Previous Thread
Previous
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
tl:dr: the disarm mechanic is awful
This does not come as a surprise to anyone, but the disarm mechanic is miserable. This week when my internet momentarily dropped a character was left ghosted in a hunting area, and eventually disarmed by a creature more than 10 levels below him. Despite having the weapon registered and found in the janitor's possession by the GH, it could not be returned to me because the same situation had happened to me last August, and per POLICY 13 there is no guarantee that objects will be returned. There was no recourse for me ever getting this weapon back, not now or later; it is to be owned by the janitor on Simu's servers for eternity it seems. The weapon could go for a few million on the open market, so this is a monetary loss for me as a customer, despite my premium and regular accounts being billed on a regular cycle for years. I take reasonable steps to avoid being disarmed - mostly by avoiding the mechanic all together (which tells you enough about the value it brings to the game), but also by having sounds and highlights for being disarmed, using eblade on cheap weapons if possible (in this case I need acuity), and of course by paying attention. I can do nothing when FIOS decides to act up and leave my character vulnerable. I was pleased to see the new hunting areas have managed to keep the disarm aspect of the mechanic without the item loss, and know that it is a task to revamp existing characters. I also understand the need for a uniform corporate policy and the difficulty of overriding game mechanics on an ad-hoc basis. But ultimately penalizing customers with outdated undefendable mechanics is not a good business practice, and it is Kafkaesque that the weapon is kept in the janitor's possession for all eternity.
We do realize item loss can cause some headaches and frustrations, since no one wants to lose anything.
Disarm mechanics are a current game mechanic that has existed in our game for quite awhile. While there are plans to revamp disarm, it is not going away. Up until 2010, we had an unspoken "one-time replacement" policy, where we would replace a lost item once. After 2010, we made it more of a situation where we'd offer item replacement, but continued replacement, especially with normal game mechanics, would be declined if they were occurring more than once a year.
Wyrom, PM
Disarm mechanics are a current game mechanic that has existed in our game for quite awhile. While there are plans to revamp disarm, it is not going away. Up until 2010, we had an unspoken "one-time replacement" policy, where we would replace a lost item once. After 2010, we made it more of a situation where we'd offer item replacement, but continued replacement, especially with normal game mechanics, would be declined if they were occurring more than once a year.
Wyrom, PM
>Disarm mechanics are a current game mechanic that has existed in our game for quite awhile. While there are plans to revamp disarm, it is not going away. Up until 2010, we had an unspoken "one-time replacement" policy, where we would replace a lost item once. After 2010, we made it more of a situation where we'd offer item replacement, but continued replacement, especially with normal game mechanics, would be declined if they were occurring more than once a year.
I have 1 really nice weapon I really liked using. It holds 40 charges of 510, refills 10 charges a day. It's a one of a kind (as far as I know) runestaff. It would suck to lose it to current disarm mechanics. Once I started to venture into hunting areas that had disarm mechanics, the weapon visited my locker and hasn't left since. It's been years (I don't level terribly fast, I'm in no rush, plus the breaks in play here and there) since I've used it and it sucks, but it falls into two categories for me with disarm mechanics in the game (more to come in a moment).
I now have two weapons, one is an altered weapon that's basic 4x. If I lose it, no big loss. I don't really have any attachment to it. The other is a 3x (+13) weapon that I can eblade with my wizard. This one has decent max mana boost and some extra mana regen. I purchased it cheap so if I lost it, big whoop, but I do enjoy it.
Current disarm mechanics, they are archaic. It is a brutal discomfort for my wizard. Creatures 10-20 levels under him can successfully disarm him even if a creature 20 levels under him needs a high endroll or open roll, but they can still do it. No class can guarantee 100% safety from disarm mechanics. You can be sprinting through rooms for whatever reason and as you go through a room with a spawned creature, you can get disarmed as soon as you enter a room should your luck be bad enough (has happened to me).
Years back if I had lost my weapon, getting back wasn't too much of an issue. I'd blast the creature with Telekinetic Disarm and I'd have the weapon back in my hands. This spell was removed and was supposed to move to a more mental magic circle (I'm guessing Savants) and replaced with Immolate. As a wizard, I lost my (nearly 100% success rate for me) spell to easily recover my weapon if I wasn't dead.
In my view, one of two things needs to happen with the game with disarm.
1) Item loss seems to be a long lost art form since the de-ICE (removal of dropping items when you died - unless you want to pay and play Platinum) and change over into GSIII (I don't recall exactly when droppage was removed, but I think it was mid/late 90s) and as things were cemented in with the change to GSIV. Disarm needs to be turned off/removed from creatures, along with a couple other weapon loss mechanics. People put a lot of time and effort and these days now, money, into their items. They have a strong sentimental attachment to their items and it would be devastating for them to lose their hard earned and worked on items. Since item loss has basically been removed from the game in all other manners (aside from someone simply misplacing their item when they put it away and they don't use MY - like the Raging Thrak tells us to) item loss is pretty much non-existent and the remainder of the game should be this way; which means disarm by creatures is removed and also taking of any weapons/shields from dead players (like Ithzir scouts do). Also, do not forget to remove Itchy Curse that also makes you drop your gear.
2) Item loss needs to be brought back. This means breakage and ease of acquiring quality weapons/shields/armor outside of huge money sinks such as DM or god auctions. 4x, 5x and 6x weapons/armor with decent padding/weighting needs to come around on easy for everyone to access merchants (like the Jug or Spitfire for example). Ease of enchanting times needs to be adjusted to allow faster replacement of higher end enchanted items. Prices for quality items needs to be in a realm that's obtainable by most people that play on a normal basis and not cost millions and millions of silver.
Seeing as we've been told that breakage isn't going to come back, then number 1 needs to be done.
If breakage and item loss isn't going to be a thing. Remove disarm. Just turn it off. If I have no chance to replace a unique weapon, even if it's not on the same level as the current one I have, then don't punish me with the archaic mechanics that so many players have little to no defense against unless you're post cap and can sink tons of TPs into corresponding CMANS to boost your defense against disarm.
-Drumpel
I have 1 really nice weapon I really liked using. It holds 40 charges of 510, refills 10 charges a day. It's a one of a kind (as far as I know) runestaff. It would suck to lose it to current disarm mechanics. Once I started to venture into hunting areas that had disarm mechanics, the weapon visited my locker and hasn't left since. It's been years (I don't level terribly fast, I'm in no rush, plus the breaks in play here and there) since I've used it and it sucks, but it falls into two categories for me with disarm mechanics in the game (more to come in a moment).
I now have two weapons, one is an altered weapon that's basic 4x. If I lose it, no big loss. I don't really have any attachment to it. The other is a 3x (+13) weapon that I can eblade with my wizard. This one has decent max mana boost and some extra mana regen. I purchased it cheap so if I lost it, big whoop, but I do enjoy it.
Current disarm mechanics, they are archaic. It is a brutal discomfort for my wizard. Creatures 10-20 levels under him can successfully disarm him even if a creature 20 levels under him needs a high endroll or open roll, but they can still do it. No class can guarantee 100% safety from disarm mechanics. You can be sprinting through rooms for whatever reason and as you go through a room with a spawned creature, you can get disarmed as soon as you enter a room should your luck be bad enough (has happened to me).
Years back if I had lost my weapon, getting back wasn't too much of an issue. I'd blast the creature with Telekinetic Disarm and I'd have the weapon back in my hands. This spell was removed and was supposed to move to a more mental magic circle (I'm guessing Savants) and replaced with Immolate. As a wizard, I lost my (nearly 100% success rate for me) spell to easily recover my weapon if I wasn't dead.
In my view, one of two things needs to happen with the game with disarm.
1) Item loss seems to be a long lost art form since the de-ICE (removal of dropping items when you died - unless you want to pay and play Platinum) and change over into GSIII (I don't recall exactly when droppage was removed, but I think it was mid/late 90s) and as things were cemented in with the change to GSIV. Disarm needs to be turned off/removed from creatures, along with a couple other weapon loss mechanics. People put a lot of time and effort and these days now, money, into their items. They have a strong sentimental attachment to their items and it would be devastating for them to lose their hard earned and worked on items. Since item loss has basically been removed from the game in all other manners (aside from someone simply misplacing their item when they put it away and they don't use MY - like the Raging Thrak tells us to) item loss is pretty much non-existent and the remainder of the game should be this way; which means disarm by creatures is removed and also taking of any weapons/shields from dead players (like Ithzir scouts do). Also, do not forget to remove Itchy Curse that also makes you drop your gear.
2) Item loss needs to be brought back. This means breakage and ease of acquiring quality weapons/shields/armor outside of huge money sinks such as DM or god auctions. 4x, 5x and 6x weapons/armor with decent padding/weighting needs to come around on easy for everyone to access merchants (like the Jug or Spitfire for example). Ease of enchanting times needs to be adjusted to allow faster replacement of higher end enchanted items. Prices for quality items needs to be in a realm that's obtainable by most people that play on a normal basis and not cost millions and millions of silver.
Seeing as we've been told that breakage isn't going to come back, then number 1 needs to be done.
If breakage and item loss isn't going to be a thing. Remove disarm. Just turn it off. If I have no chance to replace a unique weapon, even if it's not on the same level as the current one I have, then don't punish me with the archaic mechanics that so many players have little to no defense against unless you're post cap and can sink tons of TPs into corresponding CMANS to boost your defense against disarm.
-Drumpel
>Bards using Sonic Weapon Song/1012 can ignore Disarm the live long day... And if they know enough ranks in that list, it's a +35 nearly-weightless weapon with great flares.
Way to nit pick! Yeah!.... Clearly you know what I meant. Perhaps I can rephrase it just to appease you:
No class can guarantee 100% safety from disarm mechanics without using sonic weapons or perhaps a "special" items such as the tattoo weapons (though I'm not 100% sure how they function against disarm).
-Drumpel
Way to nit pick! Yeah!.... Clearly you know what I meant. Perhaps I can rephrase it just to appease you:
No class can guarantee 100% safety from disarm mechanics without using sonic weapons or perhaps a "special" items such as the tattoo weapons (though I'm not 100% sure how they function against disarm).
-Drumpel
>>Item loss needs to be brought back.
I think perhaps this should be added to thoughts you started about silver draining, Drumpel! You could extend your tax idea for this. ( http://forums.play.net/forums/19/213/2284/view/3726 ). Or, I can add it to my list. ( http://forums.play.net/forums/19/213/2284/view/3729 )
I think if I were to put it on my list, it be an extension of Simucoin for silver with the twist of a new Simucoin item - Janitorial Vault recovery. I'd justify it by saying we've gone from once in a lifetime to once a year. Might as well automate it and generate some revenue along the way! Rules could be simple - 100 coupon book for $$$$ (relatively cheap, volume here is the money maker). Then when you can't recover your item for some legitimate reason, a simple coupon resurrects it for you. And (while it's a good bit more expensive) you can use silver to do so as well.
Unshackle those runestaves! Unlimber those bows! Grab those vorpal swords of doom and head out into the lands, secure in the knowledge that the all-powerful Judger of Dead Weapons, The Janitor, will take offerings and resurrect, just as does Lorminstra. But with far more flair!
Doug
P.S. Yes, I know, not all item loss is governed by the janitor. Baby steps! And never underestimate the value of moving off dead center.
I think perhaps this should be added to thoughts you started about silver draining, Drumpel! You could extend your tax idea for this. ( http://forums.play.net/forums/19/213/2284/view/3726 ). Or, I can add it to my list. ( http://forums.play.net/forums/19/213/2284/view/3729 )
I think if I were to put it on my list, it be an extension of Simucoin for silver with the twist of a new Simucoin item - Janitorial Vault recovery. I'd justify it by saying we've gone from once in a lifetime to once a year. Might as well automate it and generate some revenue along the way! Rules could be simple - 100 coupon book for $$$$ (relatively cheap, volume here is the money maker). Then when you can't recover your item for some legitimate reason, a simple coupon resurrects it for you. And (while it's a good bit more expensive) you can use silver to do so as well.
Unshackle those runestaves! Unlimber those bows! Grab those vorpal swords of doom and head out into the lands, secure in the knowledge that the all-powerful Judger of Dead Weapons, The Janitor, will take offerings and resurrect, just as does Lorminstra. But with far more flair!
Doug
P.S. Yes, I know, not all item loss is governed by the janitor. Baby steps! And never underestimate the value of moving off dead center.
So please give me another method of obtaining the item back. Charge me a silver fine for the effort of a local bounty hunter to get it back. Charge me X% of the value. Make it cost bounty points. Add a simucoin item. Escalate the fine over time. Degrade the item until I use it enough to get its bonus back. Whatever. It is no to solution to say "we realize this frustrates our customers, but we won't change anything," especially when the item could be returned but just....won't. I would think the point of the disarm mechanic is the combat disadvantage, not the make-players-quit-gemstone mechanic. Having an "unspoken policy" of pseudo-replacement is only more frustrating, since had my internet dropped 6 weeks later, I would be over the arbitrary unofficial year limit.
1) Maybe add that cutover date to "premium start" (and for a non-Premium account, have it be the only line of information other than, "You don't have a Premium account.")?
.
We've talked about it before, but in-game 'insurance'. (Oh, look! Silver drain, as you pay the premiums!)
Take your beloved items to the Adventurer's Guild, do your <new registration verb> at the <new NPC> who provides that service (and pay him the new) <fee>.
It's now tagged, to you.
If the Janitor ever gets that item, it turns into an automatic "retrieve heirloom" task in that area, whose only stipulation is that it cannot be assigned to YOU.
When the item is found--since it's a PC's valuable item--a <new NPC> immediately retrieves it in the field, rather than leaving (your) item in someone else's hands. They are credited with completion, but still have to visit the Guild building to get the payoff.
An urchin notifies you when the item has been retrieved, and you can collect it from the NPC in the Guild.
Want to sign up for it again, pay the premium again. (Who is conveniently located exactly where you are getting your item back.... :)
.
We've talked about it before, but in-game 'insurance'. (Oh, look! Silver drain, as you pay the premiums!)
Take your beloved items to the Adventurer's Guild, do your <new registration verb> at the <new NPC> who provides that service (and pay him the new) <fee>.
It's now tagged, to you.
If the Janitor ever gets that item, it turns into an automatic "retrieve heirloom" task in that area, whose only stipulation is that it cannot be assigned to YOU.
When the item is found--since it's a PC's valuable item--a <new NPC> immediately retrieves it in the field, rather than leaving (your) item in someone else's hands. They are credited with completion, but still have to visit the Guild building to get the payoff.
An urchin notifies you when the item has been retrieved, and you can collect it from the NPC in the Guild.
Want to sign up for it again, pay the premium again. (Who is conveniently located exactly where you are getting your item back.... :)
| I would think the point of the disarm mechanic is the combat disadvantage, not the make-players-quit-gemstone mechanic. |
This is a valid and interesting point that deserves discussion.
What is the point of the disarm mechanic?
- Is it to prevent offensive capabilities?
- Is it to reduce defensive capabilities?
- Is it to cause the player to lose the weapon?
If the primary purpose is the combination of the first two, I think that the mechanic should be changed.
Instead of causing the weapon to fall to the ground, it could simply prevent attacking for a period of time, reduce or remove AS, or reduce parry DS. If the roll is high enough, it causes roundtime, it prevents attacks and removes all parry DS. If the roll is successful, but weak, it could cause roundtime, and reduce AS and parry DS.
If the primary purpose is to cause the player to lose the weapon, than the mechanic should be removed from the game completely, as it causes unnecessary grief in todays environment. I would also argue that it serves no purpose since it can be replaced by assisting. (At least 1 time)
At one time its intended purpose may have been to cause item loss, but that was when items could be quickly replaced. That's not the world we live in now when it takes 6 months to do a 7x enchant, and when people are paying hundreds of dollars to obtain items through events like Duskruin.
All it does is cause grief, so why does it remain in place as it currently functions?
I do not think that the disarm mechanic needs to disappear, I think the item loss aspect needs to disappear. Sanctum of Sands handled this beautifully. The major issue with the disarm mechanic is that you can lose your item to the void/janitor/etc...simply as a function of ghosting. You can be fully engaged in the game and coping with mechanics but then lose an item because of a router outage and THEN you take up GH/GM time trying to get that item back.
If you do not want players using valuable or high-end gear in a certain hunting area without a level of risk, there are other ways to implement that asides item loss. If I use a 10x vorpal blade, I get 10x the backlash from an environmental hazard, or whatever.
X
item loss needs to disappear.
at cap there are 2 ways to improve your character:
1. earn exp
2. improve your gear
number 2 is not very fun when a simple property of the internet (networks are unreliable) can cause you to lose an item you've been building for years, and given the longevity of this game it is inevitable that someone will legitimately bump up against whatever replacement policy exists.
I agree that SoS found a decent middle ground, and really I would rather see disarm/curse/whatever removed immediately from all creatures everywhere until a replacement rolls out. People get bored and quit because they cannot use their fancy items they've been building a character around for forever.
AIM: m444w
at cap there are 2 ways to improve your character:
1. earn exp
2. improve your gear
number 2 is not very fun when a simple property of the internet (networks are unreliable) can cause you to lose an item you've been building for years, and given the longevity of this game it is inevitable that someone will legitimately bump up against whatever replacement policy exists.
I agree that SoS found a decent middle ground, and really I would rather see disarm/curse/whatever removed immediately from all creatures everywhere until a replacement rolls out. People get bored and quit because they cannot use their fancy items they've been building a character around for forever.
AIM: m444w
Keeping in mind that it's been stated many times in the past that any abilities/spells available to players are also fair game for critters to have, I'm not in a huge rush to have disarm mechanics in it's various forms completely removed completely from critters (since it would likely lead to it being removed from players as well). Being able to disarm a creature can mean the difference between life and death (esp when it's a feras weapon).
That said, I do think the reliance on giving critters the ability to somehow disarm players to make hunting grounds more challenging DOES need to be addressed. In River's Rest, only two hunting areas above level 30 don't have something in it that has a way to make characters drop weapons and/or other items they're holding (critter maneuvers, CMAN DISARM, the itchy curse, and other critter abilities included). As I understand it, at/near cap is a similar situation, if not worse.
In a game that relies so heavily on the ability to keep, alter, and upgrade weapons/shields/etc for the life of your character (should one choose to) not just as an RP perk but what's obviously a significant source of revenue via account upgrades for prem points, special events, etc.... why on Earth or Elanthia would anyone want to force a player to have to choose between permanently lockering or inevitably loosing those very things?
Go ahead and have hunting grounds that force players to drop what their holding by whatever means for those that enjoy (or don't mind) the risks and drawbacks of them (sometimes I'm one of them), but there should be at least as many options for those that don't enjoy the risk (sometimes I'm one of these as well).
While we're on the subject of disarming, both the tendency of critters to pick up disarmed player weapons and HURL them into the shadows AND the janitor picking up weapons that are in the shadows the moment a player leaves the room needs to change. Saying it's not fun to lose a weapon because it was hurled into the shadows and you chased the critter into another room thinking it still had it is a massive understatement.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
That said, I do think the reliance on giving critters the ability to somehow disarm players to make hunting grounds more challenging DOES need to be addressed. In River's Rest, only two hunting areas above level 30 don't have something in it that has a way to make characters drop weapons and/or other items they're holding (critter maneuvers, CMAN DISARM, the itchy curse, and other critter abilities included). As I understand it, at/near cap is a similar situation, if not worse.
In a game that relies so heavily on the ability to keep, alter, and upgrade weapons/shields/etc for the life of your character (should one choose to) not just as an RP perk but what's obviously a significant source of revenue via account upgrades for prem points, special events, etc.... why on Earth or Elanthia would anyone want to force a player to have to choose between permanently lockering or inevitably loosing those very things?
Go ahead and have hunting grounds that force players to drop what their holding by whatever means for those that enjoy (or don't mind) the risks and drawbacks of them (sometimes I'm one of them), but there should be at least as many options for those that don't enjoy the risk (sometimes I'm one of these as well).
While we're on the subject of disarming, both the tendency of critters to pick up disarmed player weapons and HURL them into the shadows AND the janitor picking up weapons that are in the shadows the moment a player leaves the room needs to change. Saying it's not fun to lose a weapon because it was hurled into the shadows and you chased the critter into another room thinking it still had it is a massive understatement.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Item loss via disarm seems really bad in the current day when it isn't just time that is at stake. With certificates from DR, there is that direct route of monetary investment. Removing random bad luck from undoing that would seem beneficial to everyone: no leaving, no bad feelings, no loss of revenue. Some of the ways even would make more sense with a change. If you are itchy cursed, why do you not do what you are likely most accustomed to and stow your things?
_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.
_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.
>> Keeping in mind that it's been stated many times in the past that any abilities/spells available to players are also fair game for critters to have, I'm not in a huge rush to have disarm mechanics in it's various forms completely removed completely from critters (since it would likely lead to it being removed from players as well). Being able to disarm a creature can mean the difference between life and death (esp when it's a feras weapon).
If creatures regularly spawned with 10x weapons, with rotflares, banes, extreme sighting/weighting, etc. I imagine people would be all for both having equal access. However since the vast majority of creatures spawn otherwise, it seems imbalanced.
If creatures regularly spawned with 10x weapons, with rotflares, banes, extreme sighting/weighting, etc. I imagine people would be all for both having equal access. However since the vast majority of creatures spawn otherwise, it seems imbalanced.
The "at feet" item slot that DragonRealms uses was mentioned a couple weeks ago in another thread. Disarm could just move a weapon from one slot to another, and it'd remain on the character as far as the game was concerned. I suppose it wouldn't be a complete solution, but it's something to consider.
>If you are itchy cursed, why do you not do what you are likely most accustomed to and stow your things?
Not something you can do should you be cast upon while you're stuck in RT or stunned. Vesperti suck with casting curse spells. The two times in recent memory I've been tagged with itchy curse was when an attack failed and I got tagged by one that had their AS skyrocket to 300ish and with a flail - 5 round stun. Not a big deal for the most part, until the damn thing cast itchy curse on me right before the stun wore off. Stuck in a stun and I drop my weapon/shield. The bat only picked up my weapon thankfully. I was able to grab my shield and wear it quickly between itches....then it turned into a an irritating game of cat and mouse (I was the mouse, trying to keep hidden while I kept the bat in view so I didn't lose my weapon he was running around with). After almost a minute, the itchy curse finally wore off - a minute or two of not being able hold a shield or weapon, plus trying to keep alive and keep an eye on the weapon the bat had, not to mention a second bat joined in on the fun....it was horribly painful. Once the curse was gone I pulled out my second weapon and cleaved the arm right off the bat to get my initial weapon back.
Any game mechanic that forces you to drop your weapon/shield needs to be removed or re-worked so you don't actually drop your items. If breakage isn't part of the game and items can't be easily replaced with ones of similar power at a fair cost, then item loss needs to be addressed with the current mechanics.
-Drumpel
Not something you can do should you be cast upon while you're stuck in RT or stunned. Vesperti suck with casting curse spells. The two times in recent memory I've been tagged with itchy curse was when an attack failed and I got tagged by one that had their AS skyrocket to 300ish and with a flail - 5 round stun. Not a big deal for the most part, until the damn thing cast itchy curse on me right before the stun wore off. Stuck in a stun and I drop my weapon/shield. The bat only picked up my weapon thankfully. I was able to grab my shield and wear it quickly between itches....then it turned into a an irritating game of cat and mouse (I was the mouse, trying to keep hidden while I kept the bat in view so I didn't lose my weapon he was running around with). After almost a minute, the itchy curse finally wore off - a minute or two of not being able hold a shield or weapon, plus trying to keep alive and keep an eye on the weapon the bat had, not to mention a second bat joined in on the fun....it was horribly painful. Once the curse was gone I pulled out my second weapon and cleaved the arm right off the bat to get my initial weapon back.
Any game mechanic that forces you to drop your weapon/shield needs to be removed or re-worked so you don't actually drop your items. If breakage isn't part of the game and items can't be easily replaced with ones of similar power at a fair cost, then item loss needs to be addressed with the current mechanics.
-Drumpel
>>The "at feet" item slot that DragonRealms uses was mentioned a couple weeks ago in another thread. Disarm could just move a weapon from one slot to another, and it'd remain on the character as far as the game was concerned. I suppose it wouldn't be a complete solution, but it's something to consider.
DR has more item loss than GS.
Wyrom, PM
DR has more item loss than GS.
Wyrom, PM
>>The "at feet" item slot that DragonRealms uses was mentioned a couple weeks ago in another thread. Disarm could just move a weapon from one slot to another, and it'd remain on the character as far as the game was concerned. I suppose it wouldn't be a complete solution, but it's something to consider.
>
>DR has more item loss than GS.
I mean the "at feet" concept could be used to address this issue -- not the same implementation, but something similar. I think it'd be interesting to see how many players would be willing to accept a form of damage/repair (minus catastrophic breakage, for example) in exchange for the elimination of item loss.
>
>DR has more item loss than GS.
I mean the "at feet" concept could be used to address this issue -- not the same implementation, but something similar. I think it'd be interesting to see how many players would be willing to accept a form of damage/repair (minus catastrophic breakage, for example) in exchange for the elimination of item loss.
I think the point was to have items at the feet of the character (but since it's an inventory slot, it's still notionally 'on' the character... and creatures can't pick it up).
Won't help someone who's Berserk and runs to another room, but not everything is a perfect solution.
.
In-game recovery, for a cost of in-game currency (paying the Guild to hire out the fetching back) and in-game in-convenience (the time spent without it)... Better over all.
Won't help someone who's Berserk and runs to another room, but not everything is a perfect solution.
.
In-game recovery, for a cost of in-game currency (paying the Guild to hire out the fetching back) and in-game in-convenience (the time spent without it)... Better over all.
| I think the point was to have items at the feet of the character (but since it's an inventory slot, it's still notionally 'on' the character... and creatures can't pick it up). |
| Won't help someone who's Berserk and runs to another room, but not everything is a perfect solution. |
If it's possible, I think it's a workable solution to the item loss associated with disarm issues. It still drops the item from a players hand, but it doesn't cause all the grief associated with it's loss.
I lived with and without the "at feet" slot in DR. It makes sense for some things especially crafting, but wow, I'd NEVER want my weapon to be at my feet, tangling me up from moving when it is already an emergency.
Disarming is really more than inconvenient. In a game where a 'good' weapon takes YEARS and a bazillion silvers to create, it is especially bad.
You lose your weapon in DR when you die, along with a shield if you are holding one. However, good weapons in DR are a fraction of the time and comparable cost as these once in a life-time pieces of gear we work up to in GS.
All that said, I don't think there's common ground here.
Insurance, on the other hand, has always been a great racket...
---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Disarming is really more than inconvenient. In a game where a 'good' weapon takes YEARS and a bazillion silvers to create, it is especially bad.
You lose your weapon in DR when you die, along with a shield if you are holding one. However, good weapons in DR are a fraction of the time and comparable cost as these once in a life-time pieces of gear we work up to in GS.
All that said, I don't think there's common ground here.
Insurance, on the other hand, has always been a great racket...
---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
>>Any game mechanic that forces you to drop your weapon/shield needs to be removed or re-worked so you don't actually drop your items. If breakage isn't part of the game and items can't be easily replaced with ones of similar power at a fair cost, then item loss needs to be addressed with the current mechanics.
Definitely this. And in case my idea wasn't clear, it was to "drop" your weapon into the stow set location instead of dropping it on the ground., at least with itchy curse. Something similar could be done with all the disarm options.
_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.
Definitely this. And in case my idea wasn't clear, it was to "drop" your weapon into the stow set location instead of dropping it on the ground., at least with itchy curse. Something similar could be done with all the disarm options.
_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.
| Definitely this. And in case my idea wasn't clear, it was to "drop" your weapon into the stow set location instead of dropping it on the ground., at least with itchy curse. Something similar could be done with all the disarm options. |
I like the idea for itchy curse, it makes sense that you would start to feel itchy, so you put whatever is in your hands away to scratch yourself. It doesn't make sense for disarm to do that though.
I think the "at feet" solution would be an elegant way to "fix" the disarm mechanic. It still does what I believe is the primary intention, to make you lose AS/DS and be unable to attack or defend, and at the same time fixes the major flaw in the mechanic, which is causing you to possibly lose tens or hundreds of millions in value.
To comment on the insurance idea, I don't hate it, but it doesn't really fix anything in my opinion and possibly leads to a different problem depending upon how it functions. What happens when you're disarmed and it's voided? Or when you're itchy cursed, killed, decay, and another player comes along and snatches your weapon or shield?
I'd like to see any updates prevent loss of the weapon or shield from the system, as well as other players. If the items go into the "at feet" slot, instead of on the ground, it resolves a lot of issues. Movement could also be limited with items in the "at feet" slot, so it actually becomes even more dangerous as you're unable to run away.
>> That's a Platinum-only Perk.
Yes but why is that Wyrom? What is it about the current state of Disarm (specifically item loss) that the dev team finds desirable in Prime such that they don't want to address it in this way (or some other way) at this time?
-- Robert
* Wyrom was just vaporized!
Yes but why is that Wyrom? What is it about the current state of Disarm (specifically item loss) that the dev team finds desirable in Prime such that they don't want to address it in this way (or some other way) at this time?
-- Robert
* Wyrom was just vaporized!
As stated, disarm (and similar item loss mechanics) is a system that is under review. It's not a small project by any means.
Platinum has this as a perk due to the smaller community as well as the higher subscription perk. The points have to be on your account and it's not cheap for combat items.
Wyrom, PM
Platinum has this as a perk due to the smaller community as well as the higher subscription perk. The points have to be on your account and it's not cheap for combat items.
Wyrom, PM
Why don't you listen to your consumer base rather than giving a canned response?
People DO NOT like this mechanic and saying it is under review with Simu's HORRIBLE reputation of anything timely is basically giving the middle finger. It's a stupid mechanic. People don't like it.
Be PROACTIVE for once. Geez.
People DO NOT like this mechanic and saying it is under review with Simu's HORRIBLE reputation of anything timely is basically giving the middle finger. It's a stupid mechanic. People don't like it.
Be PROACTIVE for once. Geez.
For clarity...
I LIKE the Disarm mechanic. The ONLY aspect of the disarm mechanic that I don't like is that it can result in permanent item loss (which in many respects is more of an issue with our Janitor system than with Disarm).
I don't mind having a weapon disarmed and lost for a period (because someone else picked it up or because the system ate it) as long as there is some way to recover the item with enough time and effort put into the recovery.
I greatly dislike item recovery being tied to a somewhat nebulous item recovery policy that feels like playing 'let's see how the GM feels about returning my item today'. This is frustrating as a player and likely unfair to the GM who, most likely, doesn't have any actual say in the matter but is following some policy or direction from above.
If you don't want to change the DISARM system, which otherwise works just fine then, at least update the policy to be clear for everyone (players and GMs alike) and setup in such a way that players know they can recover their item even if there is a growing silver or effort cost associated with multiple occurrences within a short time frame.
I suspect the best result would require some changes to DISARM and other systems such that items are flagged or retained differently when lost to the janitor as well as a change in policy such that GMs wouldn't need to be involved for each and every occurrence of item loss.
-- Robert
* Wyrom was just vaporized!
I LIKE the Disarm mechanic. The ONLY aspect of the disarm mechanic that I don't like is that it can result in permanent item loss (which in many respects is more of an issue with our Janitor system than with Disarm).
I don't mind having a weapon disarmed and lost for a period (because someone else picked it up or because the system ate it) as long as there is some way to recover the item with enough time and effort put into the recovery.
I greatly dislike item recovery being tied to a somewhat nebulous item recovery policy that feels like playing 'let's see how the GM feels about returning my item today'. This is frustrating as a player and likely unfair to the GM who, most likely, doesn't have any actual say in the matter but is following some policy or direction from above.
If you don't want to change the DISARM system, which otherwise works just fine then, at least update the policy to be clear for everyone (players and GMs alike) and setup in such a way that players know they can recover their item even if there is a growing silver or effort cost associated with multiple occurrences within a short time frame.
I suspect the best result would require some changes to DISARM and other systems such that items are flagged or retained differently when lost to the janitor as well as a change in policy such that GMs wouldn't need to be involved for each and every occurrence of item loss.
-- Robert
* Wyrom was just vaporized!
Not to discourage any discussion on this topic, but Wyrom already stated Disarm (and similar mechanics) will be changing. We already have the design planned out. Permanent item loss isn't a good game implementation and we can still achieve a incapacitating effect without it.
GameMaster Estild
GameMaster Estild
>>Not to discourage any discussion on this topic, but Wyrom already stated Disarm (and similar mechanics) will be changing. We already have the design planned out. Permanent item loss isn't a good game implementation and we can still achieve a incapacitating effect without it.
Looking forward to it. I always saw using the bounty system as a good solution to the item loss. I could even see having to pay the advguild whatever sum in order for them to send adventurer's out to retrieve weapon in the first place.
<We already have the design planned out.
Can you share the design with us? I think customer feedback is fairly important on big changes such as this.
http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
Can you share the design with us? I think customer feedback is fairly important on big changes such as this.
http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
Several people in this thread have identified the key point: the intent of DISARM is combat disadvantage, not permanent item loss. The same thing applies to several related abilities like Vibration Chant, waern bites, and the like. The permanent item loss potential of those abilities is/was only incidental to their main purpose. Item loss was a lot more common with droppage on death, gear leave-behind on decay, and breakage. Whether or not permanent item loss is a good idea in today's game is now beside the point -- since it isn't implemented anywhere else anymore, then it should be removed from these abilities as well.
Therefore, the design goal is simple: retain the combat effect while removing the potential for permanent item loss. Its actual implementation needs to be a balancing act between "retain the exact same combat effect" and "avoid the nightmarish complexities that an exact duplicate would entail". And that portion is a backend matter for us to worry about, plus the actual recovery mechanism.
And finally, I'll note that Wyrom isn't just giving a canned response. I was the one who made the original proposal on how to rewrite disarm, and laid claim to the work. That was quite a while back now and the delay can be laid at my feet if you want to blame somebody.
Therefore, the design goal is simple: retain the combat effect while removing the potential for permanent item loss. Its actual implementation needs to be a balancing act between "retain the exact same combat effect" and "avoid the nightmarish complexities that an exact duplicate would entail". And that portion is a backend matter for us to worry about, plus the actual recovery mechanism.
And finally, I'll note that Wyrom isn't just giving a canned response. I was the one who made the original proposal on how to rewrite disarm, and laid claim to the work. That was quite a while back now and the delay can be laid at my feet if you want to blame somebody.
"Its actual implementation needs to be a balancing act between "retain the exact same combat effect" and "avoid the nightmarish complexities that an exact duplicate would entail". And that portion is a backend matter for us to worry about, plus the actual recovery mechanism." -- Finros
Doesn't VibChant/1002 already have a "do NOT destroy the item if <some situation--like 'magic metal'--exists>", and then if the spell is successful but the item remains, it has a "do NOT count this item in combat" effect on it?
Doesn't VibChant/1002 already have a "do NOT destroy the item if <some situation--like 'magic metal'--exists>", and then if the spell is successful but the item remains, it has a "do NOT count this item in combat" effect on it?
| Several people in this thread have identified the key point: the intent of DISARM is combat disadvantage, not permanent item loss. The same thing applies to several related abilities like Vibration Chant, waern bites, and the like. The permanent item loss potential of those abilities is/was only incidental to their main purpose. Item loss was a lot more common with droppage on death, gear leave-behind on decay, and breakage. Whether or not permanent item loss is a good idea in today's game is now beside the point -- since it isn't implemented anywhere else anymore, then it should be removed from these abilities as well. |
This is good news!
| And that portion is a backend matter for us to worry about, plus the actual recovery mechanism. |
This is the only comment that concerns me. If you could elaborate further it would be appreciated. It makes it sound as if loss is still going to be possible. There were several good suggestions for ways to handle the "drop" potion of disarm. If the weapon/shield has to be removed from the characters hands, I particularly liked the goes into the "at feet" worn location and prevents movement suggestion.
>This is the only comment that concerns me. If you could elaborate further it would be appreciated. It makes it sound as if loss is still going to be possible. There were several good suggestions for ways to handle the "drop" potion of disarm. If the weapon/shield has to be removed from the characters hands, I particularly liked the goes into the "at feet" worn location and prevents movement suggestion.
As I said, the chance for permanent item loss will be removed. Loss, in the sense that the equipment will leave your hands, is still going to be very much a part of the disarm ability (or it wouldn't be disarm anymore). You'll simply be able to get it back in a timely fashion by your own efforts, even if you die the second after it leaves your hands. As for the implementation mechanism, that's for us to handle. I never mind player speculation about that sort of thing, but a competent coding GM is always going to have much more knowledge of what needs to be handled.
As I said, the chance for permanent item loss will be removed. Loss, in the sense that the equipment will leave your hands, is still going to be very much a part of the disarm ability (or it wouldn't be disarm anymore). You'll simply be able to get it back in a timely fashion by your own efforts, even if you die the second after it leaves your hands. As for the implementation mechanism, that's for us to handle. I never mind player speculation about that sort of thing, but a competent coding GM is always going to have much more knowledge of what needs to be handled.
