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306 Holy Bolt changed into a bane/smite bolt holy bolt/unholy bolt according to Religion lore (24-50 ranks required)
309/315 merger leaving us with. 315 Bolt splash spell with same unholy bolt/bolt flavouring. We are talking Raider's of the Lost Ark of the covenant blast of POWAH!
320 Manuever attack Pillar of Flame/Deity specific flavoring. Pillar of swords, daggers, hammers, lightning etc.
:) GBB
You guys should probably start simpler. The conversation dead-ends quick when you jump to ark of the covenant power talk for a 15th level spell.
What problems are you actually having with the class?
Can't kill things...
Certain builds can't kill things...
Can kill things, but it's boring...
Need some kind of utility to address XYZ specific problem...
Abilty XYZ is severely broken and this is when/why...
Are good starting points.
Viduus
What problems are you actually having with the class?
Can't kill things...
Certain builds can't kill things...
Can kill things, but it's boring...
Need some kind of utility to address XYZ specific problem...
Abilty XYZ is severely broken and this is when/why...
Are good starting points.
Viduus
Well let us start with Sanctum hunting on my cleric. The swarms overwhelm even 316 and 335 barely puts a dent in them all too often the build up of 335 is good but I miss the effectiveness of an instant mass attack spell with a reliable kill/stun/incapacitate ability. As is my wizard is much better at handling the sanctum swarms.
One on one the cleric seems to do better with 240 + 302/317 combos.
TD versus cleric spells always seems high and 317 once didn't seem to have a scaling effectiveness of 1115 with lores. Though it is still better than 519.
Clerics don't bolt very high (by design) The bonus to 307 bolts was much needed and helped.
Clerics don't swing use a weapon well (by design) Those weapon users are paladins now right?
So the three methods of attack clerics are lower than the other pures though sorcs probably have lower weapon abilities. Same max CS as an empath higher TD's on creatures across the board. 2 instant CS damage attack spells in the 300's. O MA spells. 1 Mass attack spell that isn't instant in the 300s.
What do clerics have in their favor? Massive TD/DS/MA defense coupled with a great short term disabler. 316 and 319 saves my cleric through so many encounters that without them I think it would be impossible to hunt. 314 is amazing for keeping weight down and provides QoL. 340 gives a great boost if a bit cumbersome to use. What I would like to see if more than the 306/118/111 bolt. More CS instant damage spells that would fit different scenarios. I like the concept of 312 but I have only found one or two occasions when it was worth using.
GBB
One on one the cleric seems to do better with 240 + 302/317 combos.
TD versus cleric spells always seems high and 317 once didn't seem to have a scaling effectiveness of 1115 with lores. Though it is still better than 519.
Clerics don't bolt very high (by design) The bonus to 307 bolts was much needed and helped.
Clerics don't swing use a weapon well (by design) Those weapon users are paladins now right?
So the three methods of attack clerics are lower than the other pures though sorcs probably have lower weapon abilities. Same max CS as an empath higher TD's on creatures across the board. 2 instant CS damage attack spells in the 300's. O MA spells. 1 Mass attack spell that isn't instant in the 300s.
What do clerics have in their favor? Massive TD/DS/MA defense coupled with a great short term disabler. 316 and 319 saves my cleric through so many encounters that without them I think it would be impossible to hunt. 314 is amazing for keeping weight down and provides QoL. 340 gives a great boost if a bit cumbersome to use. What I would like to see if more than the 306/118/111 bolt. More CS instant damage spells that would fit different scenarios. I like the concept of 312 but I have only found one or two occasions when it was worth using.
GBB
>>What problems are you actually having with the class?
I think one of the bigger problems relates to the difference in smite/bane. Bane clerics can kill the living well, and then use 306 to super murder the undead. Smite clerics, on the other hand, can smite the undead good and then super murder them, but they lack that living killing counterpart.
The difference damage types in 317 and 335 is awesome, but it also creates some weird imbalances at times it seems. If you have an elemental effect, that makes it unusable in some areas or against some things, whereas the more generic damage types have no such restrictions. An option for that might be to allow the generic version (what the other converts get) to be usable for anyone much like how elements are chosen with 518.
In short, for the above, variety and choice are awesome, but the choices should be balanced.
Clerics also seem to be missing a non-CS, non-bolt attack spell like Earthen Fury or Maelstrom/Implode. I believe that is supposed to be in the works though?
_ _ _
Myasara says, "Raining rocks down on my city was not the best course of action."
- - -
Nishima put a group of five partially frozen corpses in the Nishima disk.
Several frozen limbs peek out of the disk in a macabre fashion.
I think one of the bigger problems relates to the difference in smite/bane. Bane clerics can kill the living well, and then use 306 to super murder the undead. Smite clerics, on the other hand, can smite the undead good and then super murder them, but they lack that living killing counterpart.
The difference damage types in 317 and 335 is awesome, but it also creates some weird imbalances at times it seems. If you have an elemental effect, that makes it unusable in some areas or against some things, whereas the more generic damage types have no such restrictions. An option for that might be to allow the generic version (what the other converts get) to be usable for anyone much like how elements are chosen with 518.
In short, for the above, variety and choice are awesome, but the choices should be balanced.
Clerics also seem to be missing a non-CS, non-bolt attack spell like Earthen Fury or Maelstrom/Implode. I believe that is supposed to be in the works though?
_ _ _
Myasara says, "Raining rocks down on my city was not the best course of action."
- - -
Nishima put a group of five partially frozen corpses in the Nishima disk.
Several frozen limbs peek out of the disk in a macabre fashion.
Holy Steam.
Evoke 306
Plasma soaked holy water flashes to superheated steam as it rushes towards ...
Minor steam providing a decent alternative to holy water against the living and variety though generally not mechanical advantage against undead. Requires 20 ranks religion to unlock.
...
Evoked 302
With enough lore in religion the cleric can pray to evoke extra power (and expend extra mana) when smiting their enemies.
PRAY SMITE X where X can be 2,3 or 4 provided the cleric has at least 20 religion for 2, 40 for 3, or 60 for 4 extra mana.
EVOKE 302 generates a channeled version with the extra power going in increased crit level if stance is neutral or higher and a cast version with the extra power going to ball style splashes if in a lower stance.
Each power up increases the crit floor by 1 rank for the channeled version, and the number of extra crits by 1 for the cast version. i.e. for an extra 2 mana the target gets a second crit, for 3 mana a second critter might get splashed, and for 4 mana up to two extra critters might get splashed.
The powerup cost and effect is not affected by alignment, although the base is. i.e. Evoke against wrong aligned costs 6,7,8 mana.
Evoke 306
Plasma soaked holy water flashes to superheated steam as it rushes towards ...
Minor steam providing a decent alternative to holy water against the living and variety though generally not mechanical advantage against undead. Requires 20 ranks religion to unlock.
...
Evoked 302
With enough lore in religion the cleric can pray to evoke extra power (and expend extra mana) when smiting their enemies.
PRAY SMITE X where X can be 2,3 or 4 provided the cleric has at least 20 religion for 2, 40 for 3, or 60 for 4 extra mana.
EVOKE 302 generates a channeled version with the extra power going in increased crit level if stance is neutral or higher and a cast version with the extra power going to ball style splashes if in a lower stance.
Each power up increases the crit floor by 1 rank for the channeled version, and the number of extra crits by 1 for the cast version. i.e. for an extra 2 mana the target gets a second crit, for 3 mana a second critter might get splashed, and for 4 mana up to two extra critters might get splashed.
The powerup cost and effect is not affected by alignment, although the base is. i.e. Evoke against wrong aligned costs 6,7,8 mana.
I agree with BRANDTJRT, SMITING clerics have some trouble hunting at certain level thresholds due to the unavailability of undead mobs.
My cleric is currently level 66 and she uses 312 to hunt the living with my sorcerer. My sorcerer at level 67 has a lot of great spells to use against mobs that I feel are strategic. Spells like Grasp of the Grave(709), Corrupt Essence(703), and Limb Disruption (708).
Clerics have similar strategic spells, but they are limited to use on the undead or aren't very effective. Blind(311), for example, doesn't even work on the undead and becomes worthless if the target is immune to stun. Compare 311 spell to Paladins' Divine Strike(1615).
Overall it just feels like Clerics don't gain much in the way of useful offensive spells after 306 until 317, but 317 requires a really big mana pool to be effective while hunting.
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
My cleric is currently level 66 and she uses 312 to hunt the living with my sorcerer. My sorcerer at level 67 has a lot of great spells to use against mobs that I feel are strategic. Spells like Grasp of the Grave(709), Corrupt Essence(703), and Limb Disruption (708).
Clerics have similar strategic spells, but they are limited to use on the undead or aren't very effective. Blind(311), for example, doesn't even work on the undead and becomes worthless if the target is immune to stun. Compare 311 spell to Paladins' Divine Strike(1615).
Overall it just feels like Clerics don't gain much in the way of useful offensive spells after 306 until 317, but 317 requires a really big mana pool to be effective while hunting.
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
>> Can kill things, but it's boring...
I'll start with this one. I'm a smite-aligned, warding, capped cleric. My primary, and only, method of useful attack is 317 mixed in with 316 to control any population problems. It's terribly boring - although very effective. I'm certainly not advocating getting rid of this method because it is fun at times, but there are other times where I wish I had other alternatives. 302 just doesn't cut it anymore at higher levels. 306 is not useful since I have no spell aim (yet), and even then only useful on undead. 312 is a weird spell that I only use on creatures I'm trying to skin, and I certainly never use the charging aspect of the spell - who wants hard roundtime BEFORE attacking?? It's not nearly as powerful as 317 and only a few mana less, so 317 always gets the nod. There just isn't any variety of attack spells. It's 302 all the way until you have the mana power to consistently use 317. As others have pointed out, there's this awkward phase in the mid-levels where you're too old to be using 302 against like-level critters but too young to be using 317. And if you're smite-aligned, you're severely limited in your hunting ability at mid-levels because of the undead gap. There are definitely spell slots available to fill this void with - 309, 311, 312. When combining 309 and 315, 315 is too close to 317, so I'd use 309 as the "new" spell slot and leave 315 and the uncurse spot. 311 is just a fluff spell with no real mechanical usefulness (IMO) - I would not miss it if it entirely went away. I would vote for boosting its usefulness rather than eliminating it though. And 312 is just too weird as it currently is.
I'll start with this one. I'm a smite-aligned, warding, capped cleric. My primary, and only, method of useful attack is 317 mixed in with 316 to control any population problems. It's terribly boring - although very effective. I'm certainly not advocating getting rid of this method because it is fun at times, but there are other times where I wish I had other alternatives. 302 just doesn't cut it anymore at higher levels. 306 is not useful since I have no spell aim (yet), and even then only useful on undead. 312 is a weird spell that I only use on creatures I'm trying to skin, and I certainly never use the charging aspect of the spell - who wants hard roundtime BEFORE attacking?? It's not nearly as powerful as 317 and only a few mana less, so 317 always gets the nod. There just isn't any variety of attack spells. It's 302 all the way until you have the mana power to consistently use 317. As others have pointed out, there's this awkward phase in the mid-levels where you're too old to be using 302 against like-level critters but too young to be using 317. And if you're smite-aligned, you're severely limited in your hunting ability at mid-levels because of the undead gap. There are definitely spell slots available to fill this void with - 309, 311, 312. When combining 309 and 315, 315 is too close to 317, so I'd use 309 as the "new" spell slot and leave 315 and the uncurse spot. 311 is just a fluff spell with no real mechanical usefulness (IMO) - I would not miss it if it entirely went away. I would vote for boosting its usefulness rather than eliminating it though. And 312 is just too weird as it currently is.
Years ago--when I was actually still playing Krakii on a regular basis... :)--the complaint that I had was that there were about nine hundred different ways for a Cleric to disable a target (when there were four different flavors of "Hold Undead", graduated by level, that certainly didn't help things)...
...but that since all of them were warding based, if the cleric couldn't hit with one, then s/he couldn't hit with any of 'em.
And there were a fair variety of ways to inflict damage...
...but since nearly all of them were warding based, if you couldn't inflict damage with one, then you couldn't with any of 'em.
AND the fact that the "disablers"...
...NONE of them do bupkis for the cleric casting, you know: follow-on Warding attacks.
(The 'disabled' part means either their physical defenses go down--useless for a warding caster--or they cannot then attack you, or do so at reduced effect, which does come in handy for staying alive longer.)
.
Forward to today.
Three different bolts available (water/anti-undead, web, & fire), several kinds of disablers still, and a stack of warding attacks.
Since I haven't actually used most of the new spells I have little feedback about how they good they are, but just seeing progress on things like Wizard spells (despite their complaints) or how Bard spells work together (despite my complaints about not seeing progress) does lead to some thoughts:
- Wizards have a warding setup spell to help with future bolts on individual targets. Since they primarily bolt and Ward to a lesser extent, and clerics are the opposite... switch it up for primary-Warding clerics who bolt to a lesser extent, and have the residual holy water from a successful cast help with future warding casts.
- Bards can lay out lower warding to the whole room; elemental casters have a single-target effect. Without duplicating those effects, perhaps something like a holy aura or nimbus that divinely weakens the resistance Clerics face. Duration spell on the cleric. Maybe a skill (Lore, MC, some combination of something) unlock of an existing spell? Tie it to Proselytize somehow, maybe.
- Combination magic. Water + Cold == encased in ice; cold + fire == break stone creatures. Things like this are fantastic. We already have web + fire == toasty beasties (I got lucky and had my runestaff flare fire... on a cast of Web). More like this.
- Maneuvers. Someone else said it, and I have long agreed. Rangers have had spike thorn, wizards have had boil earth (and now earthen fury) & used to have firestorm, sorcerers have implode, monks & paladins just hit with their warding spells anyhow because the TDs are set low for single-trainers. Having a different TYPE of attack would be an excellent addition.
- Lore unlock for pantheistic effects. (Basically, "Realm Flares" for spells.) When you're facing living, you get <this>, when you're facing undead, you get <that>. Use the most effective flare/crit type against target.
...but that since all of them were warding based, if the cleric couldn't hit with one, then s/he couldn't hit with any of 'em.
And there were a fair variety of ways to inflict damage...
...but since nearly all of them were warding based, if you couldn't inflict damage with one, then you couldn't with any of 'em.
AND the fact that the "disablers"...
...NONE of them do bupkis for the cleric casting, you know: follow-on Warding attacks.
(The 'disabled' part means either their physical defenses go down--useless for a warding caster--or they cannot then attack you, or do so at reduced effect, which does come in handy for staying alive longer.)
.
Forward to today.
Three different bolts available (water/anti-undead, web, & fire), several kinds of disablers still, and a stack of warding attacks.
Since I haven't actually used most of the new spells I have little feedback about how they good they are, but just seeing progress on things like Wizard spells (despite their complaints) or how Bard spells work together (despite my complaints about not seeing progress) does lead to some thoughts:
- Wizards have a warding setup spell to help with future bolts on individual targets. Since they primarily bolt and Ward to a lesser extent, and clerics are the opposite... switch it up for primary-Warding clerics who bolt to a lesser extent, and have the residual holy water from a successful cast help with future warding casts.
- Bards can lay out lower warding to the whole room; elemental casters have a single-target effect. Without duplicating those effects, perhaps something like a holy aura or nimbus that divinely weakens the resistance Clerics face. Duration spell on the cleric. Maybe a skill (Lore, MC, some combination of something) unlock of an existing spell? Tie it to Proselytize somehow, maybe.
- Combination magic. Water + Cold == encased in ice; cold + fire == break stone creatures. Things like this are fantastic. We already have web + fire == toasty beasties (I got lucky and had my runestaff flare fire... on a cast of Web). More like this.
- Maneuvers. Someone else said it, and I have long agreed. Rangers have had spike thorn, wizards have had boil earth (and now earthen fury) & used to have firestorm, sorcerers have implode, monks & paladins just hit with their warding spells anyhow because the TDs are set low for single-trainers. Having a different TYPE of attack would be an excellent addition.
- Lore unlock for pantheistic effects. (Basically, "Realm Flares" for spells.) When you're facing living, you get <this>, when you're facing undead, you get <that>. Use the most effective flare/crit type against target.
Well, I was going to save this until I had suggestions to go along with them, but since we're talking problems already...
1 - Warding boredom
Clerics can basically kill anything besides anti-magic creatures one-on-one by endlessly casting 302 (at lower levels) or 312 or 317 (at higher levels), which makes pure warding too simplistic to be enjoyable for me. I'd be perfectly fine with this if clerics were any good at pulling off other builds, so min-maxers and script hunters could have their power hunting warding builds while people looking for fun could do other things more effectively than they can currently (not as effectively as warding), but they can't. Speaking of that...
2 - Build diversity
Bolting doesn't feel rewarding--not merely compared to wizards, which is fine and should stay as it is, but also not compared to empaths or sorcerers. 306 is the worst of the three professions' unique bolts, there's no 1117 to effectively turn a single-target bolt into a multi-target bolt, and fewer options for mana recovery than sorcerers or empaths--no sacrifice ability or 3x Physical Fitness or Adrenal Surge to use with Sigil of Power--which is a problem since 111 and even 118 are relatively expensive early on.
And I do actually defend the value of bolting for clerics when people PM me asking (since they know I bolt), but I do have to mention to them that unless they use wands they likely won't be using any bolts other than 306 until they're a bit higher level. That puts them off more often than not.
Now, maybe clerics are supposed to be the worst of the pures at bolting since they have the highest training cost for Spell Aiming and worst Dexterity growth rate, but if that's the case, then the opposite should be true for swinging a weapon since they have the cheapest training costs and highest Strength growth rate. But instead they're the worst or second worst melee pure due to the combination of poorly scaling AS and nothing like 506 or 1117 that both result in more damage in less time, so this makes another possible build mechanically unattractive.
And just like with bolting but to an even greater extent, I'm one of the bigger defenders of war clerics being perfectly playable up to a point. Most people won't defend war clerics at all or, even if they do, they'll say it drops off around level 50. I'd extend that to level 80-85 and my main reason is that poor offenses are compensated for by 316 being so effective at dropping enemy defenses (not just DS, but also chances to outright evade/block/parry).
But at the highest levels that falls off because at cap more or less every enemy shakes off immobility right away. I do think the enemies' next actions are still delayed by Censure, but I don't think the other penalties of immobility like reduced DS or increased phantom warding margin last after the creature shakes it off.(I might be wrong on this, though; I'm not 100% sure.)
3 - Group hunting and mass damage
It seems like clerics are encouraged to be group hunters, as they have group spells like 307/310 and group 211/215/219. But they're not good at contributing damage in a group that hunts swarmy areas--which is what groups generally do. 335 is very slow*, 135 is very weak, and 111 splash damage is very weak. Mstriking is actually a solid option assuming the cleric is willing to train Multi-Opponent Combat and Combat Maneuvers and a weapon... but if that's the best I've got, then we have a problem.
Basically, we're lacking an instant-speed mass damage magical attack that does even so much as moderate damage (1630 and 435 are examples of what I'd call moderate damage), never mind anything better. Despite being semis, rangers and bards way outperform clerics magically in a group context with 635 and 1030--while also being significantly better at melee.
(*No amount of Summoning lore truly fixes the slowness of 335 in the context of group hunting. Summoning lore speeds up the first cycle, sure, but the cleric can't recast until all cycles of the previous cast have ended--and those cycles don't carry over as the group moves from room to room, so there's a lot of downtime.)
4 - Awkward or unsatisfying spells
Most people can think of the usual suspects, like how 309/315 can be merged, 330 doesn't do anything mechanically, 212/217 can be merged, 311 is overly expensive for a single-target disabler, etc., but to me it goes beyond those.
I like 312 a lot and defend it regularly from people who ask me if it sucks as much as they think it does, but its design leaves clerics lacking for a mid-level warding spell since it's not one--if anything, it's so dependent on high endrolls because of its cascading damage that it doesn't come into its own until the cleric has the mana to keep up 240, which is even later in life than the higher level 317.
340 gives a more amazing boost to other professions who have mass damage spells like 1630, 635, or 1030 (just the Truehand boost is enough) than it does to clerics, whose only mass spells do either little damage (135), no damage (217, 316), or slow damage over cycles that make the 340 charges pretty awkward to time (335).
350 is awesome flavor-wise, but because it can only be cast while dead, it's basically that neat thing I can do when I get killed one or two times a month, but doesn't impact my everyday hunting. I much prefer spells like 1650 or 650 or 950 that I can cast every hunt if I want to (multiple times per hunt in the case of 950). I even cast 1150 more often--and that's with an empath who never goes to town centers.
I assume convert choice is supposed to be primarily RP-based, but if that's true then 302 makes too strong a mechanical case for Smite or Bane depending on where a cleric intends to hunt growing up. (And I think I'm a minority in even sticking up for Smite at all, but the West is riddled with undead from level 0 to 63.)
Major Spiritual feels pretty unfulfilling as a mostly-exclusive circle due to an abundance of very narrow spells in 204, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 212, and 216. (I bet a lot of people would add 217 to that list too, but I stand by Mass Interference as a highly underrated spell.)
Lastly, in general I feel an overall disappointment with high-level cleric spells. I'd probably be fine with any two or three things out of 320 not existing, 325 being utility, 330 being non-mechanical, 335 being slow, 340 being kinda underwhelming, and 350 being rarely cast, as no spell circle is perfect, but all of these being true leaves me pretty disgruntled with Cleric Base.
5 - Society synergy (mechanically speaking)
I feel that every other profession has compelling mechanical reasons to join at least two of the societies if not all three, but not clerics because basically nothing in our arsenal has powerful synergy with anything in Voln or Sunfist.
(Some examples of synergy to illustrate what I'm talking about... Powerful synergy = Adrenal Surge + Sunfist, monk + Voln, wizard + warcamping + Sunfist crit weighting. Moderately powerful synergy = Rejuvenate + Sunfist. Weak synergy = Symbol of Renewal + 340.)
Combine that with bolting and swinging being worse than other pures, and Soul Ward being so powerful that it more or less negates the defensive disadvantages of low spirit, and I think there's too one-sided a mechanical case for choosing the other society--even though there are countless RP cases for avoiding it.
6 - The sanctification mechanic
Sanctification, white ora, and eonake are almost pointless for clerics despite being exclusive to only them and paladins. Armor and shields literally do nothing--and for that matter I think armor doesn't do anything for paladins either besides one or two maneuvers that I've yet to see anyone use, so there's potential for both professions on that front.
As for weapons, a non-flaring sanctified weapon (including runestaves) is actually worse for clerics than a blessable one in a lot of cases since at least the latter can be given holy water flares by the cleric at any time. The exceptions where sanctification wins out would be where the cleric either A) has a paladin to regularly hunt with, B) has 1604 scrolls stockpiled, or C) is at the highest end of melee weapons where either they have so much weighting that blessings are no longer an option.
On top of all that, sanctification makes enchanting and ensorcelling more difficult and expensive, makes weighting more expensive (in the case of melee weapons), and prevents player enchanting beyond 7x. It's significantly easier to take a weapon of vultite, mithril, etc. to 10x and add sanctification than it is to take a sanctified weapon to 10x.
(That problem too applies equally to paladins if not more; in the long run it's better in many ways to sanctify with 1625 than to start with a weapon or metal that's already sanctified.)
7 - The similarity of empaths
Clerics and empaths both being primarily single-target-warding-based pures and sharing two spell circles makes them the two most mechanically similar professions in my opinion. And I figure that a lot of other players see this too since people PM me asking "should I make a cleric or empath?" more often than any other profession choice question like warrior-or-paladin or rogue-or-ranger.
Incidentally, almost every time I check WHO PROFESSION CLERIC/EMPATH back to back, there are anywhere from 5-20 more empaths online. I'm guessing that's because they're similar to clerics while not having troubles with #1, 2, and 5 above--on top of extra perks like being able to cast from Empath Base regardless of injuries, lots of creatures having lower empath TDs than cleric TDs, and more opportunities to gain exp without leaving town since healing is more often needed than rising.
That's not to say clerics have no advantages at all, but it looks like players overall (and I'm one of them) find empaths the more interesting profession.
These things are all fixable for me, I'm sure--in fact, I'd bet that even 2-3 well-crafted spells could make me do a complete 180 on clerics.
Right now I'm thinking about a wearable spell that's sort of an inverted Soul Ward, where instead of blocking the first attack every enemy makes against a cleric, it would improve the first attack a cleric makes against every enemy with something like increased damage, an additional attack, an additional flare, a magical maneuver, etc. Depending on the fine details, this one thing alone could probably resolve my entire list above besides #6--or even everything including #6 if it had an additional bonus when used with sanctified gear.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
1 - Warding boredom
Clerics can basically kill anything besides anti-magic creatures one-on-one by endlessly casting 302 (at lower levels) or 312 or 317 (at higher levels), which makes pure warding too simplistic to be enjoyable for me. I'd be perfectly fine with this if clerics were any good at pulling off other builds, so min-maxers and script hunters could have their power hunting warding builds while people looking for fun could do other things more effectively than they can currently (not as effectively as warding), but they can't. Speaking of that...
2 - Build diversity
Bolting doesn't feel rewarding--not merely compared to wizards, which is fine and should stay as it is, but also not compared to empaths or sorcerers. 306 is the worst of the three professions' unique bolts, there's no 1117 to effectively turn a single-target bolt into a multi-target bolt, and fewer options for mana recovery than sorcerers or empaths--no sacrifice ability or 3x Physical Fitness or Adrenal Surge to use with Sigil of Power--which is a problem since 111 and even 118 are relatively expensive early on.
And I do actually defend the value of bolting for clerics when people PM me asking (since they know I bolt), but I do have to mention to them that unless they use wands they likely won't be using any bolts other than 306 until they're a bit higher level. That puts them off more often than not.
Now, maybe clerics are supposed to be the worst of the pures at bolting since they have the highest training cost for Spell Aiming and worst Dexterity growth rate, but if that's the case, then the opposite should be true for swinging a weapon since they have the cheapest training costs and highest Strength growth rate. But instead they're the worst or second worst melee pure due to the combination of poorly scaling AS and nothing like 506 or 1117 that both result in more damage in less time, so this makes another possible build mechanically unattractive.
And just like with bolting but to an even greater extent, I'm one of the bigger defenders of war clerics being perfectly playable up to a point. Most people won't defend war clerics at all or, even if they do, they'll say it drops off around level 50. I'd extend that to level 80-85 and my main reason is that poor offenses are compensated for by 316 being so effective at dropping enemy defenses (not just DS, but also chances to outright evade/block/parry).
But at the highest levels that falls off because at cap more or less every enemy shakes off immobility right away. I do think the enemies' next actions are still delayed by Censure, but I don't think the other penalties of immobility like reduced DS or increased phantom warding margin last after the creature shakes it off.(I might be wrong on this, though; I'm not 100% sure.)
3 - Group hunting and mass damage
It seems like clerics are encouraged to be group hunters, as they have group spells like 307/310 and group 211/215/219. But they're not good at contributing damage in a group that hunts swarmy areas--which is what groups generally do. 335 is very slow*, 135 is very weak, and 111 splash damage is very weak. Mstriking is actually a solid option assuming the cleric is willing to train Multi-Opponent Combat and Combat Maneuvers and a weapon... but if that's the best I've got, then we have a problem.
Basically, we're lacking an instant-speed mass damage magical attack that does even so much as moderate damage (1630 and 435 are examples of what I'd call moderate damage), never mind anything better. Despite being semis, rangers and bards way outperform clerics magically in a group context with 635 and 1030--while also being significantly better at melee.
(*No amount of Summoning lore truly fixes the slowness of 335 in the context of group hunting. Summoning lore speeds up the first cycle, sure, but the cleric can't recast until all cycles of the previous cast have ended--and those cycles don't carry over as the group moves from room to room, so there's a lot of downtime.)
4 - Awkward or unsatisfying spells
Most people can think of the usual suspects, like how 309/315 can be merged, 330 doesn't do anything mechanically, 212/217 can be merged, 311 is overly expensive for a single-target disabler, etc., but to me it goes beyond those.
I like 312 a lot and defend it regularly from people who ask me if it sucks as much as they think it does, but its design leaves clerics lacking for a mid-level warding spell since it's not one--if anything, it's so dependent on high endrolls because of its cascading damage that it doesn't come into its own until the cleric has the mana to keep up 240, which is even later in life than the higher level 317.
340 gives a more amazing boost to other professions who have mass damage spells like 1630, 635, or 1030 (just the Truehand boost is enough) than it does to clerics, whose only mass spells do either little damage (135), no damage (217, 316), or slow damage over cycles that make the 340 charges pretty awkward to time (335).
350 is awesome flavor-wise, but because it can only be cast while dead, it's basically that neat thing I can do when I get killed one or two times a month, but doesn't impact my everyday hunting. I much prefer spells like 1650 or 650 or 950 that I can cast every hunt if I want to (multiple times per hunt in the case of 950). I even cast 1150 more often--and that's with an empath who never goes to town centers.
I assume convert choice is supposed to be primarily RP-based, but if that's true then 302 makes too strong a mechanical case for Smite or Bane depending on where a cleric intends to hunt growing up. (And I think I'm a minority in even sticking up for Smite at all, but the West is riddled with undead from level 0 to 63.)
Major Spiritual feels pretty unfulfilling as a mostly-exclusive circle due to an abundance of very narrow spells in 204, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 212, and 216. (I bet a lot of people would add 217 to that list too, but I stand by Mass Interference as a highly underrated spell.)
Lastly, in general I feel an overall disappointment with high-level cleric spells. I'd probably be fine with any two or three things out of 320 not existing, 325 being utility, 330 being non-mechanical, 335 being slow, 340 being kinda underwhelming, and 350 being rarely cast, as no spell circle is perfect, but all of these being true leaves me pretty disgruntled with Cleric Base.
5 - Society synergy (mechanically speaking)
I feel that every other profession has compelling mechanical reasons to join at least two of the societies if not all three, but not clerics because basically nothing in our arsenal has powerful synergy with anything in Voln or Sunfist.
(Some examples of synergy to illustrate what I'm talking about... Powerful synergy = Adrenal Surge + Sunfist, monk + Voln, wizard + warcamping + Sunfist crit weighting. Moderately powerful synergy = Rejuvenate + Sunfist. Weak synergy = Symbol of Renewal + 340.)
Combine that with bolting and swinging being worse than other pures, and Soul Ward being so powerful that it more or less negates the defensive disadvantages of low spirit, and I think there's too one-sided a mechanical case for choosing the other society--even though there are countless RP cases for avoiding it.
6 - The sanctification mechanic
Sanctification, white ora, and eonake are almost pointless for clerics despite being exclusive to only them and paladins. Armor and shields literally do nothing--and for that matter I think armor doesn't do anything for paladins either besides one or two maneuvers that I've yet to see anyone use, so there's potential for both professions on that front.
As for weapons, a non-flaring sanctified weapon (including runestaves) is actually worse for clerics than a blessable one in a lot of cases since at least the latter can be given holy water flares by the cleric at any time. The exceptions where sanctification wins out would be where the cleric either A) has a paladin to regularly hunt with, B) has 1604 scrolls stockpiled, or C) is at the highest end of melee weapons where either they have so much weighting that blessings are no longer an option.
On top of all that, sanctification makes enchanting and ensorcelling more difficult and expensive, makes weighting more expensive (in the case of melee weapons), and prevents player enchanting beyond 7x. It's significantly easier to take a weapon of vultite, mithril, etc. to 10x and add sanctification than it is to take a sanctified weapon to 10x.
(That problem too applies equally to paladins if not more; in the long run it's better in many ways to sanctify with 1625 than to start with a weapon or metal that's already sanctified.)
7 - The similarity of empaths
Clerics and empaths both being primarily single-target-warding-based pures and sharing two spell circles makes them the two most mechanically similar professions in my opinion. And I figure that a lot of other players see this too since people PM me asking "should I make a cleric or empath?" more often than any other profession choice question like warrior-or-paladin or rogue-or-ranger.
Incidentally, almost every time I check WHO PROFESSION CLERIC/EMPATH back to back, there are anywhere from 5-20 more empaths online. I'm guessing that's because they're similar to clerics while not having troubles with #1, 2, and 5 above--on top of extra perks like being able to cast from Empath Base regardless of injuries, lots of creatures having lower empath TDs than cleric TDs, and more opportunities to gain exp without leaving town since healing is more often needed than rising.
That's not to say clerics have no advantages at all, but it looks like players overall (and I'm one of them) find empaths the more interesting profession.
These things are all fixable for me, I'm sure--in fact, I'd bet that even 2-3 well-crafted spells could make me do a complete 180 on clerics.
Right now I'm thinking about a wearable spell that's sort of an inverted Soul Ward, where instead of blocking the first attack every enemy makes against a cleric, it would improve the first attack a cleric makes against every enemy with something like increased damage, an additional attack, an additional flare, a magical maneuver, etc. Depending on the fine details, this one thing alone could probably resolve my entire list above besides #6--or even everything including #6 if it had an additional bonus when used with sanctified gear.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
I agree with Candid.
I have a capped cleric I haven't hunted in over a year simply because hunting him is slow and boring compared to my wizard or sorcerer.
My cleric is Sheru aligned (bane) and his crits are crush. He has over 110 wisdom and over 80 religion lores. The religion lores give a very noticeable return on 302, 306(on undead), 312, and 317. However, TD of most capped monsters seems high for the cleric circle and our ability to attack swarms is a joke. 335 is useless compared to other classes high level AOE spells. I find the damage a joke and the time frame to complete all its cycles too risky of a wait. That's coupling it with 316. It's much easier for me to hunt my 2 accounts together with my cleric 316ing and my warmage doing the actual dps.
111 is a great ball spell if you put 100 lores in it.
Due to the critter high TD and lack of effective bolts vs living, I ended up getting the 1707 sk runestaff just to fill the gap between 306 and 111. 1707 has become my main hunting spell vs most stuff.
Also, do we really need neutralize curse and remove curse? Can't we consolidate them into one spell?
Good list!
+3 Leafi!
With the cast/evoke mechanic, Neutralize & Remove Curse should absolutely be the same spell at this point; right there, we've opened up the capability to add <something to fix any of that list of issues>.
Commune shouldn't be a spell slot, it should be a profession ability. Don't want it being done all the time? Have deity-specific "notoriety" generators, so you can only Commune if you have killed enough of your god's nemeses.
(So that's another spell slot opened to enable a fix.)
And since Commune departed the 20th slot, there's still another spot to permit a fix.
.
So right there you've got the ability to clear up nearly half of her list... :)
+3 Leafi!
With the cast/evoke mechanic, Neutralize & Remove Curse should absolutely be the same spell at this point; right there, we've opened up the capability to add <something to fix any of that list of issues>.
Commune shouldn't be a spell slot, it should be a profession ability. Don't want it being done all the time? Have deity-specific "notoriety" generators, so you can only Commune if you have killed enough of your god's nemeses.
(So that's another spell slot opened to enable a fix.)
And since Commune departed the 20th slot, there's still another spot to permit a fix.
.
So right there you've got the ability to clear up nearly half of her list... :)
A few weeks ago I said I'd come up with two dozen suggestions, and out of sheer stubbornness I was going to do it.
But then I caught myself padding my numbers with some ideas that even I didn't really like, so... yeah, forget that. :P Instead, below are 11 ideas plus I tossed in 5 that I had from last year in case any of them still sound interesting today or they could be reused as parts of a spell instead of an entire spell.
A few quick smaller-scale ideas:
* New 330 mass maneuver spell that's basically a hybrid of 435, 311, and 135. Hits all ungrouped; similar damage to 435 but slightly more likely to get a fatal crit; X% chance to force kneeling, Y% chance to blind. Would help with problems #3 and 7.
* New 330 self-knowledge spell that's basically 208 except it can only steal a spiritual spell, but will learn it as self-knowledge for X amount of time. CAST 330 to cast that spell at its normal cost; EVOKE 330 to reset and learn a different spell. Would help with problems #2, 4, and 7 at least, and potentially 1 and 3 depending on implementation.
* See everything I wrote here about the endless possibilities of cleric competition for the Ensorcell slot:
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Clerics/view/426
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Clerics/view/427
Would help with problem #4 and 7 at least and potentially 5 or 6 depending on implementation.
Older ideas from last year: (some small-scale, some not)
* DoT maneuver spell in several waves where 101+ endrolls do damage and even lower endrolls can stun, setting up for followup waves. Wouldn't help with any particular problems other than maybe #1 since it would be a little more flavor and variety.
* Maneuver spell that weaponizes 130/225 and disrupts the enemy's body by teleporting it around. Wouldn't help with any particular problems other than maybe #1 since it would be a little more flavor and variety.
* Maneuver spell in the 320 slot with CAST and CHANNEL versions. CAST has multiple cycles of damage against a single enemy; 240 can recast it, but 340 does nothing. CHANNEL has one cycle of damage, but can splash to other enemies based on lore training; 340 can make it stronger, but 240 won't recast. Both versions are strengthened by more offensive stances. Would help with problems #1, 3, 4, and 7.
* Powerful spirit-sacrificing AoE maneuver spell with a cooldown in the 320 slot. Would help with problems #1, 3, and 7, to a certain extent 4, and potentially 5 depending on the details of the cooldown and the spirit usage (respectively affecting viability in warcamps for Sunfist clerics or how frequently Symbol of Renewal can power it in Voln).
* Spell in the 320 slot that infuses the cleric with charges of offensive divine energy that can be released at a later time with FLARE. Similar to the self-cast version of 909. Wouldn't help with any particular problems other than maybe #1 since it would be a little more flavor and variety.
More complex ideas:
New 308 - Patron's Rebuke (or this could go in 309, but since the next idea on my list uses the 315 slot, here I'm working with the current 308 being merged into 305 as CAST/EVOKE/CHANNEL)
Single-target hybrid warding/maneuver spell. The initial CS cast does damage and, on a high enough endroll, can take away some of the enemy's spirit. After the initial attack, additional cycles of maneuver-based damage follow, similar to 1110's warding cycles following the initial bolt; if those get a high enough endroll, they can inflict sheer fear. (Or a similar effect to it, since I'm not sure if it's even possible for creatures to experience sheer fear.)
The sheer fear and spirit drain don't work against player characters and the spell itself doesn't work against player characters of the same pantheon. Flavor-wise, the idea is that the cleric's patron strikes with such overwhelming power that even the enemy's spirit writhes with pain.
Would help with problem #1.
New 315 ideas - Reprisal or Rallying Bolt (Assumes 315 could be merged into 309.)
Reprisal concept:
Casts a bolt and, for every X enemies in the room, it can also cast an additional bolt at another enemy for Y mana, up to a maximum of (Spiritual Mana Control bonus/Z) bolts at once.
Obviously the goal isn't to make a bolt spell on par with 518 while being in a lower slot for a less bolting-oriented profession, so at least one out of X, Y, and Z would probably be pretty high. Or it could have a cooldown or some other limiting factor.
Flavor-wise, the idea is that when the cleric is faced with overwhelming odds, their Arkati/spirit provides the power to fight back.
Would help with problems #2, 3, 5, and 7.
Rallying Bolt concept:
Same as the above, but instead of the number of bolts increasing with number of enemies, it increases with number of group members. Flavor-wise, the cleric makes a sort of sacred alliance with others of similar belief and draws strength from that. I don't like this idea quite as much as Reprisal, though, since it's easier for a player to find swarmy areas than find a consistent group to hunt with.
319 second mode or New 330 - Divine Offensive
319 second mode version:
Clerics can PRAY SOUL WARD to switch between Soul Ward and Divine Indignation. (A non-cleric who got Soul Ward from a scroll or imbed can't do this.) Switching costs no mana and has no RT, but can't be done during hard or soft RT.
When Divine Indignation is active, a cleric will have a base chance of X%, for the first attack made against an enemy to also flare with an SMR-based effect. However, the chances of the evanescent shield activating to block attacks decreases to (100-X)%.
X is a selected number which clerics decide on with PRAY DIVINE INDIGNATION #, with a number from 0 to 50. (Or whatever makes sense for balance.) It can also be increased by being in more offensive stances. Switching the number costs no mana and has no RT, but can't be done during hard or soft RT.
INFUSE SPIRIT can use 1 spirit and reset Divine Indignation to be able to activate again.
Flavor-wise, the idea is that the cleric manipulates the latent energy of the evanescent shield from Soul and weaves it into offensive abilities.
Would help with problems #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7.
330 version:
Last year I proposed something similar to above, but it was a short-duration spell that had a chance (instead of a guarantee) of adding a maneuver-based flare to the first offensive action against each enemy, and also had a chance to add an AS/CS boost. The downside, other than mana cost, was sacrificing some of the cleric's DS and TD and forcing into a higher stance.
Blessings lore would increase the AS/CS boost, Religion lore would decrease DS/TD penalties and allow going down to lower stances, and Summoning lore would increase flare rate and flare strength.
New 212 - Valiant Flare / Chaotic Bolt / Indignant Assault (assumes 212 could be merged into 217)
A bolt with three different versions depending on whether it's CAST, EVOKEd, or CHANNELed.
CAST = Valiant Flare, a single-target fire bolt that gives a short buff to AS and maneuver defense. The buff gets more powerful with Blessings lore and the duration refreshes every time the spell is CAST.
EVOKE = Chaotic Bolt, a splashing plasma bolt that has a chance to inflict a random condition out of calm, dispel, forced offensive stance, immobility, silence, or web. With enough Summoning lore, the cleric/empath can choose the condition (like selecting an herb with 1118).
CHANNEL = Indignant Assault, a multi-target bolt of pure concussion damage that can strike additional enemies at a cost of additional mana per enemy. Has a chance to inflict stun.
Would help with problems #2 and 3.
Indignant Assault only doing concussion damage is mostly because 1117 exists and makes it tough to balance any mass attack in Major Spiritual without making it too weak for clerics or too strong for empaths. But speaking of mass attacks in Major Spiritual...
235 - Plasma Burst
A hybrid mass warding/maneuver spell. For every endroll of X past 100, it attacks with one cycle of a maneuver, whose strength increases based on Spell Aiming bonus and Spiritual Mana Control bonus.
Would help with problem #3 in a self-explanatory way.
Would help with problem #2 in giving more payoff for training Spell Aiming, more payoff for training beyond 1x SMC pre-cap, and more payoff for training Major Spiritual. (Currently, once you get to 40 ranks of both spiritual circles, Minor is the better one to train up to 67 ranks first since it gives +1 DS each from 102 and 120 every 2 ranks while Major Spiritual only gives +1 DS from 202 every 3 ranks.)
Would help with problem #4 in two ways: A) giving another big payoff to Major Spiritual besides 240, and B) making 340 more useful to clerics. Partly that's just by virtue of it being a mass spell that works with 340 in a less awkward way than 335, but it's also key that the CS boost and Truehand effect are proportionately more important when a spell is cast from Major Spiritual CS, where the warding margins are smaller than if it was cast from Cleric CS.
Note: this might seem like a simple idea, but I spent more time on it than anything else. Comparing clerics and empaths, overall I'd see 1117 + 235 being the superior room-clearer with the downside of taking two casts and eating through mana immediately, while 340 + 235 would happen in one cast and be usable more times per hunt, but have less raw power.
250 - Piercing Aura
A short-term buff with three versions: Blessings, Religion, and Summoning. All versions give an X% chance for your attacks' damage factors to be treated as if the opponent was unarmored. (Note: warding spells have damage factors, from what I understand, but I'm not clear on whether they're affected by armor. If they aren't, this would still strengthen warding spells too, but in some different way.)
The overall effect lasts for Y minutes and the versions can be switched between during that time for Z mana/RT(/whatever makes sense for balance).
The Blessings version adds a chance for your attacks to trigger a short-term phantom Wisdom bonus if your attack was a warding spell, Dexterity bonus if it was a bolt or ranged, or Strength bonus if it was melee.
The Religion version adds a chance for your attacks to flare with a holy critical. (I lean toward allowing this to work for empaths too if they've converted, but I can see the case against it. Maybe it could do something different for empaths than clerics.)
The Summoning version adds a chance to reduce the RT of your offensive actions.
Flavor-wise, the idea is that the cleric or empath can be empowered by local spirits to bypass all armor and strike directly at an enemy's essence.
Would help with problem #1 and 4 at least and potentially 2 and 3 depending on implementation. This is inspired by spells like 520/650/1650 where a player can use different features of a single spell at different times.
Lastly, I want to briefly mention an idea that I think Krakii was the one to propose, which was an entire "spell maneuver" system that would be similar to combat maneuvers and shield maneuvers, with different active skills and passive abilities to take ranks in.
First, I love the idea. I think it could do wonders for differentiation within a profession if done right and would probably have more potential than any one or even any four new cleric spells to create more of a difference between clerics and empaths.
That said, I'm guessing it would take ages to create, so I haven't spent any serious time thinking about it since I'm looking for shorter-term solutions. I'm mainly bringing it up in recognition that there are ways to shake things up besides adding new spells.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
But then I caught myself padding my numbers with some ideas that even I didn't really like, so... yeah, forget that. :P Instead, below are 11 ideas plus I tossed in 5 that I had from last year in case any of them still sound interesting today or they could be reused as parts of a spell instead of an entire spell.
A few quick smaller-scale ideas:
* New 330 mass maneuver spell that's basically a hybrid of 435, 311, and 135. Hits all ungrouped; similar damage to 435 but slightly more likely to get a fatal crit; X% chance to force kneeling, Y% chance to blind. Would help with problems #3 and 7.
* New 330 self-knowledge spell that's basically 208 except it can only steal a spiritual spell, but will learn it as self-knowledge for X amount of time. CAST 330 to cast that spell at its normal cost; EVOKE 330 to reset and learn a different spell. Would help with problems #2, 4, and 7 at least, and potentially 1 and 3 depending on implementation.
* See everything I wrote here about the endless possibilities of cleric competition for the Ensorcell slot:
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Clerics/view/426
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Clerics/view/427
Would help with problem #4 and 7 at least and potentially 5 or 6 depending on implementation.
Older ideas from last year: (some small-scale, some not)
* DoT maneuver spell in several waves where 101+ endrolls do damage and even lower endrolls can stun, setting up for followup waves. Wouldn't help with any particular problems other than maybe #1 since it would be a little more flavor and variety.
* Maneuver spell that weaponizes 130/225 and disrupts the enemy's body by teleporting it around. Wouldn't help with any particular problems other than maybe #1 since it would be a little more flavor and variety.
* Maneuver spell in the 320 slot with CAST and CHANNEL versions. CAST has multiple cycles of damage against a single enemy; 240 can recast it, but 340 does nothing. CHANNEL has one cycle of damage, but can splash to other enemies based on lore training; 340 can make it stronger, but 240 won't recast. Both versions are strengthened by more offensive stances. Would help with problems #1, 3, 4, and 7.
* Powerful spirit-sacrificing AoE maneuver spell with a cooldown in the 320 slot. Would help with problems #1, 3, and 7, to a certain extent 4, and potentially 5 depending on the details of the cooldown and the spirit usage (respectively affecting viability in warcamps for Sunfist clerics or how frequently Symbol of Renewal can power it in Voln).
* Spell in the 320 slot that infuses the cleric with charges of offensive divine energy that can be released at a later time with FLARE. Similar to the self-cast version of 909. Wouldn't help with any particular problems other than maybe #1 since it would be a little more flavor and variety.
More complex ideas:
New 308 - Patron's Rebuke (or this could go in 309, but since the next idea on my list uses the 315 slot, here I'm working with the current 308 being merged into 305 as CAST/EVOKE/CHANNEL)
Single-target hybrid warding/maneuver spell. The initial CS cast does damage and, on a high enough endroll, can take away some of the enemy's spirit. After the initial attack, additional cycles of maneuver-based damage follow, similar to 1110's warding cycles following the initial bolt; if those get a high enough endroll, they can inflict sheer fear. (Or a similar effect to it, since I'm not sure if it's even possible for creatures to experience sheer fear.)
The sheer fear and spirit drain don't work against player characters and the spell itself doesn't work against player characters of the same pantheon. Flavor-wise, the idea is that the cleric's patron strikes with such overwhelming power that even the enemy's spirit writhes with pain.
Would help with problem #1.
New 315 ideas - Reprisal or Rallying Bolt (Assumes 315 could be merged into 309.)
Reprisal concept:
Casts a bolt and, for every X enemies in the room, it can also cast an additional bolt at another enemy for Y mana, up to a maximum of (Spiritual Mana Control bonus/Z) bolts at once.
Obviously the goal isn't to make a bolt spell on par with 518 while being in a lower slot for a less bolting-oriented profession, so at least one out of X, Y, and Z would probably be pretty high. Or it could have a cooldown or some other limiting factor.
Flavor-wise, the idea is that when the cleric is faced with overwhelming odds, their Arkati/spirit provides the power to fight back.
Would help with problems #2, 3, 5, and 7.
Rallying Bolt concept:
Same as the above, but instead of the number of bolts increasing with number of enemies, it increases with number of group members. Flavor-wise, the cleric makes a sort of sacred alliance with others of similar belief and draws strength from that. I don't like this idea quite as much as Reprisal, though, since it's easier for a player to find swarmy areas than find a consistent group to hunt with.
319 second mode or New 330 - Divine Offensive
319 second mode version:
Clerics can PRAY SOUL WARD to switch between Soul Ward and Divine Indignation. (A non-cleric who got Soul Ward from a scroll or imbed can't do this.) Switching costs no mana and has no RT, but can't be done during hard or soft RT.
When Divine Indignation is active, a cleric will have a base chance of X%, for the first attack made against an enemy to also flare with an SMR-based effect. However, the chances of the evanescent shield activating to block attacks decreases to (100-X)%.
X is a selected number which clerics decide on with PRAY DIVINE INDIGNATION #, with a number from 0 to 50. (Or whatever makes sense for balance.) It can also be increased by being in more offensive stances. Switching the number costs no mana and has no RT, but can't be done during hard or soft RT.
INFUSE SPIRIT can use 1 spirit and reset Divine Indignation to be able to activate again.
Flavor-wise, the idea is that the cleric manipulates the latent energy of the evanescent shield from Soul and weaves it into offensive abilities.
Would help with problems #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7.
330 version:
Last year I proposed something similar to above, but it was a short-duration spell that had a chance (instead of a guarantee) of adding a maneuver-based flare to the first offensive action against each enemy, and also had a chance to add an AS/CS boost. The downside, other than mana cost, was sacrificing some of the cleric's DS and TD and forcing into a higher stance.
Blessings lore would increase the AS/CS boost, Religion lore would decrease DS/TD penalties and allow going down to lower stances, and Summoning lore would increase flare rate and flare strength.
New 212 - Valiant Flare / Chaotic Bolt / Indignant Assault (assumes 212 could be merged into 217)
A bolt with three different versions depending on whether it's CAST, EVOKEd, or CHANNELed.
CAST = Valiant Flare, a single-target fire bolt that gives a short buff to AS and maneuver defense. The buff gets more powerful with Blessings lore and the duration refreshes every time the spell is CAST.
EVOKE = Chaotic Bolt, a splashing plasma bolt that has a chance to inflict a random condition out of calm, dispel, forced offensive stance, immobility, silence, or web. With enough Summoning lore, the cleric/empath can choose the condition (like selecting an herb with 1118).
CHANNEL = Indignant Assault, a multi-target bolt of pure concussion damage that can strike additional enemies at a cost of additional mana per enemy. Has a chance to inflict stun.
Would help with problems #2 and 3.
Indignant Assault only doing concussion damage is mostly because 1117 exists and makes it tough to balance any mass attack in Major Spiritual without making it too weak for clerics or too strong for empaths. But speaking of mass attacks in Major Spiritual...
235 - Plasma Burst
A hybrid mass warding/maneuver spell. For every endroll of X past 100, it attacks with one cycle of a maneuver, whose strength increases based on Spell Aiming bonus and Spiritual Mana Control bonus.
Would help with problem #3 in a self-explanatory way.
Would help with problem #2 in giving more payoff for training Spell Aiming, more payoff for training beyond 1x SMC pre-cap, and more payoff for training Major Spiritual. (Currently, once you get to 40 ranks of both spiritual circles, Minor is the better one to train up to 67 ranks first since it gives +1 DS each from 102 and 120 every 2 ranks while Major Spiritual only gives +1 DS from 202 every 3 ranks.)
Would help with problem #4 in two ways: A) giving another big payoff to Major Spiritual besides 240, and B) making 340 more useful to clerics. Partly that's just by virtue of it being a mass spell that works with 340 in a less awkward way than 335, but it's also key that the CS boost and Truehand effect are proportionately more important when a spell is cast from Major Spiritual CS, where the warding margins are smaller than if it was cast from Cleric CS.
Note: this might seem like a simple idea, but I spent more time on it than anything else. Comparing clerics and empaths, overall I'd see 1117 + 235 being the superior room-clearer with the downside of taking two casts and eating through mana immediately, while 340 + 235 would happen in one cast and be usable more times per hunt, but have less raw power.
250 - Piercing Aura
A short-term buff with three versions: Blessings, Religion, and Summoning. All versions give an X% chance for your attacks' damage factors to be treated as if the opponent was unarmored. (Note: warding spells have damage factors, from what I understand, but I'm not clear on whether they're affected by armor. If they aren't, this would still strengthen warding spells too, but in some different way.)
The overall effect lasts for Y minutes and the versions can be switched between during that time for Z mana/RT(/whatever makes sense for balance).
The Blessings version adds a chance for your attacks to trigger a short-term phantom Wisdom bonus if your attack was a warding spell, Dexterity bonus if it was a bolt or ranged, or Strength bonus if it was melee.
The Religion version adds a chance for your attacks to flare with a holy critical. (I lean toward allowing this to work for empaths too if they've converted, but I can see the case against it. Maybe it could do something different for empaths than clerics.)
The Summoning version adds a chance to reduce the RT of your offensive actions.
Flavor-wise, the idea is that the cleric or empath can be empowered by local spirits to bypass all armor and strike directly at an enemy's essence.
Would help with problem #1 and 4 at least and potentially 2 and 3 depending on implementation. This is inspired by spells like 520/650/1650 where a player can use different features of a single spell at different times.
Lastly, I want to briefly mention an idea that I think Krakii was the one to propose, which was an entire "spell maneuver" system that would be similar to combat maneuvers and shield maneuvers, with different active skills and passive abilities to take ranks in.
First, I love the idea. I think it could do wonders for differentiation within a profession if done right and would probably have more potential than any one or even any four new cleric spells to create more of a difference between clerics and empaths.
That said, I'm guessing it would take ages to create, so I haven't spent any serious time thinking about it since I'm looking for shorter-term solutions. I'm mainly bringing it up in recognition that there are ways to shake things up besides adding new spells.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
I think I remember talking about "SpellMans" as a possible extension of capabilities back when the Wizards folder was long on whining but less so on ideas scattered on the ground.
We already had CMan, and then ShieldMan came along and let a bunch of points get shifted over there to the benefit of the Warriors (primarily) while still leaving semis--and especially pures--paying both more points to learn any given CMans, and more training points to get the points for CMans.
Another prolific poster of ideas--whose name escapes me right now--had something similar with his "performance" series of suggestions for SpellSongs. (Basically, SongMans.)
.
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One thing that I would like to see more generally across GemStone's magic system, is synergy. (Alternatively, Combos. Ritual magic. Chain effects. Call it what you like.) Currently, things like Water spell Ice spell makes frozen creature, or Fire + Cold on stone makes breakage, or two Realms' Dispel makes damage.
I think that there are WORLDS of possibilities with this. (Bless + Ensorcel, both cast on a creature. Disease + Pestilence. Whatever.)
.
One thing that GMs seem not to have internalized is that Damage Over Time effects are losers. Poison flares are no good (certainly the cloud, that works like an elemental flare... ambushing daggers are on another scale entirely), Sandstorm & Maelstrom only get good when you have accelerators on them, et cetera.
Adding new effects that involve DoT is basically time down the scuppers, because creatures break out of status effects (you know: what we're disabling them with in order to have time for damage to happen) with ludicrous ease. However, they work just great against characters...
But then again so do crits. When a single crit can do 70-90hp on top of the actual combat damage, and three playable races have racial maximums of 90, 100, & 100, the disparity between "what works on characters" and "what works on 850+hp creatures" is too great.
We already had CMan, and then ShieldMan came along and let a bunch of points get shifted over there to the benefit of the Warriors (primarily) while still leaving semis--and especially pures--paying both more points to learn any given CMans, and more training points to get the points for CMans.
Another prolific poster of ideas--whose name escapes me right now--had something similar with his "performance" series of suggestions for SpellSongs. (Basically, SongMans.)
.
.
One thing that I would like to see more generally across GemStone's magic system, is synergy. (Alternatively, Combos. Ritual magic. Chain effects. Call it what you like.) Currently, things like Water spell Ice spell makes frozen creature, or Fire + Cold on stone makes breakage, or two Realms' Dispel makes damage.
I think that there are WORLDS of possibilities with this. (Bless + Ensorcel, both cast on a creature. Disease + Pestilence. Whatever.)
.
One thing that GMs seem not to have internalized is that Damage Over Time effects are losers. Poison flares are no good (certainly the cloud, that works like an elemental flare... ambushing daggers are on another scale entirely), Sandstorm & Maelstrom only get good when you have accelerators on them, et cetera.
Adding new effects that involve DoT is basically time down the scuppers, because creatures break out of status effects (you know: what we're disabling them with in order to have time for damage to happen) with ludicrous ease. However, they work just great against characters...
But then again so do crits. When a single crit can do 70-90hp on top of the actual combat damage, and three playable races have racial maximums of 90, 100, & 100, the disparity between "what works on characters" and "what works on 850+hp creatures" is too great.
>1 - Warding boredom
>2 - Build diversity
Does anyone still have the cleric skill/training point costs from GS3? I recall clerics had more training options open to them (mutant or otherwise). I can't remember if it was because the TP costs were lower or some skills could be double-train that can't now.. or both. Anyway, adding a decent offensive warding spell or two in MjS might also create more options for both clerics and empaths. I suppose it'd be bad for maxers who'd have to make a choice (thinking recent Wiz/MjE changes), but it'd be something different.
>I think I remember talking about "SpellMans" as a possible extension of capabilities back when the Wizards folder was long on whining but less so on ideas scattered on the ground.
I think this would be better than the way lores are implemented now. Instead of adding passive effects as you train, either for spell research or lores, you just earn points that you can unlock things with, or improve specific spells. Anything that is currently improved by lores or spell research or level could be done via a point buy system. This sort of stuff:
- Increase DF
- More or better crits
- More targets
- Better stun
- Longer offensive duration
- Better defensive effect
- Ability to "charge up" a spell
- Reduce chance of failure
- Reduce cooldown or hard RT
- Reduce other penalties associated with the spell
- Bonus to CS/AS with a specific spell
- Unlock a bolt (or warding) version
- Unlock synergies with other spells (same list, same realm, or different realm)
- Unlock special effects: knockdown, ignition, splash, etc.
- Unlock/improve chance for instant kill
- etc.
That way if you don't care about something in the list, you just ignore it. Or you can focus on something early, as people do with combat maneuvers and shield specialization.
>2 - Build diversity
Does anyone still have the cleric skill/training point costs from GS3? I recall clerics had more training options open to them (mutant or otherwise). I can't remember if it was because the TP costs were lower or some skills could be double-train that can't now.. or both. Anyway, adding a decent offensive warding spell or two in MjS might also create more options for both clerics and empaths. I suppose it'd be bad for maxers who'd have to make a choice (thinking recent Wiz/MjE changes), but it'd be something different.
>I think I remember talking about "SpellMans" as a possible extension of capabilities back when the Wizards folder was long on whining but less so on ideas scattered on the ground.
I think this would be better than the way lores are implemented now. Instead of adding passive effects as you train, either for spell research or lores, you just earn points that you can unlock things with, or improve specific spells. Anything that is currently improved by lores or spell research or level could be done via a point buy system. This sort of stuff:
- Increase DF
- More or better crits
- More targets
- Better stun
- Longer offensive duration
- Better defensive effect
- Ability to "charge up" a spell
- Reduce chance of failure
- Reduce cooldown or hard RT
- Reduce other penalties associated with the spell
- Bonus to CS/AS with a specific spell
- Unlock a bolt (or warding) version
- Unlock synergies with other spells (same list, same realm, or different realm)
- Unlock special effects: knockdown, ignition, splash, etc.
- Unlock/improve chance for instant kill
- etc.
That way if you don't care about something in the list, you just ignore it. Or you can focus on something early, as people do with combat maneuvers and shield specialization.
>One thing that GMs seem not to have internalized is that Damage Over Time effects are losers. Poison flares are no good (certainly the cloud, that works like an elemental flare... ambushing daggers are on another scale entirely), Sandstorm & Maelstrom only get good when you have accelerators on them, et cetera.
-Krakii
In general you're right, but I think it depends on the implementation. Rotflares are several times faster than disease and some people pay bloodscrip in the hundreds of thousands for those. Earthen Fury is a hit spell too. (...when not being cast on players, of course. :D)
>Does anyone still have the cleric skill/training point costs from GS3? I recall clerics had more training options open to them (mutant or otherwise). I can't remember if it was because the TP costs were lower or some skills could be double-train that can't now.. or both.
-Kandor
Assuming this is accurate: https://web.archive.org/web/19980212164142/http://www.zone9.com/coven/library/guides/cleric.html
Costs seem fairly similar overall, though shields were noticeably much cheaper and spell research more expensive. Physical Fitness had a 2x cap instead of 1x, First Aid 3x instead of 2x, and Spell Aiming 1x instead of 2x. I don't remember the GSIII experience well enough to comment in detail on the bigger picture of it, though.
>Kandor's list of spellman stuff
Thumbs up, would love this kind of system.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
-Krakii
In general you're right, but I think it depends on the implementation. Rotflares are several times faster than disease and some people pay bloodscrip in the hundreds of thousands for those. Earthen Fury is a hit spell too. (...when not being cast on players, of course. :D)
>Does anyone still have the cleric skill/training point costs from GS3? I recall clerics had more training options open to them (mutant or otherwise). I can't remember if it was because the TP costs were lower or some skills could be double-train that can't now.. or both.
-Kandor
Assuming this is accurate: https://web.archive.org/web/19980212164142/http://www.zone9.com/coven/library/guides/cleric.html
Costs seem fairly similar overall, though shields were noticeably much cheaper and spell research more expensive. Physical Fitness had a 2x cap instead of 1x, First Aid 3x instead of 2x, and Spell Aiming 1x instead of 2x. I don't remember the GSIII experience well enough to comment in detail on the bigger picture of it, though.
>Kandor's list of spellman stuff
Thumbs up, would love this kind of system.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
>Assuming this is accurate: https://web.archive.org/web/19980212164142/http://www.zone9.com/coven/library/guides/cleric.html
>
>Costs seem fairly similar overall, though shields were noticeably much cheaper and spell research more expensive. Physical Fitness had a 2x cap instead of 1x, First Aid 3x instead of 2x, and Spell Aiming 1x instead of 2x. I don't remember the GSIII experience well enough to comment in detail on the bigger picture of it, though.
Ok, strange.. I remembered war clerics being decent fighters in GS3, but if they were always limited to 1x weapon and 1x cman, then it's possible I'm just thinking of bigger-race clerics at lower levels (where strength bonus + 211 + 215 would nearly balance out with a warrior's training), or I'm getting it mixed up with something else. Voln Fu used to be a build option, but overpowered. Kai's Strike makes brawling undead feasible now, but UAC really isn't so great for pures. The physical fitness/first aid training cap wouldn't be a big deal for most clerics. Being able to 2x fitness would be more of an enabler for GoS clerics. The spell research costs were lowered across the board when lores were added.
The only other thing I can think of that I didn't see on your list is something fun to do with sanctified gear. That may or may not be something specific to clerics.
>
>Costs seem fairly similar overall, though shields were noticeably much cheaper and spell research more expensive. Physical Fitness had a 2x cap instead of 1x, First Aid 3x instead of 2x, and Spell Aiming 1x instead of 2x. I don't remember the GSIII experience well enough to comment in detail on the bigger picture of it, though.
Ok, strange.. I remembered war clerics being decent fighters in GS3, but if they were always limited to 1x weapon and 1x cman, then it's possible I'm just thinking of bigger-race clerics at lower levels (where strength bonus + 211 + 215 would nearly balance out with a warrior's training), or I'm getting it mixed up with something else. Voln Fu used to be a build option, but overpowered. Kai's Strike makes brawling undead feasible now, but UAC really isn't so great for pures. The physical fitness/first aid training cap wouldn't be a big deal for most clerics. Being able to 2x fitness would be more of an enabler for GoS clerics. The spell research costs were lowered across the board when lores were added.
The only other thing I can think of that I didn't see on your list is something fun to do with sanctified gear. That may or may not be something specific to clerics.
Sanctified gear is on my list, it's #6. :D
None of my suggestions really touch on it, though. It might just be a creative block, but every time I tried to come up with something it ended up too similar to either 735 or 1604.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
None of my suggestions really touch on it, though. It might just be a creative block, but every time I tried to come up with something it ended up too similar to either 735 or 1604.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
After the recent 1625 changes, I was amused thinking how my paladin's going to end up with 1x Arcane Symbols before my cleric. But then I thought about it: why don't I care about training AS past 40 ranks with Leafi?
That sent me down a rabbit hole of thinking about the skills for pures in general. I won't make this Problem #8 on my list because it's too minor for that, but:
I'd like to see big profession-specific payoffs for clerics to training at least a couple skills out of Arcane Symbols, Magic Item Use, Spell Aiming, and Spiritual Mana Control.
Some examples of how this works for wizards and sorcerers include that enchanting has a higher ceiling with AS/MIU/EMC, ensorcelling has a higher ceiling with AS/MIU/SMC/EMC, 708 and 720 are improved with Spell Aiming, 702 is improved with SMC/EMC, and 515 is improved with EMC. (Granted that was after a nerf, but the spell in its current form is still great.)
The key with my examples is that they're strong payoffs to core pure skills in addition to the universal benefits.
A wizard isn't only training Arcane Symbols and Magic Item Use for the same generic reasons that a warrior would (spell duration, spellburst protection), nor the same reasons that an empath would (add runestaff DS to the other two), but also has her own wizard-specific reasons.
A sorcerer isn't only training Elemental Mana Control for the same reason as a bard (mana per pulse, mana spellups) and isn't training Spell Aiming for the same reason as a bolting wizard (AS, runestaff DS, spellburst protection), but has his own sorcerer-specific reasons.
So I'd like to be able to say that for clerics with AS/MIU/SA--and even more than that I'd like to be able to say it with SMC. We're the only profession that can 3x any mana control, which is usually a signal of a profession-defining ability, but the payoffs past 2x are very minor.
All that said, I don't have any suggestions about this for now, but it was on my mind. Thankfully our GMs are far more creative than me--I'd probably never have come up with recent spells like 950, 1650, and 520 that are fantastic designs and make use of four or five skills each.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
That sent me down a rabbit hole of thinking about the skills for pures in general. I won't make this Problem #8 on my list because it's too minor for that, but:
I'd like to see big profession-specific payoffs for clerics to training at least a couple skills out of Arcane Symbols, Magic Item Use, Spell Aiming, and Spiritual Mana Control.
Some examples of how this works for wizards and sorcerers include that enchanting has a higher ceiling with AS/MIU/EMC, ensorcelling has a higher ceiling with AS/MIU/SMC/EMC, 708 and 720 are improved with Spell Aiming, 702 is improved with SMC/EMC, and 515 is improved with EMC. (Granted that was after a nerf, but the spell in its current form is still great.)
The key with my examples is that they're strong payoffs to core pure skills in addition to the universal benefits.
A wizard isn't only training Arcane Symbols and Magic Item Use for the same generic reasons that a warrior would (spell duration, spellburst protection), nor the same reasons that an empath would (add runestaff DS to the other two), but also has her own wizard-specific reasons.
A sorcerer isn't only training Elemental Mana Control for the same reason as a bard (mana per pulse, mana spellups) and isn't training Spell Aiming for the same reason as a bolting wizard (AS, runestaff DS, spellburst protection), but has his own sorcerer-specific reasons.
So I'd like to be able to say that for clerics with AS/MIU/SA--and even more than that I'd like to be able to say it with SMC. We're the only profession that can 3x any mana control, which is usually a signal of a profession-defining ability, but the payoffs past 2x are very minor.
All that said, I don't have any suggestions about this for now, but it was on my mind. Thankfully our GMs are far more creative than me--I'd probably never have come up with recent spells like 950, 1650, and 520 that are fantastic designs and make use of four or five skills each.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
Maybe the SMC could be linked to the EXP rewarded for raising the dead.
1x SMC will reward 500 exp (Must be level 18 and have 18 cleric spell ranks).
2x SMC will reward 1000 exp (Must be level 25 and have 25 cleric spell ranks).
3x SMC will reward 1500 exp (Must be level 40 and have 40 cleric spell ranks).
1x SMC will reward 500 exp (Must be level 18 and have 18 cleric spell ranks).
2x SMC will reward 1000 exp (Must be level 25 and have 25 cleric spell ranks).
3x SMC will reward 1500 exp (Must be level 40 and have 40 cleric spell ranks).
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| Whick's body sways back and forth for a bit. |
| * Whick drops dead at your feet! |
