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Another post got me thinking, and since I don't know Jack about Clerics, i figured I'd ask.
Is Ressurection a spell or an Ability or a spell like ability?
If it is a "Spell" or a "Spell like Ability" then will BMR effect it or does a Barb bein' dead cause BMR to go kaput?
Hark
The old form of ressurection was a spell that a cleric had to complete a quest for. As of now ressurection does not exist. There is speculation- and mind you, it is speculation- that ressurection might be returned as a commune, or a rather odd spell-commune hybred.
In any case, the dead person is dead and therefor has nothing to resist spells with.
Ryeka
In any case, the dead person is dead and therefor has nothing to resist spells with.
Ryeka
>And that is the great way barbs justify thier pick and choose MR. Cleric spirt offensive spells = no we resist that. Cleric helpful spirit spells = sure it's great cause we have no inner fire.
-Grid
Hmm, somebody missed years of the barbarian mantra.
"Resist all while living, nothing when dead."
Get a grip, Grid, and pull yourself onto the bandwagon. Otherwise, we'll leave you behind.
~Kodiac, a barbarian
-Grid
Hmm, somebody missed years of the barbarian mantra.
"Resist all while living, nothing when dead."
Get a grip, Grid, and pull yourself onto the bandwagon. Otherwise, we'll leave you behind.
~Kodiac, a barbarian
Sorry, Grid, but I am with Kodiac on this one. If BMR was truly "pick and choose", then it wouldn't resist Benediction, Bless, a Prediciton, SoP ... or any number of other beneficial magics. If I remember right, wasn't it even said that BMR will resist Empathic healing? Good news for the Empaths, that means a higher difficulty so wait for those Empaths to start choosing a Barb to follow around for Trans, heh.
They could have come up with a reason as to why a Barbarian's Inner Fire would resist only those magics the barbarian wants to resist, calling it an extension of their will or something like that. But they didn't.
The BMR theory is pat and looks good all in it's own. You want a downside to having BMR? Well, not ever being able to use a spell, a runestone or even a magic device is a pretty hefty downside, especially if you listen to the Thieves ... and they even still get to use certain MD's. A Barb could use them, yes ... but at a cost, since having those magic ranks would affect their BMR.
The only loophole I see is using an MD while in SLEEP mode so no ranks are gained. But even then ... with 0 MD, just how effective is their use going to be?
~~~Krin
They could have come up with a reason as to why a Barbarian's Inner Fire would resist only those magics the barbarian wants to resist, calling it an extension of their will or something like that. But they didn't.
The BMR theory is pat and looks good all in it's own. You want a downside to having BMR? Well, not ever being able to use a spell, a runestone or even a magic device is a pretty hefty downside, especially if you listen to the Thieves ... and they even still get to use certain MD's. A Barb could use them, yes ... but at a cost, since having those magic ranks would affect their BMR.
The only loophole I see is using an MD while in SLEEP mode so no ranks are gained. But even then ... with 0 MD, just how effective is their use going to be?
~~~Krin
Krin,
Barbarian Magic Resistance has logic to it. The logic however carefully ensures that Barbarians have access to two of the most powerful abilities in the game- cleric help the dead spells(this is a group) and moongate. The logic does work however, and I think is a fairly good compromise.
(by the way, I haven't seen anything indicating that Barbarians resist predictions, as they aren't by definition magic(i.e. no mana used)Did you see something differant?)
Flavius
Barbarian Magic Resistance has logic to it. The logic however carefully ensures that Barbarians have access to two of the most powerful abilities in the game- cleric help the dead spells(this is a group) and moongate. The logic does work however, and I think is a fairly good compromise.
(by the way, I haven't seen anything indicating that Barbarians resist predictions, as they aren't by definition magic(i.e. no mana used)Did you see something differant?)
Flavius
Gotta say, although I understand totally the logic behind why spells work on barbs while dead, hey they are dead, no inner fire, no resistance, etc...
I think it WAS a little too easy to overcome their BMR on all those helpful spells while overcoming their resistance when casting offensive spells at them was much much more difficult.
I personally think while alive there is little reason a helpful spell would work on them at all since they hate magic and resist magic, specially if they are unaffected by loads of the harmful spells.
-Paleth
I think it WAS a little too easy to overcome their BMR on all those helpful spells while overcoming their resistance when casting offensive spells at them was much much more difficult.
I personally think while alive there is little reason a helpful spell would work on them at all since they hate magic and resist magic, specially if they are unaffected by loads of the harmful spells.
-Paleth
Agree completely. Barbs should be much more resistant to beneficial spells than to offensive ones, only because, like Damissak said way back when, beneficial spells don't expect resistance and don't accomidate for it. However, not all barbarians hate magic. They might just not have any aptitude for using it. Not nessicarily hate it.
>>Flavius>>by the way, I haven't seen anything indicating that Barbarians resist predictions, as they aren't by definition magic(i.e. no mana used)Did you see something differant?
I haven't heard specifically that Barbarians resist a prediction, but they should. Mana or not, the ability is misnamed. A MM who does this isn't actually predicting so much as causing a twist to fate.
They aren't predicting the future, they are altering it. If it were an actual prediction, you would have the ability adjustment even if they didn't predict it, right?
~~~Krin
I haven't heard specifically that Barbarians resist a prediction, but they should. Mana or not, the ability is misnamed. A MM who does this isn't actually predicting so much as causing a twist to fate.
They aren't predicting the future, they are altering it. If it were an actual prediction, you would have the ability adjustment even if they didn't predict it, right?
~~~Krin
>I haven't heard specifically that Barbarians resist a prediction, but they should. Mana or not, the ability is misnamed. A MM who does this isn't actually predicting so much as causing a twist to fate.
BMR is based solely on the manipulation of mana. If mana is not manipulated, BMR will not work against it. Period. Predictions don't use mana, thus predictions cannot be resisted.
Kalyn
BMR is based solely on the manipulation of mana. If mana is not manipulated, BMR will not work against it. Period. Predictions don't use mana, thus predictions cannot be resisted.
Kalyn
>>However, not all barbarians hate magic. They might just not have any aptitude for using it. Not nessicarily hate it.
I would suspect that will be past tense, since the IF hit when BMR is overwhelmed will definitely not endear either general area effect spells, or spells targeted on the Barb in one way or another, to Barbs, since it will affect their ability to Dance.
So, BMR is a good reason to make sure that Barbs are not in Courage groups, both because they have a chance of cutting down on the effect of the Courage for everyone, but also because the spell cast has the chance to lower their IF for little relative return.
So Barbs who hunt with Magic Users, and vice versa, will need to rethink their hunting techniques, especially if the Mage likes to throw around area effect spells.
Kyn
I would suspect that will be past tense, since the IF hit when BMR is overwhelmed will definitely not endear either general area effect spells, or spells targeted on the Barb in one way or another, to Barbs, since it will affect their ability to Dance.
So, BMR is a good reason to make sure that Barbs are not in Courage groups, both because they have a chance of cutting down on the effect of the Courage for everyone, but also because the spell cast has the chance to lower their IF for little relative return.
So Barbs who hunt with Magic Users, and vice versa, will need to rethink their hunting techniques, especially if the Mage likes to throw around area effect spells.
Kyn
<<BMR is based solely on the manipulation of mana. If mana is not manipulated, BMR will not work against it. Period. Predictions don't use mana, thus predictions cannot be resisted.
Then there's no reason why they should resist empaths transferring their wounds, either, as someone else suggested they would.
Then there's no reason why they should resist empaths transferring their wounds, either, as someone else suggested they would.
I don't claim to understand transference- but I do believe empaths can learn magic from it, even though no mana is used. So, the claim is still there as to it being magic. Does a moonie learn any magic from doing a prediction- if so, then I would absolutely agree should fall under it.
Of course, I happen to think that Roars and Khri's are essentially magic also. Communes too...but they 'aren't' according to DR.
Of course, I happen to think that Roars and Khri's are essentially magic also. Communes too...but they 'aren't' according to DR.
>>They aren't predicting the future, they are altering it. If it were an actual prediction, you would have the ability adjustment even if they didn't predict it, right?
Actually I think it would be cool if there were random bonuses and penalties all the time and prediction just identified them.
~Daergoth
Actually I think it would be cool if there were random bonuses and penalties all the time and prediction just identified them.
~Daergoth
Of course, I happen to think that Roars and Khri's are essentially magic also. Communes too...but they 'aren't' according to DR.
Translation:
I disagree with your definition of game reality, although I haven't contributed to the design of your game, or balance, or maintenance, I am a customer and can rename abilities as magic whenever I like. Anything that doesn't exist in real life is magic. No-No, I'll ignore that this is a fantasy game and the physics of the game world are entirely up to you, and say that anything that can't be done in the real world, which has nothing to do with this world, is magical.
P.S. You should get rid of all those other fake races, or at the very least rename them "magic races."
P.P.S. You should put warnings on this game, for small children, about how not all things in the game world will work in real life. My son went outside last night, chanted some ancient greek, and gestured at a fox but couldn't get a Fire shard to appear. All attempts at magic failed until he strapped a lightning rod to a friend in a storm. Even though he had challenged the friend and the friend had accepted his challenge the friend was still struck down, for some reason he did not just drop to 99% vitality loss. Also I'm angry that I didn't find out until I got home from work, apparently my messaging isn't working.
P.P.P.S. Really though, having me play a fantasy game that doesn't match reality perfectly is misleading. I think you guys should just shut the game down.
Translation:
I disagree with your definition of game reality, although I haven't contributed to the design of your game, or balance, or maintenance, I am a customer and can rename abilities as magic whenever I like. Anything that doesn't exist in real life is magic. No-No, I'll ignore that this is a fantasy game and the physics of the game world are entirely up to you, and say that anything that can't be done in the real world, which has nothing to do with this world, is magical.
P.S. You should get rid of all those other fake races, or at the very least rename them "magic races."
P.P.S. You should put warnings on this game, for small children, about how not all things in the game world will work in real life. My son went outside last night, chanted some ancient greek, and gestured at a fox but couldn't get a Fire shard to appear. All attempts at magic failed until he strapped a lightning rod to a friend in a storm. Even though he had challenged the friend and the friend had accepted his challenge the friend was still struck down, for some reason he did not just drop to 99% vitality loss. Also I'm angry that I didn't find out until I got home from work, apparently my messaging isn't working.
P.P.P.S. Really though, having me play a fantasy game that doesn't match reality perfectly is misleading. I think you guys should just shut the game down.
<<Translation:
Wow, that translation was like a page longer than the quote from the other post. it must be like one of those badly dubbed movies where the actors' mouths keep on moving after the voice over has stopped.
In other words...don't you think you're reading a bit much into a simply phrased opinion?
To stay on-topic, I'll return to the discussion of what defines magic...is it mana? spell matrices? casting? or are we just taking our guildleader's word for what it is and isn't? Or is it like pornography...you can't define it, but you know it when you see it?
I think (and this is my opinion) that anything which uses mana is clearly magical. However, I think that many magical processes do not require mana. For example, cantrips are magical, but don't use mana. The paladin glyphs would also fall under this category. Most laypeople wouldn't consider it a stretch to include clerical communes...however, the manner in which these communes are obtained by the cleric makes it clear that they are gifts from the gods themselves.
I don't think (most) khris are magic. It's more about mental and physical discipline. However, the inviso thing sure as heck looks magical, doesn't it? Especially when a thief wavers into, then back out of, view.
The whole system of barbarian dances and roars and resistance is totally unfamiliar to me, and quite frankly, I don't *get it*. That is one guild whose special abilities I have never really understood, so I'll refrain from commenting on them.
Wow, that translation was like a page longer than the quote from the other post. it must be like one of those badly dubbed movies where the actors' mouths keep on moving after the voice over has stopped.
In other words...don't you think you're reading a bit much into a simply phrased opinion?
To stay on-topic, I'll return to the discussion of what defines magic...is it mana? spell matrices? casting? or are we just taking our guildleader's word for what it is and isn't? Or is it like pornography...you can't define it, but you know it when you see it?
I think (and this is my opinion) that anything which uses mana is clearly magical. However, I think that many magical processes do not require mana. For example, cantrips are magical, but don't use mana. The paladin glyphs would also fall under this category. Most laypeople wouldn't consider it a stretch to include clerical communes...however, the manner in which these communes are obtained by the cleric makes it clear that they are gifts from the gods themselves.
I don't think (most) khris are magic. It's more about mental and physical discipline. However, the inviso thing sure as heck looks magical, doesn't it? Especially when a thief wavers into, then back out of, view.
The whole system of barbarian dances and roars and resistance is totally unfamiliar to me, and quite frankly, I don't *get it*. That is one guild whose special abilities I have never really understood, so I'll refrain from commenting on them.
>I don't think (most) khris are magic. It's more about mental and physical discipline. However, the inviso thing sure as heck looks magical, doesn't it? Especially when a thief wavers into, then back out of, view.
Think of it more as a cameleon, unseen due to blending so well to his environment then moving to give himself away before blending back in.
Yes khri are mental, dances are mental, roars are simply that, a loud roar. Someone yell loud enough in your ear you'd be stunned too <g>
I have yet to be 'healed' by an empath or have an empath use magic on me. They are simply touching me and taking my wounds and transferring them over. Could be desribed as magical and could be said not to be, then at no point attempt to put magical affects on you though.
Thats my opinion on them... with the BMR, I honestly think any spell cast AT or ON a barbarian while they are 'alive' reguardless of whether its beneficial or not, should be subject to the same resistance.
Barbs resist magic, they dont know magic or the difference between once spell and another therefor they would resist all spells the same in my opinion.
-Paleth
Think of it more as a cameleon, unseen due to blending so well to his environment then moving to give himself away before blending back in.
Yes khri are mental, dances are mental, roars are simply that, a loud roar. Someone yell loud enough in your ear you'd be stunned too <g>
I have yet to be 'healed' by an empath or have an empath use magic on me. They are simply touching me and taking my wounds and transferring them over. Could be desribed as magical and could be said not to be, then at no point attempt to put magical affects on you though.
Thats my opinion on them... with the BMR, I honestly think any spell cast AT or ON a barbarian while they are 'alive' reguardless of whether its beneficial or not, should be subject to the same resistance.
Barbs resist magic, they dont know magic or the difference between once spell and another therefor they would resist all spells the same in my opinion.
-Paleth
<<Terribly sorry, I guess my attempt to be funny failed horribly, perhaps I should've mentioned in the post that it was a joke?
I got that it was supposed to be a joke. However it, just sounded like a bitter attempt to make someone (who hadn't even said anything that wierd) look bad, and make you look clever. I have to agree with you that it failed.
I got that it was supposed to be a joke. However it, just sounded like a bitter attempt to make someone (who hadn't even said anything that wierd) look bad, and make you look clever. I have to agree with you that it failed.
On the Empaths and BMR sub-sub-thread, just wanted to point out that healing/transference is not magic. It is a learned skill, "taught" by our guildmaster, thus it is a lore. It isn't a spell, it has nothing to do with mana, and has nothing to do with magic. (Yes, even Empaths snorted, but our guild gurus insist it's true and won't change that.)
BMR will never in any way interfere with empathic healing. The only way to resist empathic healing is the AVOID HEAL command, if they ever get around to implementing it. And it wouldn't be barbarian guild specific <g>.
So,... back to the real issues with BMR and magic.
Baboushka
BMR will never in any way interfere with empathic healing. The only way to resist empathic healing is the AVOID HEAL command, if they ever get around to implementing it. And it wouldn't be barbarian guild specific <g>.
So,... back to the real issues with BMR and magic.
Baboushka
>>Baboushka>>On the Empaths and BMR sub-sub-thread, just wanted to point out that healing/transference is not magic.
Then why does it teach PM? True, such a small amount that you only notice it at lower circles ... but it's there. If it were mundane, it shouldn't even teach that trickle.
Otherwise it would be like hiding ... and learning a trickle of lockpicking.
~~~Krin
Then why does it teach PM? True, such a small amount that you only notice it at lower circles ... but it's there. If it were mundane, it shouldn't even teach that trickle.
Otherwise it would be like hiding ... and learning a trickle of lockpicking.
~~~Krin
<<> Then why does it teach PM?
<<It doesn't. Not even a trickle. It teaches... Transference (ta da!).
Actually, it does. It's just not noticeable after you gain a certain level of PM skill. Perhaps it didn't always teach PM...but it does teach it now (along with perception, and of course, Trans).
<<It doesn't. Not even a trickle. It teaches... Transference (ta da!).
Actually, it does. It's just not noticeable after you gain a certain level of PM skill. Perhaps it didn't always teach PM...but it does teach it now (along with perception, and of course, Trans).
>>Baboushka>>It doesn't. Not even a trickle. It teaches... Transference (ta da!)
How many plats you wanna lose on that bet? Oh darn, SMITHA77 already leaked it. <snaps his fingers> Next time ...
But, yep, it teaches PM. Even with 76 PM, my Empath still sees it go from clear to learning when he transfers wounds, without having yet cast a single spell.
>>Baboushka>>Remember, empaths could still heal people during the recent Magic Blackout days. They just couldn't cast spells to heal themselves.
I could still focus a runestone even before they were re-released, I just couldn't rub one. Snake charms and winged boots still moved. The list goes on. All we lost were spells and items which use them directly ... not all of magic, sorry. Your analogy doesn't fit.
~~~Krin
How many plats you wanna lose on that bet? Oh darn, SMITHA77 already leaked it. <snaps his fingers> Next time ...
But, yep, it teaches PM. Even with 76 PM, my Empath still sees it go from clear to learning when he transfers wounds, without having yet cast a single spell.
>>Baboushka>>Remember, empaths could still heal people during the recent Magic Blackout days. They just couldn't cast spells to heal themselves.
I could still focus a runestone even before they were re-released, I just couldn't rub one. Snake charms and winged boots still moved. The list goes on. All we lost were spells and items which use them directly ... not all of magic, sorry. Your analogy doesn't fit.
~~~Krin
Oh come on, there are a ton of skills in DR, do it and it sets another skill that has no relevance to learning. Hell, go type parry when its clear and it goes to learning.
If it teaches you 0.1% then really who cares?
>I could still focus a runestone even before they were re-released, I just couldn't rub one.
Krin I dont agree... focusing on something doesnt mean its still working. I can turn the volume up and down on a broken radio. Doesnt mean its actually working ;p
Really asmuch as we think something is or isnt magic. Its not our place to decide that, its the game designers. And they have said the actual act of transferring wounds is NOT magical. Its an ability, like barb dances and roars and like traders speculate and such.
But as usual, its all beside the point. I think the point of this thread was addressed and discussed and maybe im wrong but I think it was pretty much agreed upon that...
A Barbarian's resistance comes from inner fire, when alive his resistance affects all spells cast upon him beneficial or not. When dead he has no resistance to any spell because he has no inner fire.
That was the point being debated, lets stick to it? <ducks>
-Paleth
If it teaches you 0.1% then really who cares?
>I could still focus a runestone even before they were re-released, I just couldn't rub one.
Krin I dont agree... focusing on something doesnt mean its still working. I can turn the volume up and down on a broken radio. Doesnt mean its actually working ;p
Really asmuch as we think something is or isnt magic. Its not our place to decide that, its the game designers. And they have said the actual act of transferring wounds is NOT magical. Its an ability, like barb dances and roars and like traders speculate and such.
But as usual, its all beside the point. I think the point of this thread was addressed and discussed and maybe im wrong but I think it was pretty much agreed upon that...
A Barbarian's resistance comes from inner fire, when alive his resistance affects all spells cast upon him beneficial or not. When dead he has no resistance to any spell because he has no inner fire.
That was the point being debated, lets stick to it? <ducks>
-Paleth
>>Paleth>>Krin I dont agree... focusing on something doesnt mean its still working. I can turn the volume up and down on a broken radio. Doesnt mean its actually working ;p
I am fiddling with lines of magic power ... if all of magic were gone, I wouldn't even SEE those lines, let alone be able to amnipulate them.
~~~Krin
I am fiddling with lines of magic power ... if all of magic were gone, I wouldn't even SEE those lines, let alone be able to amnipulate them.
~~~Krin
>>>>Paleth>>Krin I dont agree... focusing on something doesnt mean its still working. I can turn the volume up and down on a broken radio. Doesnt mean its actually working ;p
>>Krin>>I am fiddling with lines of magic power ... if all of magic were gone, I wouldn't even SEE those lines, let alone be able to amnipulate them.
Even while magic was turned off, Bards were able to use their Enchantes, which are powered by Elemental mana, so the mana was still there, and non-prepare magic still worked.
There just isn't a whole bunch of it, but gweths still worked, familiars could still be summoned, etc.
Kyn
>>Krin>>I am fiddling with lines of magic power ... if all of magic were gone, I wouldn't even SEE those lines, let alone be able to amnipulate them.
Even while magic was turned off, Bards were able to use their Enchantes, which are powered by Elemental mana, so the mana was still there, and non-prepare magic still worked.
There just isn't a whole bunch of it, but gweths still worked, familiars could still be summoned, etc.
Kyn
Greetings Paleth.
>I personally think while alive there is little reason a helpful spell would work on them at all since they hate magic and resist magic, specially if they are unaffected by loads of the harmful spells.
Just a small comment here... Unless I'm mistaken, Barbarians aren't supposed to HATE magic. They just don't believe that it's working or existing... hence why they disrupt spell matrices by their very own presence.
This said, don't consider my reply as advocating to resist beneficial spells less than offensive ones. It was just an attempt to avoid the 'All Barbarians hate Mages.' stereotype. smiles
Fafrahd the slinger
>I personally think while alive there is little reason a helpful spell would work on them at all since they hate magic and resist magic, specially if they are unaffected by loads of the harmful spells.
Just a small comment here... Unless I'm mistaken, Barbarians aren't supposed to HATE magic. They just don't believe that it's working or existing... hence why they disrupt spell matrices by their very own presence.
This said, don't consider my reply as advocating to resist beneficial spells less than offensive ones. It was just an attempt to avoid the 'All Barbarians hate Mages.' stereotype. smiles
Fafrahd the slinger
>smell maulem
>Eh, forget to bathe?
Um, yeah.
<grin>
im is sgordonccd. I've changed computers, so I don't have yours anymore.
Been meaning to get with you concerning my excel tdp calculator to get your input. gimme a shout there, or at my play.net addy.
Maulem~Riverhaven boar farmer who smells like boars, go figure <g>
>Eh, forget to bathe?
Um, yeah.
<grin>
im is sgordonccd. I've changed computers, so I don't have yours anymore.
Been meaning to get with you concerning my excel tdp calculator to get your input. gimme a shout there, or at my play.net addy.
Maulem~Riverhaven boar farmer who smells like boars, go figure <g>
