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ReplyJust came back after a year or so being away. Read through the forums looking for an answer to my question before posting, no luck.
1.Does Arm of the Arkati work with UAC?
2.Can you bond with boots or gloves and can you use guiding light flares on either?
3. Last question on shields, if I read it correctly, a full 2x shield training will mean I have no penalty for using a shield?
>>1.Does Arm of the Arkati work with UAC?
It should but my understanding is that you'll only do more damage, it won't give you more crits as they depend on endroll, still useful but not quite as much as it helps melee.
>>2.Can you bond with boots or gloves and can you use guiding light flares on either?
You can't bond to them, no, but if you managed to find some sanctified ones you should be able to cast guiding light on them.
>>3. Last question on shields, if I read it correctly, a full 2x shield training will mean I have no penalty for using a shield?
You'll still have a penalty but it won't be near as bad. Penalties for using a shield and other things can be found here: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_modifier#Shield_Penalties
You can thank Mark for that.
It should but my understanding is that you'll only do more damage, it won't give you more crits as they depend on endroll, still useful but not quite as much as it helps melee.
>>2.Can you bond with boots or gloves and can you use guiding light flares on either?
You can't bond to them, no, but if you managed to find some sanctified ones you should be able to cast guiding light on them.
>>3. Last question on shields, if I read it correctly, a full 2x shield training will mean I have no penalty for using a shield?
You'll still have a penalty but it won't be near as bad. Penalties for using a shield and other things can be found here: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_modifier#Shield_Penalties
You can thank Mark for that.
<You'll still have a penalty but it won't be near as bad.>
I'd like to add a few thoughts to this. I understand a lot of folk, esp those that aren't playing a monk, being reluctant to go hunting with nothing in their hands. Heck, when I rolled up my monk I was extremely nervous about how it would work out since I've never had a character that didn't have SOMETHING they were holding to help protect themself... and I was about to do it without armor too?
However, the benefits a shield offers does NOT outweigh the drawbacks to UAC, esp if you're wearing armor as well. Even the 15 point hint you take to MM with a small shield and 2x in Shields is significant (and since paladins generally wear heavier armor, it's more like a 20-23 point hit). It will be the difference between missing them completely and stunning them, all else being equal.
If you're making UAC your main attack style, train for it to be (2x dodge, 1x or more in TWC, CM, and PF). If you have extra points after that, you can still pick up training in shields if you want to have one out when setting up attacks on critters that use bolt spells or ranged weapons... but even then, I'd have a macro or short script to put away my shield before attacking.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I'd like to add a few thoughts to this. I understand a lot of folk, esp those that aren't playing a monk, being reluctant to go hunting with nothing in their hands. Heck, when I rolled up my monk I was extremely nervous about how it would work out since I've never had a character that didn't have SOMETHING they were holding to help protect themself... and I was about to do it without armor too?
However, the benefits a shield offers does NOT outweigh the drawbacks to UAC, esp if you're wearing armor as well. Even the 15 point hint you take to MM with a small shield and 2x in Shields is significant (and since paladins generally wear heavier armor, it's more like a 20-23 point hit). It will be the difference between missing them completely and stunning them, all else being equal.
If you're making UAC your main attack style, train for it to be (2x dodge, 1x or more in TWC, CM, and PF). If you have extra points after that, you can still pick up training in shields if you want to have one out when setting up attacks on critters that use bolt spells or ranged weapons... but even then, I'd have a macro or short script to put away my shield before attacking.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
New to the UAC thing as I just started a monk last night, so curious about a bit you said.
>...1x or more in TWC...<
What benefit does that provide exactly? Will you get two jabs/punches/kicks/grapples from it? I completely planned on being a typical empty-handed, robe-wearing, dodging fool of a monk.
Thanks,
Appoloin
>...1x or more in TWC...<
What benefit does that provide exactly? Will you get two jabs/punches/kicks/grapples from it? I completely planned on being a typical empty-handed, robe-wearing, dodging fool of a monk.
Thanks,
Appoloin
<What benefit does that provide exactly? Will you get two jabs/punches/kicks/grapples from it?>
No, TWC will not allow multiple attacks with UCS. What it does is provide parry DS, similar to that of a main gauche, for folks that are trained in brawling.
When this was first implemented 1 rank was enough give +20 with anything beyond that giving extra bonuses, but I THINK it was modified shortly afterward to require a minimum of .5x to get the minimum benefit (there was a lot of back and fourth at the time and not all the posts were saved to Krakiipedia, but I'm fairly sure it was tweaked somewhat). I'm sure someone will chime in to clarify either way.
Either way, if you don't train in TWC you'll prolly find yourself without enough DS at like level. I know I was struggling with my monk until it went into effect.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
No, TWC will not allow multiple attacks with UCS. What it does is provide parry DS, similar to that of a main gauche, for folks that are trained in brawling.
When this was first implemented 1 rank was enough give +20 with anything beyond that giving extra bonuses, but I THINK it was modified shortly afterward to require a minimum of .5x to get the minimum benefit (there was a lot of back and fourth at the time and not all the posts were saved to Krakiipedia, but I'm fairly sure it was tweaked somewhat). I'm sure someone will chime in to clarify either way.
Either way, if you don't train in TWC you'll prolly find yourself without enough DS at like level. I know I was struggling with my monk until it went into effect.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
| New to the UAC thing as I just started a monk last night, so curious about a bit you said. |
| >...1x or more in TWC...< |
| What benefit does that provide exactly? Will you get two jabs/punches/kicks/grapples from it? I completely planned on being a typical empty-handed, robe-wearing, dodging fool of a monk. |
| Thanks, |
| Appoloin |
UAC benefits from TWC training are limited to DS only. Offensively, TWC training is a non-factor. The only UAC multi-strike capability is Flurry of Blows with JAB attacks.
This is the relevant post from Oscuro:
| This wasn't intended. The +15 DS bonus for a brawler with an open left was intended for people who dedicate continued training to Two Weapon Combat. We've updated the formula to require a minimum of 0.5x training in Two Weapon Combat before the +15 "main gauche or sai" DS bonus kicks in. One rank of TWC will still initiate the open left hand parry DS formula, but the immediate DS increase from one rank won't be as staggering. |
| Basically, if you only have one rank of TWC and you're higher than level 2, you'll lose 10 DS in offensive stance until you reach 0.5x in TWC again. |
| GameMaster Oscuro |
Mark
Even going over .5x may not really worth it, you only gain .1 offensive DS per rank after that. I know for rogues and monks dodge is cheap enough that you get more DS by training it then more TWC. For warriors dodge is expensive enough compared to TWC that TWC is the cheaper route to go after having .5x TWC and 2x dodge.
One of the perks of twc training beyond the DS gained is the second parry chance from your left hand. Though this requires you to know spell 1214 or to be holding a weapon in that hand. Twc is a skill that as I have points, I'll let them accumulate there and whatever benefit I gain from it, cool.
<Even going over .5x may not really worth it, you only gain .1 offensive DS per rank after that.>
More then 95% of the time something swings at me I'm in either defensive or guarded stance.... why would I be worried about small returns on DS in offensive stance?
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
More then 95% of the time something swings at me I'm in either defensive or guarded stance.... why would I be worried about small returns on DS in offensive stance?
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Let me start by saying that I read the entire "So you want to be a Monk" thread as well as most of the topics in this Thread if they looked at all applicable. It was like drinking from a fire hose, but I picked it up as best as I could, but I still have a few questions.
I've seen the chart that talks about 2x'ing shield bringing the additional penalty down, but what about Warriors who 3x shield? Is there any benefit for going 3x? Does it further reduce the shield penalty? Seems like it should for all those points!
Also, I'm trying to wrap my head around having my warrior completely change his paradigm from being a claid wielding tank in full plate to a punching and kicking maniac. I have a set of really nice double leathers, but I also have a very nice set of full plate. I know there is a very small penalty for wearing leather armor... is there any benefit to dropping back from that to cloth robes other than the 1 point of MM penalty, assuming I read things correctly? Are there other benefits to wearing cloth as opposed to the doubles that I should take into consideration?
What about cmans for USC for warriors to help mitigate some of the things that they lack that Monks gain from their spells? By the way, I'm a hair over twice cap, so have MnE up to 430 currently and love the benefits that gives me.
Suggestions on training, fighting style?
I've seen the chart that talks about 2x'ing shield bringing the additional penalty down, but what about Warriors who 3x shield? Is there any benefit for going 3x? Does it further reduce the shield penalty? Seems like it should for all those points!
Also, I'm trying to wrap my head around having my warrior completely change his paradigm from being a claid wielding tank in full plate to a punching and kicking maniac. I have a set of really nice double leathers, but I also have a very nice set of full plate. I know there is a very small penalty for wearing leather armor... is there any benefit to dropping back from that to cloth robes other than the 1 point of MM penalty, assuming I read things correctly? Are there other benefits to wearing cloth as opposed to the doubles that I should take into consideration?
What about cmans for USC for warriors to help mitigate some of the things that they lack that Monks gain from their spells? By the way, I'm a hair over twice cap, so have MnE up to 430 currently and love the benefits that gives me.
Suggestions on training, fighting style?
If you try to use UCS with a warrior the same way a monk does, you are going to have a VERY hard time. Monks access to the Minor Mental circle is what make it possible for them to run around in robes, without 1202 or some sort of armor any hit you take will bring your hunt to an abrupt end.
<but what about Warriors who 3x shield? Is there any benefit for going 3x? Does it further reduce the shield penalty?>
There's no benefit to training above 2x in shields as far as the MM penalty is concerned.
<is there any benefit to dropping back from that to cloth robes other than the 1 point of MM penalty, assuming I read things correctly? Are there other benefits to wearing cloth as opposed to the doubles that I should take into consideration?>
If your character was a monk, I'd say definitely go with robes... but monks have access to 1202 and warriors don't. After thinking about it a bit, considering your level, and double checking the MM penalties I'd recommend sticking with your plate and either not using a shield at all or stowing your shield before attacking.
With both armor and shield, the penalty to MM adds up quick, you're not going want to be using both when you attack because a 25 point hit will make it seriously hard to get a decent hit on most foes. Since you're going to be taking hits occasionally anyway (with or without a shield) and plate armor has a half penalty to MM as a medium shield (assuming 2x in Shield Use), you'd be better off losing the shield and keeping the armor.
If you're worried about not having enough DS, getting enchanted UCS gloves and boots will make up for your shield's enchantment and getting 1x or more in TWC will boost your DS when both hands are empty (similar to how a main gauche works).
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
<but what about Warriors who 3x shield? Is there any benefit for going 3x? Does it further reduce the shield penalty?>
There's no benefit to training above 2x in shields as far as the MM penalty is concerned.
<is there any benefit to dropping back from that to cloth robes other than the 1 point of MM penalty, assuming I read things correctly? Are there other benefits to wearing cloth as opposed to the doubles that I should take into consideration?>
If your character was a monk, I'd say definitely go with robes... but monks have access to 1202 and warriors don't. After thinking about it a bit, considering your level, and double checking the MM penalties I'd recommend sticking with your plate and either not using a shield at all or stowing your shield before attacking.
With both armor and shield, the penalty to MM adds up quick, you're not going want to be using both when you attack because a 25 point hit will make it seriously hard to get a decent hit on most foes. Since you're going to be taking hits occasionally anyway (with or without a shield) and plate armor has a half penalty to MM as a medium shield (assuming 2x in Shield Use), you'd be better off losing the shield and keeping the armor.
If you're worried about not having enough DS, getting enchanted UCS gloves and boots will make up for your shield's enchantment and getting 1x or more in TWC will boost your DS when both hands are empty (similar to how a main gauche works).
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
My armor options are:
fusion Full Plate
5x
some ancient black Sith battle armor.
damage padded
+15 to Logic.
highly resistant to puncturing attacks, highly resistant to shocking attacks, and highly resistant to impact attacks.
OR
a sinister black Sith cape
double leathers
10x DS
10x TD
Spiked
Tier 3 Ithzir flares
fusion Full Plate
5x
some ancient black Sith battle armor.
damage padded
+15 to Logic.
highly resistant to puncturing attacks, highly resistant to shocking attacks, and highly resistant to impact attacks.
OR
a sinister black Sith cape
double leathers
10x DS
10x TD
Spiked
Tier 3 Ithzir flares
3x rather than 2x shield means 101 more shield points. Its what you buy with your shield points that further reduces MM penalties, not the training itself.
Get 3 ranks punchmastery from your Cmans.
Get full shielded brawler with your shield points.
Otherwise whatever is important for weapon/shield is even more important for UCS. Whatever you use for crowd control, RT locking and set up, but even more so. You need to tie down like level opposition for about 3s longer with CMans (or spells) for UCS than you did with a weapon. The further above you in level the critter is, the longer it takes. +5 levels (upper end of BCS variation on a like level critter) about 6s extra. +10 levels (upper end of BCS on top of AG normal variation) about 15s extra. I'd be surprised if you aren't pulling out your weapon at this stage, but you will be if the critters go any higher, because tiering is completely impossible past about +15 levels (upper end of grizzled on normal AG tasks).
I have no idea what the various benefits of your armors are worth, but you should stick with whatever you wear when using a weapon. I am not sure whether the MM penalty is reduced in the same way that other action penalty related stuff is by overtraining in armor. It may be that you can get extra overtraining as well as a lower penalty base by going with AsG 17 or 18 rather than 20 if you are wearing plate for protection rather than leather for spellcasting.
MnE is more powerful than MnM. You don't need Cmans to compensate for not having MnM if you have 430. (You may need compensation for not having 120 if you don't have any MnS). The real difference is that extra period of time you have to control an opponent to tier up before you can hurt them with UCS compared to a weapon. As a warrior you are in a much better position to do this than a monk is, because you get 3 times the quantity as well as better quality manoevers to choose from. There is nothing a monk can do that remotely compares with ewaving a crowd that can be ewaved, or trampling a crowd that can be trampled and even something like feint which both can do, the warrior inflicts about double the RT that the monk does.
Get 3 ranks punchmastery from your Cmans.
Get full shielded brawler with your shield points.
Otherwise whatever is important for weapon/shield is even more important for UCS. Whatever you use for crowd control, RT locking and set up, but even more so. You need to tie down like level opposition for about 3s longer with CMans (or spells) for UCS than you did with a weapon. The further above you in level the critter is, the longer it takes. +5 levels (upper end of BCS variation on a like level critter) about 6s extra. +10 levels (upper end of BCS on top of AG normal variation) about 15s extra. I'd be surprised if you aren't pulling out your weapon at this stage, but you will be if the critters go any higher, because tiering is completely impossible past about +15 levels (upper end of grizzled on normal AG tasks).
I have no idea what the various benefits of your armors are worth, but you should stick with whatever you wear when using a weapon. I am not sure whether the MM penalty is reduced in the same way that other action penalty related stuff is by overtraining in armor. It may be that you can get extra overtraining as well as a lower penalty base by going with AsG 17 or 18 rather than 20 if you are wearing plate for protection rather than leather for spellcasting.
MnE is more powerful than MnM. You don't need Cmans to compensate for not having MnM if you have 430. (You may need compensation for not having 120 if you don't have any MnS). The real difference is that extra period of time you have to control an opponent to tier up before you can hurt them with UCS compared to a weapon. As a warrior you are in a much better position to do this than a monk is, because you get 3 times the quantity as well as better quality manoevers to choose from. There is nothing a monk can do that remotely compares with ewaving a crowd that can be ewaved, or trampling a crowd that can be trampled and even something like feint which both can do, the warrior inflicts about double the RT that the monk does.
