Honestly, I'm guessing that a lot of the problem is centered on a few key creatures at cap. This may be an issue where we just need to adjust the Paladin TD of a hand full of creatures.

But someone who's not capped will have to tell us if my assumption is correct

A few questions:

-Did we lose the +CS boost from religion lore with infused spells via 1625 when we gained the TD reduction from summoning lore?
from the wiki: Each rank of Religion lore, up to 50 ranks, will add 1 additional point of generic CS for spells infused into a weapon. This bonus is limited to half of the paladin’s arcane symbols ranks.

I am not seeing the +CS benefit, but the loss wasn't documented so I simply wanted to confirm.


-Is a primarily casting paladin one of the intended/supported paths? If yes, is it too soon to really test with 1603 still down tuned and smite not being released? Is 1615 damage still being reviewed?

-Will an evoke version of 1630 for damage over rt/kneeling be a possibility? I thought early on in the doc it was listed, but my memory is far from perfect and I don't see it there anymore.

I posted this under the OSA folder but thought I would post it here as well.

As a result of the Paladin spell review, Paladin CS has been somewhat reduced.

I noted this weekend that I had some challenges in warding Krolvin pirates and was wondering if the OSA creature paladin warding defense had been setup based on the old paladin CS expectations or if the current warding challenge is intentional.

For reference, my paladin has 50 Ranks in Paladin spells and 40 Ranks in Minor Spirit resulting in a Paladin CS of 394.

Some combat clip examples below:

---

>prep pioustrialcast A dark crimson radiance coalesces around your raised fists as you chant the invocation for Pious Trial spell...
Your spell is ready.
>You gesture.
CS: +394 - TD: +375 + CvA: +25 + d100: +86 == +130
Warding failed!
A seasoned krolvin warden appears to be overwhelmed by some burdening force.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a hulking krolvin templar suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +394 - TD: +340 + CvA: +25 + d100: +45 == +124
Warding failed!
A hulking krolvin templar appears to be overwhelmed by some burdening force.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


>A dark crimson radiance coalesces around your raised fists as you chant the invocation for Judgment spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a seasoned krolvin warden.
You briefly close your eyes, and a pair of luminous yellow eyes flash briefly behind you. A faint black light builds up and emanates from you before shadows coalesce and engulf your entire arm!
A black jackal-shaped visage leaps from the shadows, striking a seasoned krolvin warden!
CS: +394 - TD: +375 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +98
Warded off!
A black jackal-shaped visage leaps from the shadows, striking a hulking krolvin templar!
CS: +394 - TD: +340 + CvA: +25 + d100: +10 == +89
Warded off!
The shadows engulfing your arm fade away into thin tendrils of darkness.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


>A dark crimson radiance coalesces around your raised fists as you chant the invocation for Pious Trial spell...
Your spell is ready.
>You gesture.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a hulking krolvin obliterator suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +394 - TD: +338 + CvA: +25 + d100: +78 == +159
Warding failed!
A hulking krolvin obliterator appears to be overwhelmed by some burdening force.
CS: +394 - TD: +309 + CvA: -18 + d100: +89 == +156
Warding failed!
A towering krolvin warlord appears to be overwhelmed by some burdening force.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)


>incant 1630
>A dark crimson radiance coalesces around your raised fists as you chant the invocation for Judgment spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a hulking krolvin obliterator.
You briefly close your eyes, and a pair of luminous yellow eyes flash briefly behind you. A faint black light builds up and emanates from you before shadows coalesce and engulf your entire arm!
A black jackal-shaped visage leaps from the shadows, striking a hulking krolvin obliterator!
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a hulking krolvin obliterator suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +394 - TD: +338 + CvA: +25 + d100: +60 == +141
Warding failed!
The hulking krolvin obliterator is stricken for 50 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Neck vertebrae snap.
The hulking krolvin obliterator strains as if burdened by some invisible force.
A black jackal-shaped visage leaps from the shadows, striking a towering krolvin warlord!
CS: +394 - TD: +309 + CvA: -18 + d100: +37 == +104
Warding failed!
The krolvin warlord is stricken for 20 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Smash to the kneecap.
The krolvin warlord is driven to his knees!
The shadows engulfing your arm fade away into thin tendrils of darkness.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


incant 1630
A dark crimson radiance coalesces around your raised fists as you chant the invocation for Judgment spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a hulking krolvin destroyer.
You briefly close your eyes, and a pair of luminous yellow eyes flash briefly behind you. A faint black light builds up and emanates from you before shadows coalesce and engulf your entire arm!
A black jackal-shaped visage leaps from the shadows, striking a hulking krolvin destroyer!
CS: +394 - TD: +300 + CvA: +15 + d100: +29 == +138
Warding failed!
The hulking krolvin destroyer is stricken for 55 points of damage!
... 3 points of damage!
Blow raises a welt on the hulking krolvin destroyer's left arm.
The hulking krolvin destroyer is driven to her knees!
A black jackal-shaped visage leaps from the shadows, striking a hulking krolvin warlord!
CS: +394 - TD: +306 + CvA: -13 + d100: +80 == +155
Warding failed!
The hulking krolvin warlord is stricken for 37 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Large gash to the right arm, several muscles torn.
The hulking krolvin warlord is driven to her knees!
The shadows engulfing your arm fade away into thin tendrils of darkness.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


>incant 1630
A dark crimson radiance coalesces around your raised fists as you chant the invocation for Judgment spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a hulking krolvin warlord.
You briefly close your eyes, and a pair of luminous yellow eyes flash briefly behind you. A faint black light builds up and emanates from you before shadows coalesce and engulf your entire arm!
A black jackal-shaped visage leaps from the shadows, striking a hulking krolvin warlord!
CS: +394 - TD: +306 + CvA: -13 + d100: +66 == +141
Warding failed!
The hulking krolvin warlord is stricken for 37 points of damage!
... 3 points of damage!
Blow raises a welt on the hulking krolvin warlord's left arm.
The hulking krolvin warlord is driven to her knees!
A black jackal-shaped visage leaps from the shadows, striking a towering krolvin destroyer!
CS: +394 - TD: +297 + CvA: +16 + d100: +27 == +140
Warding failed!
The krolvin destroyer is stricken for 60 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Blow raises a welt on the krolvin destroyer's left arm.
The krolvin destroyer is driven to her knees!
The shadows engulfing your arm fade away into thin tendrils of darkness.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

---

-- Robert

>> [You have failed your current Adventurer's Guild task.]

>>1615 Evoke isn't working on blink weapons. It still flares with the CAST version even when evoked.

That would be a blink weapon enhancement request. You'll need to request it from the script owner.

Viduus

<That would be a blink weapon enhancement request. You'll need to request it from the script owner.>

Who is that and how do we request it?

Thanks!

I'd like to propose 1619 becomes what Champion's Might was since the only current way to get above 400 or even near 450 for that matter is to be more than the "1x training in spells" of the paladin spells to where it's more like you're wanting us at 1.5x training in spells since you know we're going to at least go 20 ranks into Minor Spirit. Just a reminder... 80/20 (at least for ME) is 417 CS in paladin and 374 in Minor. That's 80 ranks in paladin. Just for argument sake, going to 100 (the 1x) improves it to 437CS. I'd like to think Champion's Might isn't "broken" to not at least consider giving it to back to us - even if you up the spell number. I personally rarely use 1619 and am fine trading it to get Champion's Might back. So what if we get another 25 Casting Strength back (the max bonus). It's not broken and it's our version of a needed "heroism spell" since we don't need another 25 AS so much as another protentional 25 CS to just have a decent warding chance. It's ridiculous on some things being give up to get the extra spell ranks to accomplish that unless this is being done on purpose so we aren't being encouraged to open up with Judgement / Aura (which btw.. uses a warding check!). I honestly am feeling like the hybrid is being cut at the knees with Champion's Might being taken away. Granted, I'm slowly (since I don't see the need for a fixskill since this should just take a week) getting to 60 Paladin / 40 Minor spell circles to be "okay" on the warding check but it's still quite noticeable when you're a post capped paladin trying to hunt when you're bread/butter doesn't work as often as it's supposed to.

__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night

You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!

* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!

Interesting... not sure if this is on purpose or not

>prep locate
Mana surges through you in a brilliant display of silvery motes which skitter across your skin as you prepare Locate Person...
Your spell is ready.
>cast XXXXX
Cast at what?
>cast XXXX
You gesture into the air.
[Spell Hindrance for some dark vultite full plate is 96% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 36]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

yet right afterward...

>prep wall of force
Mana surges through you in a brilliant display of silvery motes which skitter across your skin as you prepare Wall of Force...
Your spell is ready.
>ca
You gesture.
A wall of force surrounds you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

I can keep casting WoF with no hindrance, but locate does have the hindrance. Not sure if that's a bug or not.


__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night

You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!

* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!

Yes... all the time I'm able to cast wall of force, etc at 3 percent hindrance. Yet, with locate it's back to "normal". Am I the one that's bugged? Just to clarify: I didn't have clarity up for WoF either. You're more than welcome to pull me to see for yourself. Am I supposed to be able to cast WoF with just 3 hindrance?


__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night

You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!

* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!

The stolen CS is ....gut wrenching.

Bad enough 1630 doesnt do the kind of damage 1030 does or the other high level spells, but now we have lower CS with it?


Using 1618 to forego our paladin attack from 1617 seems like taking away the little identity we have.

Stick with 1617 and the changes have yielded me......lower defense, 25 less CS, same attack with 1 damage flares. Just enough damage to make me feel like i am being trolled .


Watching Rangers love their changes and actually having something new and fun to play with is.......hard to watch.

Over here with a busted 1980 ford truck watching a ferrari getting waxed at the other guy's house.

There are some examples in my earlier posts on this thread of 1615 and 1630 damage. It's not a particularly strong spell compared to what casters have, like 312 or 317 for Clerics. Those do probably 3x the damage that we have on ours, based on a similar end roll.

Mostly, if you get about a 200 endroll, you might end up with 100 dmg combined. It's around maybe 1-1.25x dmg per endroll, as a quick estimate.

~Player of Fulmen Soulforge, Hammer of Eonak.

Thanks for the numbers, Viduus.

Can you tell us the SMC benefit for 1615 here? That's just on the Evoke version, is it?

Does Religion lore have any particular effect on 1615/1630 damage now?

~Player of Fulmen Soulforge, Hammer of Eonak.

People wanting the power of a pure is very strange!

Viduus,
If we are meant to lean more into our weapon for that sweet -25 TD...any chance you'd consider allowing us to infuse our choice of charges up to our max?

>>I feel like I'm giving up too much. Gonna do a real test in the Rift after I eat in about an hour.

Just so you know. I intend to try and make these choices even harder with ascension.

It's probably best if you decide what type of paladin you want to be, and then just work towards that goal.

Viduus

>>The drop in CS is notable for me, changing my CS from 453 or so down to 428. I'm not maximized for CS (only 91 Paladin spells, 20 MnS, and just +10 Wis enhancives from 1625), but I'm right at what feels like the minimum usable CS range now at cap. I succeed on hitting most things at 100 with an endroll that's 100-200ish, so in the 20-100dmg range usually, except things with heavy spirit TD. I have about a 30% chance to hit an Ithzir champion, which is a spelled-up Paladin mob.

You haven't really done much outside of normal training to boost the magic side - 1xing spells is normal expected training. You're a bit over 1x in spells and have about a 30% hit rate on champions. Clerics with 212 spells, which is comparable training, also have around a 30% hit rate on champions.

I'm not sure what you're expecting here. Or stated another way. If you told me that you're a 1x'd CM and 2x'd weapons build, and were unhappy that you had a comparable miss rate to a warrior that's got the same build. I would question the point you're trying to make.

>>If it's hard to ward something, it's more efficient to plink it to death with 1603 and hope for good crits. Or, of course, smash it in the head with a morning star, which is my main route.

This is the way of the semi. When one option falls short, you can switch to another option. The pure and the square with the same miss rates have less options.

>>Either way, we may want to stop talking about Paladins have a casting route. I think it could be confusing the issue and raising hopes for stronger spells.

Paladins have a viable casting route, they just have to work for it.

Viduus

> Just so you know. I intend to try and make these choices even harder with ascension.

> It's probably best if you decide what type of paladin you want to be, and then just work towards that goal.

> Viduus


I'm very excited for that and hope a heavily magical route will be among the choices!

---

https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara_(prime)

>>If we are meant to lean more into our weapon for that sweet -25 TD...any chance you'd consider allowing us to infuse our choice of charges up to our max?

The all or nothing aspect of this is intended to drain off some of your mana. It's a tradeoff for reducing the field infusion time. I can add more control over the process, but it'd most likely mean adding more time to it.

What issue are you running into that more control of the infused charges would fix?

Viduus

>>This is exactly what I mentioned about three months ago: I said if you want people to use 1618 as an exclusive aura that takes away 1609 and 1617, it has to at LEAST be as good for what it does. And even 2x spells, 2x lores, and 1x SMC I'm just not seeing the kill rate from 1615 or 1630 that I see with a crack to the noggin.

...and yet, people are using it. Not every aura is intended to be maximized by every build.

>>I'm hoping this doesn't mean when Ascension skills are put in place that 1618 builds will get all the tasty stuff to bring them up to par and the other two will be given mediocre options. I'd much prefer the three options be on equal footing before the ascension options are designed.

There aren't "1618 builds." There are physical builds, magic builds, and middle of the road builds. I expect to open up avenues for all of those routes.

I get a lot of post cappers aren't thrilled with the baseline changes. You honestly didn't really need the help so you didn't see much change. You saw improvements, but not in the form of further severely boosting your power ceilings. I also explicitly told you all at the beginning of the process that you were not the targeted benefactors of these changes.

Your power ceiling decreased with the loss of 1612, but you came through mostly unscathed. You could have come through this much worse. Your power ceiling was a concern and could have easily been reigned in. Not the least of which is your ability to survive like a cockroach, while having a higher combat stats than most other classes in game, and out DPSing other classes. There were several cuts that could have been made. You could have lost the guarantee on your beseech ability, you could have had your zealot AS cut in half, you could even have had your physical TP costs adjusted upwards to more closely align with the other semi costs, or something like combat maneuvers reduced to a max of 1x, but you didn't.

You also didn't do yourself, or your fellow paladins, any favors by bragging about doing 2k damage when sorcerers got 711 capped. If you think people look at that and think "wow this class is suffering and needs help," then you're wrong. You actually make any arguments for improving it harder to justify and instantly nullify things already on the table. You can blame gear all you like, but while your gear is helping it's not the entire story and no one is buying that it is.

Viduus

" ...and yet, people are using it" doesn't prove anything about the viability of it over other avenues. I wasn't speaking of maximizing a build, and your taking it to extremes to prove a point isn't doing anyone any good. I'm positive you didn't go into the design of the three auras with the concept that "This one should be more beneficial than this one, and this one should be the least beneficial", which means that when it ends up being that way some tweaking is warranted.

"There aren't 1618 builds" is a completely false statement that followed a list of skills that benefit the use of 1618. I appreciate that you're looking into opening up avenues for all of the routes, and like I said earlier in this thread - paladin players should be practicing patience and waiting instead of being up in arms about things. Your work has been appreciated, even by post cappers. I have to ask however, did you make a TWC paladin and see where the changes would leave them? THW paladins? Did you compare the "pure paladin" that you seem to have attempted to create with other existing builds? It's my guess that it's not at all your fault, and that the problem lies in the aim being for 1x lores and a change to the lore chart, but then a jumping-of-ship that left paladins paying far more for their lores and limiting their early mental points if they intended to utilize your magical route.

Yes, a lot of post cappers aren't thrilled with the changes - they can't really be. They benefitted in the form of lowered spell hindrance, but gained little reason to cast any spells outside of pre and post hunt. Their lowered CS has them second guessing what's viable, 1603 has them needing to spend more mana and time on a per mob basis to see any benefit, and 1615 has seen no increase in viability - just the ability to hit weaker if they insist on it forcing the target to kneel. 1630 AoE has been neutered in multiple ways, and they lost the ability to use 1618 alongside their aura choices. Sword and Board paladins saw a big boost and we're happy for that (even those of us who don't use a shield), but you're mistaken if you think our disappointment comes from a "lack of a severe power boost" (paraphrased). Everyone, especially myself, knew that post-cap paladins didn't need a power boost... but neither did we need to take all of this on the chin. Our time to kill remains the lowest in Elanthia (lower than empaths for crying out loud), our available cman list is a complete joke, and the spells that development was hiding behind as a reason for the lack in cmans have now been nerfed to the point of wasted time when compared to a weapon swing. We weren't looking for a boost in power. We were looking for alternatives... and we are being told our alternatives are to switch up our gear that we've spend decades acquiring and pick up a shield if we want to not take a nerf.

I'm not asking for you to overhaul everything you've done thus far - I'm asking for you to not pretend the choice was between this and being nerfed into savant territory. We don't need to be tossing "threats of further nerfing" around. There was (and is) a happy medium here for everyone involved and it may take more time in order to get there. "Mostly unscathed" is a very subjective statement. Saying we could have come through this much worse isn't exactly true either... further nerfs to a class that had the lowest representation would've just rendered them a mistake in creation, and eventually led to the class being 86'd (which was already tossed around as an idea). If paladin power ceiling was a concern, it's only because a true apples to apples comparison was not performed at the given intervals. Paladin survivability is strictly less than warriors (full plate, but nothing for redux, and no EBP cmans), and higher combat stats than described "less physical" classes is expected. The ability to out DPS other classes means nothing what-so-ever in the crit game of GSIV where I can do 300 points unmitigated and still have multiple attacks to go on the target compared to someone who can kill with 30 points to an eyeball. DPS is not the metric, kill speed is, and paladins are at the BOTTOM of the list. Zealot AS being cut in half wouldn't be noticed if it came alongside a non-AS based way to kill viably, like was expected in 1615 or in Smite DI. Losing the ability to guarantee beseech (if it's insisted upon) may have come to pass, but that has nothing to do with a paladin's offensive abilities. You also mention adjusting paladin physical TPs upwards, which would completely fly in the face of retaining a tiered physical to magical ranking for semis that development has touted since this began. Reducing CM to 1x when rangers and bards... you know what? Nevermind. I'm not even going to justify that one with a response.

As far as my post against Reim royalty, this wasn't an attempt to demonstrate what a paladin can do. That attack is able to be done even stronger by a warrior who can 2x in MOC as opposed to our 1x, has just as many "useful" in-combat spells (1), and a complete list of amazing cmans available to them. The post I made was to demonstrate that 711's damage against Reim royalty was NOT a reason for a knee-jerk reaction into a nerfing of 711. And because this is a bit off-topic, it begs the question if your response to the criticism here is of a personal nature.

I get that you don't approve of the way Dhairn hunts. I couldn't care less. You don't have to play him. And as Estild says, you don't balance to any individual player... so why is it such a faux pas to take a look at the loss of 1612? Why can't we address the current costs of lores being raised nullifying the reduction in spell research cost? Why can't we discuss the current damage/crit scaling of 1615, or the complete lack of offensive cmans, or any number of other glaring issues with the paladin changes? We should be promoting diversity in builds before we button it up as "completed" and have to wait another 6 years before someone else complains that it forces them to be sword/board.

>What issue are you running into that more control of the infused charges would fix? -- Viduus

They aren't issues really. There have just been times (my memory is failing to recall exact situations) where I felt that I'd rather have a few charges of 119/1614/1615 in my weapon then go back to 1603 for a bit but wouldn't necessarily want all 35 charges.