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Anyone know how well one must be trained in shield to block Naarg's crossbow attacks? Just trying to get a rough idea as to what I should be training towards. Thanks much.
Daemog
<<No matter what the lvl is to be able to block it, once you start, his cross will magically get better to get past your shield again. amazing how fast they learn.>>
I sincerely hope that is not the case with his defenses and combat abilities. I can see it as being fair that he would get better in his skills with additional practice , as the players in DR are able to do, however, I would like to think that his skills are generally preset to make him a tough opponent, but not so tough that it takes all the fun out of fighting a potentially superior foe and being able to possibly win the fight against him.
Daemog
I sincerely hope that is not the case with his defenses and combat abilities. I can see it as being fair that he would get better in his skills with additional practice , as the players in DR are able to do, however, I would like to think that his skills are generally preset to make him a tough opponent, but not so tough that it takes all the fun out of fighting a potentially superior foe and being able to possibly win the fight against him.
Daemog
base skill wouldn't need to be that high if he was using a one-shot cookie, rekon. what's your evasion?
202 LX and a certain khri landed an extremely heavy hit w/ stun on me recently. 467 evasion and 200 shield. in significant overall hinder. incred balanced i was at time from SuF. no previous wounds.
202 LX and a certain khri landed an extremely heavy hit w/ stun on me recently. 467 evasion and 200 shield. in significant overall hinder. incred balanced i was at time from SuF. no previous wounds.
>202 LX and a certain khri landed an extremely heavy hit w/ stun on me recently. 467 evasion and 200 shield. in significant overall hinder. incred balanced i was at time from SuF. no previous wounds.
Wouldn't that break Global Caps?
-Nitish
"You cut my foot off!"
"I apologize; I meant to cut off your head."
Wouldn't that break Global Caps?
-Nitish
"You cut my foot off!"
"I apologize; I meant to cut off your head."
That doesn't give it the right to break global caps.
I have a defensive spell which is somewhat near to global caps. Put it this way:
Situation 1: Thief A does not use the ability and fires at warrior mage B while warrior mage B has no spell up.
Situation 2: Thief A uses the ability and fires at warrior mage B while warrior mage B has the spell up.
Comparing Situation 2 to situation 1, the hit from #2 will be DRASTICALLY harder - if Thief A can hit the WM in situation 1, it has a good chance of being a kill shot in situation 2.
Or, from my own experience - I was engaged in a conflict with a thief. With SUF, SW, and YS all activated and in shield stance (83% shield, 100% evasion), I was brought down to 4% vitality from full health in one shot. Subsequently, while I was lying down, stunned, the thief _failed to get past my shield_ on the fully aimed follow-up shots. Once I was unstunned, I stood up, walked to the next room to where the thief ran and hid, and smote him, and then recieved emergency healing just in time to avoid bleeding to death.
So, uh, global caps?
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
I have a defensive spell which is somewhat near to global caps. Put it this way:
Situation 1: Thief A does not use the ability and fires at warrior mage B while warrior mage B has no spell up.
Situation 2: Thief A uses the ability and fires at warrior mage B while warrior mage B has the spell up.
Comparing Situation 2 to situation 1, the hit from #2 will be DRASTICALLY harder - if Thief A can hit the WM in situation 1, it has a good chance of being a kill shot in situation 2.
Or, from my own experience - I was engaged in a conflict with a thief. With SUF, SW, and YS all activated and in shield stance (83% shield, 100% evasion), I was brought down to 4% vitality from full health in one shot. Subsequently, while I was lying down, stunned, the thief _failed to get past my shield_ on the fully aimed follow-up shots. Once I was unstunned, I stood up, walked to the next room to where the thief ran and hid, and smote him, and then recieved emergency healing just in time to avoid bleeding to death.
So, uh, global caps?
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
>not allowed to discuss what khri does, but put it this way its an ALL or nothing thing, as in nothing for a few minutes if it dont work.
A whole few minutes? wow.
I understand that Global Caps are per ability, but I fail to see why a single khri/spell/etc can overcome a 265 rank difference (as per one of the previous posts examples). 265 ranks not including the defending person's shield ranks.
-Nitish
"You cut my foot off!"
"I apologize; I meant to cut off your head."
A whole few minutes? wow.
I understand that Global Caps are per ability, but I fail to see why a single khri/spell/etc can overcome a 265 rank difference (as per one of the previous posts examples). 265 ranks not including the defending person's shield ranks.
-Nitish
"You cut my foot off!"
"I apologize; I meant to cut off your head."
hrmm...
>>, but I fail to see why a single khri/spell/etc can overcome a 265 rank difference
Static Discharge? Gar Zeng? If I'm remembering right, ANYTHING at melee with ES up and Casting SD, your goin to get fried? You'd think with 265 evasion agains't someone with say...65 PM you could dodge no? I mean, if we are comparing guilds, I'd say...THATS overpowerful? I don't know if its been changed, but I know you USED to be able to do that...and don't say, No, never, I used to play a warmie full time, both in plat in prime. Plat warmie to nearly 30th circle, and my prime warmie to nearly 70th.
If you put Khri into a % it might fair better...
Say with the one you can shoot from hiding and stay hidden with that cookie...on the list its cookie number 6. Say I have 200 ranks in short bow, you have 265 ranks in evasion, I also have 300 ranks in hiding, you have 250 ranks in perception. Now...I have 50 more ranks in hiding, than you do in perception. Good luck seeing me hiding right? May take you a few searches yes. But your perception has to overcome my hiding. Now, short bow, using cookie number 6 say gives a 20% bonus...so...20% of 200...would be...220? so I'd get 20 more ranks to my short bow. So...I'm only now 45 ranks short in bow. Sniping gives another bonus..let say a base rank of 15 ranks...so I now have 235 ranks in short bow. To your 265 ranks in evasion. But my hiding also helps me snipe you. So with the hiding say base ranks add 10 ranks. All made up numbers...so...245 ranks in short bow for a snipe on someone with 265 ranks in evasion. I think I have a good chance of hitting, and hitting pretty good. All numbers are made up, so no idea. But thats how I"m thinking that it works....but that one cookie is a one hit cookie, once we put it up and use it, Its used...and its got a down time of like..umm....4 minutes and 45 seconds..we can't even eat another cookie at all. So...
Mages can cast spell after spell, after spell...after spell, and have mana left over no biggie. There's a difference between cookies and spells. At a min prep lightning bolt you can cast it how many times back to back to back to back to back to back to back at 50th circle? With enough PM and Harness? and TM? yep...difference. That one cookie, and we're done for. We miss that snipe shot on someone and we're toast..
~Dalkin~
If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.
>>>>Agonar, apparently taking an uncharacteristic trip to the north, strolls by, winks at Marlena, giggles oddly to himself, and continues his journey onward.
>>, but I fail to see why a single khri/spell/etc can overcome a 265 rank difference
Static Discharge? Gar Zeng? If I'm remembering right, ANYTHING at melee with ES up and Casting SD, your goin to get fried? You'd think with 265 evasion agains't someone with say...65 PM you could dodge no? I mean, if we are comparing guilds, I'd say...THATS overpowerful? I don't know if its been changed, but I know you USED to be able to do that...and don't say, No, never, I used to play a warmie full time, both in plat in prime. Plat warmie to nearly 30th circle, and my prime warmie to nearly 70th.
If you put Khri into a % it might fair better...
Say with the one you can shoot from hiding and stay hidden with that cookie...on the list its cookie number 6. Say I have 200 ranks in short bow, you have 265 ranks in evasion, I also have 300 ranks in hiding, you have 250 ranks in perception. Now...I have 50 more ranks in hiding, than you do in perception. Good luck seeing me hiding right? May take you a few searches yes. But your perception has to overcome my hiding. Now, short bow, using cookie number 6 say gives a 20% bonus...so...20% of 200...would be...220? so I'd get 20 more ranks to my short bow. So...I'm only now 45 ranks short in bow. Sniping gives another bonus..let say a base rank of 15 ranks...so I now have 235 ranks in short bow. To your 265 ranks in evasion. But my hiding also helps me snipe you. So with the hiding say base ranks add 10 ranks. All made up numbers...so...245 ranks in short bow for a snipe on someone with 265 ranks in evasion. I think I have a good chance of hitting, and hitting pretty good. All numbers are made up, so no idea. But thats how I"m thinking that it works....but that one cookie is a one hit cookie, once we put it up and use it, Its used...and its got a down time of like..umm....4 minutes and 45 seconds..we can't even eat another cookie at all. So...
Mages can cast spell after spell, after spell...after spell, and have mana left over no biggie. There's a difference between cookies and spells. At a min prep lightning bolt you can cast it how many times back to back to back to back to back to back to back at 50th circle? With enough PM and Harness? and TM? yep...difference. That one cookie, and we're done for. We miss that snipe shot on someone and we're toast..
~Dalkin~
If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.
>>>>Agonar, apparently taking an uncharacteristic trip to the north, strolls by, winks at Marlena, giggles oddly to himself, and continues his journey onward.
>Static Discharge? Gar Zeng? If I'm remembering right, ANYTHING at melee with ES up and Casting SD, your goin to get fried? You'd think with 265 evasion agains't someone with say...65 PM you could dodge no? I mean, if we are comparing guilds, I'd say...THATS overpowerful? I don't know if its been changed, but I know you USED to be able to do that...and don't say, No, never, I used to play a warmie full time, both in plat in prime. Plat warmie to nearly 30th circle, and my prime warmie to nearly 70th.
I never said that the War Mage Guild spells were perfect.
But that's not what this thread is about, is it?
This thread is about how whatever that 'cookie' that Naarg is using does, it doesn't seem to be within the DragonRealms Global Caps.
>Say with the one you can shoot from hiding and stay hidden with that cookie...on the list its cookie number 6. Say I have 200 ranks in short bow, you have 265 ranks in evasion, I also have 300 ranks in hiding, you have 250 ranks in perception. Now...I have 50 more ranks in hiding, than you do in perception. Good luck seeing me hiding right? May take you a few searches yes. But your perception has to overcome my hiding. Now, short bow, using cookie number 6 say gives a 20% bonus...so...20% of 200...would be...220? so I'd get 20 more ranks to my short bow. So...I'm only now 45 ranks short in bow. Sniping gives another bonus..let say a base rank of 15 ranks...so I now have 235 ranks in short bow. To your 265 ranks in evasion. But my hiding also helps me snipe you. So with the hiding say base ranks add 10 ranks. All made up numbers...so...245 ranks in short bow for a snipe on someone with 265 ranks in evasion. I think I have a good chance of hitting, and hitting pretty good. All numbers are made up, so no idea. But thats how I"m thinking that it works....but that one cookie is a one hit cookie, once we put it up and use it, Its used...and its got a down time of like..umm....4 minutes and 45 seconds..we can't even eat another cookie at all. So...
I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. The case I am refering to is someone with 467 Evasion and 200+ Shield being hit by someone with 202 LX skill. That's a 265 Rank Difference based on Evasion vs. LX skills.
>Mages can cast spell after spell, after spell...after spell, and have mana left over no biggie. There's a difference between cookies and spells. At a min prep lightning bolt you can cast it how many times back to back to back to back to back to back to back at 50th circle? With enough PM and Harness? and TM? yep...difference. That one cookie, and we're done for. We miss that snipe shot on someone and we're toast..
I'm sure Lightning Bolt doesn't break Global Caps (well, anymore, heh).
Rather than make this into a Thief vs. Mage thread or a Thieves' Guild vs. Everyone Else Thread... lets make this into a "Everything should fall within the DragonRealms Global Cap or why have a global cap?" thread.
That's all I am after: A Game where everyone has to obey the laws.
If a GM posted saying that the Thief 'Cookies' were inline with Global Caps, I'd be fine with it as long as they verified it before posting.
-Nitish
"You cut my foot off!"
"I apologize; I meant to cut off your head."
I never said that the War Mage Guild spells were perfect.
But that's not what this thread is about, is it?
This thread is about how whatever that 'cookie' that Naarg is using does, it doesn't seem to be within the DragonRealms Global Caps.
>Say with the one you can shoot from hiding and stay hidden with that cookie...on the list its cookie number 6. Say I have 200 ranks in short bow, you have 265 ranks in evasion, I also have 300 ranks in hiding, you have 250 ranks in perception. Now...I have 50 more ranks in hiding, than you do in perception. Good luck seeing me hiding right? May take you a few searches yes. But your perception has to overcome my hiding. Now, short bow, using cookie number 6 say gives a 20% bonus...so...20% of 200...would be...220? so I'd get 20 more ranks to my short bow. So...I'm only now 45 ranks short in bow. Sniping gives another bonus..let say a base rank of 15 ranks...so I now have 235 ranks in short bow. To your 265 ranks in evasion. But my hiding also helps me snipe you. So with the hiding say base ranks add 10 ranks. All made up numbers...so...245 ranks in short bow for a snipe on someone with 265 ranks in evasion. I think I have a good chance of hitting, and hitting pretty good. All numbers are made up, so no idea. But thats how I"m thinking that it works....but that one cookie is a one hit cookie, once we put it up and use it, Its used...and its got a down time of like..umm....4 minutes and 45 seconds..we can't even eat another cookie at all. So...
I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. The case I am refering to is someone with 467 Evasion and 200+ Shield being hit by someone with 202 LX skill. That's a 265 Rank Difference based on Evasion vs. LX skills.
>Mages can cast spell after spell, after spell...after spell, and have mana left over no biggie. There's a difference between cookies and spells. At a min prep lightning bolt you can cast it how many times back to back to back to back to back to back to back at 50th circle? With enough PM and Harness? and TM? yep...difference. That one cookie, and we're done for. We miss that snipe shot on someone and we're toast..
I'm sure Lightning Bolt doesn't break Global Caps (well, anymore, heh).
Rather than make this into a Thief vs. Mage thread or a Thieves' Guild vs. Everyone Else Thread... lets make this into a "Everything should fall within the DragonRealms Global Cap or why have a global cap?" thread.
That's all I am after: A Game where everyone has to obey the laws.
If a GM posted saying that the Thief 'Cookies' were inline with Global Caps, I'd be fine with it as long as they verified it before posting.
-Nitish
"You cut my foot off!"
"I apologize; I meant to cut off your head."
>>Rather than make this into a Thief vs. Mage thread or a Thieves' Guild vs. Everyone Else Thread... lets make this into a "Everything should fall within the DragonRealms Global Cap or why have a global cap?" thread.
Not making it into a thief versus everyone guild vs guild thing. Khri are being re-written by GM's. Thats in the works. I'm not sure whats goin on with them. But as far as I know a few of the Khri were re-done by Damissak because they were so outside by far of the global caps. But they are being rewritten.
~Dalkin~
If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.
>>>>Agonar, apparently taking an uncharacteristic trip to the north, strolls by, winks at Marlena, giggles oddly to himself, and continues his journey onward.
Not making it into a thief versus everyone guild vs guild thing. Khri are being re-written by GM's. Thats in the works. I'm not sure whats goin on with them. But as far as I know a few of the Khri were re-done by Damissak because they were so outside by far of the global caps. But they are being rewritten.
~Dalkin~
If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.
>>>>Agonar, apparently taking an uncharacteristic trip to the north, strolls by, winks at Marlena, giggles oddly to himself, and continues his journey onward.
Gar Zeng is a TM spell. It is dodged with evasion and blocked with shield.
Static Discharge is a Spell vs Stamina spell. Off the top of my head, it uses Strength, Stamina, Discipline, and Charisma and is defended against with mainly Strength and Stamina.
So if you have 300 evasion, but 20 str/stamina, and someone has 65 PM, but 30 str and stamina, they're going to affect you with the spell because your evasion is irrelevant - it's a contested spell, not a TM spell - like halt or mental blast or branch break.
Lightning bolt used to be a contested spell vs agility spell and is now a TM spell.
Neither static discharge, nor gar zeng, nor lightning bolt are affected by the global caps in any way... why? Because the global caps have to do with abilities and spells which boost skills and stats.
This particular khri is one that provides a skill boost and a stat boost. Since you apparently need clarification as to the nature of the global caps, I'll elaborate further. The global caps (notice the plural) consists of two caps - a 'hard' cap and a 'soft' cap. A hard cap is just that - hard. The maximum possible bonus that a single ability can grant to a skill or stat.
The soft cap changes. The soft cap is the maximum possible PERCENTAGE that a single ability or spell can boost a skill or stat. So, hypothetically speaking, if the soft cap is 25%, and you have 100 ranks in climbing, even if a ranger casts a spider climb on you that could boost your climing, oh, 80 ranks, the spell will only boost you 25 ranks, because of the soft cap.
The global caps is supposed to apply to every spell and ability that boost stats or skills equally - also, the caps apply to the TOTAL skills and stats boosted - if a spell or ability boosts multiple skills or stats, the maximum boost that can be provided is the TOTAL boost provided, including all skills and stats.
A number of the khri went over global caps and were rewritten - the old thief bonus went over global caps. The old barbarian berserk went over global caps. All of those things were rewritten. This particular ability still is violating the global caps, but is not a large enough priority to warrant fixing ahead of a total khri rewrite.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Static Discharge is a Spell vs Stamina spell. Off the top of my head, it uses Strength, Stamina, Discipline, and Charisma and is defended against with mainly Strength and Stamina.
So if you have 300 evasion, but 20 str/stamina, and someone has 65 PM, but 30 str and stamina, they're going to affect you with the spell because your evasion is irrelevant - it's a contested spell, not a TM spell - like halt or mental blast or branch break.
Lightning bolt used to be a contested spell vs agility spell and is now a TM spell.
Neither static discharge, nor gar zeng, nor lightning bolt are affected by the global caps in any way... why? Because the global caps have to do with abilities and spells which boost skills and stats.
This particular khri is one that provides a skill boost and a stat boost. Since you apparently need clarification as to the nature of the global caps, I'll elaborate further. The global caps (notice the plural) consists of two caps - a 'hard' cap and a 'soft' cap. A hard cap is just that - hard. The maximum possible bonus that a single ability can grant to a skill or stat.
The soft cap changes. The soft cap is the maximum possible PERCENTAGE that a single ability or spell can boost a skill or stat. So, hypothetically speaking, if the soft cap is 25%, and you have 100 ranks in climbing, even if a ranger casts a spider climb on you that could boost your climing, oh, 80 ranks, the spell will only boost you 25 ranks, because of the soft cap.
The global caps is supposed to apply to every spell and ability that boost stats or skills equally - also, the caps apply to the TOTAL skills and stats boosted - if a spell or ability boosts multiple skills or stats, the maximum boost that can be provided is the TOTAL boost provided, including all skills and stats.
A number of the khri went over global caps and were rewritten - the old thief bonus went over global caps. The old barbarian berserk went over global caps. All of those things were rewritten. This particular ability still is violating the global caps, but is not a large enough priority to warrant fixing ahead of a total khri rewrite.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
>>The global caps is supposed to apply to every spell and ability that boost stats or skills equally
One minor clarification there. The global cap is the max possible, not the max possible for every ability. Each boosting ability has its own hard and soft cap which must fall within the globals. I know I've seen posts from GMs saying certain abilities come very close to the global caps, but I don't recall if they've ever said that any one in particular actually meets the same caps as the global.
Killing you softly with his song,
- Stormsinger Shavay
"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams"
- Arthur O'Shaughnessy
One minor clarification there. The global cap is the max possible, not the max possible for every ability. Each boosting ability has its own hard and soft cap which must fall within the globals. I know I've seen posts from GMs saying certain abilities come very close to the global caps, but I don't recall if they've ever said that any one in particular actually meets the same caps as the global.
Killing you softly with his song,
- Stormsinger Shavay
"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams"
- Arthur O'Shaughnessy
<<Explain please.
-Nitish>>
What's to explain? It doesn't necessarily exceed the global caps.
The global caps dictate the maximum rank or stat bonus (and durations but we won't get into that right now) that a boosting ability can give. That's it. There are a number of ways to overcome a ~300 rank difference without exceeding any caps at all.
<<I'm sure Lightning Bolt doesn't break Global Caps (well, anymore, heh).>>
Lightning bolt was never subject to global caps in the first place. Global caps are for boosting abilities and spells.
Subject to global caps:
Swirling winds
Shadows
Clear vision
etc.
Not subject:
DO
Fireball
Burn
Chain lightning
etc.
<<Rather than make this into a Thief vs. Mage thread or a Thieves' Guild vs. Everyone Else Thread... lets make this into a "Everything should fall within the DragonRealms Global Cap or why have a global cap?" thread.>>
As far as I know, the only ability that (allegedly) doesn't adhere to the global caps is prediction, based on comments Talian made after leaving. I don't know if that is in regard to the flat rank boost, or the combination of rank + duration (both of which can be huge for a prediction, though that rarely is the case).
Ranged weapons have a fairly massive advantage over defenses in this game to begin with, as well. Gonna borrow this from another thread...
>fire mors
< Driving in like an adept combatant, you fire a slender tip arrow at Mors. Mors partially blocks with a tower shield.
The arrow lands a powerful strike that penetrates deeply into the muscles of the chest, lightly stunning him.
The slender tip arrow lodges itself firmly into Mors!
[You're solidly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
That's a fully aimed shot. Here are the stats of the characters involved:
Attacker:
Strength : 20 Reflex : 20
Agility : 27 Charisma : 10
Discipline : 20 Wisdom : 35
Intelligence : 43 Stamina : 19
Long Bow: 195 42.75% clear
Defender:
Strength : 24 Reflex : 34
Agility : 27 Charisma : 16
Discipline : 35 Wisdom : 38
Intelligence : 33 Stamina : 26
Evasion: 282 75.06% clear
Shield Usage: 240 08.93% clear
Light Chain: 273 32.59% clear
No boosting abilities on either side of that.
With that in mind, I'll reiterate: It does not necessarily exceed the global caps.
-Nitish>>
What's to explain? It doesn't necessarily exceed the global caps.
The global caps dictate the maximum rank or stat bonus (and durations but we won't get into that right now) that a boosting ability can give. That's it. There are a number of ways to overcome a ~300 rank difference without exceeding any caps at all.
<<I'm sure Lightning Bolt doesn't break Global Caps (well, anymore, heh).>>
Lightning bolt was never subject to global caps in the first place. Global caps are for boosting abilities and spells.
Subject to global caps:
Swirling winds
Shadows
Clear vision
etc.
Not subject:
DO
Fireball
Burn
Chain lightning
etc.
<<Rather than make this into a Thief vs. Mage thread or a Thieves' Guild vs. Everyone Else Thread... lets make this into a "Everything should fall within the DragonRealms Global Cap or why have a global cap?" thread.>>
As far as I know, the only ability that (allegedly) doesn't adhere to the global caps is prediction, based on comments Talian made after leaving. I don't know if that is in regard to the flat rank boost, or the combination of rank + duration (both of which can be huge for a prediction, though that rarely is the case).
Ranged weapons have a fairly massive advantage over defenses in this game to begin with, as well. Gonna borrow this from another thread...
>fire mors
< Driving in like an adept combatant, you fire a slender tip arrow at Mors. Mors partially blocks with a tower shield.
The arrow lands a powerful strike that penetrates deeply into the muscles of the chest, lightly stunning him.
The slender tip arrow lodges itself firmly into Mors!
[You're solidly balanced and in dominating position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
That's a fully aimed shot. Here are the stats of the characters involved:
Attacker:
Strength : 20 Reflex : 20
Agility : 27 Charisma : 10
Discipline : 20 Wisdom : 35
Intelligence : 43 Stamina : 19
Long Bow: 195 42.75% clear
Defender:
Strength : 24 Reflex : 34
Agility : 27 Charisma : 16
Discipline : 35 Wisdom : 38
Intelligence : 33 Stamina : 26
Evasion: 282 75.06% clear
Shield Usage: 240 08.93% clear
Light Chain: 273 32.59% clear
No boosting abilities on either side of that.
With that in mind, I'll reiterate: It does not necessarily exceed the global caps.
Interestingly enough, I certainly am familiar with accuracy provided by ranged weapons. I also intuitively know why this occurs. It's something that should be fixed with the grand weapons rewrite. For now, however, keep in mind that ranged weapons still have limits and those limits do not involve hitting someone with over twice your longbow in evasion - or even coming close.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
<<Interestingly enough, I certainly am familiar with accuracy provided by ranged weapons. I also intuitively know why this occurs. It's something that should be fixed with the grand weapons rewrite. For now, however, keep in mind that ranged weapons still have limits and those limits do not involve hitting someone with over twice your longbow in evasion - or even coming close.>>
Except in the situation given, upon firing, thanks to his booster the attacker's effective LX was substantially more than half the defender's evasion, because it's been boosted considerably by the ability (for a single shot).
Except in the situation given, upon firing, thanks to his booster the attacker's effective LX was substantially more than half the defender's evasion, because it's been boosted considerably by the ability (for a single shot).
Could do some tests with that khri but the only thief I know who had low enough LX to make it a fair test left. Meanwhile, before he left he was able to peg my 190 evasion and stun me with 43 LX. Oh and I had 6 more reflex than his agility and SOP up.
I'm sittin at 250 evasion if someone with 100 LX and this particular khri (whose name we all know but can't say...) wants to shoot at me, but like I said, this one-shot wonder is probably boosting a number of things to or past the global caps to get these effects. Maybe it's giving the global cap to agility/strength/weapon skill/hiding all for this one shot and that's why it's so crazy, I dunno.
-Teeklin
I'm sittin at 250 evasion if someone with 100 LX and this particular khri (whose name we all know but can't say...) wants to shoot at me, but like I said, this one-shot wonder is probably boosting a number of things to or past the global caps to get these effects. Maybe it's giving the global cap to agility/strength/weapon skill/hiding all for this one shot and that's why it's so crazy, I dunno.
-Teeklin
Correct. The issue is that even with the high degree of accuracy that all bows/xbows have, no single bonus under the global caps should be allowing him to hit. Because he does hit, gets through the shield, and hits hard, the bonus is interacting with the mechanics in a way (which i'm probably not allowed to describe) that sends the effective skill beyond global caps.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
>Maybe it's giving the global cap to agility/strength/weapon skill/hiding all for this one shot and that's why it's so crazy, I dunno.
Maybe.
A Moon Mage can get over the global caps with the Prediction system for a while, but the downside to the predict system is ridiculous. And I never manage to hit the skill I aim at anyway.
Only having a ~5 minute down time for a boost that lets you hit someone with 265 more ranks in evasion skill than in your offense skill is questionable.
-Nitish
"You cut my foot off!"
"I apologize; I meant to cut off your head."
Maybe.
A Moon Mage can get over the global caps with the Prediction system for a while, but the downside to the predict system is ridiculous. And I never manage to hit the skill I aim at anyway.
Only having a ~5 minute down time for a boost that lets you hit someone with 265 more ranks in evasion skill than in your offense skill is questionable.
-Nitish
"You cut my foot off!"
"I apologize; I meant to cut off your head."
<<Correct. The issue is that even with the high degree of accuracy that all bows/xbows have, no single bonus under the global caps should be allowing him to hit. Because he does hit, gets through the shield, and hits hard, the bonus is interacting with the mechanics in a way (which i'm probably not allowed to describe) that sends the effective skill beyond global caps.
>>
Again: Not necessarily.
All the GC dictates is the flat bonus the ability can provide. That's it. As far as you know, that is within global caps, and there's no evidence otherwise, so far.
Take, for example, Teeklin's example:
<<Could do some tests with that khri but the only thief I know who had low enough LX to make it a fair test left. Meanwhile, before he left he was able to peg my 190 evasion and stun me with 43 LX. Oh and I had 6 more reflex than his agility and SOP up.>>
A CJ would give them a flat 100 rank bonus, will have a substantial duration, and 143 lx can most definitely do a nice number on 190 evasion.
No reason to suspect that the khri, lasting only a single shot, is any more "out of bounds" than that.
>>
Again: Not necessarily.
All the GC dictates is the flat bonus the ability can provide. That's it. As far as you know, that is within global caps, and there's no evidence otherwise, so far.
Take, for example, Teeklin's example:
<<Could do some tests with that khri but the only thief I know who had low enough LX to make it a fair test left. Meanwhile, before he left he was able to peg my 190 evasion and stun me with 43 LX. Oh and I had 6 more reflex than his agility and SOP up.>>
A CJ would give them a flat 100 rank bonus, will have a substantial duration, and 143 lx can most definitely do a nice number on 190 evasion.
No reason to suspect that the khri, lasting only a single shot, is any more "out of bounds" than that.
Except you're paying attention only to the hard cap and ignoring the SOFT CAP.
Any ability which obeys the hard cap but ignores the soft cap is still breaking global caps - prediction falls within the hard cap but ignores the soft cap, as to (if I recall) CJs - hense these two 'abilities' ignore the global soft cap, even though they obey the hard cap.
Even assuming that the soft cap is 100% of the skill (which is WAY untrue - my experience puts it at just under 30%), someone with 45 LX could at most be boosted to 90 by an ability which obeys the caps, even if the ability could otherwise boost their skill higher.
There is a hard cap and there is a soft cap.
Do not forget the soft cap.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Any ability which obeys the hard cap but ignores the soft cap is still breaking global caps - prediction falls within the hard cap but ignores the soft cap, as to (if I recall) CJs - hense these two 'abilities' ignore the global soft cap, even though they obey the hard cap.
Even assuming that the soft cap is 100% of the skill (which is WAY untrue - my experience puts it at just under 30%), someone with 45 LX could at most be boosted to 90 by an ability which obeys the caps, even if the ability could otherwise boost their skill higher.
There is a hard cap and there is a soft cap.
Do not forget the soft cap.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
<<Except you're paying attention only to the hard cap and ignoring the SOFT CAP.
Any ability which obeys the hard cap but ignores the soft cap is still breaking global caps - prediction falls within the hard cap but ignores the soft cap, as to (if I recall) CJs - hense these two 'abilities' ignore the global soft cap, even though they obey the hard cap.
Even assuming that the soft cap is 100% of the skill (which is WAY untrue - my experience puts it at just under 30%), someone with 45 LX could at most be boosted to 90 by an ability which obeys the caps, even if the ability could otherwise boost their skill higher.
There is a hard cap and there is a soft cap.
Do not forget the soft cap.
>>
You're correct on CJs - they flat boost. No soft cap to be found. They'll take you from 0 to 100.
Prediction has a 2/7s soft cap - one of the lowest soft caps in the game, fyi.
Swirling winds most definitely doesn't have a 30% soft cap, either. In my experience, for swirling winds, it's fairly close to 100% - and who's to say that's at the global soft cap? You can easily test this for yourself. At this point, if we were to assume you were actually correct about the global soft cap being ~30%, virtually every ability in the game would be considered horribly broken and in dire need of a rewrite.
Consider:
You are Brawling!
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 100% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 5% of your weapon parry skill.
(You have 75 points left to allocate.)
You are Brawling!
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 6% of your weapon parry skill.
You are currently using 100% of your shield block skill.
(You have 74 points left to allocate.)
Base ranks are 107 parry and 11 shield. Between 5% and 6%, the effective parry becomes >11. This places my current, pre-stance parry ranks at ~184, at least and at most, approximately 220. In other words, the boost is somewhere between 77 and 113 ranks, off of a base of 107. For the sake of reference, the threshold for that character with no swirling winds is most definitely 10%-11%, as it should be (10% giving an effective parry of 10.7, which displays under the 11 shield ranks, and 11% giving an effective parry of 11.77, which displays above.
Moving on, the next character has 70 parry and 97 shield ranks.
No boosts:
Quite predictable results:
>
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 72% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 100% of your weapon parry skill.
(You have 8 points left to allocate.)
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 100% of your weapon parry skill.
You are currently using 71% of your shield block skill.
(You have 9 points left to allocate.)
Note that there is, in fact, a small bit of rounding taking place.
Now for SW...
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 100% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 57% of your weapon parry skill.
(You have 23 points left to allocate.)
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 58% of your weapon parry skill.
You are currently using 100% of your shield block skill.
(You have 22 points left to allocate.)
Giving us a boost to parry falling between ~98 and ~100 ranks, despite the fact that my BASE ranks are only 70.
I most assuredly did not forget the soft cap.
Any ability which obeys the hard cap but ignores the soft cap is still breaking global caps - prediction falls within the hard cap but ignores the soft cap, as to (if I recall) CJs - hense these two 'abilities' ignore the global soft cap, even though they obey the hard cap.
Even assuming that the soft cap is 100% of the skill (which is WAY untrue - my experience puts it at just under 30%), someone with 45 LX could at most be boosted to 90 by an ability which obeys the caps, even if the ability could otherwise boost their skill higher.
There is a hard cap and there is a soft cap.
Do not forget the soft cap.
>>
You're correct on CJs - they flat boost. No soft cap to be found. They'll take you from 0 to 100.
Prediction has a 2/7s soft cap - one of the lowest soft caps in the game, fyi.
Swirling winds most definitely doesn't have a 30% soft cap, either. In my experience, for swirling winds, it's fairly close to 100% - and who's to say that's at the global soft cap? You can easily test this for yourself. At this point, if we were to assume you were actually correct about the global soft cap being ~30%, virtually every ability in the game would be considered horribly broken and in dire need of a rewrite.
Consider:
You are Brawling!
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 100% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 5% of your weapon parry skill.
(You have 75 points left to allocate.)
You are Brawling!
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 6% of your weapon parry skill.
You are currently using 100% of your shield block skill.
(You have 74 points left to allocate.)
Base ranks are 107 parry and 11 shield. Between 5% and 6%, the effective parry becomes >11. This places my current, pre-stance parry ranks at ~184, at least and at most, approximately 220. In other words, the boost is somewhere between 77 and 113 ranks, off of a base of 107. For the sake of reference, the threshold for that character with no swirling winds is most definitely 10%-11%, as it should be (10% giving an effective parry of 10.7, which displays under the 11 shield ranks, and 11% giving an effective parry of 11.77, which displays above.
Moving on, the next character has 70 parry and 97 shield ranks.
No boosts:
Quite predictable results:
>
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 72% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 100% of your weapon parry skill.
(You have 8 points left to allocate.)
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 100% of your weapon parry skill.
You are currently using 71% of your shield block skill.
(You have 9 points left to allocate.)
Note that there is, in fact, a small bit of rounding taking place.
Now for SW...
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 100% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 57% of your weapon parry skill.
(You have 23 points left to allocate.)
You are currently using 0% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 58% of your weapon parry skill.
You are currently using 100% of your shield block skill.
(You have 22 points left to allocate.)
Giving us a boost to parry falling between ~98 and ~100 ranks, despite the fact that my BASE ranks are only 70.
I most assuredly did not forget the soft cap.
What if the boost with that khri could be multiple boosts, boosting in multiple areas?
Example would be if something boosted x ranks and y agility points I don't believe it looks to make sure it didn't boost the overall effective skill too high, it just makes sure that each boost alone falls in line. A package of bonuses instead of just one.
Add in how bows interact poorly, in favor of the attacker which is going to change eventually anyway, with higher stats, the combat system goes off of how much OF got through rather than how much was stopped, bonus to hit/penalty to defend against a shot from behind which is the default location for a ranged attack and it's not surprising that a kill shot can occur.
I am --- Navak
Example would be if something boosted x ranks and y agility points I don't believe it looks to make sure it didn't boost the overall effective skill too high, it just makes sure that each boost alone falls in line. A package of bonuses instead of just one.
Add in how bows interact poorly, in favor of the attacker which is going to change eventually anyway, with higher stats, the combat system goes off of how much OF got through rather than how much was stopped, bonus to hit/penalty to defend against a shot from behind which is the default location for a ranged attack and it's not surprising that a kill shot can occur.
I am --- Navak
>>What if the boost with that khri could be multiple boosts, boosting in multiple areas?
Each individual boost would (or should) be less than the boost it could perform to a single skill or stat.
Same reason why the Warrior Mages have been told that adding in a shield bonus to Swirling Winds wouldn't really be a good idea, since it would also mean that the Parry and/or Evasion boost would have to be reduced. :(
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Info Page http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE http://tinyurl.com/9xjyj
Amagaim's What to Hunt Chart
Excel format: http://tinyurl.com/44jlt
HTML format: http://tinyurl.com/6tpls
Each individual boost would (or should) be less than the boost it could perform to a single skill or stat.
Same reason why the Warrior Mages have been told that adding in a shield bonus to Swirling Winds wouldn't really be a good idea, since it would also mean that the Parry and/or Evasion boost would have to be reduced. :(
~Kyn (Kynevon)
Info Page http://kynevon.info
Mac OS X FE http://tinyurl.com/9xjyj
Amagaim's What to Hunt Chart
Excel format: http://tinyurl.com/44jlt
HTML format: http://tinyurl.com/6tpls
<<Each individual boost would (or should) be less than the boost it could perform to a single skill or stat.
Same reason why the Warrior Mages have been told that adding in a shield bonus to Swirling Winds wouldn't really be a good idea, since it would also mean that the Parry and/or Evasion boost would have to be reduced. :(
~Kyn (Kynevon)
>>
Not very relevant.
Even if the individual boosts were less, their sum total could easily be VASTLY more, effectively, than the GC'd boost to either one. You'd be very, very wrong if you assumed that the "cap" for how much, total, can be boosted by one ability is = the cap a single-skill boosting ability can do.
In other words, if the GC hardcap for a single-skill boost is 100 ranks, an ability that boosts 2 skills isn't limited to 50 ranks each. It could easily be, say, 90 ranks each. The actual implementation is not nearly that cut and dry, of course, but you get the idea.
So, while it might only give 80 bow ranks - it may also give 15 agility on top of that, which would ultimately be way more effective than a straight 100 rank bonus to bow.
Need proof? See Dragon Dance.
Additionally: The khri in question is designed to boost your ability to hurt something with a bow by a massive amount for one shot. How it does that isn't really relevant. It isn't like a sustained stat/skill boost. Therefor it DOES NOT MATTER how many skills or abilities it boosts in the process - the entire boost is resolved during the act of firing the bow. If it provides an agility boost, that agility boost is ONLY applied during that one shot. If it does boost, for instance, bow and agility - that agility boost won't help with Origami, for example. It's ONLY applied to the shot. In other words, there is no tit for tat with this ability. It only does ONE thing, regardless of the mechanics through which it does this.
Finally, based on the theory you've put forth: SW already boosts two skills and can be maintained indefinitely. Khri in question boosts one, effectively - we don't really know how it's applied, be it straight ranks, or agility, or a combination of the two, or it could be something else entirely (direct OF bonus, perhaps, but I doubt it).
In other words, based on what you just posted, you could expect the "intensity" of the khri in question to be substantially greater than the "intensity" of the boosts from SW.
Same reason why the Warrior Mages have been told that adding in a shield bonus to Swirling Winds wouldn't really be a good idea, since it would also mean that the Parry and/or Evasion boost would have to be reduced. :(
~Kyn (Kynevon)
>>
Not very relevant.
Even if the individual boosts were less, their sum total could easily be VASTLY more, effectively, than the GC'd boost to either one. You'd be very, very wrong if you assumed that the "cap" for how much, total, can be boosted by one ability is = the cap a single-skill boosting ability can do.
In other words, if the GC hardcap for a single-skill boost is 100 ranks, an ability that boosts 2 skills isn't limited to 50 ranks each. It could easily be, say, 90 ranks each. The actual implementation is not nearly that cut and dry, of course, but you get the idea.
So, while it might only give 80 bow ranks - it may also give 15 agility on top of that, which would ultimately be way more effective than a straight 100 rank bonus to bow.
Need proof? See Dragon Dance.
Additionally: The khri in question is designed to boost your ability to hurt something with a bow by a massive amount for one shot. How it does that isn't really relevant. It isn't like a sustained stat/skill boost. Therefor it DOES NOT MATTER how many skills or abilities it boosts in the process - the entire boost is resolved during the act of firing the bow. If it provides an agility boost, that agility boost is ONLY applied during that one shot. If it does boost, for instance, bow and agility - that agility boost won't help with Origami, for example. It's ONLY applied to the shot. In other words, there is no tit for tat with this ability. It only does ONE thing, regardless of the mechanics through which it does this.
Finally, based on the theory you've put forth: SW already boosts two skills and can be maintained indefinitely. Khri in question boosts one, effectively - we don't really know how it's applied, be it straight ranks, or agility, or a combination of the two, or it could be something else entirely (direct OF bonus, perhaps, but I doubt it).
In other words, based on what you just posted, you could expect the "intensity" of the khri in question to be substantially greater than the "intensity" of the boosts from SW.
Except that dragon dance does NOT boost each individual weapon skill, but instead does a general 'weapon skill' boost - AKA a boost to OF. It's still one boost, plus a boost to evasion, several stats, and a balance enhancer.
Dragon dance, by the way, is another ability which comes very close to the global caps.
Any ability can boost a TOTAL number of ranks/stats. If an ability boosts mulitple skills (such as the old MPP or currently swirling winds), the maximum possible bonus is divided by the number of skills boosted.
This was, in fact, stated when it was asked that a shield boost be added to swirling winds. The reply was that the boost provided to evasion and parry would have to be reduced to accomodate the boost to shield; otherwise the spell would be over the global caps.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
Dragon dance, by the way, is another ability which comes very close to the global caps.
Any ability can boost a TOTAL number of ranks/stats. If an ability boosts mulitple skills (such as the old MPP or currently swirling winds), the maximum possible bonus is divided by the number of skills boosted.
This was, in fact, stated when it was asked that a shield boost be added to swirling winds. The reply was that the boost provided to evasion and parry would have to be reduced to accomodate the boost to shield; otherwise the spell would be over the global caps.
Orpheus: "You've been powering this machine with a forsaken child?"
Venture: "What? It's not like I used the whole thing."
<<
Except that dragon dance does NOT boost each individual weapon skill, but instead does a general 'weapon skill' boost - AKA a boost to OF. It's still one boost, plus a boost to evasion, several stats, and a balance enhancer.
>>
Uh, that's what I was referring to. Weapons, evasion, stats - it boosts a lot of stuff, damn substantially too. Single biggest boost in the game, in terms of overall effectiveness.
<<Any ability can boost a TOTAL number of ranks/stats. If an ability boosts mulitple skills (such as the old MPP or currently swirling winds), the maximum possible bonus is divided by the number of skills boosted.
This was, in fact, stated when it was asked that a shield boost be added to swirling winds. The reply was that the boost provided to evasion and parry would have to be reduced to accomodate the boost to shield; otherwise the spell would be over the global caps.
>>
Self defeating. If SW is so close to the global caps that it can't possibly have anything else added to it without weakening the intensity of the boosts, dragon dance would be VASTLY out of bounds.
Additionally, please explain how, even if that WERE 100% accurate, that would have anything to do with whether or not the ability in question is inside or outside of the global caps?
And, finally, the response you posted was not, in fact, a response to what I said. What I said was:
"In other words, if the GC hardcap for a single-skill boost is 100 ranks, an ability that boosts 2 skills isn't limited to 50 ranks each. "
Read that very carefully. What I said was, the cap for boosting a SINGLE SKILL is NOT EQUAL to the CAP FOR OVERALL BOOSTING.
In other words, for the *SAKE OF EPLANATION ONLY* if we were to pretend that SW is "globally capped" for skill boosts in all fashions, and that the evasion boost is equal to the parry boost...
1. The GC for boosting a single skill is 100 ranks.
2. The GC for total ranks is 200 ranks
Except that dragon dance does NOT boost each individual weapon skill, but instead does a general 'weapon skill' boost - AKA a boost to OF. It's still one boost, plus a boost to evasion, several stats, and a balance enhancer.
>>
Uh, that's what I was referring to. Weapons, evasion, stats - it boosts a lot of stuff, damn substantially too. Single biggest boost in the game, in terms of overall effectiveness.
<<Any ability can boost a TOTAL number of ranks/stats. If an ability boosts mulitple skills (such as the old MPP or currently swirling winds), the maximum possible bonus is divided by the number of skills boosted.
This was, in fact, stated when it was asked that a shield boost be added to swirling winds. The reply was that the boost provided to evasion and parry would have to be reduced to accomodate the boost to shield; otherwise the spell would be over the global caps.
>>
Self defeating. If SW is so close to the global caps that it can't possibly have anything else added to it without weakening the intensity of the boosts, dragon dance would be VASTLY out of bounds.
Additionally, please explain how, even if that WERE 100% accurate, that would have anything to do with whether or not the ability in question is inside or outside of the global caps?
And, finally, the response you posted was not, in fact, a response to what I said. What I said was:
"In other words, if the GC hardcap for a single-skill boost is 100 ranks, an ability that boosts 2 skills isn't limited to 50 ranks each. "
Read that very carefully. What I said was, the cap for boosting a SINGLE SKILL is NOT EQUAL to the CAP FOR OVERALL BOOSTING.
In other words, for the *SAKE OF EPLANATION ONLY* if we were to pretend that SW is "globally capped" for skill boosts in all fashions, and that the evasion boost is equal to the parry boost...
1. The GC for boosting a single skill is 100 ranks.
2. The GC for total ranks is 200 ranks
So ahhh anyway. About Naarg and blocking his attacks. You need ALOT of shield and ALOT of evasion and he'll be tweaked by the next run in with your character.
___
Land of bear and land of eagle. Land that gave us birth and blessing. Land that calls us ever homeward. We will go home across the mountain. Hear our singing, hear longing. We will go home across the mountain.
___
Land of bear and land of eagle. Land that gave us birth and blessing. Land that calls us ever homeward. We will go home across the mountain. Hear our singing, hear longing. We will go home across the mountain.
Not sure if its intended or not, I know with 200 in perception I can see him sneak off in directions...the last time we had our run in with him in plat, I was able to see him sneaking off in different directions. soo...not sure what the cap would be in prime, but in plat, I know I can take two of his bolts with solid hits. So mid 150's evasion, he can hit hard? I know I know..that don't help. But to answer your question, no idea?
::chortles::
~Dalkin~
If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.
>>>>Agonar, apparently taking an uncharacteristic trip to the north, strolls by, winks at Marlena, giggles oddly to himself, and continues his journey onward.
::chortles::
~Dalkin~
If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.
>>>>Agonar, apparently taking an uncharacteristic trip to the north, strolls by, winks at Marlena, giggles oddly to himself, and continues his journey onward.
