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Hello all,
I was asked to bring this debate over here, onto said WM's home turf. Not one to back down from a challenge, I've decided to come here and let ya'll beat on me. :)
My point: The new Chill Spirit spell, while good, is not Fire Shard, which in my opinion as a TF occasionally PvPing WM with 120 TM, is one of the premiere TM spells around, particularly in conjunction with an Ice Patch from hiding.
Granted, FS is not perfect and is blockable with shield. But here's what I know:
Of 5 casts of a ten prep from a WM with 300 pm, I've been hit with at least two fire all five times, 3 shards twice, and 4 once. This WM had 130 TM vs my 180 evasion. I died three times. The other two I survived with little injury. Go figure.
My 20th WM killed a 30th barb with an IP/FS combo. Took 3 casts, but it happened. there.
Now, let's get to ChS. Good spell, and it attacks something new - spirit. Now, understandably, many players are not set up to resist a spirit attack very well. Furthermore, as far as I know right now, you need to evade the spell or have PFE up for protection. The spell can stun, and it can kill. But I've yet to see it kill in one shot. The spell pulses during a kill - it is not an "instagib," or whatever the term is. It's also fairly inaccurate. I know that my 50th Cleric couldnt do much to a 70th Pallie with ChS, and the pallie was just standing there.
Another advantage FS has - it hits the second you type cast. ChS hits, gives a one second RT, then takes between 1 and 2 seconds to do it's damage. Were I and a WM to cast at each other, with the WM getting his command off a split second later, he would still get the spell in due to this itty pause before the damage gen, probably killing/stunning me. Depending on my prep, I might get a stun in. If his charisma is good, I probably won't, leaving me most likely stunned and hurt.
Both good spells, but I feel FS has the edge, especially when people catch up with the charisma.
-Statis
<<Fire shard is incredibly difficult to get damage with now. Even casting at things below my level, half the shards are absorbed by armor. Fire shard has about twice the number of defense factors as Chill Spirit and in general people have much, much higher stamina than charisma, so it does less relative damage. It also doesn't teach NEARLY as well. Face it, you have a grudge, no matter the actual facts.>>
I still learn well from it, but yes, I haven't tested it in a while (3 weeks.) Frankly, I think you have a grudge as well, if not a touch of jealously that we got something good for once.
ChS is still subject to the PvP problems as listed below. I will agree that the potential for the new spirit attacks makes us scary, but ChS does not. It's not fast enough or violent enough.
-Statis
I still learn well from it, but yes, I haven't tested it in a while (3 weeks.) Frankly, I think you have a grudge as well, if not a touch of jealously that we got something good for once.
ChS is still subject to the PvP problems as listed below. I will agree that the potential for the new spirit attacks makes us scary, but ChS does not. It's not fast enough or violent enough.
-Statis
>I still learn well from it, but yes, I haven't tested it in a while (3 weeks.) Frankly, I think you have a grudge as well, if not a touch of jealously that we got something good for once.
No, I'm concerned that clerics have the ultimate targeted magic spell. It's unblockable, unabsorbable, its damage is based off a stat that until very recently was useless to 70% of the guilds, and it's more accurate than the WM 1st tier spells except for AEL. Take away two of those advantages - maybe even one - and the spell will be balanced somewhat.
Here's a comparison: Warrior Mages are the masters of Foo magic. No other guild is allowed anything that could even potentially deal with Foo. No one else has any protection for their Foo. Then Warrior Mages get a spell that ignores your armor, ignores half the defense skills that defend against magic, might ignore barrier spells (still havn't heard of any testing on this), and does severe Foo damage against players. Then add in that a player that dies from Foo damage automatically departs on the spot. This spell is first tier, choosable at 1st circle, and effective at 1st circle.
I think we'd get a lot of complaints.
As I said in the Cleric folder, I have no problems with Clerics getting spiritual attack magic, as long as it has reasonable checks and balances. If CHS is going to do this much damage, there needs to be more of a defense against it.
Kalyn
No, I'm concerned that clerics have the ultimate targeted magic spell. It's unblockable, unabsorbable, its damage is based off a stat that until very recently was useless to 70% of the guilds, and it's more accurate than the WM 1st tier spells except for AEL. Take away two of those advantages - maybe even one - and the spell will be balanced somewhat.
Here's a comparison: Warrior Mages are the masters of Foo magic. No other guild is allowed anything that could even potentially deal with Foo. No one else has any protection for their Foo. Then Warrior Mages get a spell that ignores your armor, ignores half the defense skills that defend against magic, might ignore barrier spells (still havn't heard of any testing on this), and does severe Foo damage against players. Then add in that a player that dies from Foo damage automatically departs on the spot. This spell is first tier, choosable at 1st circle, and effective at 1st circle.
I think we'd get a lot of complaints.
As I said in the Cleric folder, I have no problems with Clerics getting spiritual attack magic, as long as it has reasonable checks and balances. If CHS is going to do this much damage, there needs to be more of a defense against it.
Kalyn
I don't understand why you're comparing FS and chill spirit. Do you want advice on it from us because it's a TM spell? They don't have anything in common aside from that.
Please do not turn this into a spell vs spell or guild vs guild issue. You need to talk to your own guild's guru about it because even though it's a TM spell, it's part of spirit combat and really has nothing to do with us.
Please do not turn this into a spell vs spell or guild vs guild issue. You need to talk to your own guild's guru about it because even though it's a TM spell, it's part of spirit combat and really has nothing to do with us.
How 'bout this:
Let's test it out. Have you had it cast on you? With ES up? With AC up?
It's really NOT that dominant, in the same way you feel FS is not that dangerous. I understand you feel threatened by it as the TM master guild - were WMs to get a non-corporeal attack spell, we'd have our panties in a twist too. But I assure you, given my experience, ChS is good, but not much better than FS or GZ. Frankly, I think GZ is better than ChS in terms of accuracy. I've whiffed a number of times with ChS.
New depart calcs are coming, and soon, everyone will be forced to train Charisma or depart within minutes. Yes, Charisma was pretty meaningless. I trained it anyway.
This is not the fault of the Clerics or the GMs overall. They have always told us to train everything, so when changes come, we can be prepared.
Furthermore, "Foo" does not kill you. If it didn't stun, would this spell seem so bad ass?
-Statis
Let's test it out. Have you had it cast on you? With ES up? With AC up?
It's really NOT that dominant, in the same way you feel FS is not that dangerous. I understand you feel threatened by it as the TM master guild - were WMs to get a non-corporeal attack spell, we'd have our panties in a twist too. But I assure you, given my experience, ChS is good, but not much better than FS or GZ. Frankly, I think GZ is better than ChS in terms of accuracy. I've whiffed a number of times with ChS.
New depart calcs are coming, and soon, everyone will be forced to train Charisma or depart within minutes. Yes, Charisma was pretty meaningless. I trained it anyway.
This is not the fault of the Clerics or the GMs overall. They have always told us to train everything, so when changes come, we can be prepared.
Furthermore, "Foo" does not kill you. If it didn't stun, would this spell seem so bad ass?
-Statis
<<Please do not turn this into a spell vs spell or guild vs guild issue. You need to talk to your own guild's guru about it because even though it's a TM spell, it's part of spirit combat and really has nothing to do with us.>>
I am not. I feel FS is a better spell due to it's immediate physical damage, as opposed to ChS' slow effect. I was asked to bring this debate onto the WM home turf by a WM. I did so.
The only thing I really agree with here is the way ChS ignores armor. But how can armor protect one's spirit?
I am not. I feel FS is a better spell due to it's immediate physical damage, as opposed to ChS' slow effect. I was asked to bring this debate onto the WM home turf by a WM. I did so.
The only thing I really agree with here is the way ChS ignores armor. But how can armor protect one's spirit?
<<No, I'm concerned that clerics have the ultimate targeted magic spell. It's unblockable, unabsorbable, its damage is based off a stat that until very recently was useless to 70% of the guilds, and it's more accurate than the WM 1st tier spells except for AEL. Take away two of those advantages - maybe even one - and the spell will be balanced somewhat.
Solution., TRAIN charisma. Listen its not a fair spell. I did some testing with it. And it lowered my spirit. But thats all it did. I aint worried about this spell. The only people to really worry about this spell are people considerably lower circle than the cleric casting. But the same can not be said about FS. FS, can kill someone 50 circles under you with ease that ChS will do. But at the same time FS can kick the crap out of a empath, thats the same circle we'll say 70th. Empath is unlikely to have 300 evasion to block 300 in TM with FS. ChS is circle based as far as I am concerned , due to the dependancy of charisma.
The fact it will teach great TM, works on the mundane creatures, and probably teaches fairly good PM is what makes it a great spell. Its the cleric equivalent to FS as a starter skill that will teach 3 magic (4 if you count cambrinth).
<<Here's a comparison: Warrior Mages are the masters of Foo magic. No other guild is allowed anything that could even potentially deal with Foo. No one else has any protection for their Foo. Then Warrior Mages get a spell that ignores your armor, ignores half the defense skills that defend against magic, might ignore barrier spells (still havn't heard of any testing on this), and does severe Foo damage against players. Then add in that a player that dies from Foo damage automatically departs on the spot. This spell is first tier, choosable at 1st circle, and effective at 1st circle.
yes, as written above that for the insta death to happen you have to have substantially more skills and stats, which is equivalent to circles. If your worried about your 5 th circle war mage, then be worried. But I doubt you have much to worry , since it would take a level 30+ cleric or more to overwhelm the 5th circle war mage. You can sleep with both eyes closed tonight.
<<As I said in the Cleric folder, I have no problems with Clerics getting spiritual attack magic, as long as it has reasonable checks and balances. If CHS is going to do this much damage, there needs to be more of a defense against it.
it does has reasonable checks and balances. People trained from the past do not have thier own balance. And will suffer for that imbalance.
Clyn
Solution., TRAIN charisma. Listen its not a fair spell. I did some testing with it. And it lowered my spirit. But thats all it did. I aint worried about this spell. The only people to really worry about this spell are people considerably lower circle than the cleric casting. But the same can not be said about FS. FS, can kill someone 50 circles under you with ease that ChS will do. But at the same time FS can kick the crap out of a empath, thats the same circle we'll say 70th. Empath is unlikely to have 300 evasion to block 300 in TM with FS. ChS is circle based as far as I am concerned , due to the dependancy of charisma.
The fact it will teach great TM, works on the mundane creatures, and probably teaches fairly good PM is what makes it a great spell. Its the cleric equivalent to FS as a starter skill that will teach 3 magic (4 if you count cambrinth).
<<Here's a comparison: Warrior Mages are the masters of Foo magic. No other guild is allowed anything that could even potentially deal with Foo. No one else has any protection for their Foo. Then Warrior Mages get a spell that ignores your armor, ignores half the defense skills that defend against magic, might ignore barrier spells (still havn't heard of any testing on this), and does severe Foo damage against players. Then add in that a player that dies from Foo damage automatically departs on the spot. This spell is first tier, choosable at 1st circle, and effective at 1st circle.
yes, as written above that for the insta death to happen you have to have substantially more skills and stats, which is equivalent to circles. If your worried about your 5 th circle war mage, then be worried. But I doubt you have much to worry , since it would take a level 30+ cleric or more to overwhelm the 5th circle war mage. You can sleep with both eyes closed tonight.
<<As I said in the Cleric folder, I have no problems with Clerics getting spiritual attack magic, as long as it has reasonable checks and balances. If CHS is going to do this much damage, there needs to be more of a defense against it.
it does has reasonable checks and balances. People trained from the past do not have thier own balance. And will suffer for that imbalance.
Clyn
>Frankly, I think GZ is better than ChS in terms of accuracy.
Duh. GZ is the most accurate TM spell in the game, unless AEL beats it by a little.
>Furthermore, "Foo" does not kill you. If it didn't stun, would this spell seem so bad ass?
No, lack of Foo kills you. And forces you to autodepart. And no, I don't care about the stunning with the spell. Stunning is a nonissue. I don't see why it stuns since stunning is an aspect of physical damage and the spell does none, but it's a nonissue.
Kalyn
Duh. GZ is the most accurate TM spell in the game, unless AEL beats it by a little.
>Furthermore, "Foo" does not kill you. If it didn't stun, would this spell seem so bad ass?
No, lack of Foo kills you. And forces you to autodepart. And no, I don't care about the stunning with the spell. Stunning is a nonissue. I don't see why it stuns since stunning is an aspect of physical damage and the spell does none, but it's a nonissue.
Kalyn
<<Duh. GZ is the most accurate TM spell in the game, unless AEL beats it by a little.>>
Wasn't your concern the fact that we have a more accurate first-tier TM? GZ rules at first, FS slowly takes the lead as you grow, depending on the critter's resistance level, of course. GZ stuns, hits twice in one cast, kills, AND teaches well. ChS stuns and teaches well. FS hits twice and then some later on, and I've found that triple hit teaches me well, particuarlly on a solid connect. Maybe I'm just used to doing it the hard way with HE?
<<No, lack of Foo kills you. And forces you to autodepart. And no, I don't care about the stunning with the spell. Stunning is a nonissue. I don't see why it stuns since stunning is an aspect of physical damage and the spell does none, but it's a nonissue.>>
Still, as I've said, your lack of "Foo" will NOT kill you before you have a chance to kill me. And you should have been training it.
-Statis
Wasn't your concern the fact that we have a more accurate first-tier TM? GZ rules at first, FS slowly takes the lead as you grow, depending on the critter's resistance level, of course. GZ stuns, hits twice in one cast, kills, AND teaches well. ChS stuns and teaches well. FS hits twice and then some later on, and I've found that triple hit teaches me well, particuarlly on a solid connect. Maybe I'm just used to doing it the hard way with HE?
<<No, lack of Foo kills you. And forces you to autodepart. And no, I don't care about the stunning with the spell. Stunning is a nonissue. I don't see why it stuns since stunning is an aspect of physical damage and the spell does none, but it's a nonissue.>>
Still, as I've said, your lack of "Foo" will NOT kill you before you have a chance to kill me. And you should have been training it.
-Statis
> As I said in the Cleric folder, I have no problems with Clerics getting spiritual attack magic, as long as it has reasonable checks and balances. If CHS is going to do this much damage, there needs to be more of a defense against it.
... what kind of physical armor/shield/parry move is supposed to protect against a spirit attack, exactly? I'm confused.
As for the spell doing 'this much damage', like it is excessive... in my tests of ChS, it takes at least a prep of 20 to do any damage to a PC (usually a minor stun and taking spirit health from full to merely 'strong'). It doesn't even do that much damage to a gargoyle (consist preps of ChS 25 took the gargoyles spirit to slightly battered)
So would you like to compare? A prep of FS 20 would do what?
This is treading close to guild vs guild as it is. Chill spirit is not overpowered for the amount of damage it does per mana pumped into it. It certainly isn't anywhere near being on par with Fire Shard, Aether Lance or other first tier TM spells regarding mana expended vs damage caused to target.
And as for '70% of the realms not having trained charisma', well guess they have a reason to now. Like increased spirit health pool, longer time to auto-depart under new death mechanics, increases to teaching ability, selling things for better money, etc weren't reason enough?
Heh
... what kind of physical armor/shield/parry move is supposed to protect against a spirit attack, exactly? I'm confused.
As for the spell doing 'this much damage', like it is excessive... in my tests of ChS, it takes at least a prep of 20 to do any damage to a PC (usually a minor stun and taking spirit health from full to merely 'strong'). It doesn't even do that much damage to a gargoyle (consist preps of ChS 25 took the gargoyles spirit to slightly battered)
So would you like to compare? A prep of FS 20 would do what?
This is treading close to guild vs guild as it is. Chill spirit is not overpowered for the amount of damage it does per mana pumped into it. It certainly isn't anywhere near being on par with Fire Shard, Aether Lance or other first tier TM spells regarding mana expended vs damage caused to target.
And as for '70% of the realms not having trained charisma', well guess they have a reason to now. Like increased spirit health pool, longer time to auto-depart under new death mechanics, increases to teaching ability, selling things for better money, etc weren't reason enough?
Heh
<<This is treading close to guild vs guild as it is. Chill spirit is not overpowered for the amount of damage it does per mana pumped into it. It certainly isn't anywhere near being on par with Fire Shard, Aether Lance or other first tier TM spells regarding mana expended vs damage caused to target.>>
How do you know? In the one day that CS has been out, have you done an equitable, side-by-side comparison of the spells?
My take on CS is this. A lot of people are going to cry about it because it does something no other TM spell has done to date, cause spirit damage; with that said, most of the TM spells released under the new preview were downtweaked to a certain extent. What I KNOW for sure is that the GMs will monitor the situation, and make tweaks as needed.
You all should relax, give it some time, then take some real data before you bitch/make comparison to other spells.
-P
How do you know? In the one day that CS has been out, have you done an equitable, side-by-side comparison of the spells?
My take on CS is this. A lot of people are going to cry about it because it does something no other TM spell has done to date, cause spirit damage; with that said, most of the TM spells released under the new preview were downtweaked to a certain extent. What I KNOW for sure is that the GMs will monitor the situation, and make tweaks as needed.
You all should relax, give it some time, then take some real data before you bitch/make comparison to other spells.
-P
What I KNOW for sure is that the GMs will monitor the situation, and make
tweaks as needed.
You all should relax, give it some time, then take some real data before you
bitch/make comparison to other spells.
Smartest post I have seen on the subject so far.
Really, chill folks. As a cleric with about 150 in TM, I wouldn't even consider taking on a warmie with equal TM with it being FS vs Chill Spirit only. My guess is that in the end Chill spirit will be a useful spell- probably one of the premier first tier spells because it is probably extremely well written(don't you love the messaging!)- but far less deadly than warmie first tier targetted spells- but will be more useful in other ways rather than just pure killing power.
Flavius
tweaks as needed.
You all should relax, give it some time, then take some real data before you
bitch/make comparison to other spells.
Smartest post I have seen on the subject so far.
Really, chill folks. As a cleric with about 150 in TM, I wouldn't even consider taking on a warmie with equal TM with it being FS vs Chill Spirit only. My guess is that in the end Chill spirit will be a useful spell- probably one of the premier first tier spells because it is probably extremely well written(don't you love the messaging!)- but far less deadly than warmie first tier targetted spells- but will be more useful in other ways rather than just pure killing power.
Flavius
