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So I just spent the last bit reading up on all this cleric talk and ruminating on the experiences Ive had playing my cleric up till the late 30's. Not that much experience at all, but already Im feeling the pain of the 302 forever...and it seems I got a long way to go. Also, I regularly converse with players of clerics and so they tell me their woes...as well as reading from here and some of the excellent rundowns of whats lacking whats needed.
I think that clerics don't need a total rework to be made to be fun and interesting and to fill in some of the gaps. Theres a lot of things that can be done, but I'd like to focus on 3 changes that I think would be pretty awesome for Clerics.
First change: Remove 330 Prayer of Communion as a spell. Make it an innate Cleric ability gained at a certain level or after a certain lore threshhold. REPLACE it with the following spell:
*Hand of the Arkati*
Flavor: Hearing your call, your god lends you a portion of his spirit with which to smite your foes. It manifests and strikes down all who would oppose their will, and by extension, you!
Mechanics:
Lasts 1 minute per cast extendable with Summoning Lore to 2 minutes max. While active, this spirit will randomly inflict status effects on X numbers of opponents in the same area as you. The X starts at 1, but is increased up to 5 as you gain more ranks. This effect occurs every 16 seconds, reducable to every 8 seconds with Blessing lore.
The status effects will include stunning, webbing, prone, random small damage flares, forcing stance increases, silencing, etc.
IN ADDITION, it will ATTACK any enemy who hits you, doing damage based on your religion lore. This attack is extremely hard to avoid.
Note: There is a chance, if two clerics of differing gods are in the same room, that their Hands will destroy each other in a catastrophic clash of divine energy, damaging everyone in the room...friend and foe. This chance is increased the more clerics that have this spell up, and if the gods are of differing alignments (liabo vs lornon for example). So if you are grouping with other clerics? Pick one of you to cast this for maximum safety :D
Role this spell fills: It allows Clerics to deal with swarms in an interesting, different way. The hands off nature of this 'buff' means the cleric can cast whatever spells he likes. Melee and bolting clerics can benefit due to the stancing/stunning/webbing...and even pure warding clerics may appreciate the extra defense this spell provides.
Next thing I would suggest is adding this for the 320 spell slot:
*Divine Word*
Flavor: You have learned the secret name of your Divinity, and those who oppose your god are unable to stand before it. You speak it, and reality itself trembles as the sound echoes through the air...those who fight against you are torn asunder or may be overcome with madness and terror, turning on any around them...friend or foe.
Mechanics: This is a single target SMRv2 attack, which will do most of its damage on the initial hit. IF the enemy is hit, it will take small amounts of follow up damage and has a chance based on lores to 'go crazy', attacking any enemy in the room with its normal attacks. This chance will never go above, say, 30%...making this mostly useful for single targets but with some fun and interesting shenanigans if you manage to 'convert' your target :D
Role this fills: A different sort of attack, a manuever attack that will deal well with creatures weak to such things. It will only minorly assist with swarms, but still its an interesting choice. With the 'conversion' effect, it really gives some flavor to the Cleric who by power of faith alone can turn his enemies to his God...for whatever brief time they have left in the world!
The next change is maybe a bit...harder.
Spell 304...add an Evoke to it.
Flavor: Whilst bless has always been able to infuse the divine into a weapon, recently clerics have learned how to Infuse the divine into the very being of others. This has managed to have a very interesting effect on those who submit to the will of the gods...offering up their very being in order to be a vessel...however temporarily. This takes a lot of energy from the cleric...and can only be done every so often lest the Cleric drain too much of his own essence and lose the connection to their god.
Mechanics: OK! So, this is my idea for this. If the cleric has gained the attention of his or her god, they can imbue Divine Essence directly into a character for a time (increases based on level, spell ranks and lore). THis would last way over the normal 4 hour limit for spells...IM thinking maybe a month if cast at MAX. Such a blessing will do several things, based on the cleric's deity.
It allows for a % chance to Miraculously avoid a manuever attack. (increased for Liabo deities, and with blessing lore)
It allows for a % chance to gain EXTRA 10 EXP from a kill, which goes directly into the Long Term pool. (increased for neutral deities and deities like Fash'lo'nae)
It allows for a % chance to flare extra damage if you hit but do not kill an enemy. (increased for Lornon deities and maybe Charl too)
It allows for a % chance to get a tier up in treasure drop...like a minor or major loot boost for a single kill. (increased for forsaken/no deity clerics, and greedy arkati like...I dunno. Im sure theres a couple lol)
Note: These percent chances are SMALL. Like...5% MAX.
Role this fills: This gives something clerics can do every so often to boost themselves and/or other players. You will gain 'attention' (I didnt wanna call it favor lol) in several ways...killing undead (if you are SMITE) or killing living (if you are BANE), and a nice chunk for raising people. The more Attention you have, the longer this 'evoked bless' lasts. Those who wanna 'make dat silver' can sell your attention, making Clerics something to be desired outside of a raise.
In conclusion, with these three changes Clerics wont suddenly become OMG OP, but I feel it will make the class more fun and interesting to play, it will help provide different ways to hunt, and help clerics deal a bit better with swarms. It also definitely FEELS clericy, to me anyway.
Thoughts? Am I crazy? The numbers can be adjusted for balance, as Im just using those as examples.
Berbels shrilly exclaims, "Ise takings hims tos secretses lairses!"
Berbels grabs you and drags you east.
As I've commented on before, Clerics are pretty much the One Trick Pony: if you can't hit it with warding, you may as well pack up your marbles and head home.
Yes, I understand that there are successful weapon-swinging Clerical builds; I was one. But even they have a tendency to use--to a greater or lesser extent--their spells. This can be very easy or very difficult, depending on the weapons chosen and the creatures hunted and so on.
Yes, I understand that there is Holy Bolt and Fire Spirit and (now) Web. But again, not really bolting specialists.
(And if you want to listen to the tale of woe from the bolting specialists, go read three-to-five years of cumulative "bolts suck" griping over in the Wizards' category.)
On the bright side, once there's mana in the budget to support it, spellcasting apparently gets to be really, really deadly once you're using Spirit Slayer/240 all the time.
.
Rangers have SpikeThorn. Elemental has a couple of waves (one with damage). Sorcerers have Maelstrom & Implode. Mages (now) have Earthen Fury.
I think Bards & Paladins & Monks all have their TDs set low enough that their Warding spells are so effective, they don't actually NEED a maneuver.
The biggest thing that I could want to see added for Clerics is a maneuver of some kind. Either low-level (but can increase in power with training choices) or starting at a sufficient mid-to-powerful level to be useful through the endgame.
Yes, I understand that there are successful weapon-swinging Clerical builds; I was one. But even they have a tendency to use--to a greater or lesser extent--their spells. This can be very easy or very difficult, depending on the weapons chosen and the creatures hunted and so on.
Yes, I understand that there is Holy Bolt and Fire Spirit and (now) Web. But again, not really bolting specialists.
(And if you want to listen to the tale of woe from the bolting specialists, go read three-to-five years of cumulative "bolts suck" griping over in the Wizards' category.)
On the bright side, once there's mana in the budget to support it, spellcasting apparently gets to be really, really deadly once you're using Spirit Slayer/240 all the time.
.
Rangers have SpikeThorn. Elemental has a couple of waves (one with damage). Sorcerers have Maelstrom & Implode. Mages (now) have Earthen Fury.
I think Bards & Paladins & Monks all have their TDs set low enough that their Warding spells are so effective, they don't actually NEED a maneuver.
The biggest thing that I could want to see added for Clerics is a maneuver of some kind. Either low-level (but can increase in power with training choices) or starting at a sufficient mid-to-powerful level to be useful through the endgame.
Paladins do have access to a maneuver spell in the form of 1650 Smite. Its handy against turtling critters or grizzled junk.
I've made my own suggestions, but I think Fudge's have merit as well. There have been quite a few good suggestions made in regards to tweaking or replacing cleric spells.
I've made my own suggestions, but I think Fudge's have merit as well. There have been quite a few good suggestions made in regards to tweaking or replacing cleric spells.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| Whick's body sways back and forth for a bit. |
| * Whick drops dead at your feet! |
Your 304 idea reminds me of this blurb from the 325 wiki page:
https://gswiki.play.net/Holy_Receptacle_(325)#Deity-Specific_Blessings
I've always thought that would be a neat thing to see finalized some day and the potential could be amazing.
Like the page says, though, it would also take tons of work--so maybe keeping an effect like this divided up only by Liabo/Lornon/Neutrality/outliers like you said, or even Blessings/Religion/Summoning, is a more attainable goal.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
https://gswiki.play.net/Holy_Receptacle_(325)#Deity-Specific_Blessings
| While not currently a "live" feature of the spell, provisions exist for blessings specific to individual deities. This is a work in progress on the part of the development team, and not anticipated in the near future due to the rather daunting number of deities that would need unique blessings. |
I've always thought that would be a neat thing to see finalized some day and the potential could be amazing.
Like the page says, though, it would also take tons of work--so maybe keeping an effect like this divided up only by Liabo/Lornon/Neutrality/outliers like you said, or even Blessings/Religion/Summoning, is a more attainable goal.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
I've said in the past that I like/would like to see more of combos, or ritual magic, or... stuff like that.
Things like "web, NOW on fire" are along that line.
(When we then douse them with holy bolt, shouldn't there be a free Steam crit? Hey, Estild, make with some extra crit action!)
Or we cast Spirit Dispel, then wave a wand for Elemental.
.
Maybe take advantage of "extra components" in the religious aspect? Someone mentioned the matter/anti-matter explosion for the Holy Spark a few posts ago, how about making that under our control? Chuck out a Nexus gem <of WhateverTier> to be a bomb that you picked up from <your Opposing Pantheon>, then hit it with Your Pantheon's AoE spell. Pffooomph! Baddies blow up.
Holy symbols. Adding flares to existing spells (if I use a Proselyte's item from a same-Pantheon/different-deity, I get my crit NOW also with a lesser degree of their crit).
Collect the whole set? (Everyone in that pantheon.) Get <something big>.
More powerful/more capable/different facet (more crits/easier to hit with/additional attack of <one of the other two [AS melee, AS bolt, CS]>) if you <do something>.
We have cast & incant & evoke & channel & round-time charging & extra mana infusing & deity holy symbols & ... There's got to be ways to spice this up.
I wouldn't mind casting one middling-to-expensive spell here, and another middling-to-expensive spell here, and affecting "this room plus all adjoining" with <something appropriate to my deity or pantheon>.
Someone already mentioned the "notice" (or notoriety, in the sense that you have come to the attention of your deity) system. Voln already hates undead, GoS already hates 'earthy' stuff. Fight your deity's and/or pantheon's enemies, get rewards for it.
Things like "web, NOW on fire" are along that line.
(When we then douse them with holy bolt, shouldn't there be a free Steam crit? Hey, Estild, make with some extra crit action!)
Or we cast Spirit Dispel, then wave a wand for Elemental.
.
Maybe take advantage of "extra components" in the religious aspect? Someone mentioned the matter/anti-matter explosion for the Holy Spark a few posts ago, how about making that under our control? Chuck out a Nexus gem <of WhateverTier> to be a bomb that you picked up from <your Opposing Pantheon>, then hit it with Your Pantheon's AoE spell. Pffooomph! Baddies blow up.
Holy symbols. Adding flares to existing spells (if I use a Proselyte's item from a same-Pantheon/different-deity, I get my crit NOW also with a lesser degree of their crit).
Collect the whole set? (Everyone in that pantheon.) Get <something big>.
More powerful/more capable/different facet (more crits/easier to hit with/additional attack of <one of the other two [AS melee, AS bolt, CS]>) if you <do something>.
We have cast & incant & evoke & channel & round-time charging & extra mana infusing & deity holy symbols & ... There's got to be ways to spice this up.
I wouldn't mind casting one middling-to-expensive spell here, and another middling-to-expensive spell here, and affecting "this room plus all adjoining" with <something appropriate to my deity or pantheon>.
Someone already mentioned the "notice" (or notoriety, in the sense that you have come to the attention of your deity) system. Voln already hates undead, GoS already hates 'earthy' stuff. Fight your deity's and/or pantheon's enemies, get rewards for it.
> I think Bards & Paladins & Monks all have their TDs set low enough that their Warding spells are so effective, they don't actually NEED a maneuver.
Monks don't. They have the CS of a square while MnM TD is set for semis. Not very noticeable at level 20, but paladins get a CS 100 over monks eventually while facing the same TD. Thats a huge difference in warding power.
<"extra components">
As someone that plays a sorcerer, trust me when I say that you don't want them implementing components in any way to any spell, let alone an attack spell.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
As someone that plays a sorcerer, trust me when I say that you don't want them implementing components in any way to any spell, let alone an attack spell.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
It does feel like 309, 312, and to some extent 316 could use some tweaks.
I could see 309 actually being used as a warding attack on undead which also inflicts RT - kind of like 705 + RT for undead. I'd rename it to Word of Rebuke or something. 309 seems redundant and unnecessary unless I'm missing some value to the spell that 315 doesn't already offer.
I could see 312 having some kind of unbalance component built in to have a high % chance of knocking the target over.
I could also see 316 causing targets to kneel due to the overwhelming admonishing power of the spell (if they are standing) provided the target is not immune to knock-down abilities.
I could see 309 actually being used as a warding attack on undead which also inflicts RT - kind of like 705 + RT for undead. I'd rename it to Word of Rebuke or something. 309 seems redundant and unnecessary unless I'm missing some value to the spell that 315 doesn't already offer.
I could see 312 having some kind of unbalance component built in to have a high % chance of knocking the target over.
I could also see 316 causing targets to kneel due to the overwhelming admonishing power of the spell (if they are standing) provided the target is not immune to knock-down abilities.
>I could see 309 actually being used as a warding attack on undead which also inflicts RT - kind of like 705 + RT for undead. I'd rename it to Word of Rebuke or something. 309 seems redundant and unnecessary unless I'm missing some value to the spell that 315 doesn't already offer.
It gets you into the GY earlier and cheaper than 315 would. Waiting till level 9 is bad enough for the undead specialist class. Perhaps this could be dealt with by allowing Smite (but not Bane) to blast the gate open.
It allows you to handle things you want to remain cursed. (which could be bundled into 315, but its a separate function to permanently removing curses)
...
I'm not seeing how clerics are actually all that powerful even on single targets. The research on the wiki shows that 317 is a relatively weak spell against capped targets due to the trivial powerup available to it from lore training.
It gets you into the GY earlier and cheaper than 315 would. Waiting till level 9 is bad enough for the undead specialist class. Perhaps this could be dealt with by allowing Smite (but not Bane) to blast the gate open.
It allows you to handle things you want to remain cursed. (which could be bundled into 315, but its a separate function to permanently removing curses)
...
I'm not seeing how clerics are actually all that powerful even on single targets. The research on the wiki shows that 317 is a relatively weak spell against capped targets due to the trivial powerup available to it from lore training.
>I'm not seeing how clerics are actually all that powerful even on single targets. The research on the wiki shows that 317 is a relatively weak spell against capped targets due to the trivial powerup available to it from lore training.
-Rathboner
Maybe on its own, but with 240 it's incredible. My assessment of single target hunting would be:
1. Empaths
2. Bards against targets that can be crit killed
3. Wizards against targets with poor maneuver defense
4. Clerics
5. Bards against targets that can't be crit killed
6. Wizards against targets without poor maneuver defense
I think there's probably a case to swap 1 and 2, but my bard is only at 11.7m exp, so I haven't yet experienced the full power of a pure bard. I won't comment on capped sorcerers; mine is level 65.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
-Rathboner
Maybe on its own, but with 240 it's incredible. My assessment of single target hunting would be:
1. Empaths
2. Bards against targets that can be crit killed
3. Wizards against targets with poor maneuver defense
4. Clerics
5. Bards against targets that can't be crit killed
6. Wizards against targets without poor maneuver defense
I think there's probably a case to swap 1 and 2, but my bard is only at 11.7m exp, so I haven't yet experienced the full power of a pure bard. I won't comment on capped sorcerers; mine is level 65.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
| My assessment of single target hunting would be: |
I would probably agree with Empaths being in the top spot. 240 + 1115 or 1106 is quite deadly.
I would actually place Clerics at #2, again, because of 240 + 312. It's going to take out everything.
I would place Wizards at #3 because 917 only works on squishy targets, where #1/#2 can take out anything.
I don't include Bards because they're semis. They should be compared to other semis, not pures.
What I'd like to understand better is, what makes clerics boring? Is it because they're basically 240 + CS spell? What if any new additions didn't work with 240? So you're cutting out the OP to gain alternative methods of attacking?
>What I'd like to understand better is, what makes clerics boring? Is it because they're basically 240 + CS spell? What if any new additions didn't work with 240?
Yes and that would work for me. One of my proposals from last year even specifically said not to allow it with 240. Any AoE spells that anyone proposes also can't take advantage since 240 is single-target only.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
Yes and that would work for me. One of my proposals from last year even specifically said not to allow it with 240. Any AoE spells that anyone proposes also can't take advantage since 240 is single-target only.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
>>My assessment of single target hunting would be:
You completely ignored Sorcerers who can, quite frequently, kill anything with a single cast of 717, 719 or 720 (depending on target). Without any special modifier, a lot of targets can be killed with just two casts of channeled 705.
For single-target killing - Sorcerers are actually supposed (and probably are) to be the top of the pure list.
For multi-target killing - Wizards reign supreme.
Empaths and Clerics are more than capable of single-target killing (and often better than sorcerers at multi-target killing), but their roles extend beyond simply combat into other crucial aspects of the game.
You completely ignored Sorcerers who can, quite frequently, kill anything with a single cast of 717, 719 or 720 (depending on target). Without any special modifier, a lot of targets can be killed with just two casts of channeled 705.
For single-target killing - Sorcerers are actually supposed (and probably are) to be the top of the pure list.
For multi-target killing - Wizards reign supreme.
Empaths and Clerics are more than capable of single-target killing (and often better than sorcerers at multi-target killing), but their roles extend beyond simply combat into other crucial aspects of the game.
<You completely ignored Sorcerers who can, quite frequently, kill anything with a single cast of 717, 719 or 720 (depending on target).>
717 is good for DR or stunning critters that can't otherwise be stunned for SACRIFICE and 720 is an excellent "oh fudge" spell, but neither are great for regular hunting since they don't leave a body to loot often as not. 719 can reliably kill magical critters in one cast, but squares are just going to laugh at you for casting it at them.
What makes sorcerers (and to a slightly lesser extent, empaths) so lethal in so many areas is they don't just have one or two spells that are good across the board. Different spells available to them are better in different situations, allowing them to be effective against a greater variety of critters. It also makes them more fun to play since you usually can't just walk through most hunting areas INCANTing the same spell over and over again (well, you can, but you're going to be poor if you do).
Rather the focusing on clerics being good at CS, bolts, or maneuvers, they should focus on whether or not they have a response to everything that might be thrown at them that also fits the profession. From what I've seen, they really only have a response to undead critters and trolls... and not much else.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
717 is good for DR or stunning critters that can't otherwise be stunned for SACRIFICE and 720 is an excellent "oh fudge" spell, but neither are great for regular hunting since they don't leave a body to loot often as not. 719 can reliably kill magical critters in one cast, but squares are just going to laugh at you for casting it at them.
What makes sorcerers (and to a slightly lesser extent, empaths) so lethal in so many areas is they don't just have one or two spells that are good across the board. Different spells available to them are better in different situations, allowing them to be effective against a greater variety of critters. It also makes them more fun to play since you usually can't just walk through most hunting areas INCANTing the same spell over and over again (well, you can, but you're going to be poor if you do).
Rather the focusing on clerics being good at CS, bolts, or maneuvers, they should focus on whether or not they have a response to everything that might be thrown at them that also fits the profession. From what I've seen, they really only have a response to undead critters and trolls... and not much else.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>> 717 is good for DR or stunning critters that can't otherwise be stunned for SACRIFICE
717 is good for much more than DR. With sufficient CS, it is basically the perfect spell for killing anything that isn't undead, or which wouldn't die in a single cast of 719. I use it more than most other spells in Nelemar, and due to the high CS of a capped sorcerer, the end rolls are generally greater than 199 for an instant kill.
717 is good for much more than DR. With sufficient CS, it is basically the perfect spell for killing anything that isn't undead, or which wouldn't die in a single cast of 719. I use it more than most other spells in Nelemar, and due to the high CS of a capped sorcerer, the end rolls are generally greater than 199 for an instant kill.
Note for the record that Evil Eye is fundamentally exactly the mechanics of "Repel Undead"...
...which got removed from the Clerics' arsenal when four spells [Repel 1, 2, 3, True] got changed to be Smite plus a bunch of other stuff.
.
Yes, I was curious when Evil Eye got implemented, why they just flip-flopped the spell. (Only-undead versus Only-Non-Undead.)
Yes, I was curious why it got left implemented, when the Clerics were stripped of their InstaKill.
...which got removed from the Clerics' arsenal when four spells [Repel 1, 2, 3, True] got changed to be Smite plus a bunch of other stuff.
.
Yes, I was curious when Evil Eye got implemented, why they just flip-flopped the spell. (Only-undead versus Only-Non-Undead.)
Yes, I was curious why it got left implemented, when the Clerics were stripped of their InstaKill.
My sorcerer isn't high level enough for me to feel confident about ranking her against other professions, like I said. I'm just trying to be transparent and not speak to things that I have no experience with. :D
If they're as strong as you say at the high end, that's great to know and I look forward to getting there one day.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
If they're as strong as you say at the high end, that's great to know and I look forward to getting there one day.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
So on my way home tonight I thought of something that might be fun for clerics. May not solve some problems but would be an interesting use of abilities that we already have.
I thought what if we cast spirit fog in the room, and then bless it. It would create a zone of holy water vapor that could in theory cause holy water steam flares to undead. Not sure exactly how much it would help, but it would be a use for a spell I personally don't use that much, but if you could combine it with another spell, it then becomes extremely desirable and could help to a degree.
I thought what if we cast spirit fog in the room, and then bless it. It would create a zone of holy water vapor that could in theory cause holy water steam flares to undead. Not sure exactly how much it would help, but it would be a use for a spell I personally don't use that much, but if you could combine it with another spell, it then becomes extremely desirable and could help to a degree.
