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I understand that we are going to have to adjust to the new spell list. We will spend a lot of time trying to figure out what skills get trained in where so they fit our hunting style. But the changes to 616 seem to be quite extensive in the nerf category and makes using the spell as the primary damage source, at least in OTF North from my testing, as a non-viable option. What used to take 3 to 4 casts without tangleweed, now takes on average 7 to 8, not including misses due to the SMRv2 changes. Adepts and seers are now dodging spike quite frequently, when it used to be practically never. Now ever since I started hunting OTF, I have used spike and it has been quite effective. From what I have tested, the option of using spike as a primary attack tool is over and it needs to be either augmented with physical attack follow-ups or additional casting of spells which increase the cost and lowers the viability of using a "druid" archetype. I have tried wild entropy but the low damage and low crit makes it feel like spike drawn out over time, even with the special "cast it again to finish the damage cycles".
Below is an excerpt from hunting a champion, I even started casting tangleweed to try to assist in the damage and crit chance. I took out the spell hindrance and the champ swinging. This took 8 casts to kill which costs 128 mana, not including the miss which raises it to 144 nor the tangleweed set up which increases it to 154 for a single champion.
I'm still testing, but it seems extensive enough to me to get this out there now. Is this being looked at?
>w
[Old Ta'Faendryl, North Valley]
The sheer stone face of the foothill butts up against the exterior wall of the city. Whatever narrow space once existed between wall and cliff has filled up with the detritus of countless years, now packed into tight seal of dirt and vegetation. You also see an Ithzir champion.
Obvious paths: north, east
>prep 610
A haze of black mist gathers around you as you prepare Tangleweed...
Your spell is ready.
>cast cham
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A thrashing vathor club capped with bright red berries suddenly sprouts from the ground and begins to thrash about violently!
[SMR result: 91 (Open d100: 23)]
The vathor club lashes out at an Ithzir champion, but is unable to grasp him.
[SMR result: 148 (Open d100: 81)]
The vathor club lashes out violently at an Ithzir champion, dragging him to the ground!
You notice a number of the club's spiky clusters scrape into an Ithzir champion's skin. He suddenly looks very weak!
Thin tendrils of club twine around you, instilling you with their strength.
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 100 (Open d100: 12, Bonus: 20)]
The champion manages to get out of the way!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Nature's blessing of vitality departs as your strength returns to its previous state.
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 142 (Open d100: 55, Bonus: 20)]
One of the thorns jabs into the champion!
... hits for 15 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Strike pierces upper arm!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An Ithzir champion rises to his feet, his green eyes blazing!
>
[SMR result: 161 (Open d100: 92, Bonus: 2)]
The vathor club lashes out violently at an Ithzir champion, dragging him to the ground!
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 181 (Open d100: 92, Bonus: 22)]
Several of the thorns jab into the champion!
... hits for 22 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Nailed in lower back!
... hits for 34 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Loud crack as the Ithzir champion's sternum breaks!
Soot brown specks of leaf mold trail in the wake of an Ithzir champion's movements, distorted by a murky haze.
The vitality of nature bestows you with a burst of strength!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 616
Wait 2 sec.
>incant 616
Wait 1 sec.
>
An Ithzir champion grunts as he rises to his feet.
>
[SMR result: 126 (Open d100: 53, Bonus: 7)]
The vathor club lashes out violently at an Ithzir champion, dragging him to the ground!
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 134 (Open d100: 40, Bonus: 27)]
One of the thorns jabs into the champion!
... hits for 16 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the chest.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 121 (Open d100: 26, Bonus: 29)]
One of the thorns jabs into the champion!
... hits for 13 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 1 point of damage!
Strike to left hand breaks a fingernail!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An Ithzir champion stands up with a grunt.
>incant 616
>
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 104 (Open d100: 28, Bonus: 9)]
One of the thorns jabs into the champion!
... hits for 9 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the right leg.
The earthy, sweet aroma clinging to an Ithzir champion grows more pervasive.
The vitality of nature bestows you with a burst of strength!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
[SMR result: 151 (Open d100: 74, Bonus: 10)]
The vathor club lashes out violently at an Ithzir champion, dragging him to the ground!
>incant 616
Wait 1 sec.
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 107 (Open d100: 10, Bonus: 30)]
One of the thorns jabs into the champion!
... hits for 12 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 3 points of damage!
Minor strike to the neck.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An Ithzir champion's movements no longer appear to be influenced by a divine power as the spiritual force fades from around his arms.
>
An Ithzir champion grunts as he rises to his feet.
>
[SMR result: 205 (Open d100: 127, Bonus: 11)]
The vathor club lashes out violently at an Ithzir champion, dragging him to the ground!
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 152 (Open d100: 55, Bonus: 31)]
Several of the thorns jab into the champion!
... hits for 24 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor strike to the neck.
... hits for 11 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 25 points of damage!
Shot to the hand slices a finger to the bone!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
For some reason, you feel extremely lucky.
[SMR result: 219 (Open d100: 118, Bonus: 34)]
Several of the thorns jab into the champion!
... hits for 30 points of damage!
The Ithzir champion vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.
The light blue glow leaves an Ithzir champion.
The powerful look leaves an Ithzir champion.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting an Ithzir champion begins to falter, then completely fades away.
An Ithzir champion appears to recover some strength.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>I'm still testing, but it seems extensive enough to me to get this out there now. Is this being looked at? -NORMANT
Champions are a couple levels above cap, so they are not going to be ideal targets. That said, if you want to go a more pure caster route, open with Sounds to boost your SMR chances. Any hit with Moonbeam will also give them a hefty penalty. Your companion will also synergize well with SMR debuffs/knockdowns. Make sure to resummon it to get its level to recalculate.
-M.
Champions are a couple levels above cap, so they are not going to be ideal targets. That said, if you want to go a more pure caster route, open with Sounds to boost your SMR chances. Any hit with Moonbeam will also give them a hefty penalty. Your companion will also synergize well with SMR debuffs/knockdowns. Make sure to resummon it to get its level to recalculate.
-M.
>I'm still testing, but it seems extensive enough to me to get this out there now. Is this being looked at? -NORMANT
>Champions are a couple levels above cap, so they are not going to be ideal targets. That said, if you want to go a more pure caster route, open with Sounds to boost your SMR chances. Any hit with Moonbeam will also give them a hefty penalty. Your companion will also synergize well with SMR debuffs/knockdowns. Make sure to resummon it to get its level to recalculate.
>-M.
That has helped a lot. War griffin's are coming out of the Moonbeam bind rather rapidly. Doesn't matter what endroll I get on the SMR, they regain their composure within a couple of seconds.
>Champions are a couple levels above cap, so they are not going to be ideal targets. That said, if you want to go a more pure caster route, open with Sounds to boost your SMR chances. Any hit with Moonbeam will also give them a hefty penalty. Your companion will also synergize well with SMR debuffs/knockdowns. Make sure to resummon it to get its level to recalculate.
>-M.
That has helped a lot. War griffin's are coming out of the Moonbeam bind rather rapidly. Doesn't matter what endroll I get on the SMR, they regain their composure within a couple of seconds.
For a solo hunt, that seems logical. In groups, be it Reim, bandit hunting, or invasion creatures, you don't have time to target, 607, 611, then spike it. So now 616 becomes less an option during madness of screen scroll. I guess this is where 603 would work? But from what I have seen its a DoT attack, also good for solo and not quick, single damage output good for those types of groups. Perhaps a channeled form of Spikethorn that adds extra umph. Or a boost to CS and a way to focus 635 if this 'pure caster' is to be more viable.
>>you don't have time to target, 607, 611, then spike it.
Agreed in group hunts. But then - you also should not need these steps in a group hunt. If someone disables, someone prones, and the ranger spikes, it's the same as if the ranger disabled, the ranger proned and the ranger spiked.
So I'm not sure it's an apple. Seems more like a banana in that comparison.
Doug
Agreed in group hunts. But then - you also should not need these steps in a group hunt. If someone disables, someone prones, and the ranger spikes, it's the same as if the ranger disabled, the ranger proned and the ranger spiked.
So I'm not sure it's an apple. Seems more like a banana in that comparison.
Doug
>That has helped a lot. War griffin's are coming out of the Moonbeam bind rather rapidly. Doesn't matter what endroll I get on the SMR, they regain their composure within a couple of seconds.
That's how a lot of post-cap enemies are with binding effects, shaking them off almost instantly (other examples of effects include, say, 316 and 214... and other examples of enemies include literally everything in the Sanctum and Confluence).
Why it's this way, I have no idea. Maybe now it can finally get re-examined.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
That's how a lot of post-cap enemies are with binding effects, shaking them off almost instantly (other examples of effects include, say, 316 and 214... and other examples of enemies include literally everything in the Sanctum and Confluence).
Why it's this way, I have no idea. Maybe now it can finally get re-examined.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
>That's how a lot of post-cap enemies are with binding effects, shaking them off almost instantly (other examples of effects include, say, 316 and 214... and other examples of enemies include literally everything in the Sanctum and Confluence).
While I would generally agree with you, I had an endroll of 123 on 611 with a war griffin, wound up coming out after a couple of seconds. I had an endroll of 120 on a champion, wound up coming out of it after about 10 to 15 seconds. Now, while I was messing around some more, I did notice that whenever my tangleweed grabbed the war griffin or my AC attacked it, it delayed it from coming out of it. The discrepancy between the two is odd, unless it is designed that way.
While I would generally agree with you, I had an endroll of 123 on 611 with a war griffin, wound up coming out after a couple of seconds. I had an endroll of 120 on a champion, wound up coming out of it after about 10 to 15 seconds. Now, while I was messing around some more, I did notice that whenever my tangleweed grabbed the war griffin or my AC attacked it, it delayed it from coming out of it. The discrepancy between the two is odd, unless it is designed that way.
Not entirely familiar with 610 or especially the new animal companion attacks post-change, but if they inflict RT then that would explain it. Shaking off immobility happens on the next combat action, so inducing RT delays that.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
>Not entirely familiar with 610 or especially the new animal companion attacks post-change, but if they inflict RT then that would explain it. Shaking off immobility happens on the next combat action, so inducing RT delays that. -LEAFIARA
That is indeed the case. Both Tangleweed and Animal Companions inflict roundtime on the target when they make successful attacks.
-M.
That is indeed the case. Both Tangleweed and Animal Companions inflict roundtime on the target when they make successful attacks.
-M.
<<Right now 616 kills a champ in about 3 casts for me, changing it to 7-8 casts or requiring additional time, mana, and hindrance RNG to get that same effectiveness? That sounds horrible. Suddenly I'm not nearly as interested in the new ranger changes.
I'm trying to understand this 616 change to SMRv2 in context of other changes. From the spell review doc 603 has a negative nature resistance effect / debuff.
So does the new 603 nature debuff help set up 609, 610, 616, companion attacks (e.g. nature) to be more effective? Is that efficacy chance to hit, damage/crit if hit, both or neither?
I'm trying to understand this 616 change to SMRv2 in context of other changes. From the spell review doc 603 has a negative nature resistance effect / debuff.
So does the new 603 nature debuff help set up 609, 610, 616, companion attacks (e.g. nature) to be more effective? Is that efficacy chance to hit, damage/crit if hit, both or neither?
>603 and 611 should help with 616. I like to see a 611 616 combo.
603 assists with increasing the damage through a nature damage debuff. 607 adds a penalty to SMR, which adds a bonus to 616 and 611 casts. 611 adds a penalty to SMR, which adds a flat 100 bonus to SMR to 616 casts.
So you can do an advanced setup of 603 (nature damage resistance debuff), 607 (smr penalty to add bonus to roll for a 611 cast and carry over to 616), 611 (smr penalty to add 100 bonus to roll for 616), 616 over and over again till dead.
Here is a 611/616 combo.
>>w
[Old Ta'Faendryl, North Valley]
A massive oak tree grows across the rock-strewn path, branches spreading out in regal glory in all directions, acorns dispersed in profuse abundance about its base. Scattered up the side of the hill are a few oak saplings, twisted and bent, like the unnourished offspring of a prolific, but uncaring despot. You also see an Ithzir champion.
Obvious paths: east, west
>incant 611
A haze of black mist gathers around you as you prepare Moonbeam...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Tapping the moons above, you draw down a shaft of swirling moonlight and bathe an Ithzir champion in its lucent glow.
[SMR result: 121 (Open d100: 54)]
An Ithzir champion is caught fast, the light of Lornon arresting her movements.
Soot brown specks of leaf mold trail in the wake of an Ithzir champion's movements, distorted by a murky haze.
The vitality of nature bestows you with a burst of strength!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 212 (Open d100: 44, Bonus: 100)]
Several of the thorns jab into the champion!
... hits for 10 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 40 points of damage!
Great shot penetrates thigh and shatters bone!
It is knocked to the ground!
... hits for 29 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 40 points of damage!
Deft strike to abdomen penetrates several useful organs!
... hits for 32 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 30 points of damage!
Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!
The Ithzir champion vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.
The light blue glow leaves an Ithzir champion.
The powerful look leaves an Ithzir champion.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting an Ithzir champion begins to falter, then completely fades away.
An Ithzir champion's movements no longer appear to be influenced by a divine power as the spiritual force fades from around her arms.
An Ithzir champion's movements no longer appear hampered as the lunar light encircling her fades away.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
603 assists with increasing the damage through a nature damage debuff. 607 adds a penalty to SMR, which adds a bonus to 616 and 611 casts. 611 adds a penalty to SMR, which adds a flat 100 bonus to SMR to 616 casts.
So you can do an advanced setup of 603 (nature damage resistance debuff), 607 (smr penalty to add bonus to roll for a 611 cast and carry over to 616), 611 (smr penalty to add 100 bonus to roll for 616), 616 over and over again till dead.
Here is a 611/616 combo.
>>w
[Old Ta'Faendryl, North Valley]
A massive oak tree grows across the rock-strewn path, branches spreading out in regal glory in all directions, acorns dispersed in profuse abundance about its base. Scattered up the side of the hill are a few oak saplings, twisted and bent, like the unnourished offspring of a prolific, but uncaring despot. You also see an Ithzir champion.
Obvious paths: east, west
>incant 611
A haze of black mist gathers around you as you prepare Moonbeam...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Tapping the moons above, you draw down a shaft of swirling moonlight and bathe an Ithzir champion in its lucent glow.
[SMR result: 121 (Open d100: 54)]
An Ithzir champion is caught fast, the light of Lornon arresting her movements.
Soot brown specks of leaf mold trail in the wake of an Ithzir champion's movements, distorted by a murky haze.
The vitality of nature bestows you with a burst of strength!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 616
You utter a sharp phrase, tiny thorns rippling across your arms in a wave that moves toward your hands.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath an Ithzir champion!
[SMR result: 212 (Open d100: 44, Bonus: 100)]
Several of the thorns jab into the champion!
... hits for 10 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 40 points of damage!
Great shot penetrates thigh and shatters bone!
It is knocked to the ground!
... hits for 29 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 40 points of damage!
Deft strike to abdomen penetrates several useful organs!
... hits for 32 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding an Ithzir champion seems to attract some of the thorns.
... 30 points of damage!
Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!
The Ithzir champion vainly struggles to rise, then goes still.
The light blue glow leaves an Ithzir champion.
The powerful look leaves an Ithzir champion.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting an Ithzir champion begins to falter, then completely fades away.
An Ithzir champion's movements no longer appear to be influenced by a divine power as the spiritual force fades from around her arms.
An Ithzir champion's movements no longer appear hampered as the lunar light encircling her fades away.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
>So to me from that example isn't that better then 3 616 cast and even less mana use?
It is, but it depends on the situation. First SMR you can just miss out of the blue from like level opponents. It is rare, very rare, for me to miss in OTF right now. Second, this setup requires additional time to prepare, even longer if you are going for the 603/607/611 setup or the 607/611 setup as that adds 9 to 6 seconds of casting time in front. All this prep can leave you open to attack from other critters and let's say you are fighting a champ and setting up, a seer comes in and you want to kill the seer before the champ, now you have a decision to either stop the setup on the champ and setup the seer or continue and risk. The old way I just spiked, then a seer came in, spiked it and finished it off and continued on the champ before the champ could even swing again from being knocked down.
Personally I'm ok with this, but in crowded hunting areas, this might get annoying and in capped areas it can increase the risk to the ranger. But then you have 610... 615... AC... etc... so it's a preference.
It is, but it depends on the situation. First SMR you can just miss out of the blue from like level opponents. It is rare, very rare, for me to miss in OTF right now. Second, this setup requires additional time to prepare, even longer if you are going for the 603/607/611 setup or the 607/611 setup as that adds 9 to 6 seconds of casting time in front. All this prep can leave you open to attack from other critters and let's say you are fighting a champ and setting up, a seer comes in and you want to kill the seer before the champ, now you have a decision to either stop the setup on the champ and setup the seer or continue and risk. The old way I just spiked, then a seer came in, spiked it and finished it off and continued on the champ before the champ could even swing again from being knocked down.
Personally I'm ok with this, but in crowded hunting areas, this might get annoying and in capped areas it can increase the risk to the ranger. But then you have 610... 615... AC... etc... so it's a preference.
I don't really have a say in how it all functions, but it feels like they offered a more "magical" approach to being a ranger, but the cost is slowing down the process to be fairly effective.
My limited ranger play had me kind of going the standard route of being good at hiding with using 608 and ambushing with fairly lethal results. Kind of reminded me of an overpowered rogue at the time I had this character, but he just couldn't open his own boxes.
The magical route adjustments feels like they piggybacked on what they did with mages.
(I had a long, drawn out set of bullet points....but figured it was just an eye sore to drag around all the issues already known so I just deleted the last 20 minutes I wasted typing them all out....)
Basically, I'm just trying to say is the GMs added more flavor (yeah!), but made it so it takes longer to get the same results you were seeing before (this isn't always the case, but kind of feels like it is majority of the time), based on most of the feedback posted here.
And for those of you new to SMRv2 based attack spell: If you are using it on creatures that are higher level than you, expect the results you see to get worse and worse as the level difference between you and the creature increases. Using the spell, even with proper setup, on a creature that's higher level - unless you get some amazing open rolls - the damage and crits you see will feel kind of underwhelming to downright worthless for the mana you spent. 917 works that way as well....sure, it can be devastating, but if you cast it against a creature 2+ levels over you, you will see a dramatic difference in crits/damage compared to creatures that are like level or slightly under your level. Night and day difference.
My limited ranger play had me kind of going the standard route of being good at hiding with using 608 and ambushing with fairly lethal results. Kind of reminded me of an overpowered rogue at the time I had this character, but he just couldn't open his own boxes.
The magical route adjustments feels like they piggybacked on what they did with mages.
(I had a long, drawn out set of bullet points....but figured it was just an eye sore to drag around all the issues already known so I just deleted the last 20 minutes I wasted typing them all out....)
Basically, I'm just trying to say is the GMs added more flavor (yeah!), but made it so it takes longer to get the same results you were seeing before (this isn't always the case, but kind of feels like it is majority of the time), based on most of the feedback posted here.
And for those of you new to SMRv2 based attack spell: If you are using it on creatures that are higher level than you, expect the results you see to get worse and worse as the level difference between you and the creature increases. Using the spell, even with proper setup, on a creature that's higher level - unless you get some amazing open rolls - the damage and crits you see will feel kind of underwhelming to downright worthless for the mana you spent. 917 works that way as well....sure, it can be devastating, but if you cast it against a creature 2+ levels over you, you will see a dramatic difference in crits/damage compared to creatures that are like level or slightly under your level. Night and day difference.
>So net gain for Rangers overall? Net loss? what’s the verdict? and by how much?
Well, from a lower level perspective (40), the gain overall has been quite fantastic. I really enjoy the weaving of magic/physical attacks and so abilities that promote this mix has been right up my alley.
As far as "how much" I think it is harder to say. I don't mind the short term boost to AS from 610 or 625 because I do cast 610 quite often so it immediately feels like a really nice boost to me.
With that being said, I don't know if Rangers needed a power boost so it is hard to say if Mestys was trying to raise the bar in that manner. He definitely achieved what most classes need in my opinion, which is more flavor. If you were the type that just kept spamming 616/635 then you may find these changes less desirable because it seems early testing has shown directly casting 616 has been less powerful than current implementation. However, a few clips of people casting 603/611 and then 616 really seems powerful.
>Well, from a lower level perspective (40), the gain overall has been quite fantastic. I really enjoy the weaving of magic/physical attacks and so abilities that promote this mix has been right up my alley.
From a capped ranger, it will take some getting used to. The changes alter the approach to playing a druid ranger since the setup is crucial in how powerful/effective the spike thorn attack is, which still seems to be the primary form of attack. I have said it before, the longer you are in a capped hunting ground fight, your chances of dying increase. Most high level critters need to be killed rather quickly or immobilized fast and the setup times give them more slots to kill you. The immobilize effect of 611 does help and that seems to be the primary attribute in spike casting, so it could be a wash. But for the really effective 603/607/610 (summoning lore assists in SMR)/611/616 setup, that is 12 seconds minimum for a single shot at a critter, though that setup seems to be even more powerful that my spike today.
>With that being said, I don't know if Rangers needed a power boost so it is hard to say if Mestys was trying to raise the bar in that manner. He definitely achieved what most classes need in my opinion, which is more flavor. If you were the type that just kept spamming 616/635 then you may find these changes less desirable because it seems early testing has shown directly casting 616 has been less powerful than current implementation. However, a few clips of people casting 603/611 and then 616 really seems powerful.
I don't think rangers needed a "setup" for spike. 603/607/611 does assist in maintaining the "damage" and "success" factor of spike today, but that extra 3/6/9 seconds of setup is hindering. I'm sure this was to offset the SMRv2 changes that DRASTICALLY lowered the damage output and criticals of spike. I mean, holy hell, when I first casted spike on test and killed a critter that took 7 to 8 casts when the current iteration takes only 3 to 4, I about sold out. That's how screwed up it was because the only mention on the spell changes for spike was "Convert to SMRv2", which is still written as of this post. So it took some experimenting, conversations with other rangers and Mestys to clear up most of the confusion and initial shock of a spike nerf, which it can be called since that is what it is.
From a capped ranger, it will take some getting used to. The changes alter the approach to playing a druid ranger since the setup is crucial in how powerful/effective the spike thorn attack is, which still seems to be the primary form of attack. I have said it before, the longer you are in a capped hunting ground fight, your chances of dying increase. Most high level critters need to be killed rather quickly or immobilized fast and the setup times give them more slots to kill you. The immobilize effect of 611 does help and that seems to be the primary attribute in spike casting, so it could be a wash. But for the really effective 603/607/610 (summoning lore assists in SMR)/611/616 setup, that is 12 seconds minimum for a single shot at a critter, though that setup seems to be even more powerful that my spike today.
>With that being said, I don't know if Rangers needed a power boost so it is hard to say if Mestys was trying to raise the bar in that manner. He definitely achieved what most classes need in my opinion, which is more flavor. If you were the type that just kept spamming 616/635 then you may find these changes less desirable because it seems early testing has shown directly casting 616 has been less powerful than current implementation. However, a few clips of people casting 603/611 and then 616 really seems powerful.
I don't think rangers needed a "setup" for spike. 603/607/611 does assist in maintaining the "damage" and "success" factor of spike today, but that extra 3/6/9 seconds of setup is hindering. I'm sure this was to offset the SMRv2 changes that DRASTICALLY lowered the damage output and criticals of spike. I mean, holy hell, when I first casted spike on test and killed a critter that took 7 to 8 casts when the current iteration takes only 3 to 4, I about sold out. That's how screwed up it was because the only mention on the spell changes for spike was "Convert to SMRv2", which is still written as of this post. So it took some experimenting, conversations with other rangers and Mestys to clear up most of the confusion and initial shock of a spike nerf, which it can be called since that is what it is.
I admittedly haven't toyed around with this, but it seems problematic to me if post-cap rangers suddenly have to set up with relatively expensive spells before 616, which itself is an expensive spell, since they don't have 3x Harness Power nor even 2x SMC to sustain that.
To be totally clear, let me reiterate the word "post-cap" and clarify that I'm talking about those with 162+ Ranger Base ranks. I have no issue with 100 or even 130 ranks needing setup.
Maybe the AoE changes will help a little here, since the current player-unsafe 635 with high CS is a great payoff that's kind of discouraged right now, but I still feel like 616 should be standalone good too with extreme spell ranks. I guess part of it comes back to the question of how many enemies are going to be overleveled in future capped hunting grounds. (Or, I should say, overleveled and having square or semi skill training to actually dodge 616. I think overleveled pures would still get destroyed.)
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
To be totally clear, let me reiterate the word "post-cap" and clarify that I'm talking about those with 162+ Ranger Base ranks. I have no issue with 100 or even 130 ranks needing setup.
Maybe the AoE changes will help a little here, since the current player-unsafe 635 with high CS is a great payoff that's kind of discouraged right now, but I still feel like 616 should be standalone good too with extreme spell ranks. I guess part of it comes back to the question of how many enemies are going to be overleveled in future capped hunting grounds. (Or, I should say, overleveled and having square or semi skill training to actually dodge 616. I think overleveled pures would still get destroyed.)
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
>This might be bordering on conspiracy theorizing. But there does seem to be a trend with these changes of buffing the non-cap levels and kinda nerfing or more debuffing the post-cap levels. Is this what everyone is getting from these changes, why or why not?
Here's my take on it. They are effectively doing away with "single spell" defining for circles. Spike was the primary attack spell and every ranger used it as the primary magical attack. It was level, spell rank-based based and worked well on like-level, mid-above, and low-level targets. When they moved this to SMRv2, rather than write in an exception to SMRv2 for spike or adjust SMRv2 and have to rebalance everything else, they added debuffs/buffs to spells to offset the SEVERE, let me be utterly and completely clear "SEVERE", nerfing of the spell with a "setup" style premise. As more and more things move to SMRv2, you can expect to see this kind of change.
Most capped/post-capped/rerolled rangers have done things a particular way millions, literally millions, of times and have gear, macros, scripts, hell even muscle memory, invested in that particular style. The biggest complaint isn't that the spell changed, it's the ENTIRE way we have to make spike EFFECTIVE to continue our hunting. For those that are young, not that much invested and can adjust course more easily.
I love everything that was done to the ranger spell review, except 616. I believe I can work with it, but it is risk-inducing and time-waste to do a "setup" for a spell that out of the gate should function like it has with a success check moved to SMRv2. Either you get slammed with previous damage and criticals calculated by ranger-ranks and level, with success determined by the SMRv2 check, or you don't. That should have been the decision and move on. Not the nerfing of the spell to a degree with a thinly veiled "druid diversity" masking that now demands more ranger risk and sacrifice.
But yes, I have noticed a trend of buffing lower and nerfing (not even kinda) the post-cap. If this has taught anyone anything, it's that you need to cherish your signature defining profession spell while you can. Hug it, kiss it gently, and tuck it in at night when you return to the real world. Because one day you will find it on a spell review sheet with the only description... "Convert to SMRv2"...
Here's my take on it. They are effectively doing away with "single spell" defining for circles. Spike was the primary attack spell and every ranger used it as the primary magical attack. It was level, spell rank-based based and worked well on like-level, mid-above, and low-level targets. When they moved this to SMRv2, rather than write in an exception to SMRv2 for spike or adjust SMRv2 and have to rebalance everything else, they added debuffs/buffs to spells to offset the SEVERE, let me be utterly and completely clear "SEVERE", nerfing of the spell with a "setup" style premise. As more and more things move to SMRv2, you can expect to see this kind of change.
Most capped/post-capped/rerolled rangers have done things a particular way millions, literally millions, of times and have gear, macros, scripts, hell even muscle memory, invested in that particular style. The biggest complaint isn't that the spell changed, it's the ENTIRE way we have to make spike EFFECTIVE to continue our hunting. For those that are young, not that much invested and can adjust course more easily.
I love everything that was done to the ranger spell review, except 616. I believe I can work with it, but it is risk-inducing and time-waste to do a "setup" for a spell that out of the gate should function like it has with a success check moved to SMRv2. Either you get slammed with previous damage and criticals calculated by ranger-ranks and level, with success determined by the SMRv2 check, or you don't. That should have been the decision and move on. Not the nerfing of the spell to a degree with a thinly veiled "druid diversity" masking that now demands more ranger risk and sacrifice.
But yes, I have noticed a trend of buffing lower and nerfing (not even kinda) the post-cap. If this has taught anyone anything, it's that you need to cherish your signature defining profession spell while you can. Hug it, kiss it gently, and tuck it in at night when you return to the real world. Because one day you will find it on a spell review sheet with the only description... "Convert to SMRv2"...
>I admittedly haven't toyed around with this, but it seems problematic to me if post-cap rangers suddenly have to set up with relatively expensive spells before 616, which itself is an expensive spell, since they don't have 3x Harness Power nor even 2x SMC to sustain that.
This I do agree with, but not for mana reasons. What I would rather see is a chaining of these setups for a time reduction, like having 3 seconds of casting time for 611/616 total. The same for a 607/616, 603/616, etc... The added time to "buff" the spike or "debuff" the target adds unnecessary risk to hunting for semi's who, with increased chances of a straight up SMRv2 dodge added on with spell hindrance, makes it unfeasible to go beyond hard leathers now and increases the risk further for those that are in hard leathers. As this sinks in and as play styles that were diverse through gear, physical/magical switches, etc.. now narrow those lanes the "diversity" of styles actually seem restrictive to a "setup or it's useless" style that requires you to do something specific, not unique.
For instance, I was hunting just fine with a little over 50 ranger ranks in OTF with my spike. Didn't plan on increasing it anytime soon, but now those additional ranks don't really matter when dealing with spike. If that was my only reason for overtraining, what's the point? ranger spell ranks are now done at 16, in regards to spike as that is one less reason to train the ranger circle. Unless there is some added benefit that no one is talking about, ranger ranks mean nothing in regards to spike and a fixskills for rangers will be necessary for most capped rangers.
Man that was a rant... back to the topic.
While I would be all for 3x HP and/or 2x SMC options, I would rather see the casting times for the "setup" eliminated or reduced. It's unnecessary for a signature spell.
>To be totally clear, let me reiterate the word "post-cap" and clarify that I'm talking about those with 162+ Ranger Base ranks. I have no issue with 100 or even 130 ranks needing setup.
I would say leave the existing damage and crit calculation alone. In my opinion, the "setup" should only be connected with enhancing SMRv2 success.
>I guess part of it comes back to the question of how many enemies are going to be overleveled in future capped hunting grounds. (Or, I should say, overleveled and having square or semi skill training to actually dodge 616. I think overleveled pures would still get destroyed.)
I can tell you from hunting in OTF and not having any training differences on the test instance, everything about spike, without a setup, is nerfed to unusable. I rarely post or even make mention about things or even use extremes, but without other spell assistance (i.e. a "setup"), spike is UTTERLY "useless". This also applies with success even with connecting an SMRv2 spike. ADEPTS and SEERS were DODGING my spike without a setup... magical creatures my junior were DODGING my SMRv2 spike without a "setup". So to be honest, it doesn't matter if the enemy is overleveled or my junior, spike without "setup" is utterly and completely useless and will get a ranger killed.
Now that's not to say the "setups" don't work, they do. I would have preferred an SMRv2 success buff with 611 and 607 and kept the level/spell ranks calculations for damage and criticals. But hey, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt now that we have seen a "Convert to SMRv2". I anxiously await to see what happens with Paladins and Bards.
This I do agree with, but not for mana reasons. What I would rather see is a chaining of these setups for a time reduction, like having 3 seconds of casting time for 611/616 total. The same for a 607/616, 603/616, etc... The added time to "buff" the spike or "debuff" the target adds unnecessary risk to hunting for semi's who, with increased chances of a straight up SMRv2 dodge added on with spell hindrance, makes it unfeasible to go beyond hard leathers now and increases the risk further for those that are in hard leathers. As this sinks in and as play styles that were diverse through gear, physical/magical switches, etc.. now narrow those lanes the "diversity" of styles actually seem restrictive to a "setup or it's useless" style that requires you to do something specific, not unique.
For instance, I was hunting just fine with a little over 50 ranger ranks in OTF with my spike. Didn't plan on increasing it anytime soon, but now those additional ranks don't really matter when dealing with spike. If that was my only reason for overtraining, what's the point? ranger spell ranks are now done at 16, in regards to spike as that is one less reason to train the ranger circle. Unless there is some added benefit that no one is talking about, ranger ranks mean nothing in regards to spike and a fixskills for rangers will be necessary for most capped rangers.
Man that was a rant... back to the topic.
While I would be all for 3x HP and/or 2x SMC options, I would rather see the casting times for the "setup" eliminated or reduced. It's unnecessary for a signature spell.
>To be totally clear, let me reiterate the word "post-cap" and clarify that I'm talking about those with 162+ Ranger Base ranks. I have no issue with 100 or even 130 ranks needing setup.
I would say leave the existing damage and crit calculation alone. In my opinion, the "setup" should only be connected with enhancing SMRv2 success.
>I guess part of it comes back to the question of how many enemies are going to be overleveled in future capped hunting grounds. (Or, I should say, overleveled and having square or semi skill training to actually dodge 616. I think overleveled pures would still get destroyed.)
I can tell you from hunting in OTF and not having any training differences on the test instance, everything about spike, without a setup, is nerfed to unusable. I rarely post or even make mention about things or even use extremes, but without other spell assistance (i.e. a "setup"), spike is UTTERLY "useless". This also applies with success even with connecting an SMRv2 spike. ADEPTS and SEERS were DODGING my spike without a setup... magical creatures my junior were DODGING my SMRv2 spike without a "setup". So to be honest, it doesn't matter if the enemy is overleveled or my junior, spike without "setup" is utterly and completely useless and will get a ranger killed.
Now that's not to say the "setups" don't work, they do. I would have preferred an SMRv2 success buff with 611 and 607 and kept the level/spell ranks calculations for damage and criticals. But hey, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt now that we have seen a "Convert to SMRv2". I anxiously await to see what happens with Paladins and Bards.
Add me to the list of people who feel the overall benefits of these changes are lacking and would prefer to keep things as is.
616 now requires 603 or 611, even with 162 ranger ranks.
There's no AS boost that is needed, at baseline.
All these changes do is increase roundtime and decrease killing power.
Tried the new changes again on the test server. My training path (what some call a weed mage) is narrow, focused, and relies almost exclusively on 616 with 182 ranger spells, 20 minor spirit spells with 101 ranks of summoning lore. The results are similar to what I experience now in OTF against the champions, adepts, and seers using 616. 611 and 616 work well against Griffins and was an improvement over the 610 and 616 spell combo I use now. 616 seems to work about the same with my 182 ranger spell ranks and 101 summoning lore in OTF. May try some runs on the test server without lore and see what that looks like.
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