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Ok, just so that my votes are on the boards ...
As a fairly new horse owner IG, and an ex-pro horsetrainer/breeder ...
1) Open up more areas for horses. Snowbeasts north of the gondola, meys, goblin shamans, Haven vipers/serpents, vines/maras, being able to swim the minor rivers, like into young ogres/arbelogs etc. (yup, done this. Swimming a horse is an interesting experience, to say the least) I've pretty much moved to Shard just because it's the only horse friendly area I've found. And boy is it. So much easier to get around there on horseback than on foot.
2) Groups. Not being able to move with someone, mounted or not, is a massive drawback. Horses, I think, should more or less automatically tend to wander off in groups, even if you haven't told them to go with someone else on horseback. They're herd animals. <g> They do tend to all do things together, even when you don't want them to, at least in real life. Although a good horse's walk is faster than a normal human walk, it isn't that much faster. (unless you have a really good horse)
3) Double riding. Have to train both horse and riders.
4) Fix facing!
5) Fix the tack stealing stableboys. It's stupid to get booted and loose a ton of tack for no good reason, just because someone hit the wrong switch. As far as I know, there's no altered tack in the realms, so it shouldn't be that hard to replace the stuff. Alternately, have a set of generic tack that the stupid stableboy gives you back when he's stolen your good equipment.
Now, dreaming ...
Horsemanship skill. Treat it like hindrance, but for horse activities. Pallies can train it down to nothing for combat skills, rangers for non-combat. (Have any of you ever tried leading a horse where it doesn't want to go?) Could even allow the bonuses for mounted combat, where they only start in when horsemanship reaches a certain point. Setting it up like hinderance, though, allows reuse of code. Could also use a horsemanship skill for being able to learn horse skills, rather than the current circle reqs.
Combat bonuses/negatives. Increased ability to hangback/retreat while mounted. Horses fighting while mounted. Increased power on hits, decreased ability to hit. Ability to ride critters into the ground, knocking them down/off balance. (like rams do)
Different abilities for different sized horses and when horse health comes out, tie that in. Ponies being tougher and smarter than horses, large horses going lame constantly, light horses being quicker than heaver ones, wild caught ones better able to get into rough places, domestic breds being less nervy in town, and so on. Also, mules! Especially if you have differences in personality.
Odds and ends ... get the system to recognize my horse, not the other Akhaal, white horse, whatever. Have bonded horses for all guilds, at least to the point where they have a few more verbs, and tend to follow. (could be fun when they follow in places they really don't belong. I can't count the number of times I had my horse follow me into tack rooms, offices, even trying to go into people's houses. Idiot.) Other fun things horses do, like picking up stuff, slobbering on people, scratching on people, etc. (I do have to admit, I'm glad Tydin doesn't slobber green goo all over Vale. I'd fall over laughing.) Or things people do with horses, like lean on them, scratch them all over, doze off with one leg hooked over the pommel of the saddle, (I've spent many hours of my life dozing off on horseback, both myself and the horse 90% asleep in the sun) rub their ears, and so on. Being able to whistle for your horse from a room or three away, particularly as a way to get a horse over a difficult obsticle.
Of course downsides, I think horses shouldn't be anywhere near as safe and cuddly as they are currently in DR. Even the most experienced horseperson does occasionally get stepped on, kicked, bitten, run over, and generally trounced by a horse acting like an idiot. They're big dumb animals and do stupid things, that often end up with the human in question swearing at them, or themselves, depending. This isn't to mention the occasional parting of the ways for no good reason whatsoever. ("What, was that a moth!?! EEEEKKK! It's going to get me!!!" And then next to the hot air baloon firing up "Oh, wow!" with no spook, just a lot of staring. Go figure.) Horses do random, obnoxious things, like spook at nothing, even the best trained of them. They're still horses, not familiars or companions. I wouldn't mind, at all, the occasional check against horsemanship to see if 'stupid' hit the wrong random number and decided to spook at the big, bad, scary rock in the middle of the road, leaving rider on said rock.
I don't think horses should ever be like companions or familiars, where they can act independantly away from their riders. Horses just aren't like that. No dragging the corpse of their person to safety or picking things up and bringing them to their riders. About the closest I've ever seen is a horse staying under their, um, rather potted rider. (that's like a stun, right? <g>) Horses just aren't that bright.
Vale, player of
I agree, excellent posts. Some of those ideas I've been asking for, for a while, and some were ones I should have thought of but didn't.
I could see paladin warhorses being a step above regular horses in many ways. I don't think they are handled very well at the moment; regular fighting horses are a mundane thing, and anyone should be able to use those. A paladin's warhorse should be bonded through a quest by the power of the god the paladin serves, and should be capable of behavior and skills far beyond the mundane, such as dragging their owner, or being brought back to life through the sacrifice of their paladin's favor, or special attack feats.
---Brett
I could see paladin warhorses being a step above regular horses in many ways. I don't think they are handled very well at the moment; regular fighting horses are a mundane thing, and anyone should be able to use those. A paladin's warhorse should be bonded through a quest by the power of the god the paladin serves, and should be capable of behavior and skills far beyond the mundane, such as dragging their owner, or being brought back to life through the sacrifice of their paladin's favor, or special attack feats.
---Brett
>regular fighting horses are a mundane thing, and anyone should be able to use those.
Six of one, really. I think the way mounted combat works is purely backwards in some ways. I think it should be harder than getting a horse to fight on foot, at your side. If nothing else because of the purely physical mechanics. But then I've tried to swing a stick at someone and hit anything other than the horse. It's not easy until you get some practice! <g> Training a horse to fight at your side is way, way easier, particularly if they have any natural tendency toward aggression. But that's just real world. Mounted infantry was always way more common than cavalry, except in the romances.
Of course the advantage all those years of training gives you with mounted combat is astonishing. I use to play around with pushing people from horseback, and played polo, both arena and grass. It's a blast! But I used to completely wipe out people who'd been playing for years because I grew up on horseback, and they didn't. We're not talking about a couple hours of training, but years. I still was no where near as good as my ex who was on a horse still in swaddling clothes. <g> (Her babysitter when she was a toddler was an Andalusian stallion smuggled out of Spain.)
Although quite honestly, this does present a good case for the pallie bond. They're the ones who had that 'on horseback from birth' background.
>A paladin's warhorse should be bonded through a quest by the power of the god the paladin serves,
I'd love to see this as something that would 1) train the paladin in War, as it's set up now in DR, and 2) be magical in nature.
>and should be capable of behavior and skills far beyond the mundane, such as dragging their owner, or being brought back to life through the sacrifice of their paladin's favor, or special attack feats.
I like being able to use Alamhif's Gift for something other than favorless PC's. If nothing else, because it's very rare one of them is favorless for no fault of their own. I've seen cases where it was true, such as a very shy youngster who got caught up in a situation that got out of control. Ok, there I can see using AG. Using it to raise a horse, yes! This would be awesome and very paladinly. Although what would be even better is if it could be hooked in where the owner of the horse gave the favor for their mount. Honestly, as far as I know, clerics don't want horse raising, but Vale, my paladin, would be thrilled to help someone see their horse returned to life.
Horses don't really drag things well on their own though. I can see a specially/magically bonded paladin's warhorse going for help, say to the last safe spot they remember, or have the paladin tell the horse beforehand where to go in case of trouble, or even back to the last stable they'd been kept at.
Thing is I've dealt with very intelligent equines. (I say that because I've known a few mules, who are way smarter than any horse.) I really don't think there should be mounts smarter than mules IG unless they're purely magical, in which case all bets are off. Maybe push it a bit with a fully bonded warhorse, but even still, the smarter they are, often enough, the more trouble they can be as well.
Translation for the non-horsey types in the audience ... part of why we can ride horses is because they're pretty dumb, actually. <g> Smart is not always good in a mount, it just isn't. Riding an extremely smart horse is, um, often festive and exciting, and not in a good way. Smart horses get creative, and do very odd things at often enough the worst times. Dumb horses are often far more reliable and pleasant animals to work with, particularly for those whose lives are centered around anything other than horses, like say barbs or rangers.
Insofar as special attack feats, what I'd like to see is what I've known ... signifigant bonuses to strength, agility, reflexes and burden at the pinnacle of Elanthian horsemanship. Basically where the rider and the horse think as one. There were times when I was younger I was so exhausted I could barely walk but get me onto a horse, and it didn't matter, because I could ride with less effort and thought than move on my own two feet. <g> I'd love to see this bonus, at the top end, in Elanthia.
Vale, player of
Six of one, really. I think the way mounted combat works is purely backwards in some ways. I think it should be harder than getting a horse to fight on foot, at your side. If nothing else because of the purely physical mechanics. But then I've tried to swing a stick at someone and hit anything other than the horse. It's not easy until you get some practice! <g> Training a horse to fight at your side is way, way easier, particularly if they have any natural tendency toward aggression. But that's just real world. Mounted infantry was always way more common than cavalry, except in the romances.
Of course the advantage all those years of training gives you with mounted combat is astonishing. I use to play around with pushing people from horseback, and played polo, both arena and grass. It's a blast! But I used to completely wipe out people who'd been playing for years because I grew up on horseback, and they didn't. We're not talking about a couple hours of training, but years. I still was no where near as good as my ex who was on a horse still in swaddling clothes. <g> (Her babysitter when she was a toddler was an Andalusian stallion smuggled out of Spain.)
Although quite honestly, this does present a good case for the pallie bond. They're the ones who had that 'on horseback from birth' background.
>A paladin's warhorse should be bonded through a quest by the power of the god the paladin serves,
I'd love to see this as something that would 1) train the paladin in War, as it's set up now in DR, and 2) be magical in nature.
>and should be capable of behavior and skills far beyond the mundane, such as dragging their owner, or being brought back to life through the sacrifice of their paladin's favor, or special attack feats.
I like being able to use Alamhif's Gift for something other than favorless PC's. If nothing else, because it's very rare one of them is favorless for no fault of their own. I've seen cases where it was true, such as a very shy youngster who got caught up in a situation that got out of control. Ok, there I can see using AG. Using it to raise a horse, yes! This would be awesome and very paladinly. Although what would be even better is if it could be hooked in where the owner of the horse gave the favor for their mount. Honestly, as far as I know, clerics don't want horse raising, but Vale, my paladin, would be thrilled to help someone see their horse returned to life.
Horses don't really drag things well on their own though. I can see a specially/magically bonded paladin's warhorse going for help, say to the last safe spot they remember, or have the paladin tell the horse beforehand where to go in case of trouble, or even back to the last stable they'd been kept at.
Thing is I've dealt with very intelligent equines. (I say that because I've known a few mules, who are way smarter than any horse.) I really don't think there should be mounts smarter than mules IG unless they're purely magical, in which case all bets are off. Maybe push it a bit with a fully bonded warhorse, but even still, the smarter they are, often enough, the more trouble they can be as well.
Translation for the non-horsey types in the audience ... part of why we can ride horses is because they're pretty dumb, actually. <g> Smart is not always good in a mount, it just isn't. Riding an extremely smart horse is, um, often festive and exciting, and not in a good way. Smart horses get creative, and do very odd things at often enough the worst times. Dumb horses are often far more reliable and pleasant animals to work with, particularly for those whose lives are centered around anything other than horses, like say barbs or rangers.
Insofar as special attack feats, what I'd like to see is what I've known ... signifigant bonuses to strength, agility, reflexes and burden at the pinnacle of Elanthian horsemanship. Basically where the rider and the horse think as one. There were times when I was younger I was so exhausted I could barely walk but get me onto a horse, and it didn't matter, because I could ride with less effort and thought than move on my own two feet. <g> I'd love to see this bonus, at the top end, in Elanthia.
Vale, player of
Yep, working with smart and dumb horses is tricky, on both ends. I had a dumb horse that was a fabulous trail horse because nothing ever frightened him. I could tell him to go through the most dangerous terrain and he'd just trust I was right and do it. This wasn't about a personal bond; he'd do this for any rider. Of course it also meant I'd have to turn him if I didn't want him to run off a cliff. People thought I was exaggerating about this until they rode him for themselves.
Then you get the smart ones that learn how to open gates and steal your hats and hide things...
My thought on the enhanced, godly paladin warhorse bond is that the horse becomes something supernatural. It is intelligent, but also bonded in a way to the paladin that makes it a true partner, not willful and disobedient. Once the quest to bond it was completed, it would no longer be a regular dumb animal but an extension of the Paladin's service to his or her god.
Lots of neat things could come of that.
---Brett
Then you get the smart ones that learn how to open gates and steal your hats and hide things...
My thought on the enhanced, godly paladin warhorse bond is that the horse becomes something supernatural. It is intelligent, but also bonded in a way to the paladin that makes it a true partner, not willful and disobedient. Once the quest to bond it was completed, it would no longer be a regular dumb animal but an extension of the Paladin's service to his or her god.
Lots of neat things could come of that.
---Brett
>Of course it also meant I'd have to turn him if I didn't want him to run off a cliff.
I think the stupidest horse I ever heard of was one who had one thought in his life ... unfortunately it was fear of red buckets because one fell on him. He had to have only white buckets. <sigh> I mean he couldn't be taught leads, he was so stupid. It was amazing he figured out how to eat. Couldn't even really trail ride him because he wasn't smart enough to figure out to pick up his feet to go over things. Dumb, very dumb.
>Then you get the smart ones that learn how to open gates and steal your hats and hide things...
Uh-huh, and stick their noses under girl's skirts and then duck, or steal the rake and try to walk through the stall doorway, or scoot under the top half of a stall door, or pull everything out of the tack locker and throw it around the barn, or ... yup, some horses are way, way too smart. That's some of what I was thinking of ...
"Sir Valentyi, there will be some extra charges to return your horse." Stableboy.
"Why?"
"Well, he unlocked his stall door and got out."
"That's not too bad."
"He unlocked all the other horses'."
"That's definately worse." Vale winces.
"Then he got into the tack room."
Vale cringes, glancing at Tydin.
"After that he walked into the stablemaster's office and helped himself to all the paperwork."
Vale rummages through his pockets, looking pale.
"Of course then he gave us a merry chase through the town ... at night."
Vale wonders if this was all worth it, and if he has enough plats after Tydin's last escapade.
"Only three of us got thugged." The stableboy shrugs. "It'll be 132605 dokoras, all total."
Vale sighs, taking Tydin's reins. "Sometimes, m'dear, it's a wonder you're not glue."
>My thought on the enhanced, godly paladin warhorse bond is that the horse becomes something supernatural. It is intelligent, but also bonded in a way to the paladin that makes it a true partner, not willful and disobedient.
That's what I think would be awesome, as well. Although it could be fun to play one of those horses, as well. <g> Really keep a few pallies on their toes.
Although I don't know if those incredibly intelligent horses are exactly disobedient, so much as just creative and easily bored. Part of how Vale's working on his bonding with Tydin is the same way I did it with my horse, lots and lots and lots of time just sitting on him and never ignorning him. He never, ever leaves Tydin standing around for more than a few minutes, at most. He'll at least sit on him, to keep the contact. It was what would soothe my horse, so I figure it can't hurt. Tydin will fuss, already, if Vale doesn't keep up the contact or sits on him. Not bad for having been with him for less than a week at this point.
The one things I do radically differently is that if Vale isn't going to be able to pay attention to Tydin, he grooms him and stables him. There's never any signifigant time that Tydin is out that they're not interacting in some way. But then this is the way I used to work with my horses. When we were together, I was at least sitting on them, leaning on them, or otherwise keeping them company. Otherwise I would put them up so they could be with their buddies. Don't know if DR horses are anything at all like real horses in that regard, but I figure I'll go on what I know until I know for sure otherwise. Leaving a horse without attention ... no. They're herd animals ... not to mention spectacular at causing damage when ignored. (I've always had intelligent horses. They teach you to be really paranoid. It's amazing how many ways a horse can hurt themselves, you, or both for an instant's innatention. I'm awful around human children because I don't/can't trust them not to do the same kinds of stupid things horses will do when you turn away, even for a split second.)
Speaking of which, can we get a 'lean' verb? Even better, a lean verb that sticks, like lead? I used to spend an incredible amount of time with my arm over my horse's withers, just leaning on them and letting them graze. It would be nice to have some kind of contact verb other than being on them. Or a 'graze' verb? That would be awesome. Take the horse out on a nice long lead and let them graze to their heart's content. Vale could watch over Tydin for hours in jackals that way, shooting the pests as they come in so Tydin can graze in peace.
Vale, player of
I think the stupidest horse I ever heard of was one who had one thought in his life ... unfortunately it was fear of red buckets because one fell on him. He had to have only white buckets. <sigh> I mean he couldn't be taught leads, he was so stupid. It was amazing he figured out how to eat. Couldn't even really trail ride him because he wasn't smart enough to figure out to pick up his feet to go over things. Dumb, very dumb.
>Then you get the smart ones that learn how to open gates and steal your hats and hide things...
Uh-huh, and stick their noses under girl's skirts and then duck, or steal the rake and try to walk through the stall doorway, or scoot under the top half of a stall door, or pull everything out of the tack locker and throw it around the barn, or ... yup, some horses are way, way too smart. That's some of what I was thinking of ...
"Sir Valentyi, there will be some extra charges to return your horse." Stableboy.
"Why?"
"Well, he unlocked his stall door and got out."
"That's not too bad."
"He unlocked all the other horses'."
"That's definately worse." Vale winces.
"Then he got into the tack room."
Vale cringes, glancing at Tydin.
"After that he walked into the stablemaster's office and helped himself to all the paperwork."
Vale rummages through his pockets, looking pale.
"Of course then he gave us a merry chase through the town ... at night."
Vale wonders if this was all worth it, and if he has enough plats after Tydin's last escapade.
"Only three of us got thugged." The stableboy shrugs. "It'll be 132605 dokoras, all total."
Vale sighs, taking Tydin's reins. "Sometimes, m'dear, it's a wonder you're not glue."
>My thought on the enhanced, godly paladin warhorse bond is that the horse becomes something supernatural. It is intelligent, but also bonded in a way to the paladin that makes it a true partner, not willful and disobedient.
That's what I think would be awesome, as well. Although it could be fun to play one of those horses, as well. <g> Really keep a few pallies on their toes.
Although I don't know if those incredibly intelligent horses are exactly disobedient, so much as just creative and easily bored. Part of how Vale's working on his bonding with Tydin is the same way I did it with my horse, lots and lots and lots of time just sitting on him and never ignorning him. He never, ever leaves Tydin standing around for more than a few minutes, at most. He'll at least sit on him, to keep the contact. It was what would soothe my horse, so I figure it can't hurt. Tydin will fuss, already, if Vale doesn't keep up the contact or sits on him. Not bad for having been with him for less than a week at this point.
The one things I do radically differently is that if Vale isn't going to be able to pay attention to Tydin, he grooms him and stables him. There's never any signifigant time that Tydin is out that they're not interacting in some way. But then this is the way I used to work with my horses. When we were together, I was at least sitting on them, leaning on them, or otherwise keeping them company. Otherwise I would put them up so they could be with their buddies. Don't know if DR horses are anything at all like real horses in that regard, but I figure I'll go on what I know until I know for sure otherwise. Leaving a horse without attention ... no. They're herd animals ... not to mention spectacular at causing damage when ignored. (I've always had intelligent horses. They teach you to be really paranoid. It's amazing how many ways a horse can hurt themselves, you, or both for an instant's innatention. I'm awful around human children because I don't/can't trust them not to do the same kinds of stupid things horses will do when you turn away, even for a split second.)
Speaking of which, can we get a 'lean' verb? Even better, a lean verb that sticks, like lead? I used to spend an incredible amount of time with my arm over my horse's withers, just leaning on them and letting them graze. It would be nice to have some kind of contact verb other than being on them. Or a 'graze' verb? That would be awesome. Take the horse out on a nice long lead and let them graze to their heart's content. Vale could watch over Tydin for hours in jackals that way, shooting the pests as they come in so Tydin can graze in peace.
Vale, player of
Other things
Horses should try to steal anything edible you have in your hand. My horses loved shrimp, hamburger and fish.
Standing on a horse's back to reach something...like those ripe plums in the neighbor's yard or using a horse to climb up a tree.
Have a horse pull you up a incline. I do this with my dog too <a great pyrnees> I grab ahold of their neck or hindquarters and they drag me up or down somewhere a bit too steep for me.
A ship's rat scurries into view.
The ship's rat tries to tend its wounds.
Horses should try to steal anything edible you have in your hand. My horses loved shrimp, hamburger and fish.
Standing on a horse's back to reach something...like those ripe plums in the neighbor's yard or using a horse to climb up a tree.
Have a horse pull you up a incline. I do this with my dog too <a great pyrnees> I grab ahold of their neck or hindquarters and they drag me up or down somewhere a bit too steep for me.
A ship's rat scurries into view.
The ship's rat tries to tend its wounds.
>Horses should try to steal anything edible you have in your hand.
Yup, or those piles of goodies people leave on the ground, or ... that would be fun. <g> "Hey, get out of my ale!" My horse loved beer. Most horses adore beer.
>Have a horse pull you up a incline.
Yes! I'd forgotten about this. It's called 'taling' in the endurance world, and is a very useful technique. Use a leadrope from the bridle back, hold onto the horses tail, and let them pull you up very steep inclines. Works like a charm.
Vale, player of
Yup, or those piles of goodies people leave on the ground, or ... that would be fun. <g> "Hey, get out of my ale!" My horse loved beer. Most horses adore beer.
>Have a horse pull you up a incline.
Yes! I'd forgotten about this. It's called 'taling' in the endurance world, and is a very useful technique. Use a leadrope from the bridle back, hold onto the horses tail, and let them pull you up very steep inclines. Works like a charm.
Vale, player of
