Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 04/30/2011 08:30 AM CDT
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1212 ยท Shroud of Deception [shroud]
Not yet implemented
Duration: 1200 seconds + 60 seconds per rank of Minor Mental spells
Type: Utility
The caster is able to cloak himself in an illusion, disguising his form in order to take on the appearance of another race, gender, or profession, as well as the physical features to match. The attributes which can be disguised are subject to the caster's Minor Mental spell ranks.
Spell Ranks Attributes
0 Eye Color
Eye Trait
Hair Color
Hair Style
Hair Texture
Hair Quirks
Skin Color
Nose Trait
Facial Features
Distinguishing Mark
Height
* Custom
20 Gender
30 Race
Culture
40 Profession
50 Unique
[*] Custom requires knowledge of the spell to utilize.
The SHROUD verb may be used to construct a profile prior to casting the spell. Every aspect of a configuration (such as eye color) change requires 1 mana and 3 seconds of cast roundtime. Example:
>SHROUD SET 1 RACE DARK ELF
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>SHROUD SET 1 PROF SORCERER
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>SHROUD SET 1 HCOLOR BLACK
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>SHROUD PROFILE 1
>INCANT 1212


Seriously?? Shrouds, cloaks, illusions... really? We're futzing around with useless maelstroms and twirling toy stilettos in our fingers and Minor Mental is getting an illusion that trumps all ours (aside from demon utility)... We're suppose to be masters of illusions and won't even get access to this outside of scrolls???

Who in the world dropped the ball on this?
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 04/30/2011 06:32 PM CDT
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>Seriously?? Shrouds, cloaks, illusions... really? We're futzing around with useless maelstroms and twirling toy stilettos in our fingers and Minor Mental is getting an illusion that trumps all ours (aside from demon utility)... We're suppose to be masters of illusions and won't even get access to this outside of scrolls???

>Who in the world dropped the ball on this?

Get used to it. They've taken stuff from us for non-existent professions a long time ago. At least we're still keeping the illusions we do have.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 04/30/2011 11:18 PM CDT
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>>At least we're still keeping the illusions we do have.
~Rakkash


Yey... all that will leave us with is demon illusions which will be detrimental to Balefire hunting and broken roses when Curse gets mashed with Nightmare.

I still really want to know how and why this is acceptable that this is being release as a spell that Sorcs can't even acquire. I mean, in an RP sense, we're the most persecuted class.. one would think we'd find it convenient to change our appearance to avoid capture, as has likely been suggested as a guild skill idea countless times.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 04/30/2011 11:29 PM CDT
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Because only a few of us sorcerer blow hards care, and among them do not include GMs. Enjoy your new bolt spell when it gets here, and save the fights for when they try to nerf our existing spells.



"Halflings speak Halfling & Common. They don't speak in dog whistle." - GM Thandiwe
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/01/2011 03:19 AM CDT
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>all that will leave us with is demon illusions which will be detrimental to Balefire hunting

I was hoping for a different outcome when I mentioned the demon illusions needing to be accounted for, but it is what it is, I suppose. While not ideal, I don't think it's a deal breaker. I suppose if you want an optimistic viewpoint, you could realize that minor demons were never really intended to aid us in combat aside from holding items and mana. It's a small bone, for sure, but red-headed step children probably shouldn't toss'em back when they arrive.

>broken roses when Curse gets mashed with Nightmare.

I'm a little afraid of this, too, but I'm SUUUURE our lovely GMs are aware of the various items that may have nightmare in them and have it covered.

>I still really want to know how and why this is acceptable that this is being release as a spell that Sorcs can't even acquire.

As E said, this is the sort of thing that happens when you don't have a GM that really cares about the profession.

>I mean, in an RP sense, we're the most persecuted class.. one would think we'd find it convenient to change our appearance to avoid capture, as has likely been suggested as a guild skill idea countless times.

It's not just in-game, either. We were at the top of the food chain for a long time. We were the model for other classes when they started GSIV. Now those other professions have been built up around us and we've fallen to the bottom thanks to monks being worked on for the last decade and not having a GM that seems too interested in Sorcerery.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/01/2011 07:34 AM CDT
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>It's not just in-game, either. We were at the top of the food chain for a long time. We were the model for other classes when they started GSIV. Now those other professions have been built up around us and we've fallen to the bottom thanks to monks being worked on for the last decade and not having a GM that seems too interested in Sorcerery.

Incorrect. We were not top of the food chain up until GS4.

We were top of the food chain up until maybe 1997, way before GS4, but when they nerfed DC and MD and changed critter TDs, we lost our mojo and were definitely no longer the best hunters. At that point magical rogues probably were.

>We're suppose to be masters of illusions and won't even get access to this outside of scrolls???

I don't think we're supposed to be masters of illusions, I think the illusion guild skill is a mere crutch they were forced to give us after singling out our pet spell for special restrictions. Rangers can cart ferocious animals (that DO bite) around town, but a chained demon is not allowed.

Be more upset about the theft of Forget and its replacement with the less effective Corrupt Essence than with the theft of illusions.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/01/2011 08:25 AM CDT
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>>this is the sort of thing that happens when you don't have a GM that really cares about the profession.

It probably doesn't help our dev that we eat people alive.

I'm not saying we should be less passionate, just maybe less vitriolic and toxic. We have a lot to be angry about and have for years but I think it's important we realize what a bitter pill we have made ourselves for a potential dev GM to swallow. I think we should own that we're partially responsible for our predicament.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/01/2011 08:57 AM CDT
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>It probably doesn't help our dev that we eat people alive.

>I'm not saying we should be less passionate, just maybe less vitriolic and toxic. We have a lot to be angry about and have for years but I think it's important we realize what a bitter pill we have made ourselves for a potential dev GM to swallow. I think we should own that we're partially responsible for our predicament.

I think the problem lies more with the re-structuring to a group effort over various professions rather than having individual gurus. If there are none among that group that have much interest in sorcerery, development is more likely to fall behind.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/01/2011 09:29 AM CDT
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>I'm not saying we should be less passionate, just maybe less vitriolic and toxic. We have a lot to be angry about and have for years but I think it's important we realize what a bitter pill we have made ourselves for a potential dev GM to swallow. I think we should own that we're partially responsible for our predicament.

I would love to see where any of us were especially mean to Strathspay.



"Halflings speak Halfling & Common. They don't speak in dog whistle." - GM Thandiwe
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/01/2011 10:09 AM CDT
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I don't think it is just to a single person that we need to be careful, E. It starts with deteriorating civility in tone and empathetic understanding with one another.

As that erodes, all who read it see it. This opens the door for misunderstanding and apprehension for one's own viewpoint, even if one has not to date been the target. There are few asbestos-lined wet blankets in play anymore, and fewer still with the patience to use them.

And finally, any one GM in today's dev circles can't be held out. Today so much more so than in the day of Banthis, Romulus (and my personal favorite "No."-phion), the GMs function as a team -- and a slight to one affects all to some greater or lesser degree. We all, player and GM alike, are only human, in the end.

Doug
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/01/2011 10:48 AM CDT
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Hahahaha. Ok, Doug.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/01/2011 03:15 PM CDT
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>>I would love to see where any of us were especially mean to Strathspay.

Agreed....

Personally I don't think any of the folks here were mean, rude, etc. to any of the GMs who have worked or showed interest of working on Sorcerery. I will give you a great example. Tiqal (sp?) Asked us to post our concerns with this profession. In a professional manor, many of us supplied a laundry list.

I do see frustration coming from the Sorcerer community. It becomes the splitting and re-splitting of hairs to say a "feature" is working as intended. I think posting these frustrations or concerns in this forum is fine. If this group remained quiet then all must be okay.


Peace
Zhelas



(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/03/2011 02:33 PM CDT
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I hesitate to post this since it will more than likely be used as fuel on the fire instead of being regarded as informative to our reasoning behind this spell:

Warden on 10/16/2009 5:31:13 AM under the Mentalist Circle topic:
Illusions are definitely not the domain of Sorcerers alone. Sorcerers were given their Illusions guild skill out of necessity, but they were given it with the stipulation that this was not an indicator that they were somehow now the sole masters of that aspect of magic, and there has never been an effort (at least by the GMs) to portray Sorcerers as such. Bards were originally to be the most illusion-based class (back when they had Illusionary Item and Illusionary Creature on their spell list). Those spells were ultimately discarded and since replaced with Lullabye and Song of Valor, but the decision to change was for technical reasons and mechanical needs, not due to a desire to remove illusions from Bards. Bards and Wizards still have illusions in their lists.
I consider Mentalism to be more tied into illusion/messing with another person's perception of reality than either Wizards or Sorcerers. I don't expect to focus heavily on that aspect, but there will be a small number of spells representing illusion on the Mental lists.


We do plan for the spell to be available on scrolls, which should make it accessible to Sorcerers and other professions.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/03/2011 02:49 PM CDT
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To be clear, a sorcerer's domain is what other professions don't need.




"Halflings speak Halfling & Common. They don't speak in dog whistle." - GM Thandiwe
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/05/2011 10:14 AM CDT
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>To be clear, a sorcerer's domain is what other professions don't need.

We need facebook style like buttons by posts.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/09/2011 10:02 PM CDT
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>>Illusions are definitely not the domain of Sorcerers alone. Sorcerers were given their Illusions guild skill out of necessity, but they were given it with the stipulation that this was not an indicator that they were somehow now the sole masters of that aspect of magic, and there has never been an effort (at least by the GMs) to portray Sorcerers as such.<<

You know, I could actually accept this, except for one thing: Warden never bothered to articulate what Sorcerers were the masters of and then implement a series of mechanical benefits that made the distinction valuable.

Forget (703): Yanked and given to Savants
Will Enhancement (714): Never implemented because they decided it fit with Savants
Illusions: domain staked out as belonging to Savants

And of course, right after Planar Shift (740) was implemented, Nilven & Co. went to great lengths to state that an even better transport spell would be given to Savants.

Over the last few years, a large number of passionate players have articulated concerns about the direction -- or lack thereof -- of the profession. If one message should have come clear, it should have been this: the players of Sorcerers do not want the class be the "me too" profession.

We want seperate, distinct, and valued benefits to our choice in mechanics.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/09/2011 11:32 PM CDT
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^^^

Good post.
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/11/2011 08:00 PM CDT
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great post....particularly liked this:

>Warden never bothered to articulate what Sorcerers were the masters of and then implement a series of mechanical benefits that made the distinction valuable.

~Moredin
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/14/2011 10:52 PM CDT
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I've read this thread with great interest. And as I read it dawned on me why I don't play my white witch much any more: She has no identity. I knew from the beginning that I didn't want to go the 'dark and evil' route with her, but the 'good and kind' route doesn't seem to work either, and now I know why.

My question to you all is: what IS a sorcerer? What should we be masters of?

I remember when I began playing back in '97 that I was scared stiff of sorcerers. They were so bloody powerful sowing death and destruction far and wide. That was before the guild, before illusions, when demonology and necromancy were still a gleam in a GM's eye. Before the whole profession was castrated. But what was their identity then? Were they just supposed be be power-mad, crazy sowers of destruction?

What do you want to be a Master of? I don't have a clue what I want. Is there anything left to be a master of that's unique to sorcerers?

Wizards have enchanting as their unique mastery. No one else can enchant. No scrolls for it, etc. Only a wizard can do it. Bards loresing. Also unique, I believe. Are there any other truly unique skills? Isn't most everything else, even up to raising the dead, something that used to be uniquely a cleric's mastery, but now can be done by potions and scrolls and Paladins, possible for any character if of high enough level? Anyone can pick a lock. Anyone can heal with scrolls and potions and herbs.

Other than animating the dead and summoning a demon, neither of which my white witch wishes to do, what is there that could be unique to sorcerers?
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/15/2011 01:02 AM CDT
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Evarin heavily favors scrolls. That would be what he, as a sorcerer, is master of. Beyond that, I have an Animate Dead Wand and a special Demon rattle so I also heavily use those spells for defining him as a sorcerer. However, in the case of those last two, sorcerers without those items have to jump through a TON of hoops in order to make those their niche.

We have 2 of our three circles that were DESIGNED to be generic and relatively unspectacular. That just leaves our sorcery circle. If it isn't Demons, Undead, or scrolls, you're pretty much screwed.





"Halflings speak Halfling & Common. They don't speak in dog whistle." - GM Thandiwe
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/15/2011 01:02 PM CDT
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>>Other than animating the dead and summoning a demon, neither of which my white witch wishes to do, what is there that could be unique to sorcerers?

Some will say scrolls. . . but scrolls are too abundant to be worthwhile as a 'unique professional' skill. True, sorcerers can extend the lives of scrolls, but frankly -- if you can pick another one up in a short time, what matter?

For a while, ideas were floating about how various professions could 'copy' wizard enchanting, with specific focus on abilities / results in line with their calling. It blended the idea of clerical blessing, and we see some of it implemented (by design or luck?) in paladins, rangers, and in armor skills in the arms user classes. But consider this:

1) Wizards can enchant (permanently increase the offensive striking power, or defensive capability).

2) Warriors / rogues can make adjustments (temporarily improve the carrying, encumbrance and hindrance factors of armor).

3) Clerics can bless (temporarily making allowing offensive striking power to work against undead).

4) Rangers can imbue (temporarily magically increasing the resistances to the elements of nature.)

5) Bards can create articles of war from pure air (temporary, etc.)

6) Paladins can bond with and improve the offensive capabilities of select weaponry, usually self-directed.

Notice who's missing? Bringing back some of the older discussions (modified slightly to today's lands) what if:

7) Empaths could (?: temporarily | permanently) imbue armor with healing properties -- perhaps stem the flow of blood, maybe even in extreme cases impart a 'troll-blood' type quality to armors.

8) Sorcerers could (?: temporarily | permanently) ensorcell weapons that can 'curse' or 'drain spirit' upon a strike; ensorcell shields to improve one's resistance to magic (TD) or remove offending limbs that strike; ensorcell armors so that weapons that do strike may break rather than cause damage (destruction of metals, etc.), and perhaps ultimately imbue demonic powers into armor (backlash criticals of heat, plasma or cold when struck).

I don't mind that wizards are the only profession that can enchant. I do mind that the rest of the professions have such limited capabilities in the same areas -- capabilities that would increase the depth and interaction in the lands, just as armor adjusting has -- and bring some highly unique flavors to the lands.

That's part (a moderate part) of what I'd like to see sorcerers be the masters of.

Doug
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/15/2011 04:44 PM CDT
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It's an interesting question. When I rolled my sorcerer in 1999, profession was just an extra consideration. I had worked out generally what his identity was going to be and it was purely a personality concept I wanted to play with; race and class were just a "Meh, I've never done one of those before" thing. I found avenues to express that personality I've devised using some of the crueller or more sadistic elements of sorcery like blood-burst, the old break limb and pain infliction, but that came about after the fact.

Today, in a very different world of sorcery than the one he started in, the only spell that marks him out is 740. Post-facto, a fascination almost akin to an addiction to planar travel and exploration became a defining characteristic of not who he was but why he was and how he became that way. It's become a roleplaying tool I could never do without, to the point where he'd rather take a rift from the north gate to the bank than walk there in half the time it took to chalk and cast.

To me, Planar Travel is quite simply the coolest thing going in GS4.

The only other spell that I consider defining to my own character is implosion. Mostly just as a threat, though. ;-)

Dave, Brandain's Bard
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/15/2011 05:24 PM CDT
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>>To me, Planar Travel is quite simply the coolest thing going in GS4.

Especially if you get catastrophic failure and release an angry demon.


Peace
Zhelas



(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/15/2011 05:35 PM CDT
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Except from what I hear, Savants will get an even better form of Planar Travel. As to how, no idea...
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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/15/2011 07:23 PM CDT
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>6) Paladins can bond with and improve the offensive capabilities of select weaponry, usually self-directed.
Dough

The above statement is silly and IMO incorrect. The absolutely ONLY reason to know a Paladin is for Fluidity. That's it. /done


More on topic, I've never seen a reason to play the sorcerer profession post GS3 and agree with all the various sentiments that they should have a reason to be played.


-farmer

*
That's just what we want, criss-crossing furrows all over the town streets from someone wandering through with their animated plow super buddy.
-Strath

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Re: Minor Mental circle stealing from our guild? on 05/15/2011 08:47 PM CDT
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Sorry Fahmer - the concept there was that paladins could improve weapon abilities. I thought Sanctify was pretty cool, myself.

But yes, agreed with the more on topic point.

Doug
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