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Since I mentioned it in the previous thread, I guess I can talk about this a little more for some early feedback before I dig into building the system.
The basic idea of having a dynamic spawn rate is to allow a hunting area to adapt to the way it's being used. Right now whenever creatures spawn it is based on some static rules. They very from area to area, but most common is a ratio, 3:1, 4:1 etc. and every time spawn happens it will work to restore that ratio.
This leads to the problem where one person can tie up the spawn that was meant for many people, but if we turn the spawn rate up really high it's hard to move into the area since you'll just die if you can't take 4 of them at once out the gate.
Under the new system the idea is that when creatures spawn, the system is slightly more intelligent and it tracks what's going on in the hunting area and adjusts the spawn to reflect that. This leads to three basic scenarios:
Equilibrium - Creatures are spawning and dying at a steady rate. Sounds good, let's keep doing that.
Underpopulation - Creatures aren't dying. This indicates either someone is tying them all up through dancing or the creatures and players are't finding each other. Either way, let's let a few more out than normal.
Overpopulation - Creatures are dying at an amazing rate. This is almost certainly due to someone dramatically underhunting or AoE farming or the like (Not behaviors we want to encourage). Let's crank down the spawn rate to encourage them to move on to something harder.
Keep in mind the adjustments for these factors would be gradual, not just slamming from one extreme to the other every few minutes
Note that this is not going to happen that quickly - It currently is waiting on some mechanics that are outside of my control, then I need to find time to entirely build the system, and then we're going to have to release it in a very controlled fashion.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>Overpopulation - Creatures are dying at an amazing rate. This is almost certainly due to someone dramatically underhunting or AoE farming or the like (Not behaviors we want to encourage). Let's crank down the spawn rate to encourage them to move on to something harder.
Given discussions in at least 1-2 other places about sorcery/scrolls in general, I'd so 'no' to this. Over population is not a factor in-game right now. People killing critters too fast doesn't effect me at all, and there are significant incentives to underhunt given 3.0's new damage mechanics, and the hard-lock requirement to find scrolls to train sorcery.
People are already locking down, engaging in less activity, less risk, etc. to avoid losing scrolls. Any factor that makes them harder to come by is likely to worsen this trend.
I know you said it wouldn't be fast, but on the same foot, DR's treasure system isn't fast either.
Pants.
Given discussions in at least 1-2 other places about sorcery/scrolls in general, I'd so 'no' to this. Over population is not a factor in-game right now. People killing critters too fast doesn't effect me at all, and there are significant incentives to underhunt given 3.0's new damage mechanics, and the hard-lock requirement to find scrolls to train sorcery.
People are already locking down, engaging in less activity, less risk, etc. to avoid losing scrolls. Any factor that makes them harder to come by is likely to worsen this trend.
I know you said it wouldn't be fast, but on the same foot, DR's treasure system isn't fast either.
Pants.
>>Over population is not a factor in-game right now.
I beg to differ when I can watch someone chain gun down a dozen creatures every few seconds because they're parking enough mules in the room to force that much spawn.
>>People killing critters too fast doesn't effect me at all
Oh, but it does. It effects the entire game quite dramatically.
>>the hard-lock requirement to find scrolls to train sorcery.
No one is required to train sorcery.
>>People are already locking down, engaging in less activity, less risk, etc. to avoid losing scrolls.
That is a totally separate problem that can be addressed from many different directions. "Removing the risk from hunting" isn't one of them.
Basically all of the behavior you're discussing is not behavior we want to be encouraging. The treasure system is based on risk, going and hosing down a low level area to get your drops with no risk is a problem.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I beg to differ when I can watch someone chain gun down a dozen creatures every few seconds because they're parking enough mules in the room to force that much spawn.
>>People killing critters too fast doesn't effect me at all
Oh, but it does. It effects the entire game quite dramatically.
>>the hard-lock requirement to find scrolls to train sorcery.
No one is required to train sorcery.
>>People are already locking down, engaging in less activity, less risk, etc. to avoid losing scrolls.
That is a totally separate problem that can be addressed from many different directions. "Removing the risk from hunting" isn't one of them.
Basically all of the behavior you're discussing is not behavior we want to be encouraging. The treasure system is based on risk, going and hosing down a low level area to get your drops with no risk is a problem.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>Overpopulation - Creatures are dying at an amazing rate. This is almost certainly due to someone dramatically underhunting or AoE farming or the like (Not behaviors we want to encourage). Let's crank down the spawn rate to encourage them to move on to something harder.
My concern with this is for people who need to rapidly kill under level critters to obtain bone and skin material for the crafting system.
I use goblin bones for work orders and silver leucro is shaping up to be decent bone armor material. Would suck to have spawn rates drop just because I'm trying to collect work order fodder.
~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss
My concern with this is for people who need to rapidly kill under level critters to obtain bone and skin material for the crafting system.
I use goblin bones for work orders and silver leucro is shaping up to be decent bone armor material. Would suck to have spawn rates drop just because I'm trying to collect work order fodder.
~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss
>>Basically all of the behavior you're discussing is not behavior we want to be encouraging. The treasure system is based on risk, going and hosing down a low level area to get your drops with no risk is a problem.<<
But dropping down to a low level area isn't as rewarding as hunting at level, is it? Isn't the tradeoff there that you're not getting much or any exp?
But dropping down to a low level area isn't as rewarding as hunting at level, is it? Isn't the tradeoff there that you're not getting much or any exp?
>>But dropping down to a low level area isn't as rewarding as hunting at level, is it? Isn't the tradeoff there that you're not getting much or any exp?
If it wasn't rewarding people wouldn't do it.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
If it wasn't rewarding people wouldn't do it.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>If it wasn't rewarding people wouldn't do it.
There are two sets of rewards from hunting - experience and loot. By dropping down to creatures they can kill easily, people who value gaining loot over gaining exp can get more of one at the cost of not getting the other.
A player could never be said to be strictly better off by using that strategy, so that seems like a valid way to play, doesn't it?
There are two sets of rewards from hunting - experience and loot. By dropping down to creatures they can kill easily, people who value gaining loot over gaining exp can get more of one at the cost of not getting the other.
A player could never be said to be strictly better off by using that strategy, so that seems like a valid way to play, doesn't it?
>>There are two sets of rewards from hunting - experience and loot.
Correct. You're getting one of those rewards (loot) with no risk. That's a problem.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Correct. You're getting one of those rewards (loot) with no risk. That's a problem.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>Basically all of the behavior you're discussing is not behavior we want to be encouraging. The treasure system is based on risk, going and hosing down a low level area to get your drops with no risk is a problem.
I have a fundamental disagreement with your philosophy then. Farming has been a stand by in every game since forever. It trades off active progression for increased loot generation, and allows players to prioritize wether they want to actively progress, or increase odds of finding 'good loot' according to what they value, rather than being told 'you will do this this way'. And I have never seen a game cry out 'man these anti farming mechanics are great!' I've also never seen it stop farmers, it just makes it less pleasent for normal users most of the time. I don't even farm in DR, I'm more interested in progress, but there are times I just want to settle in and kill things for loot.
>No one is required to train sorcery
Spurious argument at best. I'm not required to circle either.
Pants.
I have a fundamental disagreement with your philosophy then. Farming has been a stand by in every game since forever. It trades off active progression for increased loot generation, and allows players to prioritize wether they want to actively progress, or increase odds of finding 'good loot' according to what they value, rather than being told 'you will do this this way'. And I have never seen a game cry out 'man these anti farming mechanics are great!' I've also never seen it stop farmers, it just makes it less pleasent for normal users most of the time. I don't even farm in DR, I'm more interested in progress, but there are times I just want to settle in and kill things for loot.
>No one is required to train sorcery
Spurious argument at best. I'm not required to circle either.
Pants.
Really? You've never seen a game take measures to stop farming?
Further you need to realize that our loot curve is NOT the same as most games.
Do you make more money killing a dragon priest assassin than a goblin? Sure. Is it to the same scale that many games have between the level 1 creature and the level 95 creature (or whatever the level cap is these days in your particular game)? No, and those games also have trouble with rampant inflation.
Okay, but say you're not looking for coin. You're looking for scrolls (since those are the hot loot item right now).
Do you need to go find this one specific flavor of goblin that drops the specific scroll you're looking for? No. You just need to kill anything that can drop treasure. A goblin and a dragon priest assassin pull from the same scroll system, they can spit out the same scrolls. Why would you ever hunt anywhere near at level if you're looking for scroll drops when you can hunt goblins forever?
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Further you need to realize that our loot curve is NOT the same as most games.
Do you make more money killing a dragon priest assassin than a goblin? Sure. Is it to the same scale that many games have between the level 1 creature and the level 95 creature (or whatever the level cap is these days in your particular game)? No, and those games also have trouble with rampant inflation.
Okay, but say you're not looking for coin. You're looking for scrolls (since those are the hot loot item right now).
Do you need to go find this one specific flavor of goblin that drops the specific scroll you're looking for? No. You just need to kill anything that can drop treasure. A goblin and a dragon priest assassin pull from the same scroll system, they can spit out the same scrolls. Why would you ever hunt anywhere near at level if you're looking for scroll drops when you can hunt goblins forever?
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>How many bones and or skins do you need to farm? Are we talking about 100s, or are we talking about 10-20?
Because of the wait time with bleaching solutions, I found it easiest to kill all at once, clean, and bleach overnight. In the morning I combined into stacks so I could vault some and keep one stack one me which would last a couple days. One bone gathering trip I probably killed between 100-120 goblins. I would say I train engineering in a light to moderate manner.
Jalika
Because of the wait time with bleaching solutions, I found it easiest to kill all at once, clean, and bleach overnight. In the morning I combined into stacks so I could vault some and keep one stack one me which would last a couple days. One bone gathering trip I probably killed between 100-120 goblins. I would say I train engineering in a light to moderate manner.
Jalika
>>Correct. You're getting one of those rewards (loot) with no risk
While I don't disagree with the intended mechanic overmuch, I do have something to mention about the above statement. Yes, you're getting enhanced loot rewards for little/no risk, however Risk vs Reward is not the only check, Time vs Gain is an equally valid view. In theory, I could take my paladin (not the most efficient farmer by any stretch) and murder gryphons by the absolutely truck load hoping for a scroll or three. Doing such I'd gain...some magic maybe, possibly some off armors, but I doubt it if I'm killing them that fast. Or I could take my happy self to say, Dillos and gain exactly nothing due to lacking skinning skill. Both are reasonable choices where I'm forsaking any gain of power for a potential gain of coin.
I'm all for punishing folks abusing mechanics for elevated gain, but the flip side is folks who train multiples of weapons, especially barbarians as weapon prime, could potentially get penalized for the actions of a handful. I could be completely off base, the mechanic be well suited for the issue at hand, especially combined with boss mobs to keep things in check, but I'd rather air all sides before seeing things hammered in stone.
Samsaren
While I don't disagree with the intended mechanic overmuch, I do have something to mention about the above statement. Yes, you're getting enhanced loot rewards for little/no risk, however Risk vs Reward is not the only check, Time vs Gain is an equally valid view. In theory, I could take my paladin (not the most efficient farmer by any stretch) and murder gryphons by the absolutely truck load hoping for a scroll or three. Doing such I'd gain...some magic maybe, possibly some off armors, but I doubt it if I'm killing them that fast. Or I could take my happy self to say, Dillos and gain exactly nothing due to lacking skinning skill. Both are reasonable choices where I'm forsaking any gain of power for a potential gain of coin.
I'm all for punishing folks abusing mechanics for elevated gain, but the flip side is folks who train multiples of weapons, especially barbarians as weapon prime, could potentially get penalized for the actions of a handful. I could be completely off base, the mechanic be well suited for the issue at hand, especially combined with boss mobs to keep things in check, but I'd rather air all sides before seeing things hammered in stone.
Samsaren
>>Correct. You're getting one of those rewards (loot) with no risk. That's a problem.
Is that the right framing, though? Time is much more of a limitation than risk, IMO.
I can mitigate all of the risk in hunting for experience by using guild abilities and backing up to heal now and then. It's actually much easier to manage that risk in 3.0 than it was in 2.0. How much exp I can gain reduces down to time spent training. Wounds are irrelevant (because I can reliably manage them) unless combat gets a lot more unforgiving than it is now.
Hunting strictly for loot takes just as much time, which is my scarce resource, but gives me no exp. It's still costing me the thing that matters to me.
Is that the right framing, though? Time is much more of a limitation than risk, IMO.
I can mitigate all of the risk in hunting for experience by using guild abilities and backing up to heal now and then. It's actually much easier to manage that risk in 3.0 than it was in 2.0. How much exp I can gain reduces down to time spent training. Wounds are irrelevant (because I can reliably manage them) unless combat gets a lot more unforgiving than it is now.
Hunting strictly for loot takes just as much time, which is my scarce resource, but gives me no exp. It's still costing me the thing that matters to me.
I think this concept goes against/worsens the biggest issue most people have with hunting in DR... a lack of good spawn. If anything, turn everything up to 4 per. I have never had an issue hunting because 4 critters got on me without taking the appropriate measures to be ready to hunt at that level in the first place, from a guild with no defensive and offensive buffs to a guild with them all. If the idea is to systematically decrease farming, I think this will not help since farmers will still rake in plenty coin/treasure in the new scale set in place by dramatically lowered spawn mechanics. Please do not implement this concept, because it will hurt moving skills. Coin generation has already been heftily decreased. I think I rake in 1/20th of what I used to per day (which in the given scale is fine, I suppose). With all respect, stuff like this makes playability worse, not better. I think you are a great GM and mean no insult in any of these words.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
Considering that damage done to you was just tweaked and now you want people hunting where they are gunna pick up more injuries and be entirely reliant on an empath to continue to hunt because you don't want people underhunting to farm ect ect. poses a few problems I can see. 1) people will just change the way there 'mules' operate circumventing your proposed theory anyway. 2) Empaths are NOT available to everyone readily and these are those of us who can't even use em at all. 3) I play a necromancer the state of my ability to heal in even 1/20th the time it takes an empath to heal someone is horrid. So I rely on killing the critters I use to heal quickly to get myself back up and running. Now you wanna penalize spawn for me, this makes my healing time go through the roof. I am OPPOSED strongly to this...
>Overpopulation - Creatures are dying at an amazing rate. This is almost certainly due to someone dramatically underhunting or AoE farming or the like (Not behaviors we want to encourage). Let's crank down the spawn rate to encourage them to move on to something harder.
-The Forsaken Rakash
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Khiol
>Overpopulation - Creatures are dying at an amazing rate. This is almost certainly due to someone dramatically underhunting or AoE farming or the like (Not behaviors we want to encourage). Let's crank down the spawn rate to encourage them to move on to something harder.
-The Forsaken Rakash
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Khiol
There is always that outlier that exposes issues with a system, e.g., farming with 3 mules. I think its better to deal with these players individually rather then change core game play to affecting everyone for those few individual violaters.
With that being said im sure these farmers kill values are so extreme the normal user would not trigger the over hunt mechanic.
Perhaps make a new policy banning mule farming. Its absurd and not healthy in any way.
With that being said im sure these farmers kill values are so extreme the normal user would not trigger the over hunt mechanic.
Perhaps make a new policy banning mule farming. Its absurd and not healthy in any way.
>Really? You've never seen a game take measures to stop farming?
I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear on that; I've seen lots of games take anti farming stances and implementations. But honestly, it's never stopped (or even slowed down) the farmers, it usually just benefits people who are willing to buy coin anyway, because its suddenly become more difficult to generate any money.
>Why would you ever hunt anywhere near at level if you're looking for scroll drops when you can hunt goblins forever?
If my only point is to kill things in order to maximize loot drops, why would I go for anything more difficult than what I could just kill quickly? That's how farming works. My intent is not to learn combat skills, or progress my ability, it is to maximize ability to gain loot.
Pants.
I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear on that; I've seen lots of games take anti farming stances and implementations. But honestly, it's never stopped (or even slowed down) the farmers, it usually just benefits people who are willing to buy coin anyway, because its suddenly become more difficult to generate any money.
>Why would you ever hunt anywhere near at level if you're looking for scroll drops when you can hunt goblins forever?
If my only point is to kill things in order to maximize loot drops, why would I go for anything more difficult than what I could just kill quickly? That's how farming works. My intent is not to learn combat skills, or progress my ability, it is to maximize ability to gain loot.
Pants.
Hey there, here are some of my thoughts and questions.
>>Further you need to realize that our loot curve is NOT the same as most games.
>>Do you make more money killing a dragon priest assassin than a goblin? Sure. Is it to the same scale that many games have >>between the level 1 creature and the level 95 creature (or whatever the level cap is these days in your particular game)? No, >>and those games also have trouble with rampant inflation.
Shouldn't you fix the loot curve first? DR was put on overdrive already, circles 1-100 are so fast now, you should seriously fix how loot is produced at all levels and make a nice even slow progression from level 1 to level 200
Actually please fix the loot curve? it's horrid, once you get to gryphons your rich. bad design for the scale of the game.
>>>>Over population is not a factor in-game right now.
>>I beg to differ when I can watch someone chain gun down a dozen creatures every few seconds because they're parking enough mules in the room to force that much spawn.
I get what you are thinking here, and I sort of agree. So are you targetting when people are killing every few seconds because their mule army is all hunting? I've seen it, we all have. I'm not sure how you would implement this not to screw over normal group hunting though? (if anyone actually truly ever group hunts I dunno?)
A couple to the point questions:
Define underhunting? Is underhunting when they stopped teaching defenses?
If I kill a critter every 20 seconds is that too fast in your Opinion? Some weapons are pretty fast killers, some are slower...
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>>Further you need to realize that our loot curve is NOT the same as most games.
>>Do you make more money killing a dragon priest assassin than a goblin? Sure. Is it to the same scale that many games have >>between the level 1 creature and the level 95 creature (or whatever the level cap is these days in your particular game)? No, >>and those games also have trouble with rampant inflation.
Shouldn't you fix the loot curve first? DR was put on overdrive already, circles 1-100 are so fast now, you should seriously fix how loot is produced at all levels and make a nice even slow progression from level 1 to level 200
Actually please fix the loot curve? it's horrid, once you get to gryphons your rich. bad design for the scale of the game.
>>>>Over population is not a factor in-game right now.
>>I beg to differ when I can watch someone chain gun down a dozen creatures every few seconds because they're parking enough mules in the room to force that much spawn.
I get what you are thinking here, and I sort of agree. So are you targetting when people are killing every few seconds because their mule army is all hunting? I've seen it, we all have. I'm not sure how you would implement this not to screw over normal group hunting though? (if anyone actually truly ever group hunts I dunno?)
A couple to the point questions:
Define underhunting? Is underhunting when they stopped teaching defenses?
If I kill a critter every 20 seconds is that too fast in your Opinion? Some weapons are pretty fast killers, some are slower...
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>Overpopulation - Creatures are dying at an amazing rate. This is almost certainly due to someone dramatically underhunting or AoE farming or the like (Not behaviors we want to encourage). Let's crank down the spawn rate to encourage them to move on to something harder.
So a handful of people under hunting for whatever reason justifies penalizing every other player?
- Erixx
>>This leads to the problem where one person can tie up the spawn that was meant for many people, but if we turn the spawn rate up really high it's hard to move into the area since you'll just die if you can't take 4 of them at once out the gate.
One comment on this. Why aren't hunting areas set up with a slow spawn area and a fast spawn area? I know some are and some aren't. I would of made EVERY hunting area have slow and fast spawn. Sure it would take a long time to go back and change all the areas. 2-3 rooms slow, 4-8 fast or whatever, but it should of been done that way in the first place IMO. It's been suggested quite a few times over the years.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
One comment on this. Why aren't hunting areas set up with a slow spawn area and a fast spawn area? I know some are and some aren't. I would of made EVERY hunting area have slow and fast spawn. Sure it would take a long time to go back and change all the areas. 2-3 rooms slow, 4-8 fast or whatever, but it should of been done that way in the first place IMO. It's been suggested quite a few times over the years.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>How many bones and or skins do you need to farm? Are we talking about 100s, or are we talking about 10-20?
1 set of leathers = 55 yards of leather = about 14 average sized skins. I'm assuming bone armor will be comparable. So in order to have enough for both work orders and player sales we're talking 100s.
>I don't think this problem will exist if they make the # of required kills and cooldown timer reasonable.
Agreed. I specifically brought it up so it could be kept in mind when actually coding the system.
~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss
1 set of leathers = 55 yards of leather = about 14 average sized skins. I'm assuming bone armor will be comparable. So in order to have enough for both work orders and player sales we're talking 100s.
>I don't think this problem will exist if they make the # of required kills and cooldown timer reasonable.
Agreed. I specifically brought it up so it could be kept in mind when actually coding the system.
~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss
Would it be possible to make it so creatures produce zero treasure (but normal skins, bones, and parts) if you learned no weapons or defenses? Exception is boxes. Boxes generate no treasure if you didn't learn Locksmithing.
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer
Firstly - this is something I plan to be very cautious approaching. I'm aware it's going to be a big change.
Secondly - people are making an awful lot of assumptions about where the balance point is going to be, and frankly, they're wrong. Take the following scenario using some, roughly, realistic numbers:
Every 40 seconds the spawn fires. It tries to keep a 3 to 1 ratio. Every time it fires it finds how many players there are, how many creatures there are, and restores this ratio. This is an example of the existing set up.
Under the proposed set up:
Underpopulation - The spawn evaluates the hunting ground and says, "There's 4 people here and every time I fire off there's 4 people and 11-12 creatures." so it slowly cranks the ratio up to 4 to 1.
Equilibrium - The spawn evaluates the hunting ground and says, "There's 4 people here and every time I fire off there's 4 people and 4-8 creatures." so it decides, you know what, that sounds good.
Overpopulation - The spawn evaluates the hunting ground and says, "There's 4 people here and every time I fire off there's 4 people and 0-2 creatures." so it slowly cranks the ratio down to 2 to 1.
Clearly there's some space in-between those zones, but I'm trying to convey the overall idea. Keep in mind I haven't written a line of this code yet, so it's all subject to change.
Any dynamic changes to the spawn are going to be somewhat slow as well. It's not like turning off the faucet, we don't want the spawn rate slamming back and forth between off and 11 just because you happened to kill a few creatures close together or swapped to a lower weapon.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Secondly - people are making an awful lot of assumptions about where the balance point is going to be, and frankly, they're wrong. Take the following scenario using some, roughly, realistic numbers:
Every 40 seconds the spawn fires. It tries to keep a 3 to 1 ratio. Every time it fires it finds how many players there are, how many creatures there are, and restores this ratio. This is an example of the existing set up.
Under the proposed set up:
Underpopulation - The spawn evaluates the hunting ground and says, "There's 4 people here and every time I fire off there's 4 people and 11-12 creatures." so it slowly cranks the ratio up to 4 to 1.
Equilibrium - The spawn evaluates the hunting ground and says, "There's 4 people here and every time I fire off there's 4 people and 4-8 creatures." so it decides, you know what, that sounds good.
Overpopulation - The spawn evaluates the hunting ground and says, "There's 4 people here and every time I fire off there's 4 people and 0-2 creatures." so it slowly cranks the ratio down to 2 to 1.
Clearly there's some space in-between those zones, but I'm trying to convey the overall idea. Keep in mind I haven't written a line of this code yet, so it's all subject to change.
Any dynamic changes to the spawn are going to be somewhat slow as well. It's not like turning off the faucet, we don't want the spawn rate slamming back and forth between off and 11 just because you happened to kill a few creatures close together or swapped to a lower weapon.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
>>If they're killing that quickly, they should move up a level.
I don't get why it is so important to effectively force people to hunt something else. I'd rather resources be focused on finishing guild abilities to completion and cleaning up existing bugs.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
I don't get why it is so important to effectively force people to hunt something else. I'd rather resources be focused on finishing guild abilities to completion and cleaning up existing bugs.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
>>Equilibrium - The spawn evaluates the hunting ground and says, "There's 4 people here and every time I fire off there's 4 people and 4-8 creatures." so it decides, you know what, that sounds good.
Isn't this what we have now in certain hunting areas that cause complaints?
2 people dancing with 4 each = 8, 2 people twiddling their thumbs.
I'm with Squanto, just crank the spawn to 11 and everyone is happy. If you think people are farming too much by underhunting, find a way to make hunting at level better than underhunting.
::cough:: fix the loot generation!!!1111 ::cough::
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Isn't this what we have now in certain hunting areas that cause complaints?
2 people dancing with 4 each = 8, 2 people twiddling their thumbs.
I'm with Squanto, just crank the spawn to 11 and everyone is happy. If you think people are farming too much by underhunting, find a way to make hunting at level better than underhunting.
::cough:: fix the loot generation!!!1111 ::cough::
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Here's the problem. Hunting at level will get you killed. Slight underhunting that still teaches won't. The better solution is if you're underhunting that much the only loot generated is skins.
Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Your body tightens as you draw your arms together in a sinuous, flowing motion, mimicking the form you were trained to adopt for this roar of warning.
Kodius fled to the west in terror!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
When I used to do my big farming thing in Raiders(~9 years ago), they were the top of the game and only the upper 5% of DR could hunt there; now you have ~50% of players past the "OMG TREASURE!" point and the problem has multiplied 10x. I remember them being such a huge jump from other forms of loot (quantity x quality) that they were on their own scale entirely. I could generate over 1000 plat per day there with 3 characters when plat prices were 12-13 cents per. Now, straight-picking has since-then been nerfed, and we're into a whole new DR where the pacing of combat has slowed down TREMENDOUSLY even when underhunting.
I don't think the spawn rate or under-farming is really the issue here, those have both been hit pretty hard from the changes or, in other words: if it previously took 1 hit to kill a Raider and now takes 2-3, that's more than a 50% nerf in "farmability". It's been nerfed enough, and besides that - it scales across the boards, evenly. So it hits the people who don't farm as much as the ones who do.
I think the real issue is the massive spike in loot quality as you move up the chain - the entire chain needs revamping. Loot and skins need to be rewritten and put on the value metric that scales(read: not MULTIPLIES) appropriately with critter-level(risk), and every critter needs to be put on this metric. This "1 silver for a goblin, 1 gold for a celp, 1 plat for an int" crap is for the birds and encourages farming FAR more than the prospect of underhunting.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I don't think the spawn rate or under-farming is really the issue here, those have both been hit pretty hard from the changes or, in other words: if it previously took 1 hit to kill a Raider and now takes 2-3, that's more than a 50% nerf in "farmability". It's been nerfed enough, and besides that - it scales across the boards, evenly. So it hits the people who don't farm as much as the ones who do.
I think the real issue is the massive spike in loot quality as you move up the chain - the entire chain needs revamping. Loot and skins need to be rewritten and put on the value metric that scales(read: not MULTIPLIES) appropriately with critter-level(risk), and every critter needs to be put on this metric. This "1 silver for a goblin, 1 gold for a celp, 1 plat for an int" crap is for the birds and encourages farming FAR more than the prospect of underhunting.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
>> Any dynamic changes to the spawn are going to be somewhat slow as well.
You have to establish a reasonable baseline before you can hope to control the outflow of the farming problem. I can make more money that a level 20 character in Goblins throughout an entire DAY, in ~5 minutes in Intercessors from just dropped gems. This is the MAJOR problem and the metric needs rewritten to SCALE(not MULTIPLY).
Just my 2 cents.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
You have to establish a reasonable baseline before you can hope to control the outflow of the farming problem. I can make more money that a level 20 character in Goblins throughout an entire DAY, in ~5 minutes in Intercessors from just dropped gems. This is the MAJOR problem and the metric needs rewritten to SCALE(not MULTIPLY).
Just my 2 cents.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Actually, I was being a bit too conservative in my assessment.
I could make more money off the coins dropped in Intercessors in 5 minutes than a level 20 character could in an entire day of hunting Goblins.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I could make more money off the coins dropped in Intercessors in 5 minutes than a level 20 character could in an entire day of hunting Goblins.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
>>Gort words on intercessor coins and gems.
Lies! I think I got 10 gems in like 20 minutes the other day and a few gold. I do, however, get a rich abundance of pewter and iron bars... that I don't pick up.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
Lies! I think I got 10 gems in like 20 minutes the other day and a few gold. I do, however, get a rich abundance of pewter and iron bars... that I don't pick up.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
Again, the issue isn't the quantity. Regardless of quantity, market value will scale to IG values. If 1 plat is all of a sudden what 100 was, then 10 plat will go for like 8 bucks, or whatever the going rate is. I think if we focus too much on fake money, we're going to spin wheels. Yeah, there are farmers. Great. They still have to pay for each and every account they own. So, in a way, they are contributing positively to Simu's bottom line. I think the focus should be on playability of the game, not some fake economy linked to a flacid out of game economy based upon it. Seriously? 8 bucks?
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
I really don't care about the loot curve or people farming for scrolls. If the GMs decide a fix is needed, I'll be fine with them, regardless of popularity. I really only care about my ability to train without undue inconvenience, and people dancing endlessly with 4 critters for an hour or longer (sometimes with multiple alts) is a serious issue in that it can completely destroy spawn for the entire hunting ground.
I will be a fan of any solution that would allow people to dance with critters however they like without ruining my weapon experience.
I will be a fan of any solution that would allow people to dance with critters however they like without ruining my weapon experience.
