>>Automation seems to become a way of normal gameplay now. I think the locksmith update is a huge boon for instances like Platinum and Shattered where automation is needed due to a lack of player services.
In that case, can we start requesting NPC Bards to finally make an appearance then so nobody has to wait for loresinging? I assume NPC Clerics will be given the option to charge for a full chrism raise as well? I'd like to request that NPC Weaponsmiths offer the option of having perfectly forged weapons because waiting for a player to craft one and hope for the luck of the draw can take hours, if not days. I'm sure nobody would object to these services being made available 24/7 to help alleviate the need to interact with other players or cause needless waiting.
The L behind the Laphrael
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a shoe.
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Laphrael
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/26/2011 08:04 PM CDT
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/26/2011 09:33 PM CDT
>Automation seems to become a way of normal gameplay now. I think the locksmith update is a huge boon for instances like Platinum and Shattered where automation is needed due to a lack of player services.
Wyrom
I don't care about either of these instances.
However, if we are basing updates on how it helps outside of Prime I expect Paladins, in every instance, to be able to use Chrisms when they raise due to the lack of clerics in Platinum and Shattered.
>In that case, can we start requesting NPC Bards to finally make an appearance then so nobody has to wait for loresinging? I assume NPC Clerics will be given the option to charge for a full chrism raise as well? I'd like to request that NPC Weaponsmiths offer the option of having perfectly forged weapons because waiting for a player to craft one and hope for the luck of the draw can take hours, if not days. I'm sure nobody would object to these services being made available 24/7 to help alleviate the need to interact with other players or cause needless waiting.
The L behind the Laphrael
I'd also suggest an NPC warrior available to assess any weapon, as well as add any ARMOR resistance. Additionally, an NPC Paladin to add Fluidity, an NPC Cleric with Kaedra-like bread, etc etc etc.
Why bother seeking out players and wasting EXP absorption time when an NPC can do it faster and with zero time wasted?
-farmer
Wyrom
I don't care about either of these instances.
However, if we are basing updates on how it helps outside of Prime I expect Paladins, in every instance, to be able to use Chrisms when they raise due to the lack of clerics in Platinum and Shattered.
>In that case, can we start requesting NPC Bards to finally make an appearance then so nobody has to wait for loresinging? I assume NPC Clerics will be given the option to charge for a full chrism raise as well? I'd like to request that NPC Weaponsmiths offer the option of having perfectly forged weapons because waiting for a player to craft one and hope for the luck of the draw can take hours, if not days. I'm sure nobody would object to these services being made available 24/7 to help alleviate the need to interact with other players or cause needless waiting.
The L behind the Laphrael
I'd also suggest an NPC warrior available to assess any weapon, as well as add any ARMOR resistance. Additionally, an NPC Paladin to add Fluidity, an NPC Cleric with Kaedra-like bread, etc etc etc.
Why bother seeking out players and wasting EXP absorption time when an NPC can do it faster and with zero time wasted?
-farmer
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/26/2011 10:09 PM CDT
>As a GM, I notice lots of characters seem to be in a rush nowadays. Mostly everyone running around, no sitting idle, min/maxing their time to get best exp absorption. If they aren't sitting on a super node, it's not time well spent. It's troubling even from a GM perspective, because when we do try to interact with you, it quickly turns into an AFK script check.
>Automation seems to become a way of normal gameplay now. I think the locksmith update is a huge boon for instances like Platinum and Shattered where automation is needed due to a lack of player services.
What it feels like is being said here is, "People use Genie in DR and Lich in GS, so I'm going to use Plat and Shattered as a justification to not push for Prime changes to encourage player locksmith services even though they're comparatively minor instances."
I think any time you can encourage player interaction system changes are a good choice. I'd suggest an elimination of auto pickers in Prime (and you could leave Shattered and Plat alone if you really didn't want the extra revenue). I know this'd encourage players to purchase more Rogues, but this'd generate revenue through more account purchases and the new higher transfer fees.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/26/2011 10:59 PM CDT
I love all the feedback I've heard so far but let's try and keep the conversation polite, at the very least. With that said, I'm not going to promise anything but I can tell you that the player lockpicking issue is at the forefront of my mind right now. We'll see what happens.
Gamemaster Konacon
Squares Team
Gamemaster Konacon
Squares Team
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/26/2011 10:59 PM CDT
My post really wasn't aimed to why these changes were made. My apologizes, as it appears that is how it was read. My post was aimed at the majority of players using automated services. Players are using these services. Maybe not the small minority posting in this thread. They were being used abundantly before these changes even went live.
____
~Wyrom, ASGM
Host Manager
GameMaster Trainer
Platinum Lackey
Honorary QCer
>>Glitch uncertainly says, "I need pictures for this."
____
~Wyrom, ASGM
Host Manager
GameMaster Trainer
Platinum Lackey
Honorary QCer
>>Glitch uncertainly says, "I need pictures for this."
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 10:45 AM CDT
<< With that said, I'm not going to promise anything but I can tell you that the player lockpicking issue is at the forefront of my mind right now. >>
While you're thinking about boxes and locks, can you also consider why a channeled phase (704) spell will not work on locked boxes except those from very low level critters?
While you're thinking about boxes and locks, can you also consider why a channeled phase (704) spell will not work on locked boxes except those from very low level critters?
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 11:14 AM CDT
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 01:13 PM CDT
The population is too spread out and we don't have a large enough player base to support PC locksmithing. It lost critical mass somewhere around 500-600 online players. We barely have enough empaths (ever tried getting healed in Solhaven or Vaalor?) and there are many more empaths than rogues. The NPC locksmith should be improved as it reflects a reality that doesn't exist anymore (when the only time you had to use one was late at night, now it's usually the only option).
Drew/Chiv
Proud inventor of the Droit ballista and the Droitapult.
Invasion canary in the coal mine.
Drew/Chiv
Proud inventor of the Droit ballista and the Droitapult.
Invasion canary in the coal mine.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 01:18 PM CDT
<The population is too spread out and we don't have a large enough player base to support PC locksmithing. It lost critical mass somewhere around 500-600 online players. We barely have enough empaths (ever tried getting healed in Solhaven or Vaalor?) and there are many more empaths than rogues. The NPC locksmith should be improved as it reflects a reality that doesn't exist anymore (when the only time you had to use one was late at night, now it's usually the only option).
You have a point here, but what happens to the rogues who are trying to finish their guild skills? If the NPC locksmiths become the easier solution then something has to be changed somehow for lfm reps. Not everyone has a bevy of friends just waiting to save them boxes so they can master.
I'd be interested to see how many rogue guild masters have achieved that status in the past year.
You have a point here, but what happens to the rogues who are trying to finish their guild skills? If the NPC locksmiths become the easier solution then something has to be changed somehow for lfm reps. Not everyone has a bevy of friends just waiting to save them boxes so they can master.
I'd be interested to see how many rogue guild masters have achieved that status in the past year.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 01:38 PM CDT
>>You have a point here, but what happens to the rogues who are trying to finish their guild skills?
Advertise free picking. Will pick, no tips accepted or desired! I'll come to you! Etc.
I used to love picking locks but I've come to realize that the old rogue companionship isn't what it used to be. I still think the issue is the time involved in the process. Every step has a time component and if you miss an attempt it is worse. Another interesting alternative would be to add picking objects, including boxes, an adventurer guild bounty. This sort of thing could influence pickers to pick instead of hunt. The specific reason being that burst to saturated you can get from AdG bounty completion. You can't get that healing or picking, as I recall.
The playing field needs to be evened. Right now picking is the hardest way to earn exp and almost as dangerous as hunting is. I suggest an serious reduction in RT, an exp boost on all steps of the picking process and the AdG addition.
~Galenok
Advertise free picking. Will pick, no tips accepted or desired! I'll come to you! Etc.
I used to love picking locks but I've come to realize that the old rogue companionship isn't what it used to be. I still think the issue is the time involved in the process. Every step has a time component and if you miss an attempt it is worse. Another interesting alternative would be to add picking objects, including boxes, an adventurer guild bounty. This sort of thing could influence pickers to pick instead of hunt. The specific reason being that burst to saturated you can get from AdG bounty completion. You can't get that healing or picking, as I recall.
The playing field needs to be evened. Right now picking is the hardest way to earn exp and almost as dangerous as hunting is. I suggest an serious reduction in RT, an exp boost on all steps of the picking process and the AdG addition.
~Galenok
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 02:22 PM CDT
I tend to think its not so much the total number of players as the number of new players. When I operated a public service (as opposed to maybe opening a few boxes while resting between hunts) it was a pretty high proportion of kobold and kappa boxes in the East Tower, or skeleton and ghoul boxes in the crypt. It was mostly modest level smiths dealing with low level boxes. Its not that the number of players in game has declined, its more that the number of kobold hunters has completely collapsed. Those level 1-5 hunting grounds that provided a large amount of the boxes for the East Tower smiths are now completely deserted.
I think its the "Smith to my Thraks table for 20 roa'ters" opportunities that the NPC is responsible for killing rather than the East Tower work.
I think its the "Smith to my Thraks table for 20 roa'ters" opportunities that the NPC is responsible for killing rather than the East Tower work.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 04:13 PM CDT
To avoid sounding overly combative, here's a few suggestions:
Maybe one alternative worth looking into is the dreaded Trap/Lock Review and finding a way to reduce the pick/disarm formulae to work where 2x'ing in each skill with self-cast 403/404 will cover 99.9% of all locks and traps, and then adjust rogues down to only being able to 2x and everyone else down to 1x. Freeing up those 808/808 TPs would be very useful to those few of us who actually enjoy picking for ourselves and for others but wouldn't mind being able to hunt on par with everyone else.
Or allow LFM Masters to do picking contest reps again with live traps with XP gain. "Master Footpad Reilly says, "You think you're hot stuff, huh? How about a little challenge, only this time with live ammunition, and we'll see who's the best." XP gain, silver prizes awarded at benchmark victories, notoriety in the guild similar to the Sunfist boards.
Or provide an AdvGuild style task system through the NPC Locksmith where he asks you to help pick up the slack. "I need you to pick 12 boxes from Illoke Jarls so I can get caught up with these lazy louts up front that can't tell a lockpick from a toothpick." No loot gained, just XP and silver payment.
The L behind the Laphrael
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a shoe.
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Laphrael
Maybe one alternative worth looking into is the dreaded Trap/Lock Review and finding a way to reduce the pick/disarm formulae to work where 2x'ing in each skill with self-cast 403/404 will cover 99.9% of all locks and traps, and then adjust rogues down to only being able to 2x and everyone else down to 1x. Freeing up those 808/808 TPs would be very useful to those few of us who actually enjoy picking for ourselves and for others but wouldn't mind being able to hunt on par with everyone else.
Or allow LFM Masters to do picking contest reps again with live traps with XP gain. "Master Footpad Reilly says, "You think you're hot stuff, huh? How about a little challenge, only this time with live ammunition, and we'll see who's the best." XP gain, silver prizes awarded at benchmark victories, notoriety in the guild similar to the Sunfist boards.
Or provide an AdvGuild style task system through the NPC Locksmith where he asks you to help pick up the slack. "I need you to pick 12 boxes from Illoke Jarls so I can get caught up with these lazy louts up front that can't tell a lockpick from a toothpick." No loot gained, just XP and silver payment.
The L behind the Laphrael
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a shoe.
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Laphrael
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 05:26 PM CDT
>I'm not going to promise anything but I can tell you that the player lockpicking issue is at the forefront of my mind right now. We'll see what happens.
Gamemaster Konacon
In what sense? Would you be interested in encouraging Rogue locksmith work for other players? Or taking it in another direction entirely? Perhaps with Bounty tasks or other exp/wealth gaining systems that don't require other players?
>My post really wasn't aimed to why these changes were made. My apologizes, as it appears that is how it was read. My post was aimed at the majority of players using automated services. Players are using these services. Maybe not the small minority posting in this thread. They were being used abundantly before these changes even went live.
Wyrom
These changes only encourage the increased use of automation and decreases the socialization/RP of what locksmithing could be. Is this a trend that will continue?
>Man, it sure is nice that staff is being so polite and apologetic, despite the overly combative tone in a couple recent player posts.
Mandy
It could be worse. The player posts could simply be comprised of backhanded insults and overt fawning...
-farmer
Gamemaster Konacon
In what sense? Would you be interested in encouraging Rogue locksmith work for other players? Or taking it in another direction entirely? Perhaps with Bounty tasks or other exp/wealth gaining systems that don't require other players?
>My post really wasn't aimed to why these changes were made. My apologizes, as it appears that is how it was read. My post was aimed at the majority of players using automated services. Players are using these services. Maybe not the small minority posting in this thread. They were being used abundantly before these changes even went live.
Wyrom
These changes only encourage the increased use of automation and decreases the socialization/RP of what locksmithing could be. Is this a trend that will continue?
>Man, it sure is nice that staff is being so polite and apologetic, despite the overly combative tone in a couple recent player posts.
Mandy
It could be worse. The player posts could simply be comprised of backhanded insults and overt fawning...
-farmer
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/27/2011 06:30 PM CDT
Those are all really cool ideas, Laphrael. I especially liked the ADVG style tasks through the NPC locksmith. It's such a huge TP sink to really train in locksmithing, more ways to earn XP and coins using those skills would be great.
Well, I have go find someone else to fawn over now! <3
Mandy
Well, I have go find someone else to fawn over now! <3
Mandy
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/28/2011 12:38 AM CDT
I generally use PC pickers if available (because boxes cost so much to pick at the NPC picker), but I don't think this update removed a disincentive for people to use the NPC picker. You didn't run into lines that often. The only problem is that they're not often available anymore.
The only time I prefer using the NPC picker is if I'm pressed for time...reducing the time to disarm/pick for PC pickers would help alleviate that.
Rishi
- Player of Kembal
Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."
The only time I prefer using the NPC picker is if I'm pressed for time...reducing the time to disarm/pick for PC pickers would help alleviate that.
Rishi
- Player of Kembal
Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/28/2011 11:24 AM CDT
>In what sense? Would you be interested in encouraging Rogue locksmith work for other players? Or taking it in another direction entirely? Perhaps with Bounty tasks or other exp/wealth gaining systems that don't require other players?
Right now my focus is working on ways to more strongly increase and/or encourage interaction between players for locksmithing.
>These changes only encourage the increased use of automation and decreases the socialization/RP of what locksmithing could be. Is this a trend that will continue?
Another way to look at it is that the old counter method was a system that was causing players pain and I saw a way to fix it, so I did. As to your question, the short answer is no.
The long answer is that the NPC locksmith is a good system to have for when there is nobody around to pick your boxes. There are a lot of ways to encourage players to use PC locksmiths over the NPC locksmith, and I'm going to see what I can do to help that. To demonstrate the point (Note: These are ONLY examples and not any indication of changes that will be implemented or the direction I plan to go with this), if the NPC locksmith was free and instant there would be absolutely no reason to bring your box to a PC other than RP. On the other hand, if the NPC locksmith charged 50k per box and put you in 60 seconds of RT each time you used it, nobody would use the NPC locksmiths. They're both very simple and extreme examples, but they make the point that there is likely a happy medium somewhere... It just has to be found.
A last note to put in place here is that I don't speak for anyone other than myself, and I certainly am not in a position to promise anything. I'm putting my thoughts out here because I love the conversation going on, and I want to encourage it.
Gamemaster Konacon
Squares Team
Right now my focus is working on ways to more strongly increase and/or encourage interaction between players for locksmithing.
>These changes only encourage the increased use of automation and decreases the socialization/RP of what locksmithing could be. Is this a trend that will continue?
Another way to look at it is that the old counter method was a system that was causing players pain and I saw a way to fix it, so I did. As to your question, the short answer is no.
The long answer is that the NPC locksmith is a good system to have for when there is nobody around to pick your boxes. There are a lot of ways to encourage players to use PC locksmiths over the NPC locksmith, and I'm going to see what I can do to help that. To demonstrate the point (Note: These are ONLY examples and not any indication of changes that will be implemented or the direction I plan to go with this), if the NPC locksmith was free and instant there would be absolutely no reason to bring your box to a PC other than RP. On the other hand, if the NPC locksmith charged 50k per box and put you in 60 seconds of RT each time you used it, nobody would use the NPC locksmiths. They're both very simple and extreme examples, but they make the point that there is likely a happy medium somewhere... It just has to be found.
A last note to put in place here is that I don't speak for anyone other than myself, and I certainly am not in a position to promise anything. I'm putting my thoughts out here because I love the conversation going on, and I want to encourage it.
Gamemaster Konacon
Squares Team
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/28/2011 01:04 PM CDT
I'm curious to see how often the NPC locksmith is used in prime. I'm also wondering why people would use it over finding a locksmith. Is it simply a matter of saving time or are they not able to find locksmiths to pick their boxes?
I like picking locks for people, but it's difficult to want sit around the tower when you don't really get customers. I'm wondering which affects this more: people who are using the npc locksmith instead or people who are using secondary accounts or friends vs public pickers. Which do y'all think affects the lack of customers for public pickers more?
- Kevin, player of gyp
I like picking locks for people, but it's difficult to want sit around the tower when you don't really get customers. I'm wondering which affects this more: people who are using the npc locksmith instead or people who are using secondary accounts or friends vs public pickers. Which do y'all think affects the lack of customers for public pickers more?
- Kevin, player of gyp
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/28/2011 05:29 PM CDT
The NPC comes out ahead on everything except price.
Its fast.
Its predictable.
Its safe.
It needs to stay fast. There is no point forcing a player to interact with nobody for 5 minutes when there isn't a player smith to interact with.
I don't think there's a lot of point in introducing unpredictability without danger.
It doesn't have to stay safe. On a fumble roll, the NPC's (ex-)partner could distract them while they are disarming your box, with unfortunate consequences for the health of the box, the NPC and/or you. Shifty type NPCs could hang out there looking to pickpocket or mug you of your newly claimed loot.
...
"That will be 2317 silvers", says Blackfinger, "if you agree to the price just pass me the box and I'll have it opened in a jiffy"
>give box to black
Blackfinger accepts your silvers, and swiftly sets about disarming a trap.
Something just went horribly wrong!
A jet of fire issues from the lock and wreathes Blackfinger in flames. He falls to the floor screaming. An apprentice rushes in and rolls him over till the flames go out, before carrying the unconcious smith off to seek medical assistance. You retrieve your chest from where it fell. Apart from being somewhat warm to the touch around the lock it seems to be undamaged. Though it will probably be some time before Blackfinger is ready to finish opening it for you.
...
>go alley
As you march into a darkened alley you feel someone brush against you.
>go door
You march through a shabby door into the locksmith's workshop.
>give box to NPCsmith
"I could open this box for you for 623 silvers, but you don't seem to have the money on you"
...
>look
The shop contains various tools for opening things that their original owners didn't want opened, and several people who look like they might be quite effective at separating things from their owners.
Also here: Nasty Nobbi and Desperate Denise
>l nobbi
You see Nasty Nobbi the Hoodlum. He appears to be a Burghal Gnome from the wrong side of town. You probably wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley whilst loaded down with loot. Actually you probably wouldn't want to meet him at all, anywhere. Fortunately, you probably won't meet him anywhere else but the dark alley just outside this shop.
Its fast.
Its predictable.
Its safe.
It needs to stay fast. There is no point forcing a player to interact with nobody for 5 minutes when there isn't a player smith to interact with.
I don't think there's a lot of point in introducing unpredictability without danger.
It doesn't have to stay safe. On a fumble roll, the NPC's (ex-)partner could distract them while they are disarming your box, with unfortunate consequences for the health of the box, the NPC and/or you. Shifty type NPCs could hang out there looking to pickpocket or mug you of your newly claimed loot.
...
"That will be 2317 silvers", says Blackfinger, "if you agree to the price just pass me the box and I'll have it opened in a jiffy"
>give box to black
Blackfinger accepts your silvers, and swiftly sets about disarming a trap.
Something just went horribly wrong!
A jet of fire issues from the lock and wreathes Blackfinger in flames. He falls to the floor screaming. An apprentice rushes in and rolls him over till the flames go out, before carrying the unconcious smith off to seek medical assistance. You retrieve your chest from where it fell. Apart from being somewhat warm to the touch around the lock it seems to be undamaged. Though it will probably be some time before Blackfinger is ready to finish opening it for you.
...
>go alley
As you march into a darkened alley you feel someone brush against you.
>go door
You march through a shabby door into the locksmith's workshop.
>give box to NPCsmith
"I could open this box for you for 623 silvers, but you don't seem to have the money on you"
...
>look
The shop contains various tools for opening things that their original owners didn't want opened, and several people who look like they might be quite effective at separating things from their owners.
Also here: Nasty Nobbi and Desperate Denise
>l nobbi
You see Nasty Nobbi the Hoodlum. He appears to be a Burghal Gnome from the wrong side of town. You probably wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley whilst loaded down with loot. Actually you probably wouldn't want to meet him at all, anywhere. Fortunately, you probably won't meet him anywhere else but the dark alley just outside this shop.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/28/2011 05:40 PM CDT
The chrism example is a good one to follow here, I think. It incentivized player raises without affecting the NPC clerics.
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/28/2011 06:43 PM CDT
The long answer is that the NPC locksmith is a good system to have for when there is nobody around to pick your boxes.
As the player of a character that does virtually NOTHING but pick locks, I have trouble understanding why it's important for folks to be able to get boxes unlocked when I (or another 'smith) am not about, yet it is not important for me to get information about items I've found if no bard is about.
We've already had one comment in this thread that price is THE reason someone uses a PC 'smith instead of the NPC. Lowering prices will only drive more people to the NPC and away from PC's. Is it not enough that EVERY stinking profession can pick locks? Now we need to make it more attractive to avoid PC's. Gee, I am really inclined to attend Ebon Gate and find some nice picks - that are going to see almost no use as PC locksmiths are further marginalized.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/28/2011 07:02 PM CDT
As the player of a character that does virtually NOTHING but pick locks, I have trouble understanding why it's important for folks to be able to get boxes unlocked when I (or another 'smith) am not about, yet it is not important for me to get information about items I've found if no bard is about.
The biggest difference I see; and I have the same problem with the bards as well, is that it is easy to carry a few babbles for when we find a bard, or to just locker the 1 piece of armor. However, with boxes, it isn't practical to carry them around all the time or to locker them. Earlier today I was almost faced with the fact that I had to go to an NPC locksmith (or abandon them) on Teras because I was carrying so many boxes (from multiple hunts with no PC locksmith around) that my containers wouldn't fit them all and I had a disk and a hand used.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/28/2011 07:28 PM CDT
Oh, and there are a number of ways that you can find out info about an item. AI Crystal, wearing it and checking info and skills, 405, probably more. And they are all free. So, yeah, rogues don't really have it all that bad.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/29/2011 01:17 PM CDT
Oh, and every profession can learn to pick, much less bash or waggle boxes. So, yeah, other professions wouldn't really have it all that bad without an NPC locksmith.
There are several things which an enhancive might do which are not exactly easy to determine - mana regeneration boosts for a square with no mana as just one example. If I meet the requirements for an enhancive, I have no way of knowing what that requirement is should I choose to pass the item on or sell it.
Your demeaning post doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of services NOT offered by NPC's. Supporting PC's and encouraging the use of their services makes much more sense than making it easier to use an NPC.
There are several things which an enhancive might do which are not exactly easy to determine - mana regeneration boosts for a square with no mana as just one example. If I meet the requirements for an enhancive, I have no way of knowing what that requirement is should I choose to pass the item on or sell it.
Your demeaning post doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of services NOT offered by NPC's. Supporting PC's and encouraging the use of their services makes much more sense than making it easier to use an NPC.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/29/2011 02:46 PM CDT
Your demeaning post doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of services NOT offered by NPC's. Supporting PC's and encouraging the use of their services makes much more sense than making it easier to use an NPC. |
The post wasn't demeaning, unless you are trying to take all posts contrary to your view as demeaning. My post was correcting a wrong statement.
The point I was trying to make is that while you can't get as good of results as a bard can, you can find some means to get a lesser result. Same thing with picking. As a non rogue, I can use the town locksmith, which costs a good bit of coin, and at the higher levels, often results in negative amounts (costs more than you get from the box) so, yeah, a lesser result. Or I could double in lockpicking, and single in disarming traps, aNd result in death on a regular basis.
Same thing for some other things. No empath available? Use the otwn healer. Costs money. or use herbs, costs money or forage time). No cleric available? Use the high holy. Or the flower girl for a bless.
The lot of a picking rogue is not as miserable as you make it out to be.
-Taakhooshi, and Me
For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/29/2011 03:17 PM CDT
>The lot of a picking rogue is not as miserable as you make it out to be.
>-Taakhooshi, and Me
In order to be a locksmith (and not just a rogue who picks on the side), you need to triple in lockpick/disarm and have 4 spells. That's a significant TP investment that gimps you for hunting. In order to be a healer, you need 9 spells, which you'd get anyway because of how pures train. If you want to be a resurrecting cleric, you need 24 ranks of SMC and 18 spells. Again, things a cleric should be training in anyway.
Empaths receive experience based on the severity of the wound, which remains static. Cleric raising experience scales down with level, but they can get saturated off of a raise.
Experience from boxes depends on the difficulty of the lock and the type/quality of lockpick you use, as well as whether you use lore and all of the factors that affect lockpicking (light, fog, spells, injuries, etc.). No one wants to wait around while a locksmith disarms a box, measures the box, and then selects the right lockpick for the job.
I could go on (healing capable of being instantaneous regardless of who does it, raising times being pretty much equal) and on (NPC empaths leaving scars while PC empaths heal the entire wound, PC clerics giving you the ability to keep all your experience), but it's clear that there's a big disparity here and being a pure locksmith is no longer a viable option.
>-Taakhooshi, and Me
In order to be a locksmith (and not just a rogue who picks on the side), you need to triple in lockpick/disarm and have 4 spells. That's a significant TP investment that gimps you for hunting. In order to be a healer, you need 9 spells, which you'd get anyway because of how pures train. If you want to be a resurrecting cleric, you need 24 ranks of SMC and 18 spells. Again, things a cleric should be training in anyway.
Empaths receive experience based on the severity of the wound, which remains static. Cleric raising experience scales down with level, but they can get saturated off of a raise.
Experience from boxes depends on the difficulty of the lock and the type/quality of lockpick you use, as well as whether you use lore and all of the factors that affect lockpicking (light, fog, spells, injuries, etc.). No one wants to wait around while a locksmith disarms a box, measures the box, and then selects the right lockpick for the job.
I could go on (healing capable of being instantaneous regardless of who does it, raising times being pretty much equal) and on (NPC empaths leaving scars while PC empaths heal the entire wound, PC clerics giving you the ability to keep all your experience), but it's clear that there's a big disparity here and being a pure locksmith is no longer a viable option.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 03:39 AM CDT
Are there any NPC empaths? I thought the NPC healers all used herbal treatments (or equivalent) rather than wound transfer. The closest comparison is to another player pouring tinctures into you.
NPC clerics do the same as minimally trained player clerics. There is sometimes a tedious rigmarole to get access to them.
NPC smiths are reasonably rubbish at lockpick repair, reliably competent at lockpick manufacture, and utterly godlike at box opening.
Unlike other NPC services, the box opening one isn't of a similarly quality to what a minimally trained player could provide, its in a totally superior league to what the best trained player can manage. Its a merchant quality service not a player quality service.
They ought to do the same sort of thing for boxes as for lockpicks. You pay up front, you get a ticket which you can swap for your opened box somewhere between 10 minutes and 24 hours later. The trickier and more expensive the job, the longer it is before you can collect the result.
NPC clerics do the same as minimally trained player clerics. There is sometimes a tedious rigmarole to get access to them.
NPC smiths are reasonably rubbish at lockpick repair, reliably competent at lockpick manufacture, and utterly godlike at box opening.
Unlike other NPC services, the box opening one isn't of a similarly quality to what a minimally trained player could provide, its in a totally superior league to what the best trained player can manage. Its a merchant quality service not a player quality service.
They ought to do the same sort of thing for boxes as for lockpicks. You pay up front, you get a ticket which you can swap for your opened box somewhere between 10 minutes and 24 hours later. The trickier and more expensive the job, the longer it is before you can collect the result.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 05:25 AM CDT
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 05:44 AM CDT
>>What if the NPC locksmiths refused to work on boxes with certain life threatening traps?
Then anyone with 25 ranks of MnS spells would be able to open it without any risk or requisite disarm training, assuming the box was neither mithril nor enruned, and probably come out better than if they'd gotten the NPC to do it. Fortunately the only professions likely to have that are sorcerers, rangers, clerics, empaths, and paladins.
The L behind the Laphrael
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a shoe.
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Laphrael
Then anyone with 25 ranks of MnS spells would be able to open it without any risk or requisite disarm training, assuming the box was neither mithril nor enruned, and probably come out better than if they'd gotten the NPC to do it. Fortunately the only professions likely to have that are sorcerers, rangers, clerics, empaths, and paladins.
The L behind the Laphrael
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a shoe.
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Laphrael
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 08:53 AM CDT
I know railing against non-rogues opening boxes is a hobby horse for some people, but I see no reason to inconvenience 95%+ of the population to make sure locksmithing rogues have constant work.
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 10:53 AM CDT
>>I know railing against non-rogues opening boxes is a hobby horse for some people, but I see no reason to inconvenience 95%+ of the population to make sure locksmithing rogues have constant work. ~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox
I agree. The issue at this point isn't with the NPC locksmiths. They are expensive enough and are likely not getting any cheaper. The issue at this point is in locksmithing as it pertains to the skills you train in and the system. Focus your attentions there and not on the NPCs, in my opinion.
I'm all for an NPC bard. Just make them cost 50% of the loresung item value or so. Seriously, I am ALL for that service, even as a player of a bard. Whatever percentage it got set at should be the equivalent of how we lose silvers getting boxes opened at cap for convenience sake. Perhaps just set it so that you can't make money just taking the item to the pawn and selling it, so 35k or so.
~Galenok
I agree. The issue at this point isn't with the NPC locksmiths. They are expensive enough and are likely not getting any cheaper. The issue at this point is in locksmithing as it pertains to the skills you train in and the system. Focus your attentions there and not on the NPCs, in my opinion.
I'm all for an NPC bard. Just make them cost 50% of the loresung item value or so. Seriously, I am ALL for that service, even as a player of a bard. Whatever percentage it got set at should be the equivalent of how we lose silvers getting boxes opened at cap for convenience sake. Perhaps just set it so that you can't make money just taking the item to the pawn and selling it, so 35k or so.
~Galenok
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 11:04 AM CDT
At this point, I'd honestly rather see updates done to allow locksmiths to use their abilities to gain XP without having to rely on other players. A trapped box generation machine already exists in the Silverwood Manor. Take that code, tweak it to provide scaling boxes based on the user, let the boxes provide XP but no internal loot, and stash it in a back room of the NPC Locksmith or rogue's guild in each town. Set a 15 minute cooldown timer after X number of uses to put it on par with AdvGuild and Sunfist tasks. Endangering public safety risks if it's in the Locksmith shop, chance of only being rescued by a fellow rogue if it's in the guild.
Everybody's happy. Nobody's inconvenienced.
The L behind the Laphrael
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a shoe.
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Laphrael
Everybody's happy. Nobody's inconvenienced.
The L behind the Laphrael
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a shoe.
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Laphrael
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 11:14 AM CDT
While it doesn't address the player interaction issue directly, I can get behind that idea. The investment of training points and time involved should equate to a similar reward to hunting or healing experience. Currently, the investment is a waste and that shouldn't be the case. Although, slippery slope, healers may want to get in on something similar. Perhaps not enough XP to see red before the cooldown kicks in? If nothing else, it is something that needs addressing internally by staff.
~Galenok
~Galenok
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 12:24 PM CDT
Here's a thought for you player locksmiths: Form some sort of guild that doesn't take scarabs and sets a fair tipping rate. I got turned off of PC locksmithing to the point where I stopped picking up any boxes because of scarab theft until the NPC smith came along. And then when I'd make a post discussing the scarab issue the number 1 response is "The NPC locksmith takes it too! If you don't like it, deal with him" and yet many of the same players are upset that people have taken the option.
Between locksmiths taking scarabs and the amount I'm expected to tip, I spend just as much money on player locksmithing as I do on the NPC one. And it takes me forever. And there are none around that can pick my level in my town (have you ever tried to get a rift box picked in Icemule? It's mostly impossible). Maybe instead of complaining to GMs asking for nerfs that will hurt all other players to benefit only yourself you could come up with a code of conduct that incentivizes players to use your services? And I mean as a large group, not just "I'm one guy and I already do this."
Drew/Chiv
Proud inventor of the Droit ballista and the Droitapult.
Invasion canary in the coal mine.
Between locksmiths taking scarabs and the amount I'm expected to tip, I spend just as much money on player locksmithing as I do on the NPC one. And it takes me forever. And there are none around that can pick my level in my town (have you ever tried to get a rift box picked in Icemule? It's mostly impossible). Maybe instead of complaining to GMs asking for nerfs that will hurt all other players to benefit only yourself you could come up with a code of conduct that incentivizes players to use your services? And I mean as a large group, not just "I'm one guy and I already do this."
Drew/Chiv
Proud inventor of the Droit ballista and the Droitapult.
Invasion canary in the coal mine.
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 10/31/2011 01:53 PM CDT
On one side of the fence, I hear players that like the NPC Locksmith saying that it often gouges them so hard that they end up not having made any money from their boxes at all.
On the other side of the fence, I hear players saying that the NPC Locksmith needs to be more painful to use than it currently is in order for pickers to get more work.
There is a reasonably steep cost with using the NPC locksmith and sometimes you end up paying more to unlock the box then what the box is worth. Over a large number of boxes you will still make a decent amount of silver. Even if you are a decent tipper to PC locksmiths you will still come out ahead on silvers using the PC locksmith vs. the NPC locksmith.
I typically use PC locksmiths when they are competent and available. That said, I don't spend a lot of effort tracking one down and I do not store boxes in my locker so most of the time I still end up using an NPC locksmith. NPC locksmiths are fast, convenient, and risk free so is generally worth the price in silvers and time savings to get back to hunting.
I also have a locksmith character that is around 50 trains and do sometimes open boxes for others. Typical experience is that there are maybe a couple of folks that have been waiting a bit, boxes are typically very easy so not that interesting from a challenge standpoint (or dangerously out of my range), and there will be 15-20 minute waits between customers once the initial 'rush' is handled. Typically there aren't a lot of other locksmiths about to RP with at the designated areas because then you would all be vying for the 1-2 clients that show up. Locksmithing does create some fun RP opportunities and locksmithing is a lot of fun on its own merit but I will typically choose to go hunting/play another character instead due to the large breaks with little to no activity. Most of the boxes I end up opening are ones that I go out and gather directly with my rogue.
As someone who spends a significant amount of silver on NPC locksmiths I would still not be in favor of reducing the current charge/cost for this service and probably wouldn't be that averse to a minor increase. While I think adding roundtime to the NPC Locksmith process probably encourage me to seek out PC locksmiths a little more aggressively than I do at present I am not sure this would be a net positive overall as I would likely still end up needing to use the NPC locksmith most of the time and thus simply spend more time with the NPC locksmith vs. doing other more enjoyable activities in the game.
I would be very much in favor of moving NPC locksmiths out of their existing establishments and into locales that are typically used by PC locksmiths (maybe a room or building just off of the main gathering area). This would provide a steady stream of potential clients to PC locksmiths as the potential client would need to pass through the PC locksmith area and would allow potential clients to see if any PC locksmiths were available each and every trip to the NPC locksmith.
As an additional thought, maybe have the NPC locksmith fumble 1 in 100 boxes or so putting the box in a state that required a PC locksmith to complete the job? I don't have a good RP reason for why the NPC locksmith couldn't handle these boxes but it likely would create an increased demand for/interaction with PC locksmiths. Of course then I'll probably start requesting additional locker space to hold my fumbled boxes until I find a locksmith to fix them...
-- Robert
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 11/01/2011 07:06 PM CDT
You pull the keys, and ask Kniknak if he can open your mithril chest.
He looks over the mithril chest, frowns, and tells you, "Havin' some trouble, eh? Of course I could open this, but it'll cost ya. Gimme 2296 silvers, and I'll have it open before you know it."
>
The infamous Kniknak Sneakyfeet accepts your silvers.
Having paid, you place a corroded mithril chest on the counter. Then, Kniknak turns his attention to the mithril chest and picks the lock with ease. "There you go," he says matter-of-factly as he hands your chest back to you.
>
You open a corroded mithril chest.
>
In the mithril chest:
magic (1): heavy quartz orb.
other (1): some silver coins.
You gather the remaining 1699 coins from inside your mithril chest.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You offer to sell your mithril chest to the dwarven clerk.
The dwarven clerk takes your mithril chest, glances at it briefly, then hands you 329 silver coins.
You offer to sell your quartz orb to the dwarven clerk.
The dwarven clerk takes your quartz orb, glances at it briefly, then hands you 469 silver coins.
-201 silvers for my effort. This is with a Dwarf in Kharam-dzu that is a citizen. And right now I am the ONLY person in Kharam-dzu, so the argument of forcing interaction means that I have to chronomage back to the Landing or take the boat when I want a box opened. Fail.
~Ifor, the tone deaf bard
Give a man a torch, he will be warm for an hour. Light a man of fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
http://twitter.com/#!/gssiforget
He looks over the mithril chest, frowns, and tells you, "Havin' some trouble, eh? Of course I could open this, but it'll cost ya. Gimme 2296 silvers, and I'll have it open before you know it."
>
The infamous Kniknak Sneakyfeet accepts your silvers.
Having paid, you place a corroded mithril chest on the counter. Then, Kniknak turns his attention to the mithril chest and picks the lock with ease. "There you go," he says matter-of-factly as he hands your chest back to you.
>
You open a corroded mithril chest.
>
In the mithril chest:
magic (1): heavy quartz orb.
other (1): some silver coins.
You gather the remaining 1699 coins from inside your mithril chest.
Roundtime: 1 sec.
You offer to sell your mithril chest to the dwarven clerk.
The dwarven clerk takes your mithril chest, glances at it briefly, then hands you 329 silver coins.
You offer to sell your quartz orb to the dwarven clerk.
The dwarven clerk takes your quartz orb, glances at it briefly, then hands you 469 silver coins.
-201 silvers for my effort. This is with a Dwarf in Kharam-dzu that is a citizen. And right now I am the ONLY person in Kharam-dzu, so the argument of forcing interaction means that I have to chronomage back to the Landing or take the boat when I want a box opened. Fail.
~Ifor, the tone deaf bard
Give a man a torch, he will be warm for an hour. Light a man of fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
http://twitter.com/#!/gssiforget
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 11/02/2011 10:36 AM CDT
> [T]he argument of forcing interaction means that I have to chronomage back to the Landing or take the boat when I want a box opened.
While I can't and won't promise anything, I can tell you that I don't see 'forcing interaction' as a design goal in the foreseeable future.
Gamemaster Konacon
Squares Team
While I can't and won't promise anything, I can tell you that I don't see 'forcing interaction' as a design goal in the foreseeable future.
Gamemaster Konacon
Squares Team
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 11/02/2011 03:22 PM CDT
Minor correction. I made 201 silvers, was not down 201 silvers.
Still...blows.
~Ifor, the tone deaf bard
Give a man a torch, he will be warm for an hour. Light a man of fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
http://twitter.com/#!/gssiforget
Still...blows.
~Ifor, the tone deaf bard
Give a man a torch, he will be warm for an hour. Light a man of fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
http://twitter.com/#!/gssiforget
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 11/08/2011 06:37 AM CST
Re: NPC Locksmith Update on 11/24/2011 01:38 PM CST
All I can say from years of playing is some of you don't use the npc locksmiths very often. They do charge you a lot more if you find armor, a weapon, or an enhacive. It's not just by silvers in the box. Same goes for a box with 1k and 1 diamond verses 2.
With that said I only use a NPC smith if I can't pick it myself, bash, or wizard pop it. I always felt they were terrible thieves and rarely use them.
Senglent and his wayward kin.
With that said I only use a NPC smith if I can't pick it myself, bash, or wizard pop it. I always felt they were terrible thieves and rarely use them.
Senglent and his wayward kin.