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With the exception of magical weapons, will enchanting require items that are made with other crafting skills? in other words, should a moonmage plan on training engineering if he wants to be able to enchant without other people's help?
Non-crafted weapons and armor will be treated as follows:
Tier 1-4 : Steel
Tier 5: Kertig
Tier 6+: Tyrium
In other words, they won't be as easily enchanted as items crafted from appropriate materials - but for Kertig and below it should be possible. Going to suck if someone uses a "chance to destroy item on use" Focus to fit something on a Katana though!
NMU enchanting will require Arcana ranks and be less efficient. Don't believe there won't ever be some repercussions for learning too much about it as a Barbarian.
Base items equivalent to steel will be for sale in the Enchanting Hall so you won't NEED another player to make stuff for Work Orders.
I am currently muddled with the alloying process. In forging it is all or none. It is kertig, or it is crap once it becomes an alloy. I would prefer a system such as:
100% Orichalcum Boardsword - Horrible stats, Excellent Enchantability
60% Orichalcum, 40% Kertig Broadsword - Poor stats, High Enchantability
60% Kertig, 40% Orichalcum Broadsword - Average stats, Good Enchantability
70% Kertig, 30% Orichalcum Broadsword - Excellent stats, Terrible Enchantability
There will also be some extremely rare metals that when added in small quantities, provide a boost to the enchantability.
You'd have to experiment to find just how much "space" you need to fit the enchantments you want.
Enchanting as a whole benefits from cross-class interaction a bit more than the other skills. However, it can also be said the other skills benefit from Enchanting as it gives them a new revenue source.
I do have plans for a "solo path" in the system. For example, an Ethereal Furnace can be set to produce to an orb, rod, or ring. Push it with the raw material in your hand, and get an 80-quality finished product out. Not as good as having someone make the orb, rod or ring for you. But it lets you sell reasonably good product solo.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Tier 1-4 : Steel
Tier 5: Kertig
Tier 6+: Tyrium
In other words, they won't be as easily enchanted as items crafted from appropriate materials - but for Kertig and below it should be possible. Going to suck if someone uses a "chance to destroy item on use" Focus to fit something on a Katana though!
NMU enchanting will require Arcana ranks and be less efficient. Don't believe there won't ever be some repercussions for learning too much about it as a Barbarian.
Base items equivalent to steel will be for sale in the Enchanting Hall so you won't NEED another player to make stuff for Work Orders.
I am currently muddled with the alloying process. In forging it is all or none. It is kertig, or it is crap once it becomes an alloy. I would prefer a system such as:
100% Orichalcum Boardsword - Horrible stats, Excellent Enchantability
60% Orichalcum, 40% Kertig Broadsword - Poor stats, High Enchantability
60% Kertig, 40% Orichalcum Broadsword - Average stats, Good Enchantability
70% Kertig, 30% Orichalcum Broadsword - Excellent stats, Terrible Enchantability
There will also be some extremely rare metals that when added in small quantities, provide a boost to the enchantability.
You'd have to experiment to find just how much "space" you need to fit the enchantments you want.
Enchanting as a whole benefits from cross-class interaction a bit more than the other skills. However, it can also be said the other skills benefit from Enchanting as it gives them a new revenue source.
I do have plans for a "solo path" in the system. For example, an Ethereal Furnace can be set to produce to an orb, rod, or ring. Push it with the raw material in your hand, and get an 80-quality finished product out. Not as good as having someone make the orb, rod or ring for you. But it lets you sell reasonably good product solo.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>NMU enchanting will require Arcana ranks and be less efficient. Don't believe there won't ever be some repercussions for learning too much about it as a Barbarian.
I disagree with this design philosophy in principal, and think it's bad, unless barbs get some corresponding nebulous bonus for having some other crafting skill, since they're getting a nebulous penalty for one.
Especially since we can't unlearn crafting, or remove hobby/career choices.
I disagree with this design philosophy in principal, and think it's bad, unless barbs get some corresponding nebulous bonus for having some other crafting skill, since they're getting a nebulous penalty for one.
Especially since we can't unlearn crafting, or remove hobby/career choices.
>>I disagree with this design philosophy in principal, and think it's bad, unless barbs get some corresponding nebulous bonus for having some other crafting skill, since they're getting a nebulous penalty for one.
It's perfectly fine to disagree with the philosophy behind it, but it's by no means new. Guild disadvantages in DR are not treated as zero-sum.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
It's perfectly fine to disagree with the philosophy behind it, but it's by no means new. Guild disadvantages in DR are not treated as zero-sum.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
<<NMU enchanting will require Arcana ranks and be less efficient. Don't believe there won't ever be some repercussions for learning too much about it as a Barbarian.>>
Kodius, I cannot begin to tell you how STRONGLY I object to this statement. Weapon forging does not require weapon ranks or ever weapon mastery ranks to craft a weapon, only skill in the Forging discp. The whole concept behind crafting has been:
If it is something that can be made through a craft it will ONLY requires skill in the appropriate CRAFT, NOTHING ELSE!
Please be consistent! If you are going to require Arcana ranks for crafting and enchantment, then require the same WEAPON/ARMOR/FIRST AID/DISARM and so on skill levels for all OTHER crafts. Maybe a weapon focus for non weapon primaries to finish the weapon successfully. SHEASH!
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
Kodius, I cannot begin to tell you how STRONGLY I object to this statement. Weapon forging does not require weapon ranks or ever weapon mastery ranks to craft a weapon, only skill in the Forging discp. The whole concept behind crafting has been:
If it is something that can be made through a craft it will ONLY requires skill in the appropriate CRAFT, NOTHING ELSE!
Please be consistent! If you are going to require Arcana ranks for crafting and enchantment, then require the same WEAPON/ARMOR/FIRST AID/DISARM and so on skill levels for all OTHER crafts. Maybe a weapon focus for non weapon primaries to finish the weapon successfully. SHEASH!
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
>>unless barbs get some corresponding nebulous bonus
I'm comfortable with Barbarians being allowed to use their teeth in place of pliers.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I'm comfortable with Barbarians being allowed to use their teeth in place of pliers.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Mag, in part.
I don't think having to learn Arcana is anymore of a pain in the butt than the way moon mages have to deal with day/night restrictions, or Rangers/Thieves have to deal with their environment restrictions.
I don't LIKE it, but at the same time, I don't think it's excessively out of the question.
However, as weird as it sounds, I think Barbarians should be the unique ones in this case. We have a long history of issues with magic, so I can totally understand our being treated differently, but Thieves don't really fit that.
There are a fair number of situations where being NMU is a penalty, but I have yet to see one where being a MU causes issues. This seems like a continuation of that lopsidedness.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
I don't think having to learn Arcana is anymore of a pain in the butt than the way moon mages have to deal with day/night restrictions, or Rangers/Thieves have to deal with their environment restrictions.
I don't LIKE it, but at the same time, I don't think it's excessively out of the question.
However, as weird as it sounds, I think Barbarians should be the unique ones in this case. We have a long history of issues with magic, so I can totally understand our being treated differently, but Thieves don't really fit that.
There are a fair number of situations where being NMU is a penalty, but I have yet to see one where being a MU causes issues. This seems like a continuation of that lopsidedness.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Yep, we disagree here. I understand the history of Barbarians distrusting Magic and I still RP it that way. However, it should be a RP choice for a barbarian, not something built into the crafting system. Again
All crafting should be based on crafting skilled only and not have requirements beyond that.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
All crafting should be based on crafting skilled only and not have requirements beyond that.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
Barbarians can't train arcana except through classes? So now crafting skills are tertiary, magics are tertiary and arcana is untrainable... Not happy about that at all.
________________________________________________________________
"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh
________________________________________________________________
"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh
AFAIK magic users are going to have to use Utility to cast Imbue, so it's not like they're not going to have to train a second skill, either.
In the end, all players are going to have to use a secondary skill to enchant, and that secondary skill will be a magic in both situations. The only advantage that magic users have is that they can essentially choose between using Arcana or Utility.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
In the end, all players are going to have to use a secondary skill to enchant, and that secondary skill will be a magic in both situations. The only advantage that magic users have is that they can essentially choose between using Arcana or Utility.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
<<In the end, all players are going to have to use a secondary skill to enchant, and that secondary skill will be a magic in both situations. The only advantage that magic users have is that they can essentially choose between using Arcana or Utility.>>
Not the point.
My point is Crafting is designed to use ONLY crafting skills when making an item. Enchanting should not be the privileged child of the system, nor should MU's take over the privileges removed from barbs for old style weaponsmithing, Palies for old style armorsmithing and rangers for carving bows.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
Not the point.
My point is Crafting is designed to use ONLY crafting skills when making an item. Enchanting should not be the privileged child of the system, nor should MU's take over the privileges removed from barbs for old style weaponsmithing, Palies for old style armorsmithing and rangers for carving bows.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
>>My point is Crafting is designed to use ONLY crafting skills when making an item.
I'm not sure if that's an explicit rule of crafting as opposed to the way it's generally worked so far.
I don't know how the symbol/sigil/whatever gathering system is going to work for enchanting. Maybe there won't be a material gathering stage for enchanting, since it seems to deal explicitly with things already created, so the secondary skill will be used in the crafting process since you'll find them on the fly.
>>Enchanting should not be the privileged child of the system, nor should MU's take over the privileges removed
Depending on how/when the magic portion will take place, it might be no different than survival primes "taking advantage" over others based on material gathering.
I'm comfortable with crafting systems having their own unique aspects. Some crafts require you being in very specific locations (forging), despite others being doable elsewhere (engineering/alchemy/tailoring). Some crafts require multiple materials (alchemy), despite others really just needing one material (forging/engineering/tailoring). Some crafts require you to get some materials in combat (engineering/tailoring) while others can be obtained relatively safely (forging/alchemy). There are different aspects for each craft, so if one requires you to do the "apply the thing you need for the craft at the same time you conjure it up" vs "have everything ready beforehand" I won't really be taken aback.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I'm not sure if that's an explicit rule of crafting as opposed to the way it's generally worked so far.
I don't know how the symbol/sigil/whatever gathering system is going to work for enchanting. Maybe there won't be a material gathering stage for enchanting, since it seems to deal explicitly with things already created, so the secondary skill will be used in the crafting process since you'll find them on the fly.
>>Enchanting should not be the privileged child of the system, nor should MU's take over the privileges removed
Depending on how/when the magic portion will take place, it might be no different than survival primes "taking advantage" over others based on material gathering.
I'm comfortable with crafting systems having their own unique aspects. Some crafts require you being in very specific locations (forging), despite others being doable elsewhere (engineering/alchemy/tailoring). Some crafts require multiple materials (alchemy), despite others really just needing one material (forging/engineering/tailoring). Some crafts require you to get some materials in combat (engineering/tailoring) while others can be obtained relatively safely (forging/alchemy). There are different aspects for each craft, so if one requires you to do the "apply the thing you need for the craft at the same time you conjure it up" vs "have everything ready beforehand" I won't really be taken aback.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>My point is Crafting is designed to use ONLY crafting skills when making an item.
While we might agree on the end point (kinda; I don't feel a barbarian penalty to enchanting, or resultant from learning enchanting, is fair or a great idea, RP be darned) this isn't really true. The crafting systems depend on survival systems to generate the materials to use the crafting systems. So it's already not really a closed loop system which only depends on crafting skill.
While we might agree on the end point (kinda; I don't feel a barbarian penalty to enchanting, or resultant from learning enchanting, is fair or a great idea, RP be darned) this isn't really true. The crafting systems depend on survival systems to generate the materials to use the crafting systems. So it's already not really a closed loop system which only depends on crafting skill.
<<There are a fair number of situations where being NMU is a penalty, but I have yet to see one where being a MU causes issues. This seems like a continuation of that lopsidedness.>>
I don't want to derail the thread considerably, and I agree with your general post, except for this excerpt. What are the other situations where being a NMU is a penalty in 3.1?
I don't want to derail the thread considerably, and I agree with your general post, except for this excerpt. What are the other situations where being a NMU is a penalty in 3.1?
I've brought this up a few times over the years:
I would actually be OK with the existence of a "perfectly fair" enchanting system -- as long as everyone understands and makes peace with the fact it would not be able to produce scrolls, or runestones, or teleport devices, or gweths, or elemental weapon flares, or invisibility rings, among many other things that would be crudely vivisected from the skill's domain.
Guild specificity is a fundamental part of the design of a creation skill that wants to boldly cross guild boundaries.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I would actually be OK with the existence of a "perfectly fair" enchanting system -- as long as everyone understands and makes peace with the fact it would not be able to produce scrolls, or runestones, or teleport devices, or gweths, or elemental weapon flares, or invisibility rings, among many other things that would be crudely vivisected from the skill's domain.
Guild specificity is a fundamental part of the design of a creation skill that wants to boldly cross guild boundaries.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
>I would actually be OK with the existence of a "perfectly fair" enchanting system -- as long as everyone understands and makes peace with the fact it would not be able to produce scrolls, or runestones, or teleport devices, or gweths, or elemental weapon flares, or invisibility rings, among many other things that would be crudely vivisected from the skill's domain.
My reading of this is: it wouldn't make anything useful. Is that your intention to convey?
>Guild specificity is a fundamental part of the design of a creation skill that wants to boldly cross guild boundaries.
I guess my problem is that up till now that 'guild boundary' has been flavor, and we haven't seen an actual penalty locking a class out of a large swath of system (An entire crafting subset) or 'fear the penalty'.
>I don't want to derail the thread considerably, and I agree with your general post, except for this excerpt. What are the other situations where being a NMU is a penalty in 3.1?
Well, if we look at thieves in 3.1, they still can't train warding or utility (thief/barb respectively), arcana, PP, or TM. Thus, they take a hefty use penalty on charged MD such as CJ, or they have to seek out the one magic item in DR which will teach MD to infinite ranks (the blow-on-me crystal). They lack the ability to use any other guild abilities via the scroll system. Their abilities do not run on 'the spell/magic' system, which means they require a special subset of GM to code, rather than generic 'make a magic widget' GM. They inevitably tie ability use to a static, not skill based, system, such as concentration or inner fire, rather than attunement and room based mana. They lack access to AoE attacks such as FoU, CL, Rebuke, etc.
And there are only two of them, rather than every-other-guild running on core magic. Honestly, I just gave you a data dump of every down side I could think of to playing a character not tied to core magic. If I had to pick which of those I think are real annoyances, I'd pick the lack of ability to train some magic skills, and the fact that they don't have access to other guild abilities to boost shortcomings, which is compounded by the whole 'needs a specialized GM to make abilities' thing.
My reading of this is: it wouldn't make anything useful. Is that your intention to convey?
>Guild specificity is a fundamental part of the design of a creation skill that wants to boldly cross guild boundaries.
I guess my problem is that up till now that 'guild boundary' has been flavor, and we haven't seen an actual penalty locking a class out of a large swath of system (An entire crafting subset) or 'fear the penalty'.
>I don't want to derail the thread considerably, and I agree with your general post, except for this excerpt. What are the other situations where being a NMU is a penalty in 3.1?
Well, if we look at thieves in 3.1, they still can't train warding or utility (thief/barb respectively), arcana, PP, or TM. Thus, they take a hefty use penalty on charged MD such as CJ, or they have to seek out the one magic item in DR which will teach MD to infinite ranks (the blow-on-me crystal). They lack the ability to use any other guild abilities via the scroll system. Their abilities do not run on 'the spell/magic' system, which means they require a special subset of GM to code, rather than generic 'make a magic widget' GM. They inevitably tie ability use to a static, not skill based, system, such as concentration or inner fire, rather than attunement and room based mana. They lack access to AoE attacks such as FoU, CL, Rebuke, etc.
And there are only two of them, rather than every-other-guild running on core magic. Honestly, I just gave you a data dump of every down side I could think of to playing a character not tied to core magic. If I had to pick which of those I think are real annoyances, I'd pick the lack of ability to train some magic skills, and the fact that they don't have access to other guild abilities to boost shortcomings, which is compounded by the whole 'needs a specialized GM to make abilities' thing.
>>My reading of this is: it wouldn't make anything useful. Is that your intention to convey?
I did sort of wonder after typing that what would actually be created by an enchanting system without guild inputs. Skill and stat boosters come to mind. Magical lights. Cambrinth. Probably any unique devices designed explicitly to be built by the system, rather than the reverse logic of "Let's take a guild ability and make it a device."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
I did sort of wonder after typing that what would actually be created by an enchanting system without guild inputs. Skill and stat boosters come to mind. Magical lights. Cambrinth. Probably any unique devices designed explicitly to be built by the system, rather than the reverse logic of "Let's take a guild ability and make it a device."
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
People - imbue is necessary to enchant. Imbue is a spell. MUs will need to spend SPELL SLOTS on IMBUE. NMUs have no spell slots. There isn't ANY balanced way to balance this.
NMUs will still be able to cap items. They'll still be able to work on the go. But it'll be more complicated because they need to use a magical item to do it, or go to a Guildhall and use the superior tools there.
Already mages are emailing me in frustration that they'll need to spend slots on Imbue. I told them no, you only need to spend spell slots if you want an easier time at one part of the enchanting process. MUs can just as easily forgo the spell and make use of the magic enchanting items or guildhall tools.
As for Barbarians - I've always said there would be a heavy dose of RP-oriented penalties. On a mechanical level I'd like for the process of enchanting to cumulatively lower your passive IF regen. Over time this penalty will wear off and you'll go back to normal. The regenerating of this will be determined by your ratio of IF skill to Arcana skill. Breaking some magic items will also help.
Yes, this makes Barbarians different. I hear constant complaints that Guilds are too cookie cutter, and when we try to add some diversity even more complaints roll in.
There will likely be a Mastery ability to remove this effect. Templar Mastery will make it worse.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
NMUs will still be able to cap items. They'll still be able to work on the go. But it'll be more complicated because they need to use a magical item to do it, or go to a Guildhall and use the superior tools there.
Already mages are emailing me in frustration that they'll need to spend slots on Imbue. I told them no, you only need to spend spell slots if you want an easier time at one part of the enchanting process. MUs can just as easily forgo the spell and make use of the magic enchanting items or guildhall tools.
As for Barbarians - I've always said there would be a heavy dose of RP-oriented penalties. On a mechanical level I'd like for the process of enchanting to cumulatively lower your passive IF regen. Over time this penalty will wear off and you'll go back to normal. The regenerating of this will be determined by your ratio of IF skill to Arcana skill. Breaking some magic items will also help.
Yes, this makes Barbarians different. I hear constant complaints that Guilds are too cookie cutter, and when we try to add some diversity even more complaints roll in.
There will likely be a Mastery ability to remove this effect. Templar Mastery will make it worse.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Kodius, maybe I am reading this wrong. From what you said, can a barbarian, if he so chooses become the BEST enchanter just like a Moon Mage can become the best weapons smith? Without studying ARCANA?
If the answer is yes, I will shut up.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
If the answer is yes, I will shut up.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
>People - imbue is necessary to enchant. Imbue is a spell. MUs will need to spend SPELL SLOTS on IMBUE. NMUs have no spell slots. There isn't ANY balanced way to balance this.
As a reference, I'm almost certain that Imbue is going to be at least a three slot investment after the recent updates to AP spell preqs. I can't speak for all MUs but for me personally, I don't just have that many extra (if any) slots laying around. While I really want to enchant, it seems likely that I'll just make do with the other tools, etc until I can find a way to open up more slots to ease my way with Imbue. So it's not without sacrifices for the MUs either.
As a reference, I'm almost certain that Imbue is going to be at least a three slot investment after the recent updates to AP spell preqs. I can't speak for all MUs but for me personally, I don't just have that many extra (if any) slots laying around. While I really want to enchant, it seems likely that I'll just make do with the other tools, etc until I can find a way to open up more slots to ease my way with Imbue. So it's not without sacrifices for the MUs either.
If I can forge the best "enchantable" weapon or armor, and then get someone else to actually enchant it, I guess I really don't care. This isn't a fight that barbarians are going to win. From a game lore and guild lore perspective, magic is anathema, so I get it. It's not like my barbarian needs another lore skill to circle or even do what he does best which is kill things. I already forge, outfit, and carve. I don't also need to enchant. Amazing what a good night's sleep will do for perspective.
________________________________________________________________
"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh
________________________________________________________________
"I only automatically kill players when they're asking for it or it's funny. Or both." ~GM Raesh
<<If I had to pick which of those I think are real annoyances, I'd pick the lack of ability to train some magic skills, and the fact that they don't have access to other guild abilities to boost shortcomings, which is compounded by the whole 'needs a specialized GM to make abilities' thing.>>
That makes sense. I think number one is completely valid and should be fixed. If NMUs need arcana (or other magic skills) for, well, anything, they should have a way of training it.
I think the second drawback is fine. While I personally love the scroll system on an MU, thief and barb abilities cover an incredibly broad range of boosts/effects and cannot be dispelled. The latter is an enormous advantage in PvP. I also suspect that enchanting will allow NMUs to boost shortcomings in most of the same ways that scroll spells operate for MUs. Granted, I don't think we'll see barbs casting malediction via a wand or something, but I can see everyone getting to use a bless rag. Some niche support will come in from the device angle.
That makes sense. I think number one is completely valid and should be fixed. If NMUs need arcana (or other magic skills) for, well, anything, they should have a way of training it.
I think the second drawback is fine. While I personally love the scroll system on an MU, thief and barb abilities cover an incredibly broad range of boosts/effects and cannot be dispelled. The latter is an enormous advantage in PvP. I also suspect that enchanting will allow NMUs to boost shortcomings in most of the same ways that scroll spells operate for MUs. Granted, I don't think we'll see barbs casting malediction via a wand or something, but I can see everyone getting to use a bless rag. Some niche support will come in from the device angle.
To me this is a matter of principle. Magdar will NEVER enchant an item, but I hate being lied to. We were told crafting would be based on the appropriate crafting skill, materials involved, Career/hobby, techniques and nothing else. Was there a design change? If so how about another one to add weapon skills as a requirement for weapon crafting.
Open Enchanting to the world. Remove any restriction that prevents one guild from being the best at it. Come on, this is the same argument used to remove weaponsmithing/armoring from barbs and pallies. If it was valid then, it is valid now.
Look, just remove the necessity of the Imbue spell from crafting. Give us an item we buy at the crafting supply to replace it.
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'RissI
Open Enchanting to the world. Remove any restriction that prevents one guild from being the best at it. Come on, this is the same argument used to remove weaponsmithing/armoring from barbs and pallies. If it was valid then, it is valid now.
Look, just remove the necessity of the Imbue spell from crafting. Give us an item we buy at the crafting supply to replace it.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'RissI
>>We were told crafting would be based on the appropriate crafting skill, materials involved, Career/hobby, techniques and nothing else.
I'm pretty sure were were never told this.
What we were told is that crafting was moving away from requiring skill in the weapon/armor you were crafting and that certain guilds weren't going to have innate natural bonuses that discourage non-that-guild people from crafting at all.
>>Remove any restriction that prevents one guild from being the best at it.
There is no restriction that does this.
At the same time, if you're really bugged about having to use a secondary skill in the crafting process, just have someone else there to help out, just like you'd need someone else to help out if you were forging and decided you don't want to train outdoorsmanship yet still wanted kertig.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I'm pretty sure were were never told this.
What we were told is that crafting was moving away from requiring skill in the weapon/armor you were crafting and that certain guilds weren't going to have innate natural bonuses that discourage non-that-guild people from crafting at all.
>>Remove any restriction that prevents one guild from being the best at it.
There is no restriction that does this.
At the same time, if you're really bugged about having to use a secondary skill in the crafting process, just have someone else there to help out, just like you'd need someone else to help out if you were forging and decided you don't want to train outdoorsmanship yet still wanted kertig.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
<<At the same time, if you're really bugged about having to use a secondary skill in the crafting process,>>
On the contrary! I WANT weapons skills to count in weaponsmithing, armor in armorsmithing and so on. I believe that the ability to use a lockpick/weapon/armor should help in determining the quality of the lockpick/weapon/armor you make.
If you need a magic skill in the enchanting craft, you should need a weapon skill in weaponsmithing craft and so on...
Outdoorsmanship: 889 And I have NO problem doing my own mining. Magdar is a dwarf ya know!
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
On the contrary! I WANT weapons skills to count in weaponsmithing, armor in armorsmithing and so on. I believe that the ability to use a lockpick/weapon/armor should help in determining the quality of the lockpick/weapon/armor you make.
If you need a magic skill in the enchanting craft, you should need a weapon skill in weaponsmithing craft and so on...
Outdoorsmanship: 889 And I have NO problem doing my own mining. Magdar is a dwarf ya know!
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
>>I WANT weapons skills to count in weaponsmithing, armor in armorsmithing and so on. I believe that the ability to use a lockpick/weapon/armor should help in determining the quality of the lockpick/weapon/armor you make.
>>If you need a magic skill in the enchanting craft, you should need a weapon skill in weaponsmithing craft and so on...
You see the difference between those two things as they're being used in the system, right?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>If you need a magic skill in the enchanting craft, you should need a weapon skill in weaponsmithing craft and so on...
You see the difference between those two things as they're being used in the system, right?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>On the contrary! I WANT weapons skills to count in weaponsmithing, armor in armorsmithing and so on. I believe that the ability to use a lockpick/weapon/armor should help in determining the quality of the lockpick/weapon/armor you make.
No.
This was and always has been utterly stupid and without redeeming features, as a design concept, and the only purpose it serves is to give guilds a random bonus, which is more than replicated in the current design system via free feats, extra techs, etc.
To use a few real world examples: a mechanical engineer does not know how to drive the formula 1 car he just designed. The mechanics, who build that formula 1 car do not know how to drive it. The formula 1 driver does not know how to build or design a car, but he does know how to drive it. The three skills are not inter-related.
Or: Just because I've been playing video games for 20 years (i.e. swinging that digital sword) doesn't mean I have a remote idea of how to MAKE a video game.
None of this means I particularly like the idea of making a crafting system which is so caster biased, even if I understand why. It's just not equitable, and there's enough bias against NMUs as is. Thieves pick up slots roughly 1/2 as fast as magic tert guilds (2 abilities per 10 circles, to a magic tert 5), if they want to blow one on 'thief imbue' why not make the ability? Barbs gain abilties at a rate on par with other magic tert guilds, see same statement. And I probably won't even use the system, I just hate having mechanic lockouts or penalties for things without some equitable bonus or specific reward.
No.
This was and always has been utterly stupid and without redeeming features, as a design concept, and the only purpose it serves is to give guilds a random bonus, which is more than replicated in the current design system via free feats, extra techs, etc.
To use a few real world examples: a mechanical engineer does not know how to drive the formula 1 car he just designed. The mechanics, who build that formula 1 car do not know how to drive it. The formula 1 driver does not know how to build or design a car, but he does know how to drive it. The three skills are not inter-related.
Or: Just because I've been playing video games for 20 years (i.e. swinging that digital sword) doesn't mean I have a remote idea of how to MAKE a video game.
None of this means I particularly like the idea of making a crafting system which is so caster biased, even if I understand why. It's just not equitable, and there's enough bias against NMUs as is. Thieves pick up slots roughly 1/2 as fast as magic tert guilds (2 abilities per 10 circles, to a magic tert 5), if they want to blow one on 'thief imbue' why not make the ability? Barbs gain abilties at a rate on par with other magic tert guilds, see same statement. And I probably won't even use the system, I just hate having mechanic lockouts or penalties for things without some equitable bonus or specific reward.
Keep in mind that the Arcana part might just be similar to how Lunar Aura Devices help Thieves get past some security measures in Throne City's Museum. I wouldn't be that apoplectic until finding out the finer details of how Imbue/Arcana-Tool-X come into play.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I hate it when people use RL examples to justify things in a fantasy world. Who cares what can be done on Earth? Dragon Realms is NOT earth. Magic ya know. Causal raising of the dead. NOT EARTH, stop telling me why things should work like they do by using Earth Stuff as your example. It would be just as valid (or more so) to use Tolkens' Middle earth to say how magic should work or Star Wars to determine how inner fire should work.
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
Please, you are freaking out about nothing...
Wait until you actually see the system before freaking out.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Wait until you actually see the system before freaking out.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>> Kodius: Wait until you actually see the system before freaking out.
>> COVERG:I WANT weapons skills to count in weaponsmithing, armor in armorsmithing and so on. I believe that the ability to use a lockpick/weapon/armor should help in determining the quality of the lockpick/weapon/armor you make.
>>COVERG:If you need a magic skill in the enchanting craft, you should need a weapon skill in weaponsmithing craft and so on...
I kinda get the impression that the limitations on enchanting are not the real issue here. It seems this is more a vehicle to try and re-open the debate about needing weapons to be a better weapon smith. Maybe I am wrong though.
>> COVERG:I WANT weapons skills to count in weaponsmithing, armor in armorsmithing and so on. I believe that the ability to use a lockpick/weapon/armor should help in determining the quality of the lockpick/weapon/armor you make.
>>COVERG:If you need a magic skill in the enchanting craft, you should need a weapon skill in weaponsmithing craft and so on...
I kinda get the impression that the limitations on enchanting are not the real issue here. It seems this is more a vehicle to try and re-open the debate about needing weapons to be a better weapon smith. Maybe I am wrong though.
Nope I lost that one and am living with it. Well I was until this using magic in a craft came up. What I want is consistency and fairness. Remove Magic requirement from the enchanting craft or add back equivalent skills to the rest of the crafts.
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
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Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
From how I'm reading it, it isn't you need X amount of Arcana to craft something, you just need to be able to cast a spell. That's it. Or use some tool to mimic the casting of that spell to create the item. You will need X Arcana to be able to use the item to full ability, but that is the same as many other crafts. Can a barb with 500 large edge swing a forged sword better than a trader with 100 large edge? Yes. Will a moonie with 500 arcana be able to use enchanted-trinket better than a ranger with 100 arcana? Yes. Maybe I'm wrong in how I see it though.
>>I am sure it will be fair and allow a barb to be top in the enchanting craft without learning any magic.
A barbarian with the proper amount of Arcana to turn on the magic-fier that lets you do (some?) enchanting crafts can be the top enchanter.
Similarly, a warrior mage without the proper amount of Arcana or Utility won't be able to turn on/cast the magic-fier to do (some?) enchanting crafts.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
A barbarian with the proper amount of Arcana to turn on the magic-fier that lets you do (some?) enchanting crafts can be the top enchanter.
Similarly, a warrior mage without the proper amount of Arcana or Utility won't be able to turn on/cast the magic-fier to do (some?) enchanting crafts.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>I hate it when people use RL examples to justify things in a fantasy world.
DR uses psuedo-physics, and the comparison is not one to one, since DR doesn't have formula 1 race cars. It does, however, have a base level learning and psuedo-physics system which mimics real life, without directly mirroring it.
Since we don't have an analogues to compare it to in DR, aside from the past or existing crafting systems, I chose one from real life. Because that's how analogies work. You can't just compare it to existing systems because those are pliable, and you're asking that they be changed.
So no, it's not an invalid comparison, it goes to explain how people think. You don't just get to hand-wave off the entire mechanism of human thought, learning, and skills, 'because this isn't real life'. Magic and sorcery do not change that having knowledge of using a tool doesn't remotely have anything to do with having knowledge of how to make a tool.
How about this: I can go to the trader and buy a Gweth. I still have no idea, player or character, of how to make one. I can go to the inn and buy a beer. Even if I buy 50 plat worth of beer and drink it I don't suddenly know how to make any.
DR uses psuedo-physics, and the comparison is not one to one, since DR doesn't have formula 1 race cars. It does, however, have a base level learning and psuedo-physics system which mimics real life, without directly mirroring it.
Since we don't have an analogues to compare it to in DR, aside from the past or existing crafting systems, I chose one from real life. Because that's how analogies work. You can't just compare it to existing systems because those are pliable, and you're asking that they be changed.
So no, it's not an invalid comparison, it goes to explain how people think. You don't just get to hand-wave off the entire mechanism of human thought, learning, and skills, 'because this isn't real life'. Magic and sorcery do not change that having knowledge of using a tool doesn't remotely have anything to do with having knowledge of how to make a tool.
How about this: I can go to the trader and buy a Gweth. I still have no idea, player or character, of how to make one. I can go to the inn and buy a beer. Even if I buy 50 plat worth of beer and drink it I don't suddenly know how to make any.
>>I did sort of wonder after typing that what would actually be created by an enchanting system without guild inputs. Skill and stat boosters come to mind.
Skill boosting enchantments have been mentioned before. I think everyone agreed that CJ were out of balance in the old system, so I'm wondering what would be the difference between lunar prediction and these proposed enchanting skill boosters?
Length and strength maybe? Or a character can have only one enchantment boost active at a time? Each guild could boost perhaps only certain skills? I know you've not fleshed it out but any preliminary ideas? I'm assuming that with enchanting all guilds will be able to create skill boosters. I'm also hoping that lunar prediction will remain the better of the two in the way that astral travel and moongating are better than jump jewelry.
Skill boosting enchantments have been mentioned before. I think everyone agreed that CJ were out of balance in the old system, so I'm wondering what would be the difference between lunar prediction and these proposed enchanting skill boosters?
Length and strength maybe? Or a character can have only one enchantment boost active at a time? Each guild could boost perhaps only certain skills? I know you've not fleshed it out but any preliminary ideas? I'm assuming that with enchanting all guilds will be able to create skill boosters. I'm also hoping that lunar prediction will remain the better of the two in the way that astral travel and moongating are better than jump jewelry.
>>I think everyone agreed that CJ were out of balance in the old system, so I'm wondering what would be the difference between lunar prediction and these proposed enchanting skill boosters?
IIRC, the issue was more the specific ways CJs themselves functioned, not skill boosters as a whole.
The issue with CJs were more how much they boosted skills, the lack of cooldowns, etc.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
IIRC, the issue was more the specific ways CJs themselves functioned, not skill boosters as a whole.
The issue with CJs were more how much they boosted skills, the lack of cooldowns, etc.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
