I posted this in the Teras hunting folder the other day, but then remembered that this folder existed and would probably be the better place for it.

Compared to other capped hunting areas, including OTF which gets way more traffic, the loot in Nelemar on Teras is pretty terrible. It doesn't seem to matter what I'm killing, which floor, or what time of day, the loot is usually pretty horrible in comparison to other capped areas.

Boxes usually don't have many coins in them, and I'll find peridots and low-mid range sapphires the majority of the time (when the boxes actually have gems). Now and then I'll get a few diamonds or pearls, but it's pretty rare overall.
I didn't really notice how bad it was until I went back to the Rift this week. Plane 4, 5, and Scatter all have much much better drop rates, and the boxes are usually way better. Got some enhancive chain on my first hunt too. Haven't found an enhancive in Nelemar in years.

I figured ok, the Rift probably just isn't hunted as much as Nelemar. Level wasn't a factor because plane 5 was dropping good loot as well. Then I went to OTF, which to my knowledge is the most hunted capped area in the game overall. The loot wasn't quite as good as in the Rift, but it was noticeably better than what I was getting in Nelemar, and I made probably 3x as much silver off an average hunt there than I do in Nelemar after cashing in.

This isn't something new to Nelemar. The loot there has been pretty terrible overall for quite some time, especially for an endgame area.

What gives?

~ Methais

I think the rift gets less pressure because it's kind of a pain in a lot of ways. Also, compared to Nelemar it's huge, with 6 different areas and at least that many zones. And don't forget that The Scatter isn't a capped hunting area, it's post cap. You get a bit of a loot boost if you're up hunting 5-15 levels. Plane 4 which is basically an at cap hunting area gets far more pressure. Meanwhile plane five, where you were likely under hunting, gets less pressure because no one likes to get imploded, and because rescues from that plane can also be quite difficult. Most people who used to hunt 5 now hunt 4, so I wouldn't be surprised if the loot on 5 is good.

Kerl

As more and more time goes on more people are capping and moving into these hunting areas. I do hope some new areas are in the works.

>It's hunting pressure. Because it's good in Platinum and was pretty good in Shattered the last time I looked. OTF has a lot of zones, where Nelemar is really just one zone, separated by the stairs.
>Wyrom, SGM


Any chance of altering the hunting pressure variables in the capped hunting grounds? Given that unlike the rest of the game there are not any other options, there is no chance of players hunting them for a while and moving on because they have leveled out, and resources/player base size/ what-have-you make the chances of new places to hunt so that the pressure eases on its own, unlikely.

Avaia, player of

>Any chance of altering the hunting pressure variables in the capped hunting grounds? Given that unlike the rest of the game there are not any other options, there is no chance of players hunting them for a while and moving on because they have leveled out, and resources/player base size/ what-have-you make the chances of new places to hunt so that the pressure eases on its own, unlikely. - Avaia

Based on my experience in Plat, where it's easier to track treasure shift with fewer players, players moving out of the area altogether wouldn't restore loot levels in a place like Nelemar. Pressure doesn't necessarily ease and treasure levels rise just because an area is underhunted, it has to get pushed onto the poor critter types by other critters where treasure is hiding being hunted hard.

Basically, when an isolated area like Nelemar -- one zone, the only in-realm area within its level range -- seems dirt poor, it's not necessarily because there are too many players in the area. It's more likely that the treasure in that area has been concentrated on one or two critters that are being killed at a substantially lower rate than all the others. So you could have nine out of ten critter types in an area looking poor, while one that gets comparatively underhunted is bursting with treasure. From what I observed, Nelemar was really bad for this. And worse, it may not always be obvious, because if you kill a few critters ten levels below you they could still turn out pretty average looking loot due to the level differential despite being extremely low on "pressure".

For example, Nelemar would regularly get stripped bare in Plat. We had most players hunting on the third floor, a smaller number on the top end of the second floor, and no one ever hunted the area around the stairs. So loot would quickly get pushed down from the critters on the top, then slowly get pushed down from the critters in the middle, and end up packed into things like dissemblers that no one bothered to kill because they were too far out of the way and too low level to be worthwile exp for a capped PC. I would periodically go down and have a slaughter-fest around there for a while, which seemed to make the treasure levels magically reset higher up in the temple as loot got pushed back up the chain.

I'm not sure if that would work as well in Prime, with more characters complicating the equation, but I just thought observations from a slightly more controllable experiment might help folks understand why things get poor.

Dave, Brandain's Bard

>>Speaking of warcamps though, does warcamp pressure have any influence on "normal" hunting area treasure, particularly in an isolated area like Teras? And is their pressure considered separate based on their level? Like if a level 50 is hunting the crap out of a warcamp, and then I go in the same warcamp at 100, does the pressure the level 50 put on it carry over too, since it's the same warcamp? I've always been curious how that worked.

Warcamp loot is a separate entity of the treasure system.

>>Wyrom I know you said you have nothing to do with the treasure system, but could you maybe try and make whomever does deal with it aware of this thread and hopefully he'll toss up a post here with some feedback or info? Thanks.

Yep.

---

~Wyrom, SGM
Quests
Platinum
Promotions

All raising the CAP to 110 will do is make a ton of instant 110 capped players. I have no real answer to the capped issue or the treasure of those areas but simply raising the level is not even a bandaid

Or they could just make any critter that is 100 or higher exempt from the treasure shifting mechanic, and maybe have drop rates scale up for critters higher than 100 if it doesn't already work that way, so people would have more incentive to go to post cap areas instead of going cruise control on Ithzir or other easy 90-99 level stuff.

They can leave all the 90-99 level stuff alone for all I care, but there's no reason that killing something 100 or higher in a game with a level cap of 100 shouldn't reward the player with the best drop rates.

~ Methais

Capped hunting grounds should be designed for level 100 players, but the older ones are actually assuming that players are a range of equally likely levels. The number of players in the 90-99 range is miniscule compared to cap and it distorts the treasure system to have critters for those players in the same place as critters for cap.

Capped areas should have a hunting ground for the 90-99 range character, where capped characters can go slumming if they are feeling fragile, a hunting ground for capped characters which is where it is expected most capped characters will be most of the time, and a tough area for 2x capped characters to show off their uberness in or for big groups to go pwning where individuals fear to tread.

None of these grounds should drive treasure into any of the other types, but pre-cap Nelemar would drive treasure to pre-cap Rift, and the Scatter would drive treasure to a post cap OTF area, should OTF get a makeover.

>I understand that coming up with new critters that aren't gimmickey, like vampires or what-have-you is far from easy, and I'm well aware that coming up with new areas takes energy, but then again, I look at temporary areas like Lich Landing and wonder...why does SIMU dump that sort of energy into a temporary area and not leave it there? Sure, some of the critters were renamed versions of existing critters, but the area itself was sound..

More precisely, every invasion critter is a re-skinned and level-adjusted version of an existing creature. They aren't appropriate for long-term hunting, and frankly wouldn't be very satisfying for players to hunt over the long term. Their special abilities and defenses aren't ever what they should be, and they tend not to be as challenging as a custom-designed foe. Most importantly, they don't fit with the lore of the land. Designing a hunting ground and the creatures to go in it is a delicate process.

I'm firmly of the opinion that whipping up a set of level 100 rats and throwing them into a generic cave in every town would have worse long-term consequences than taking the time to do hunting grounds correctly -- even if it does take years sometimes, since new hunting is mixed with so many other development tasks.

There's a difference between renaming a critter with improved level and stats, and writing an entirely different script for a critter to follow with it's own unique abilities.

Also, it's truly a player's choice to remain rooted in a town. Nobody forces that, and there are alternative ways to gain experience for almost any profession out there.

I don't personally think the answer is in new hunting areas, but it isn't my call either. I do see players enjoying warcamps quite a bit, however, and I think that's a better avenue to discuss as players. Not only are warcamps an amazing system that populates the "hunting" area with your own like-level foes, it has its own unique way to obtain your boxes so you do not have to worry about being weighed down while fighting for your life.

Another thing about warcamps is that they are a good example of how Finros was talking about "slowing down" combat. It limits the use of area effect damage via the shroud and has potentially devastating force-on-force characteristic. There's a need for strategy at times in such an environment, instead of the common trend to e-wave, cone, nature's fury, etc.

-Marstreforn-
Icemule Trace Guru
Halfling Guru

Have to agree with Aratos. You generally can't even get into them unless you are, or are with a Sunfist member. That alone makes it at best a short term solution that can't be implemented at will.

Kerl

I love the Academy Quest, which explains why I'm going on it for my fifth time. A hunting ground with a mixed variety of creatures like that with their swarming disposition would be a lot of fun.

<<<Hehe, I didn't mean warcamps literally. I meant the general concept of them, and how they are designed. It is rather brilliant in my opinion.>>>

My one Sunfist master has an awful time with warcamps. She's just not built for big battles (she's an old woman with a crossbow, after all). But I've always enjoyed going with a group, like the Drakes Vanguard. It's crazy and chaotic, like typical invasions, but lots of fun. I agree that the warcamp system is brilliant, and I wish I had another Sunfist member better suited to the challenge. Another Sunfist option I find much better suited to my character are Grimswarm patrols. With those, she can run to the next room and split the force, picking them off in small groups. Divide and conquer, as it were.

Along the same lines, I think bandit tasks from the AG are pretty great. They also scale to level and are available to everyone. At first I hated them, and usually turned them in. But I've grown to enjoy them. I've found the key, for me, is to take my time and go slow. This helps prevent tripping snares, and keeps me on my toes. Of course, the treasure they carry isn't usually great. They drop the odd gem, which isn't bad, but the real reward is turning in the task. So in a way it's a more sensible system, like warcamps. The loot comes at the end of the hunt, instead of during.

There are other options. Some creatures don't carry loot at all, but have great skins. My ranger can make more skinning than any of my other characters can make hoarding boxes. And some other critters only ever drop gems, like kiramon and magru. Of course the subject was post-cap hunting, and I don't know if there are any such options in that case. But maybe there should be.

~ Heathyr and friends

>This can be said (to one extent or another) of plenty of long term critters to one extent or another...Shan/Ithzir/Tritons can arguably be catagorized as "re-skinned level-adjusted" versions of eachother. Admittedly, each has some tweaks that make them relatively unique, and each is among (IMO) the most entertaining critters in game.

I draw a distinction between groups of themed creatures (such as the ones you name) that are intended to work together in the same hunting ground, and near-exact clones dropped into a different area. If you go to hunt a rotting woodsman or a rotting farmhand after hunting a zombie, you aren't exactly going to be overwhelmed with the novelty of it. It's especially important to have greater differentiation between creatures at higher levels, precisely because there are fewer of them.

>Also, it's truly a player's choice to remain rooted in a town. Nobody forces that, and there are alternative ways to gain experience for almost any profession out there.

What alternative way is there for say, a wizard?

My only beef with warcamps is that there needs to be more of them up at a time. It's not really an issue on Teras, but anytime I'm on the mainland, it's pretty difficult to find a warcamp that a lower level person isn't already in.

Yeah I could just be rude and force them out by walking in and having the capped Grimswarm that will spawn run them off (or kill them), but that's not really very nice, is it?

~ Methais

I'm not sure that wizard enchanting should count as an alternative way for exp. Nor a paladin using raise 3x a day. What do rangers have? Does imbue still give exp? What do bards do? Sorcerers? Warriors? Just embed? Guild checkins?





-farmer

I'm not sure that wizard enchanting should count as an alternative way for exp

There is at least one wizard that I know of (and yes, he is in Plat, and I'm sure that you are going to claim that Plat is different, blah, blah, blah) that levels exclusively by forging and enchanting.

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

"There is at least one wizard that I know of (and yes, he is in Plat, and I'm sure that you are going to claim that Plat is different, blah, blah, blah) that levels exclusively by forging and enchanting."

It can be done but... compared to healing, lockpicking, or even raising it's a long, painful road to travel.

-- Robert

I think the AG "warcamp" suggestion is one of the best I've heard in awhile.

Also, how exactly is this wizard leveling from enchanting? Just doing 100 minor projects at a time? I maybe get numbed from a 6x final cast and that's like once every 3 months or so :)