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I have a bad habit of leaving boxes on the ground when I'm in a hurry, so I decided to grab every box for a while and keep a record of what is inside for some perspective. Here's what I found in 50 Nelemar boxes from third floor critters:
Silver x 50
emerald x 1
blue peridot x 1
uncut diamond x 3
black deathstone x1
grey moonstone x 2
black moonstone x2
pink sapphire x 1
blue topaz x 1
black dreamstone x1
pink peridot x3
red geode x 1
red dreamstone x2
red starstone x2
uncut emerald x2
dragonsbreath sapphire x 1
blue lapis lazuli x 1
yellow jasper x1
blue moonstone x1
star diopside x1
yellow sapphire x1
leopard quartz x1
dragonfire emerald x1
white starstone x1
smoky topaz x1
dragonfire emerald x1
star sapphire x1
star ruby x1
green tourmaline x1
pyrite x1
small green geode x2
small purple geode x1
green starstone x1
violet sapphire x1
yellow sunstone x1
blue sapphire
iron wand
steel lockpick
crystal wand
crystal amulet
moonstone cube
aquamarine wand x2
ora leg greaves (<2000)
polished fel satyr statuette (~23K)
turquoise-set silver barrette (7306)
glyph-etched copper tiara (1501)
gilded Charl sculpture (<2000)
enruned puma fur gown (870)
>>My level 31 warrior typically finds better loot than my 3x capped wizard finds in Nelemar. /facepalm
That's because hunting pressure typically isn't so severe from levels 1 to 40 due to the options of hunting you have. We're pretty top heavy with capped players. And we really don't have the resources to push out new hunting grounds in the rate they will be desired. It's something we understand and know that are concerns though.
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
That's because hunting pressure typically isn't so severe from levels 1 to 40 due to the options of hunting you have. We're pretty top heavy with capped players. And we really don't have the resources to push out new hunting grounds in the rate they will be desired. It's something we understand and know that are concerns though.
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
>That's because hunting pressure typically isn't so severe from levels 1 to 40 due to the options of hunting you have. We're pretty top heavy with capped players. And we really don't have the resources to push out new hunting grounds in the rate they will be desired. It's something we understand and know that are concerns though.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just remove the hunting pressure mechanic from capped hunting areas? I'm not saying we should be finding diamonds and 80 pounds boxes left and right, but GS is also the only game I've ever played where higher level hunting doesn't = better loot.
If I remember correctly, warcamps aren't affected by hunting pressure, so I don't see why doing the same for capped areas would be game breaking.
~ Methais
Wouldn't it make more sense to just remove the hunting pressure mechanic from capped hunting areas? I'm not saying we should be finding diamonds and 80 pounds boxes left and right, but GS is also the only game I've ever played where higher level hunting doesn't = better loot.
If I remember correctly, warcamps aren't affected by hunting pressure, so I don't see why doing the same for capped areas would be game breaking.
~ Methais
Wyrom, thanks for acknowledging those points. It's good to know that you guys recognize the pain even if you don't always have the ability to immediately fix it.
Methias, it's true the warcamps are not under the hunting pressure system, but they also don't drop treasure like a regular hunting ground either. Most of the treasure comes from looting the chest at the end before you raze it.
Adding new permanent hunting grounds is certainly a desired solution, but considering no new hunting areas have been added since the Scatter was introduced, I'm not holding my breath for that. Even then, you'd still have issues unless you released several more areas. What about the possibility of either removing the pressure system for capped grounds like suggested, or leaving it active but tweaking it specifically for the capped areas? Are either of those options a possibility?
Methias, it's true the warcamps are not under the hunting pressure system, but they also don't drop treasure like a regular hunting ground either. Most of the treasure comes from looting the chest at the end before you raze it.
Adding new permanent hunting grounds is certainly a desired solution, but considering no new hunting areas have been added since the Scatter was introduced, I'm not holding my breath for that. Even then, you'd still have issues unless you released several more areas. What about the possibility of either removing the pressure system for capped grounds like suggested, or leaving it active but tweaking it specifically for the capped areas? Are either of those options a possibility?
That may be true if you are actually finding these things Wyrom. But when I find enhancives every week on my level 60-70 characters and don't find any enhancives for months on my capped character it really doesn't equate to better loot at cap. The chance of finding something at cap seems too small by comparison to make the 'better loot' actually better.
Heck, if the concern is about giving out too much of the 'good stuff' at cap then simply increase the chance of finding some of the 'not so good stuff' at cap. Honestly it would be more exciting to find something (anything) out of the usual silver/gem/clothing vs. the current setup.
-- Robert
You raise your heel high, bringing it down solidly on a severed troll leg's foot!
The severed troll leg howls in pain, clutching its toes!
Heck, if the concern is about giving out too much of the 'good stuff' at cap then simply increase the chance of finding some of the 'not so good stuff' at cap. Honestly it would be more exciting to find something (anything) out of the usual silver/gem/clothing vs. the current setup.
-- Robert
You raise your heel high, bringing it down solidly on a severed troll leg's foot!
The severed troll leg howls in pain, clutching its toes!
>You do get better loot at cap. You can't find higher end enhancives and the best feeder items at lower levels.
I feel like this statement is going to receive some contrary responses. The small sample of 50 boxes above doesn't prove anything but, off the top of my head, my 2.5 million xp of capped hunting has not produced any interesting enhancives.
My best treasure experience with capped hunting was the temporary ShadowGuard area near Illistim; those critters dropped crazy gems. My worst treasure experience was the Taladorians near Wehnimer's. In that case, I sacrificed bounty points and treasure for variety, proximity to Wehnimer's, a chance to kill Taladorians, and 30 second hunts.
I feel like this statement is going to receive some contrary responses. The small sample of 50 boxes above doesn't prove anything but, off the top of my head, my 2.5 million xp of capped hunting has not produced any interesting enhancives.
My best treasure experience with capped hunting was the temporary ShadowGuard area near Illistim; those critters dropped crazy gems. My worst treasure experience was the Taladorians near Wehnimer's. In that case, I sacrificed bounty points and treasure for variety, proximity to Wehnimer's, a chance to kill Taladorians, and 30 second hunts.
I know for years many players have not-picked-up boxes in many areas, and have so stated here on the Boards.
So it may very well be that many of the left behind boxes in the capped areas have indeed been generating these items, but because the (perceived) average desirability of the boxes (reward, versus hassle in opening them) is so low, they go unseen.
Compared to lower-level areas, where everyone KNOWS that you ALWAYS pick up EVERYTHING. :)
.
(Although to counterpoint my own argument, it got to the point some times--krolvin mine with warriors & warfarers is a good example--where such stupid numbers of boxes generated that I spent far longer opening them with the Thief than I did gathering them with any of the other characters. [And never really found anything juicy.] So I had no qualms about using Implosion when I was running the Sorcerer through there.)
So it may very well be that many of the left behind boxes in the capped areas have indeed been generating these items, but because the (perceived) average desirability of the boxes (reward, versus hassle in opening them) is so low, they go unseen.
Compared to lower-level areas, where everyone KNOWS that you ALWAYS pick up EVERYTHING. :)
.
(Although to counterpoint my own argument, it got to the point some times--krolvin mine with warriors & warfarers is a good example--where such stupid numbers of boxes generated that I spent far longer opening them with the Thief than I did gathering them with any of the other characters. [And never really found anything juicy.] So I had no qualms about using Implosion when I was running the Sorcerer through there.)
Well, it's good we're on a forum discussing it! Most information will be anecdotal, but I can tell you, dozens of enhancives go out every day. Temporary-weighted weapons that are like 16 points of weighting go out fairly often. Same with armor, but with padding. Yes, I know it's temporary, but some of them are set to last a long time. Enchanted claidhmores go out pretty often. Feeder items can be hit or miss with what people think are decent quality.
I'm over 2x cap with one of my PCs, I haven't played him in years, but I have never found an enchanted claidhmore. I've never found anything worth keeping. But that doesn't mean it's not happening.
I think the bottom line comes down to expectations are much different as to what "value" is. GS isn't like every other online game, where you hit cap, you raid for capped loot, you gloat around with capped loot and possibly help others get it. There is far more involvement to get cool items, but in the same sense, high end gear isn't required, and you're not refused groups when you're not sporting legendary equipment. I've always felt that comparison wasn't fair to GemStone IV
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
I'm over 2x cap with one of my PCs, I haven't played him in years, but I have never found an enchanted claidhmore. I've never found anything worth keeping. But that doesn't mean it's not happening.
I think the bottom line comes down to expectations are much different as to what "value" is. GS isn't like every other online game, where you hit cap, you raid for capped loot, you gloat around with capped loot and possibly help others get it. There is far more involvement to get cool items, but in the same sense, high end gear isn't required, and you're not refused groups when you're not sporting legendary equipment. I've always felt that comparison wasn't fair to GemStone IV
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
My capped guys are in Shattered, and while we have far fewer characters, those characters hunt 24x7, so hunting pressure keeps the treasure nerfed. My guys also pickup all boxes, and drop them in town to be picked by another player. Even so, my lvl 20s characters in prime average more treasure per hunt than my capped guys in shattered.
I will agree with you Wyrom that capped hunting grounds give you the chance for something nifty to drop, and it does happen in Shattered. Found a set of 3x HCP leathers last week, that was an incredible find, best thing I've seen in months, but in terms of bankable silvers Capped areas seem to be inferior to hunting the spider temple, or most other 20's hunting grounds.
I will agree with you Wyrom that capped hunting grounds give you the chance for something nifty to drop, and it does happen in Shattered. Found a set of 3x HCP leathers last week, that was an incredible find, best thing I've seen in months, but in terms of bankable silvers Capped areas seem to be inferior to hunting the spider temple, or most other 20's hunting grounds.
>That may be true if you are actually finding these things Wyrom. But when I find enhancives every week on my level 60-70 characters and don't find any enhancives for months on my capped character it really doesn't equate to better loot at cap. The chance of finding something at cap seems too small by comparison to make the 'better loot' actually better.
This.
I mean you can't win $50,000,000 on a lottery scratch ticket like you can playing Powerball, but much liked capped hunting, the chances of winning Powerball are like .000000000000000000000000000000001%.
~ Methais
This.
I mean you can't win $50,000,000 on a lottery scratch ticket like you can playing Powerball, but much liked capped hunting, the chances of winning Powerball are like .000000000000000000000000000000001%.
~ Methais
<I think the bottom line comes down to expectations are much different as to what "value" is. GS isn't like every other online game, where you hit cap, you raid for capped loot, you gloat around with capped loot and possibly help others get it. There is far more involvement to get cool items, but in the same sense, high end gear isn't required, and you're not refused groups when you're not sporting legendary equipment. I've always felt that comparison wasn't fair to GemStone IV
Personally I see it as a matter of perspective. Some people think, hey, capped player means you should be getting the best gear the game has to offer with treasure. Most games are set up that way. GS is not. I'm not complaining here, just making an observation. Most of my characters are set for life with their gear anyway. But my point is, this perception, in my opinion, is one of the things that hurts the number of players in GS. People hit their 60's - 70's + and they think "All right! Gimme those rich mino's!" or whatever. And then some (and it's quite a few actually) end up disappointed enough to hang up the waraxe and go elsewhere. They think, what the heck am I dying and losing a deed for? A blue crystal, a heavy quartz orb, a copper lock pick, a red spinel, and 768 coins, plus it took them an hour to find a smith to open the box. Boom, customer lost. And they won't tell their friends about GS, and so on, and so on.
Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Personally I see it as a matter of perspective. Some people think, hey, capped player means you should be getting the best gear the game has to offer with treasure. Most games are set up that way. GS is not. I'm not complaining here, just making an observation. Most of my characters are set for life with their gear anyway. But my point is, this perception, in my opinion, is one of the things that hurts the number of players in GS. People hit their 60's - 70's + and they think "All right! Gimme those rich mino's!" or whatever. And then some (and it's quite a few actually) end up disappointed enough to hang up the waraxe and go elsewhere. They think, what the heck am I dying and losing a deed for? A blue crystal, a heavy quartz orb, a copper lock pick, a red spinel, and 768 coins, plus it took them an hour to find a smith to open the box. Boom, customer lost. And they won't tell their friends about GS, and so on, and so on.
Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
The treasure system isn't particularly exciting for me. What would I do with 3x HCP armor? You can't enchant it higher without premium points or a rare merchant service. Playing a typically trained sorcerer, the only weapon of interest to me is a runestaff and I already own two 7x runestaves with a variety of additional abilities.
The mechanics of Gemstone are not the main draw for me, of course. I admire good writing and RP. MCP armor or more enhancives in capped boxes are not the only ways to rekindle my interest in the treasure system. A creative solution would be great but there needs to be some kind of solution. I thought I was a little crazy for leaving boxes on the ground; turns out it wasn't just me.
The mechanics of Gemstone are not the main draw for me, of course. I admire good writing and RP. MCP armor or more enhancives in capped boxes are not the only ways to rekindle my interest in the treasure system. A creative solution would be great but there needs to be some kind of solution. I thought I was a little crazy for leaving boxes on the ground; turns out it wasn't just me.
>GS isn't like every other online game, where you hit cap, you raid for capped loot, you gloat around with capped loot and possibly help others get it. There is far more involvement to get cool items, but in the same sense, high end gear isn't required, and you're not refused groups when you're not sporting legendary equipment. I've always felt that comparison wasn't fair to GemStone IV
True, but silvers in GS are typically a lot more valuable than they are in most other online games too, mainly since most of the good stuff in other online games are bind on pickup.
Most if not all high end stuff in GS is either an already existing (usually old) item has to either be purchased from another player, or comes from either a pay event or cashing in hundreds of dollars worth of premium points. Almost nothing that could be considered high end by the player base ever comes from the treasure system, which puts the burden of the treasure system on the player's ability to gain silvers as opposed to finding items.
This makes the glass ceiling of enhancive item quality being tied to level mostly irrelevant, as it still takes a back seat to silver accumulation, which is severely lacking in capped areas when compared to lower level areas.
~ Methais
True, but silvers in GS are typically a lot more valuable than they are in most other online games too, mainly since most of the good stuff in other online games are bind on pickup.
Most if not all high end stuff in GS is either an already existing (usually old) item has to either be purchased from another player, or comes from either a pay event or cashing in hundreds of dollars worth of premium points. Almost nothing that could be considered high end by the player base ever comes from the treasure system, which puts the burden of the treasure system on the player's ability to gain silvers as opposed to finding items.
This makes the glass ceiling of enhancive item quality being tied to level mostly irrelevant, as it still takes a back seat to silver accumulation, which is severely lacking in capped areas when compared to lower level areas.
~ Methais
I guess the point I was making was, the upper limits of what you can find are the best at capped. Yes, I know people aren't finding the best, but you still can find the best, only at higher levels. But I understand what everyone is saying here.
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
>>Most if not all high end stuff in GS is either an already existing (usually old) item has to either be purchased from another player, or comes from either a pay event or cashing in hundreds of dollars worth of premium points. Almost nothing that could be considered high end by the player base ever comes from the treasure system, which puts the burden of the treasure system on the player's ability to gain silvers as opposed to finding items.
This. That was very well said and the idea I was inadequately trying to convey. Of course in Shattered silvers are worthless, I've got 1.3 billion and nothing to spend it on, but in Prime, it's all about the silvers. If you have the silvers you can get the enhancives or high end gear.
This. That was very well said and the idea I was inadequately trying to convey. Of course in Shattered silvers are worthless, I've got 1.3 billion and nothing to spend it on, but in Prime, it's all about the silvers. If you have the silvers you can get the enhancives or high end gear.
>This makes the glass ceiling of enhancive item quality being tied to level mostly irrelevant, as it still takes a back seat to silver accumulation, which is severely lacking in capped areas when compared to lower level areas.
So where do people get all the silvers from when they have "50 million more available at ## per?" Does it all come from speculative trading on items? Is it produced by level 30 alt-characters scripting, possibly afk scripting? Do they keep wizards and now sorcerers on the side to generate income from services? All of the above?
I assume all of this is the case but I've never asked for more informed opinions.
>I fully support the idea of everyone else leaving boxes on the floor in Nelemar.
Silvean will send a demon to deliver your geode. They're great for show and tell day. In fact, show and tell day would be a good CHE event -- you're welcome.
So where do people get all the silvers from when they have "50 million more available at ## per?" Does it all come from speculative trading on items? Is it produced by level 30 alt-characters scripting, possibly afk scripting? Do they keep wizards and now sorcerers on the side to generate income from services? All of the above?
I assume all of this is the case but I've never asked for more informed opinions.
>I fully support the idea of everyone else leaving boxes on the floor in Nelemar.
Silvean will send a demon to deliver your geode. They're great for show and tell day. In fact, show and tell day would be a good CHE event -- you're welcome.
>So where do people get all the silvers from when they have "50 million more available at ## per?" Does it all come from speculative trading on items? Is it produced by level 30 alt-characters scripting, possibly afk scripting? Do they keep wizards and now sorcerers on the side to generate income from services? All of the above?
It's not that you can't gather up 50m over time just from hunting capped areas, it's just that you're more likely to do it faster by other methods, such as farming lower level skins. For example, triton radical and magus skins in Nelemar are typically worth 100-600 silvers from what I've seen myself with 101 survival and skinning a creature that has no injuries from an instant kill, crawler and cerebralite skins on plane 4 are about the same, yet I can frequently pull 1000-1500 silvers from skinning a level 30 giant fog beetle in Greymist with the same character. I'm not sure what those numbers would look like to someone with max first aid/survival, but I'm pretty sure it would still be in favor of the fog beetle skinner.
That's just one example of many. Then if you factor in the lack of capped lockpickers and end up having to use the NPC locksmith, you end up spending more money to have the box opened than you gain from the value of the contents of the box and end up losing money off of most boxes. This also typically isn't a problem at lower levels, since the NPC locksmith price is based on the lock/trap difficulty.
That's just one example of many of how the treasure system at cap is garbage compared to low and mid level treasure. The only thing capped treasure has going for it over lower level hunting is the glass ceiling on potential enhancive quality, but we've already gone over all that and how the bottom line still favors lower level hunting.
I make most of my money from recharging stuff and selling it in my shop, but most professions also don't have the luxury of an alternate way to make money outside of hunting.
~ Methais
It's not that you can't gather up 50m over time just from hunting capped areas, it's just that you're more likely to do it faster by other methods, such as farming lower level skins. For example, triton radical and magus skins in Nelemar are typically worth 100-600 silvers from what I've seen myself with 101 survival and skinning a creature that has no injuries from an instant kill, crawler and cerebralite skins on plane 4 are about the same, yet I can frequently pull 1000-1500 silvers from skinning a level 30 giant fog beetle in Greymist with the same character. I'm not sure what those numbers would look like to someone with max first aid/survival, but I'm pretty sure it would still be in favor of the fog beetle skinner.
That's just one example of many. Then if you factor in the lack of capped lockpickers and end up having to use the NPC locksmith, you end up spending more money to have the box opened than you gain from the value of the contents of the box and end up losing money off of most boxes. This also typically isn't a problem at lower levels, since the NPC locksmith price is based on the lock/trap difficulty.
That's just one example of many of how the treasure system at cap is garbage compared to low and mid level treasure. The only thing capped treasure has going for it over lower level hunting is the glass ceiling on potential enhancive quality, but we've already gone over all that and how the bottom line still favors lower level hunting.
I make most of my money from recharging stuff and selling it in my shop, but most professions also don't have the luxury of an alternate way to make money outside of hunting.
~ Methais
"the upper limits of what you can find are the best at capped. Yes, I know people aren't finding the best, but you still can find the best, only at higher levels." -- Wyrom
Honestly, I think many of the capped players would be a lot happier if the floor got moved up, too; not just the ceiling on "degree of power allowed" but "you will not find low-level stuff", too.
Yes, +15 exceptionally padded armor [you mentioned 16 points] is pretty darn good, but... it's not 'capped' good. And even as good as it is, it gets drowned in all of the +8 weapons with <slightly unusual flares> and <two uninspiring enhancives>.
If none of those generated AT ALL, and instead there was a <greater than +20> <something or other> of <unusual material> with <unusual flares/high levels of padding or weighting> and <pretty damn good enhancives>... well, yeah, that would be attractive. And noticeable. And worth picking up boxes for, because you would not be getting the +6 gold-hilted kelyn dagger with cold flares and +3 to Swimming [usable at 38th].
Honestly, I think many of the capped players would be a lot happier if the floor got moved up, too; not just the ceiling on "degree of power allowed" but "you will not find low-level stuff", too.
Yes, +15 exceptionally padded armor [you mentioned 16 points] is pretty darn good, but... it's not 'capped' good. And even as good as it is, it gets drowned in all of the +8 weapons with <slightly unusual flares> and <two uninspiring enhancives>.
If none of those generated AT ALL, and instead there was a <greater than +20> <something or other> of <unusual material> with <unusual flares/high levels of padding or weighting> and <pretty damn good enhancives>... well, yeah, that would be attractive. And noticeable. And worth picking up boxes for, because you would not be getting the +6 gold-hilted kelyn dagger with cold flares and +3 to Swimming [usable at 38th].
Well, the floor "technically" isn't the same. But I understand what everyone wants. Game balance is a really hard topic. We have some really amazing GMs who work on it. The feeders have also spit out some crazy nice items too. I've seen an 8x weapon and a 4x claidhmore generate while I was in game working. I've also seen some beastly enhancives, like +19, +17, and +5 in all really useful stuff come out on something that wasn't an aventail or quarterstaff.
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
So naturally today I pop into the temple for a quick run and find a 5x large shield. Not enhancive or useful to me but still a nice find. :p It wasn't box found though so the box droppers wouldn't have missed this either.
-- Faulkil
You raise your heel high, bringing it down solidly on a severed troll leg's foot!
The severed troll leg howls in pain, clutching its toes!
-- Faulkil
You raise your heel high, bringing it down solidly on a severed troll leg's foot!
The severed troll leg howls in pain, clutching its toes!
<<Well, the floor "technically" isn't the same. But I understand what everyone wants. Game balance is a really hard topic. We have some really amazing GMs who work on it. The feeders have also spit out some crazy nice items too. I've seen an 8x weapon and a 4x claidhmore generate while I was in game working. I've also seen some beastly enhancives, like +19, +17, and +5 in all really useful stuff come out on something that wasn't an aventail or quarterstaff.>>
But you have to understand that you're looking at the feeder for the entire game and picking the most memorable finds. From the perspective of a player spending years hunting in this game, only two people out of the entire game found those items. The rest of us found nothing or an earring with +3 swimming skill on it.
Looking at it from another angle, I run what most would consider a ridiculous collection of enhancives. In 3 1/2 years of hunting, I only found one of the enhancives I use. And it was originally crumbly, requiring a merchant service to make it permanent. I've found hundreds of junk pieces in that time. And by the way, I found this particular piece around level 60. I'm now level 153 effectively, and have been hunting plane 4/scatter for a year and a half. Shouldn't I have found a 4x claidhmore by now?
So while I believe you when you say that these great items are in the treasure system, I also believe it's quite obvious that your chances of finding anything useful in this treasure system are exceedingly low. I make a good bit of silver from the treasure system, but mostly I find it quite unrewarding.
Now I know this isn't WoW, but when players over there complained about useless stat sets in the treasure system, the development team responded by releasing new, more relevant stat sets as the game evolved. Nobody wants to find that crumbly earring of minor swimming skill. It's worth nothing more than the 35k the pawnshop will pay for it, which makes it a very nice gem but not much more than that!
What's the solution? I don't know. But this treasure system sucks. I can tell you that much! Even if you're hauling out loads of silver, it still manages to feel unrewarding somehow.
~Taverkin
But you have to understand that you're looking at the feeder for the entire game and picking the most memorable finds. From the perspective of a player spending years hunting in this game, only two people out of the entire game found those items. The rest of us found nothing or an earring with +3 swimming skill on it.
Looking at it from another angle, I run what most would consider a ridiculous collection of enhancives. In 3 1/2 years of hunting, I only found one of the enhancives I use. And it was originally crumbly, requiring a merchant service to make it permanent. I've found hundreds of junk pieces in that time. And by the way, I found this particular piece around level 60. I'm now level 153 effectively, and have been hunting plane 4/scatter for a year and a half. Shouldn't I have found a 4x claidhmore by now?
So while I believe you when you say that these great items are in the treasure system, I also believe it's quite obvious that your chances of finding anything useful in this treasure system are exceedingly low. I make a good bit of silver from the treasure system, but mostly I find it quite unrewarding.
Now I know this isn't WoW, but when players over there complained about useless stat sets in the treasure system, the development team responded by releasing new, more relevant stat sets as the game evolved. Nobody wants to find that crumbly earring of minor swimming skill. It's worth nothing more than the 35k the pawnshop will pay for it, which makes it a very nice gem but not much more than that!
What's the solution? I don't know. But this treasure system sucks. I can tell you that much! Even if you're hauling out loads of silver, it still manages to feel unrewarding somehow.
~Taverkin
One thing I had a lot of fun with was when the candy was added to the treasure system for awhile. Most of the time when you unwrapped it, it was candy, but occasionally it was something more exciting than that.
Along similar lines, why not introduce a new treasure element into the game, call it a zot, that is effectively a new currency of sorts? When you find a zot, maybe you have to scratch off the muck to determine if its a silver, gold, or platinum zot so that generates some excitement there.
Silver zots are worth some silver and the most common. Thanks for playing (but it was fun determining what kind of zot it was).
Gold zots are less common and can be used to enter a monthly raffle (that you don't need to be on-line to be drawn for) so most/many folks would have an opportunity to collect one of these during the month and enter this raffle if they do some hunting or have friends that hunt.
Platinum zots are rare (not good loot from the treasure system rare but not very common either) and can be accumulated over time and used purchase things from the Zot store (similar to the Troubled Waters TICKETs).
Zots could be traded or sold to friends but the platinum zots could also be converted to TICKETS (or some other form of eleceronic currency) such that a person wouldn't need to be physically be holding hundreds of platinum zots to buy something at the zot store. Introduce some desirable new items/services that can only be attained via this method (platinum zot purchases) and you'll likely see a lot of excitement over the gathering and hoarding of precious zots!
-- Robert
Along similar lines, why not introduce a new treasure element into the game, call it a zot, that is effectively a new currency of sorts? When you find a zot, maybe you have to scratch off the muck to determine if its a silver, gold, or platinum zot so that generates some excitement there.
Silver zots are worth some silver and the most common. Thanks for playing (but it was fun determining what kind of zot it was).
Gold zots are less common and can be used to enter a monthly raffle (that you don't need to be on-line to be drawn for) so most/many folks would have an opportunity to collect one of these during the month and enter this raffle if they do some hunting or have friends that hunt.
Platinum zots are rare (not good loot from the treasure system rare but not very common either) and can be accumulated over time and used purchase things from the Zot store (similar to the Troubled Waters TICKETs).
Zots could be traded or sold to friends but the platinum zots could also be converted to TICKETS (or some other form of eleceronic currency) such that a person wouldn't need to be physically be holding hundreds of platinum zots to buy something at the zot store. Introduce some desirable new items/services that can only be attained via this method (platinum zot purchases) and you'll likely see a lot of excitement over the gathering and hoarding of precious zots!
-- Robert
How about limited-release/rare-find potions that let an Enhancive orb absorb another, lesser, orb of the same skill? (So a 7-ranks could absorb a 6-rank, and become a 13-rank orb from there on, but a 6-rank could not absorb another 6-rank.)
THEN you would see some serious Enhancive thingies going on.
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Also, of course, a more-available way to create orbs in the first place.
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And I'm just fine with both of these being a) potions and b) creatable by Alchemy. Get those folks some pay-off for their time.
THEN you would see some serious Enhancive thingies going on.
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Also, of course, a more-available way to create orbs in the first place.
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And I'm just fine with both of these being a) potions and b) creatable by Alchemy. Get those folks some pay-off for their time.
>Now I know this isn't WoW, but when players over there complained about useless stat sets in the treasure system, the development team responded by releasing new, more relevant stat sets as the game evolved. Nobody wants to find that crumbly earring of minor swimming skill. It's worth nothing more than the 35k the pawnshop will pay for it, which makes it a very nice gem but not much more than that!
>What's the solution? I don't know. But this treasure system sucks. I can tell you that much! Even if you're hauling out loads of silver, it still manages to feel unrewarding somehow.
GS's treasure system resembles Diablo 3's old treasure system, where the majority of the items you'd find were completely useless, and the only way to gear up (I realize GS isn't a gear based game like D3, but that's not the point) would be to spend millions and millions and millions (sometimes billions) of gold buying it off of the auction house from another player.
Everybody hated it, people quit playing, Blizzard fixed the treasure system to almost always drop items that are useful for your class, got rid of the auction house, and now the game is a blast. Under the old treasure system, the game was still fun...until you reached cap. Then it just got stupid, because the only time you'd be able to get an upgrade was after several days/weeks of gold farming in order to buy gear from someone else unless you got extremely lucky and found a useful drop.
The only real bad side effect of the loot change in D3 is that there's no more player to player economy, but at the same time nobody is complaining about it either. Gold isn't useless either, it's mainly used to enchant your own gear and upgrade it further.
The only real reward in GS's treasure system is silver, which unless your goal is to make money selling silvers, is pretty boring.
~ Methais
>What's the solution? I don't know. But this treasure system sucks. I can tell you that much! Even if you're hauling out loads of silver, it still manages to feel unrewarding somehow.
GS's treasure system resembles Diablo 3's old treasure system, where the majority of the items you'd find were completely useless, and the only way to gear up (I realize GS isn't a gear based game like D3, but that's not the point) would be to spend millions and millions and millions (sometimes billions) of gold buying it off of the auction house from another player.
Everybody hated it, people quit playing, Blizzard fixed the treasure system to almost always drop items that are useful for your class, got rid of the auction house, and now the game is a blast. Under the old treasure system, the game was still fun...until you reached cap. Then it just got stupid, because the only time you'd be able to get an upgrade was after several days/weeks of gold farming in order to buy gear from someone else unless you got extremely lucky and found a useful drop.
The only real bad side effect of the loot change in D3 is that there's no more player to player economy, but at the same time nobody is complaining about it either. Gold isn't useless either, it's mainly used to enchant your own gear and upgrade it further.
The only real reward in GS's treasure system is silver, which unless your goal is to make money selling silvers, is pretty boring.
~ Methais
But a lot of those games don't have a player economy. I know it might not be the most desired way, but GS does have a pretty robust economy. There is value in all your silvers, not just in millions. Bigger and better items in the treasure system would just promote an instant gratification experience to treasure. But GS allows you to work toward a goal of great equipment and gear. Do you need the best to play? Nope! Is it a nice thing? Sure. By making everything drop better stuff, we'd devalue just about every piece of inventory in this game.
But that's sort of side tracking from the original concern, and that's cap not producing the best loot.
>>But you have to understand that you're looking at the feeder for the entire game and picking the most memorable finds.
Yes and no. I did there, yes, but the treasure spits out things near that quality daily. In the last 24 hours, so 2pm ET on 9/4 to 2pm ET on 9/5, there were 239 items generated that our random object generator made. These items tend to be anywhere from slightly better to superbly better than normal gear drops. Quality of the item is up to you though. Only 3 unique items went out in that time, and those are things GM have to make by hand. These numbers are only in Prime.
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
But that's sort of side tracking from the original concern, and that's cap not producing the best loot.
>>But you have to understand that you're looking at the feeder for the entire game and picking the most memorable finds.
Yes and no. I did there, yes, but the treasure spits out things near that quality daily. In the last 24 hours, so 2pm ET on 9/4 to 2pm ET on 9/5, there were 239 items generated that our random object generator made. These items tend to be anywhere from slightly better to superbly better than normal gear drops. Quality of the item is up to you though. Only 3 unique items went out in that time, and those are things GM have to make by hand. These numbers are only in Prime.
~Wyrom, APM
>>They call him Wyrom, not afraid to get dirty; work all day, in game by 5:30; loresongs eloquent, item embellishment, double speed development... ~Silvean
I play at cap. I collect silvers to buy herbs, and to tip clerics and empaths. It would literally take me another four years of play to bank enough silvers to afford anything epic worthy from another player. There is something askew in that entirely, given that there is no way to find it in our treasure system, and upgrades of note are done through pay cash-for events.
If you think my estimate an exageration, take all your silvers and put them in one bank, then go hunt at cap in an area that you do not have access to any of your banked silvers. IE Landing Bank, Hunt Nelemar on Teras. You will quickly see how you cannot survive on the treasure drops.
The alternative is to convert my silvers into cash and join a simu-sponsored event, or to convert my silvers to cash and buy it from a player.
I get the feeling from the NIR posts in this thread that this is how they want and expect it. I would prefer a game where the opportunity to find ten vorpal weapons of doom can be discovered, the other nine are sold to the pawnshop for distribution, than a game where the ONLY vorpal weapon of doom is in a retired character's locker forever.
The cure is to have the game create gear I can use. Either in a market where I can buy it anytime I have the notion and silver, or to drop it in the treasure system.
Part of what I'm hearing results from a difference in playing style. I'm sure some GMs watched me from time to time, and I can tell you that Kerl is a freakin' Hoover vacuum cleaner when he hunts. I am typically getting more loot than most of you for two reasons: 1, some of you are not paying attention and 2, your hunts are short. Often people think their trusty script will collect everything. I can tell you that you are missing stuff, and I am picking it up. Over the time I've hunted the scatter, I've probably picked up over 1000 weapons of magic metals, of a wide variety of values, from 1k to 20m.
This is not simply because I look harder or more closely, it's because my hunting style is different. If you go out and hunt your entire hunt in 5 minutes and move on to your next AG bounty, while I hunt for half an hour, you can't expect the same stuff that I'll find. It's just a matter of your priority vs my numbers. You'll have more EXP than I will, but I'll have more loot. It's pretty simple really.
Having said all that, I do agree that there's a need to do something for hunting at the capped level, and I don't think the answer is some parlor trick to work around the real problem. The real problem, (and thereby the solution) is that we do not have enough capped hunting areas. One more should do it. A lot of folks will tell you it should be in Wehnimer's, and I'd be OK with that, but I think that Solhaven wouldn't be a bad location either. Copying the Grimswarm system is not the right solution in my opinion.
Kerl
This is not simply because I look harder or more closely, it's because my hunting style is different. If you go out and hunt your entire hunt in 5 minutes and move on to your next AG bounty, while I hunt for half an hour, you can't expect the same stuff that I'll find. It's just a matter of your priority vs my numbers. You'll have more EXP than I will, but I'll have more loot. It's pretty simple really.
Having said all that, I do agree that there's a need to do something for hunting at the capped level, and I don't think the answer is some parlor trick to work around the real problem. The real problem, (and thereby the solution) is that we do not have enough capped hunting areas. One more should do it. A lot of folks will tell you it should be in Wehnimer's, and I'd be OK with that, but I think that Solhaven wouldn't be a bad location either. Copying the Grimswarm system is not the right solution in my opinion.
Kerl
>But a lot of those games don't have a player economy. I know it might not be the most desired way, but GS does have a pretty robust economy. There is value in all your silvers, not just in millions. Bigger and better items in the treasure system would just promote an instant gratification experience to treasure. But GS allows you to work toward a goal of great equipment and gear. Do you need the best to play? Nope! Is it a nice thing? Sure. By making everything drop better stuff, we'd devalue just about every piece of inventory in this game.
Having the solution to avoiding instant gratification being the complete opposite, i.e. farm silvers for months/years to be able to afford buying one high end item from another player, isn't the solution either.
I think offering higher end rewards through the bounty system would be a good place to start. People still have to work for the items, so that would remove the instant gratification part of it, but they also wouldn't be at the mercy of the slot machine that's the current treasure system. Want to keep those items out of the regular economy? Bind them to the character/account. Sick of that item or have no more use for it? Trade it back in for half of what you bought it for.
Want a 4x claidhmore? X amount of bounty points.
Want a cross realm teleporter? X amount of BPs, etc.
Want to enchant an item? X amount of BPs per enchant.
Want a self knowledge whatever spell item? That will also cost you a ton of BPs.
You could throw in a BP or silver based recharge option on top of it, similar to how enhancives work, so the items technically wouldn't be permanent.
It would be pretty much exactly how things are now, just with bounty rewards that are actually worth saving up for, which would also force players to choose between keeping their enhancives charged, keep saving up BPs for that awesome item they have their eye on, or buy Simucoins to keep their enhancives running while being able to keep building up BPs.
The bounty system offers almost limitless ways to address most if not all of these problems while keeping the instant gratification factor out of the equation. And since BPs take quite a while to accumulate large amounts of, the player market would still be very viable.
It's not always about hunting gear either. Most of the high end items that I've spent ridiculous amounts of money on have nothing to do with hunting or combat.
The only thing that would truly suffer as a result of something like this would be the player cash market. And possibly black hole characters, but nobody's worried about them since they just stuff items in their lockers eternally, effectively removing the item from the game.
~ Methais
Having the solution to avoiding instant gratification being the complete opposite, i.e. farm silvers for months/years to be able to afford buying one high end item from another player, isn't the solution either.
I think offering higher end rewards through the bounty system would be a good place to start. People still have to work for the items, so that would remove the instant gratification part of it, but they also wouldn't be at the mercy of the slot machine that's the current treasure system. Want to keep those items out of the regular economy? Bind them to the character/account. Sick of that item or have no more use for it? Trade it back in for half of what you bought it for.
Want a 4x claidhmore? X amount of bounty points.
Want a cross realm teleporter? X amount of BPs, etc.
Want to enchant an item? X amount of BPs per enchant.
Want a self knowledge whatever spell item? That will also cost you a ton of BPs.
You could throw in a BP or silver based recharge option on top of it, similar to how enhancives work, so the items technically wouldn't be permanent.
It would be pretty much exactly how things are now, just with bounty rewards that are actually worth saving up for, which would also force players to choose between keeping their enhancives charged, keep saving up BPs for that awesome item they have their eye on, or buy Simucoins to keep their enhancives running while being able to keep building up BPs.
The bounty system offers almost limitless ways to address most if not all of these problems while keeping the instant gratification factor out of the equation. And since BPs take quite a while to accumulate large amounts of, the player market would still be very viable.
It's not always about hunting gear either. Most of the high end items that I've spent ridiculous amounts of money on have nothing to do with hunting or combat.
The only thing that would truly suffer as a result of something like this would be the player cash market. And possibly black hole characters, but nobody's worried about them since they just stuff items in their lockers eternally, effectively removing the item from the game.
~ Methais
<< I play at cap. I collect silvers to buy herbs, and to tip clerics and empaths. It would literally take me another four years of play to bank enough silvers to afford anything epic worthy from another player. >>
If you get something epic in just four years of play, then please share the secret with me.
<< If you think my estimate an exageration, take all your silvers and put them in one bank, then go hunt at cap in an area that you do not have access to any of your banked silvers. IE Landing Bank, Hunt Nelemar on Teras. You will quickly see how you cannot survive on the treasure drops. >>
That would be interesting! The Scrapperk challenge.
I have an observation from my own experience that may or may not be of value. Prior to cap, I didn't care much about the quality of my equipment. It could be in part because I'm a Sorcerer and there just wasn't a lot of stuff for Sorcerers, but it was mostly because I saw frequent improvements in my abilities from training. After cap, the rate of improvement slowed so much that I began searching for another way to improve. That other way was equipment.
If you get something epic in just four years of play, then please share the secret with me.
<< If you think my estimate an exageration, take all your silvers and put them in one bank, then go hunt at cap in an area that you do not have access to any of your banked silvers. IE Landing Bank, Hunt Nelemar on Teras. You will quickly see how you cannot survive on the treasure drops. >>
That would be interesting! The Scrapperk challenge.
I have an observation from my own experience that may or may not be of value. Prior to cap, I didn't care much about the quality of my equipment. It could be in part because I'm a Sorcerer and there just wasn't a lot of stuff for Sorcerers, but it was mostly because I saw frequent improvements in my abilities from training. After cap, the rate of improvement slowed so much that I began searching for another way to improve. That other way was equipment.
How much are people hunting with a partner at cap?
I've hunted the 65-85 range with three characters, 2 mostly solo, 1 mostly with a partner. The one with the partner was the one that got the juicy items. Its only a 1 tier bonus for hunting with a partner, but my experience is that it makes a huge difference to the frequency and quality of the top items, though not much to the silver volume. You may well be best soloing and keeping all of a modestly smaller pile if you want silver volume, but I think you need a regular partner (or to run a MA group) if you want the best items.
Beyond 90 the profession mismatch was too great to find anyone that it was fun to hunt with. Either I learnt nothing because they killed fast, or they got into trouble because they gave me a chance to learn. Solo hunting Planes 4 and 5 the juicy items dried up although I was still getting decent silver volume compared to the earlier levels but I put this down to losing the group and uphunting bonuses rather than the treasure being inherently worse.
I've hunted the 65-85 range with three characters, 2 mostly solo, 1 mostly with a partner. The one with the partner was the one that got the juicy items. Its only a 1 tier bonus for hunting with a partner, but my experience is that it makes a huge difference to the frequency and quality of the top items, though not much to the silver volume. You may well be best soloing and keeping all of a modestly smaller pile if you want silver volume, but I think you need a regular partner (or to run a MA group) if you want the best items.
Beyond 90 the profession mismatch was too great to find anyone that it was fun to hunt with. Either I learnt nothing because they killed fast, or they got into trouble because they gave me a chance to learn. Solo hunting Planes 4 and 5 the juicy items dried up although I was still getting decent silver volume compared to the earlier levels but I put this down to losing the group and uphunting bonuses rather than the treasure being inherently worse.
>Part of what I'm hearing results from a difference in playing style. I'm sure some GMs watched me from time to time, and I can tell you that Kerl is a freakin' Hoover vacuum cleaner when he hunts. I am typically getting more loot than most of you for two reasons: 1, some of you are not paying attention and 2, your hunts are short. Often people think their trusty script will collect everything. I can tell you that you are missing stuff, and I am picking it up. Over the time I've hunted the scatter, I've probably picked up over 1000 weapons of magic metals, of a wide variety of values, from 1k to 20m.
>This is not simply because I look harder or more closely, it's because my hunting style is different. If you go out and hunt your entire hunt in 5 minutes and move on to your next AG bounty, while I hunt for half an hour, you can't expect the same stuff that I'll find. It's just a matter of your priority vs my numbers. You'll have more EXP than I will, but I'll have more loot. It's pretty simple really.
Sometimes I hunt just long enough to fill my head or complete my bounty, and other times I stay out until I can't pick anything else up. And I kill extremely fast too, mainly using rapid fire immolate, and if I'm feeling extra violent, I'll park my cleric somewhere as a mana battery, so my downtime is almost non-existent and my killing rate is extremely fast. If I'm using rapid fire 901, I pretty much never run out of mana and my killing speed is only slightly slower than it is with rapid fire immolate.
The last time I found something worthwhile was some 4x heavily crit padded robes in 2010, which I still wouldn't consider high end, but still decent. In fact, in my 18 years of playing, that's probably the best item I've ever found.
I know Taverkin usually stays out for a pretty long time on most of his hunts too, as opposed to finishing a bounty and then going afk at a table.
~ Methais
>This is not simply because I look harder or more closely, it's because my hunting style is different. If you go out and hunt your entire hunt in 5 minutes and move on to your next AG bounty, while I hunt for half an hour, you can't expect the same stuff that I'll find. It's just a matter of your priority vs my numbers. You'll have more EXP than I will, but I'll have more loot. It's pretty simple really.
Sometimes I hunt just long enough to fill my head or complete my bounty, and other times I stay out until I can't pick anything else up. And I kill extremely fast too, mainly using rapid fire immolate, and if I'm feeling extra violent, I'll park my cleric somewhere as a mana battery, so my downtime is almost non-existent and my killing rate is extremely fast. If I'm using rapid fire 901, I pretty much never run out of mana and my killing speed is only slightly slower than it is with rapid fire immolate.
The last time I found something worthwhile was some 4x heavily crit padded robes in 2010, which I still wouldn't consider high end, but still decent. In fact, in my 18 years of playing, that's probably the best item I've ever found.
I know Taverkin usually stays out for a pretty long time on most of his hunts too, as opposed to finishing a bounty and then going afk at a table.
~ Methais
