF to cap. Right now I am in the landing handling some business, so I am not hunting right now. Also I am busy trying to advance my wee rogue in the Rogue's Guild; that is a serious time hog, let me tell you! My other gals are getting jealous and starting to demand equal time.
Swarms? Well, the same as handling those three, basically. I might use major e-wave instead of the regular one if there's a lot of the critters, since it does damage as well, and has maybe a 20% outright kill rate on crittable foes, and I'll follow up with cone of lightning if there is no prohibition against it. (Bowels have rooms full of explosive gas ... no fire lightning or plasma spells there! And water rooms in Nelemar toss lightning back at you, as do a lot of invasion critters). Remember, you have spell aiming for a reason. Oh, and I attuned to earth, btw, just so that elementally flaring spells like 435 wouldn't do such things, and nothing is immune to impact flares as far as I know. But 435 and a few casts of cone are mana intensive, and might actually require me to try mana leech. OTF is great in that regard; I can't even learn from Ithzir scouts, but they have mana which I can suck up at need.
Or if things look hairy, I'll run like a scared little girl! "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em"; sensible folks know when they are outclassed and/or badly outnumbered. My empath has 30 ranks of MOC, which cuts down on the FoF pushdown of your DS in a swarm; my mage has none. If a bunch of critters manage to start swinging at me, my DS will go South in a hurry.
OK, yes I do have some nice armor, but I didn't pick it up until my mid 70's; before that I was using "plain" 6x double leather.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Swarms? Well, the same as handling those three, basically. I might use major e-wave instead of the regular one if there's a lot of the critters, since it does damage as well, and has maybe a 20% outright kill rate on crittable foes, and I'll follow up with cone of lightning if there is no prohibition against it. (Bowels have rooms full of explosive gas ... no fire lightning or plasma spells there! And water rooms in Nelemar toss lightning back at you, as do a lot of invasion critters). Remember, you have spell aiming for a reason. Oh, and I attuned to earth, btw, just so that elementally flaring spells like 435 wouldn't do such things, and nothing is immune to impact flares as far as I know. But 435 and a few casts of cone are mana intensive, and might actually require me to try mana leech. OTF is great in that regard; I can't even learn from Ithzir scouts, but they have mana which I can suck up at need.
Or if things look hairy, I'll run like a scared little girl! "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em"; sensible folks know when they are outclassed and/or badly outnumbered. My empath has 30 ranks of MOC, which cuts down on the FoF pushdown of your DS in a swarm; my mage has none. If a bunch of critters manage to start swinging at me, my DS will go South in a hurry.
OK, yes I do have some nice armor, but I didn't pick it up until my mid 70's; before that I was using "plain" 6x double leather.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Okay, so my wizard is pretty low level, so I don't have anything to really base the caster vs your training plan. Maybe you could offer some conjecture, or perhaps even experience if you've done it. If I were to go caster, which primarily stays in guarded stance save for that little fraction of a second that I cast a spell, vs your warmage who, I assume, is in offensive at least for the attack and RT afterwards... How hard can I expect to get smashed if I'm using say 4-5x leathers? With the limited times dodge is really available, as compared to say a monk, how much would dodge take effect here?
I don't know of any casting profession, pure or weapon user, that trains in dodge at all except as a post cap thing; the cost is just ridiculous. Get a friendly ranger to cast some mobility on you if you are that concerned.
And yes, a warmage does stay in offensive stance longer than a bolter, and a pure caster is certainly easier to play. (Typical macro: stance offen\rincant spell X\r stance def\r). On the other hand, early on all pure casters suffer from mana problems, and often end up using weapons for the first 20 or so trainings anyway before fixskilling over to pures. The thing is, if you want to go pure caster, you will probably want to have stats that emphasize mental rather than physical TPs. Even so, by cap you will end up converting huge amounts (read thousands) of PTPs to MTPs. Hmm, I have a pure caster mage floating around somewhere; level 15 or so. I'll dig her up and see what she looks like again. But Gwen was planned from the beginning to be a warmage forever, hence the stat placement.
4x full leathers is standard equipment for young mages, so you should have no problems if you fight wisely. You could go up to double leathers later on, if you don't mind a small spell hindrance. But soft leather armor, while better than robes, doesn't have much of a crit divisor. Mages survive best by not being hit in the first place. Although, a giantkin can pack on a lot of health, which is a help.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
And yes, a warmage does stay in offensive stance longer than a bolter, and a pure caster is certainly easier to play. (Typical macro: stance offen\rincant spell X\r stance def\r). On the other hand, early on all pure casters suffer from mana problems, and often end up using weapons for the first 20 or so trainings anyway before fixskilling over to pures. The thing is, if you want to go pure caster, you will probably want to have stats that emphasize mental rather than physical TPs. Even so, by cap you will end up converting huge amounts (read thousands) of PTPs to MTPs. Hmm, I have a pure caster mage floating around somewhere; level 15 or so. I'll dig her up and see what she looks like again. But Gwen was planned from the beginning to be a warmage forever, hence the stat placement.
4x full leathers is standard equipment for young mages, so you should have no problems if you fight wisely. You could go up to double leathers later on, if you don't mind a small spell hindrance. But soft leather armor, while better than robes, doesn't have much of a crit divisor. Mages survive best by not being hit in the first place. Although, a giantkin can pack on a lot of health, which is a help.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
A combat from OTF, just for completeness sake. A pure mage would have probably taken out the griffin with rapid fire and some high damage bolt spell like major shock. This was before the change to 513, if I recall, so I am not using that AS buff; ergo, my bolt AS isn't as good as a pure caster's would be. I bopped it a few times with hurl boulder before realizing the darned thing was within weapon range. I think I am level 97-98 here.
>>A war griffin flaps its mighty wings rapidly, creating a powerful gust of wind that buffets the area!
The wind then subsides.
> target griffin
> stance offen
You are now targeting a war griffin.
>
You are now in an offensive stance.
> incant 510
> stance defen
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a war griffin.
You hurl a large boulder at a war griffin!
AS: +382 vs DS: +314 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +29 = +131
... and hit for 21 points of damage!
Blow grazes right arm lightly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.<<
OK, I cast 510 at it 4 more times ... plink plink plink plink! (Log omitted to save space). I was lucky it didn't go for it's traditional grab and drop maneuver during that time frame. Whew! So I decided to just smash it upside the head with a sledgehammer. Their DS in offensive stance is apparently pretty feeble.
>> stop 506
> incant 506
With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Haste spell.
You notice that things have returned to their normal speed.
>
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You begin to notice the world slow down around you. Strange.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A war griffin tries to bite you!
AS: +425 vs DS: +515 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +52 = -6
A clean miss.
> stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a war griffin!
AS: +384 vs DS: +307 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +87 = +205
... and hit for 72 points of damage!
Knocked sideways several feet by blow to back.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R> stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a war griffin!
AS: +384 vs DS: +307 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +14 = +132
... and hit for 21 points of damage!
Torn muscle in the war griffin's left leg!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R> stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a war griffin!
AS: +384 vs DS: +280 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +89 = +234
... and hit for 120 points of damage!
Incredible smash to what used to be a stomach!
The war griffin crashes to the ground, motionless.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.<<
I should have started using weapons as soon as it came within attack range; wasn't aware at that point that they would stay within weapon range. I figured for some reason that they would dive down and then fly back up, like a fighter plane making a strafing run. Live and learn.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
>>A war griffin flaps its mighty wings rapidly, creating a powerful gust of wind that buffets the area!
The wind then subsides.
> target griffin
> stance offen
You are now targeting a war griffin.
>
You are now in an offensive stance.
> incant 510
> stance defen
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a war griffin.
You hurl a large boulder at a war griffin!
AS: +382 vs DS: +314 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +29 = +131
... and hit for 21 points of damage!
Blow grazes right arm lightly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.<<
OK, I cast 510 at it 4 more times ... plink plink plink plink! (Log omitted to save space). I was lucky it didn't go for it's traditional grab and drop maneuver during that time frame. Whew! So I decided to just smash it upside the head with a sledgehammer. Their DS in offensive stance is apparently pretty feeble.
>> stop 506
> incant 506
With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Haste spell.
You notice that things have returned to their normal speed.
>
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You begin to notice the world slow down around you. Strange.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A war griffin tries to bite you!
AS: +425 vs DS: +515 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +52 = -6
A clean miss.
> stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a war griffin!
AS: +384 vs DS: +307 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +87 = +205
... and hit for 72 points of damage!
Knocked sideways several feet by blow to back.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R> stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a war griffin!
AS: +384 vs DS: +307 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +14 = +132
... and hit for 21 points of damage!
Torn muscle in the war griffin's left leg!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R> stance offen
> attack
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a war griffin!
AS: +384 vs DS: +280 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +89 = +234
... and hit for 120 points of damage!
Incredible smash to what used to be a stomach!
The war griffin crashes to the ground, motionless.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.<<
I should have started using weapons as soon as it came within attack range; wasn't aware at that point that they would stay within weapon range. I figured for some reason that they would dive down and then fly back up, like a fighter plane making a strafing run. Live and learn.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Warmages are incredibly effective.
I've done some mathematical analysis on the AS slowdown post 75 though. Since Semis and Squares can 2x weapon skills, while also 1x (minimum) in CMAN, Wizards run a .5 AS per level deficit post 25. While this is compensated slightly by 509 and earth lore, the real tipping point and slowdown hits once 425's effectiveness is capped out at 75 MnE ranks.
As Throgg has posted though, even with the AS slowdown, it's still possible to be viable with a warmage build at cap.
Personally, I took the Archer Mage path, as I chose a halfling when I created Whirlin. Quad-dipping DEX bonus for AS and additional phantom weighting was just too good to pass up. I think I'm sporting somewhere around a 413 Bow AS without outside spells or enhancives. With the aiming bonuses of 402 and 404, usually 2-3 aimed shots at 1 second each can put down a griffin. The part I love best though is that 513 doesn't mess with ranged AS... So, I can still bolt at 465 or so (current post-cap work in progress is MjE, currently at 55 ranks), perfect for a 505 opener.
Pures have even an easier time... but I still stand that warmages and archer mages are just more fun to play.
For some additional information, and a math-heavy analysis of the different builds, I'll drop a reference to my guide that I put over on PC, and later transcribed to Krakiipedia:
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Guides_by_Whirlin:_Pure,_Archer,_and_War_Mages_Guide
~Whirlin
I've done some mathematical analysis on the AS slowdown post 75 though. Since Semis and Squares can 2x weapon skills, while also 1x (minimum) in CMAN, Wizards run a .5 AS per level deficit post 25. While this is compensated slightly by 509 and earth lore, the real tipping point and slowdown hits once 425's effectiveness is capped out at 75 MnE ranks.
As Throgg has posted though, even with the AS slowdown, it's still possible to be viable with a warmage build at cap.
Personally, I took the Archer Mage path, as I chose a halfling when I created Whirlin. Quad-dipping DEX bonus for AS and additional phantom weighting was just too good to pass up. I think I'm sporting somewhere around a 413 Bow AS without outside spells or enhancives. With the aiming bonuses of 402 and 404, usually 2-3 aimed shots at 1 second each can put down a griffin. The part I love best though is that 513 doesn't mess with ranged AS... So, I can still bolt at 465 or so (current post-cap work in progress is MjE, currently at 55 ranks), perfect for a 505 opener.
Pures have even an easier time... but I still stand that warmages and archer mages are just more fun to play.
For some additional information, and a math-heavy analysis of the different builds, I'll drop a reference to my guide that I put over on PC, and later transcribed to Krakiipedia:
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Guides_by_Whirlin:_Pure,_Archer,_and_War_Mages_Guide
~Whirlin
I've done some mathematical analysis on the AS slowdown post 75 though. Since Semis and Squares can 2x weapon skills, while also 1x (minimum) in CMAN, Wizards run a .5 AS per level deficit post 25. While this is compensated slightly by 509 and earth lore, the real tipping point and slowdown hits once 425's effectiveness is capped out at 75 MnE ranks.
As Throgg has posted though, even with the AS slowdown, it's still possible to be viable with a warmage build at cap.<<
Statistics aren't everything, of course. A warrior who does 2x in weapon and CMan can generate a weapon AS 150 more than mine (with wide variations due to race etc.), but the ability to incapacitate a whole room with something like e-wave, plus self cast haste, makes up for a lot of that.
I didn't realize that 513 didn't affect archery, which makes the archer mage even more attractive. Haven't tried it myself, but had a friend who was into archery, and she was quite deadly.
As Throgg has posted though, even with the AS slowdown, it's still possible to be viable with a warmage build at cap.<<
Statistics aren't everything, of course. A warrior who does 2x in weapon and CMan can generate a weapon AS 150 more than mine (with wide variations due to race etc.), but the ability to incapacitate a whole room with something like e-wave, plus self cast haste, makes up for a lot of that.
I didn't realize that 513 didn't affect archery, which makes the archer mage even more attractive. Haven't tried it myself, but had a friend who was into archery, and she was quite deadly.
This information is really helpful to me since I am eventually going to make Nairena a two-hander war mage. She already has her Vaalorn Katana and an Elegant Ebon Hafted Golvern Maul.
I think the fact that wizards have tools such as: e-wave, haste, earth lore to incrase AS with Strength, and a solid bolt attack (when the moment arises). All this makes war mages a dangerous foe on the battlefield.
Lady Nairena
Mage of Ta'Vaalor
Member of the Eahnor Assembly
I think the fact that wizards have tools such as: e-wave, haste, earth lore to incrase AS with Strength, and a solid bolt attack (when the moment arises). All this makes war mages a dangerous foe on the battlefield.
Lady Nairena
Mage of Ta'Vaalor
Member of the Eahnor Assembly
Never said statistics are everything. However, when we're discussing an environment where baselines need to be established based on averages and norms, the variation from the average is material. I want to ensure that the discussion is objective in nature, and adequate discussion is based around both the tangible as well as the intangibles. And due to 425 capping at 75 ranks, that gap increases substantially at cap. Is it enough to make it completely unviable? Absolutely not. Is it enough to make you feel a bit weaker and may make you be a bit more selective on hunting grounds than the next swinging class? Absolutely. Is it something most people need to worry about? Probably not!
Now, regarding 513, the mechanical adjustments, including the introduction of the STOP verb for self-cast spells, allow 513 to be viable for a melee build as well as an archer build. However, pre-cap, this can be incredibly costly if you're adjusting your attack method multiple times per hunt, and a bit prohibitive on a non-pure's mana pool. Furthermore, 513's growth is based on MjE, and pre-cap, you're emphasizing more WIZ and MnE for DS and AS growth for your primary weapon. The effects of 513 become less material. Additionally, the TP cost of training both 2x spell aiming, CMAN, and weapon training becomes awfully difficult to balance. Typically I recommend bipassing Spell aiming for a melee warmage build, to emphasis spell growth for CS based spells and DS growth.
However, I would also like to reaffirm that mechanically, 513 does not impact ranged AS at all, and both ranged weapons as well as spell bolts obtain some of the strongest phantom Dex Crit weighting. Furthermore, 402 and 404 both offer phantom perception bonuses (perception aids in aiming, as well as maneuver defense). So, while we don' have the ambush ranks of a ranger or rogue, we can still aim relatively well! Stacking them sucks though at lower levels.
The decision for Ranged versus melee builds, of course, is a subjective one. Mechanically and mathematically, I would lean towards ranged if you're a smaller race, such as halfling, gnome, etc... and lean towards weapons if you're one with a native STR bonus. It only requires a 5 STR bonus to fire an aimed longbow in 1 second with haste, 51 ranks of MjE, and 20 air ranks!
~Whirlin
Now, regarding 513, the mechanical adjustments, including the introduction of the STOP verb for self-cast spells, allow 513 to be viable for a melee build as well as an archer build. However, pre-cap, this can be incredibly costly if you're adjusting your attack method multiple times per hunt, and a bit prohibitive on a non-pure's mana pool. Furthermore, 513's growth is based on MjE, and pre-cap, you're emphasizing more WIZ and MnE for DS and AS growth for your primary weapon. The effects of 513 become less material. Additionally, the TP cost of training both 2x spell aiming, CMAN, and weapon training becomes awfully difficult to balance. Typically I recommend bipassing Spell aiming for a melee warmage build, to emphasis spell growth for CS based spells and DS growth.
However, I would also like to reaffirm that mechanically, 513 does not impact ranged AS at all, and both ranged weapons as well as spell bolts obtain some of the strongest phantom Dex Crit weighting. Furthermore, 402 and 404 both offer phantom perception bonuses (perception aids in aiming, as well as maneuver defense). So, while we don' have the ambush ranks of a ranger or rogue, we can still aim relatively well! Stacking them sucks though at lower levels.
The decision for Ranged versus melee builds, of course, is a subjective one. Mechanically and mathematically, I would lean towards ranged if you're a smaller race, such as halfling, gnome, etc... and lean towards weapons if you're one with a native STR bonus. It only requires a 5 STR bonus to fire an aimed longbow in 1 second with haste, 51 ranks of MjE, and 20 air ranks!
~Whirlin
Hey Whirlin!
I have been following your guides on Krakii, but I have one request :
Could you finish off your bard guide once you have a moment? There is a section of your guide where you say "It depends a lot on race (more on races later in the guide)" but you never actually cover races in the guide :(
I have been following your guides on Krakii, but I have one request :
Could you finish off your bard guide once you have a moment? There is a section of your guide where you say "It depends a lot on race (more on races later in the guide)" but you never actually cover races in the guide :(
Re: Bard Guide.
Ahh, my apologies on never finishing the transcription of my bard guide to the krakii article!
The original guide is hosted on the Player's Corner forums at
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?81587-Polearm-OHE-Pure-THW-Bard-Information-amp-Bard-Guide
I got it stickied! If you're super bard interested, there has also been a lot of subsequent discussion about the topics covered in the guides, and some of the basis for eventual changes that were made. Just stay out of the political side of PC, and it's a decent enough place!
I now remember spending quite few hours working on the migration of formatting to Krakii, and got to an INCREDIBLY table-heavy section of the guide, and guess I never finished the migration! PHP tables were a pain as it was on the PC posts, let alone conversion to a wiki format!
But, I now have a sticky note to myself to work on it when I have some time available. Thanks for letting me know!
~Whirlin
Ahh, my apologies on never finishing the transcription of my bard guide to the krakii article!
The original guide is hosted on the Player's Corner forums at
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?81587-Polearm-OHE-Pure-THW-Bard-Information-amp-Bard-Guide
I got it stickied! If you're super bard interested, there has also been a lot of subsequent discussion about the topics covered in the guides, and some of the basis for eventual changes that were made. Just stay out of the political side of PC, and it's a decent enough place!
I now remember spending quite few hours working on the migration of formatting to Krakii, and got to an INCREDIBLY table-heavy section of the guide, and guess I never finished the migration! PHP tables were a pain as it was on the PC posts, let alone conversion to a wiki format!
But, I now have a sticky note to myself to work on it when I have some time available. Thanks for letting me know!
~Whirlin
You want to talk about fun... over in Shattered, my warrior (closing in on 3x cap) has 40ranks in MnE and just got a spirit glove longbow at CCF. With 425 and other fun he is now at a minimum of about 560 AS with the bow going up to the mid 600s, firing aimed at eyes in 3 seconds. With 2x Ambush, 2x Perception, 2x Ranged he is seriously deadly, plus he still has some redux even with all the spells and 3x dodge and armor. I don't even bother with ewave to knock them down, just charge in and shoot them in the eyes and watch the the bodies hit the floor. No, it's not particularly challenging, none-the-less it's pretty satisfying seeing the carnage.
Bard guide finished transcription. Riltus noticed an error in THW DS calculation, so I've adjusted that potentially since you last looked at it.
Regarding the warrior... Once you get to that much XP, everything is pretty much fun and easy. Even only at 8m, (barely post-cap), hunting is a 612. But it also matters where you hunt... OTF has been a joke since 95, it's laughable at 100, and I haven't bothered with Nelemar or Rift (due to alts hunting in Ta'Illistim and such).
~Whirlin
Regarding the warrior... Once you get to that much XP, everything is pretty much fun and easy. Even only at 8m, (barely post-cap), hunting is a 612. But it also matters where you hunt... OTF has been a joke since 95, it's laughable at 100, and I haven't bothered with Nelemar or Rift (due to alts hunting in Ta'Illistim and such).
~Whirlin
