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The initial Tinkering release featuring Crossbow and Bolt crafting is now live in Test if you'd like to play with it. A few notes about the new system -
The base ingredient for Crossbows is of course, wood. Wood affinities were expanded so Shortbow = Arbalest, Longbow = Heavy Crossbow, and Composite bow = Light crossbow.
Tinkered items usually require mechanisms as one of the ingredients. These can be made from a GEAR PRESS tool in the crafting halls. They are made by pushing/pulling the device with an ingot, and the resulting mechanisms can stack. Metal has a new ductility attribute you can observe by appraising it carefully. High ductility mechanisms will bonus the crossbow's balance. Very low ductility mechanisms will greatly penalize balance, but provide a small boost to power.
Old crossbow stats did not change. Nor did their damage significantly.
New crossbows have new power/balance/draw_strength stats appropriately balanced for their RTs. They are NOT comparable with old crossbows. They are NOT comparable with stick bows. Stickbows spanned the range of power levels, so it wasn't possible to add crossbows/arbs on top of that. There just wasn't enough range leftover :(
New light and heavy crossbows should do more damage than the old ones with the same RT, but in general the new crossbows feature reduced RTs.
New crossbows do not benefit from strength/skill RT reductions. This was necessary so crossbows weren't "handicapped" compared to stick bows and other weapon types. Let's get through balance testing and we can see if it makes sense to somehow throw in somewhere.
Arbalests should now feature much lower RTs for loading. The damage will be a bit lower due to the faster loading RTs, but appropriate on a pure math-based DPS calculation.
Crossbow bolt crafting works very similar to arrow crafting. You must now specify which type of shaft to craft when shaping it. SHAPE LUMBER INTO BOLT SHAFT or ARROW SHAFT. It uses the same animal parts for now. That may change if I find a few weeks to expand the associated systems more.
That should cover the important parts. Please discuss it over in the appropriate Lore folder for now.
Thanks!
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
I haven't even touched test yet, but I just wanted to throw in a heartfelt thanks that you and anyone else that may have worked on this directly or indirectly kept plinking away (pun intended). It really is appreciated.
"Give a man fire and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett
"You're Michael Jackson's hair and I'm a Pepsi commercial!" Bucky from Get Fuzzy
"Give a man fire and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett
"You're Michael Jackson's hair and I'm a Pepsi commercial!" Bucky from Get Fuzzy
I haven't done testing in ages, so please forgive me if this is not the correct procedure. I wasn't sure if I should bug it or put it here so others saw that the question was asked.
Are the books or techs available through some means or is this purely for specialized testers/GMs? They're definitely not available in the engineering building currently, but maybe it needs the instance reloaded for that to pop up. In any case, I'll check back tomorrow, and I hope everyone has a good night.
"Give a man fire and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett
"You're Michael Jackson's hair and I'm a Pepsi commercial!" Bucky from Get Fuzzy
Are the books or techs available through some means or is this purely for specialized testers/GMs? They're definitely not available in the engineering building currently, but maybe it needs the instance reloaded for that to pop up. In any case, I'll check back tomorrow, and I hope everyone has a good night.
"Give a man fire and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett
"You're Michael Jackson's hair and I'm a Pepsi commercial!" Bucky from Get Fuzzy
I haven't popped over yet to see where myself, but often things that are being tested are limited to Crossing if you're not already checking there. And sometimes they just plunk a bunch of stuff down on a table outside the NE gate or other common area in Crossing for people to grab for testing.
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Seems there is a page missing on making boltheads or I could just be blind and not seeing it.
SEND[Naohhi] We'll look into it, but for now, you're making giant errors pop up all over the place on this side. :p
SEND[Naohhi] That means.. please stop.
You have some tiny scratches to the wings.
SEND[Naohhi] We'll look into it, but for now, you're making giant errors pop up all over the place on this side. :p
SEND[Naohhi] That means.. please stop.
You have some tiny scratches to the wings.
Think I found a couple typos when pulling a mechanism with the press:
> pull mechanism with press
Upon pressing the second button, a horizontal press slams a portion of remaining ingot against a wire draw with many different-sized openings. Woth the pliers you mold each strand of molten metal into springs, fasteners and wires.
Says 'Woth' instead of 'With'. And I think "a portion of remaining ingot" should be "a portion of the remaining ingot", though I'm not sure on that one.
- Miskton
> pull mechanism with press
Upon pressing the second button, a horizontal press slams a portion of remaining ingot against a wire draw with many different-sized openings. Woth the pliers you mold each strand of molten metal into springs, fasteners and wires.
Says 'Woth' instead of 'With'. And I think "a portion of remaining ingot" should be "a portion of the remaining ingot", though I'm not sure on that one.
- Miskton
With many thanks to Naniaki for bringing me some mastercrafted steel, and ANOTHER tech to make up for these abysmal tools in the Society store, here's a maple (85 affinity, if I understood Kodius's first post) recurve crossbow from the Heavy Crossbow chapter:
A maple recurve crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.
A maple recurve crossbow trains the crossbow skill.
The recurve crossbow is very well (10/17) designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the crossbow is inadequately (4/17) balanced and is very well (10/17) suited for adding attack power from its draw strength.
The crossbow appears set for a draw strength that is extremely low for a bow of this type.
The crossbow does not appear to have an adjustable draw strength.
You are certain that the recurve crossbow is extremely weak and easily damaged, and is in pristine condition (98-100%).
The recurve crossbow is made with metal.
It appears that the recurve crossbow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the recurve crossbow weighs exactly 185 stones.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Singing since before the Guild was restored.
A maple recurve crossbow is a heavy crossbow type weapon.
A maple recurve crossbow trains the crossbow skill.
The recurve crossbow is very well (10/17) designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the crossbow is inadequately (4/17) balanced and is very well (10/17) suited for adding attack power from its draw strength.
The crossbow appears set for a draw strength that is extremely low for a bow of this type.
The crossbow does not appear to have an adjustable draw strength.
You are certain that the recurve crossbow is extremely weak and easily damaged, and is in pristine condition (98-100%).
The recurve crossbow is made with metal.
It appears that the recurve crossbow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the recurve crossbow weighs exactly 185 stones.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Singing since before the Guild was restored.
I'm sure everyone will want how fast this new heavy recurve xbow loads.
Over 50 loads (this was NO fun, let me tell you, I had NO idea crossbows were this slow to unload! SHEEESH) the xbow averaged a hand load of 6.28 seconds.
Some were 6 seconds, some were 7 secs. Those were the only load times.
So there's the reduced load time Kodius was talking about.
~D.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Singing since before the Guild was restored.
Over 50 loads (this was NO fun, let me tell you, I had NO idea crossbows were this slow to unload! SHEEESH) the xbow averaged a hand load of 6.28 seconds.
Some were 6 seconds, some were 7 secs. Those were the only load times.
So there's the reduced load time Kodius was talking about.
~D.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Singing since before the Guild was restored.
> Over 50 loads (this was NO fun, let me tell you, I had NO idea crossbows were this slow to unload! SHEEESH) the xbow averaged a hand load of 6.28 seconds
What were the unloads times? Reading your statement makes it sound like the unload times might be considerably higher than the load times. Been some time since I bothered unloading a crossbow in Prime. I have logged into test several times now however missing over 400 ranks in engineering and not having my tools/mats has me waiting for a resync. Trying to be patient though.
What were the unloads times? Reading your statement makes it sound like the unload times might be considerably higher than the load times. Been some time since I bothered unloading a crossbow in Prime. I have logged into test several times now however missing over 400 ranks in engineering and not having my tools/mats has me waiting for a resync. Trying to be patient though.
Unload took 4 seconds.
I don't use crossbows, so I had no idea it would be more painful that unloading a bow. I have nothing to compare it to for existing crossbow load times, either. If this was the new, improved faster one, gosh, it's a wonder anyone uses them!
And yes, testing without all these months of tools, lumber, and skill ... is sort of less than useful.
~D.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Singing since before the Guild was restored.
I don't use crossbows, so I had no idea it would be more painful that unloading a bow. I have nothing to compare it to for existing crossbow load times, either. If this was the new, improved faster one, gosh, it's a wonder anyone uses them!
And yes, testing without all these months of tools, lumber, and skill ... is sort of less than useful.
~D.
- - -
~Dreamheart Delaevan Forestwolf
Singing since before the Guild was restored.
Reading the tinkering chart in the Crossing society returns the carving chart's output instead. Reading the 'third' chart, in the order they exist currently also returns the wrong chart. Looking at it indicates I'm looking at the right one.
> l tink chart
This chart depicts a list of tinkering techniques. You should read it.
> read tinkering chart
You see a listing of techniques from the carving crafting discipline taught here:
Basic Stone Splitting
\__Improved Stone Cutting
\__Improvised Stone Weaponry
\__Sophisticated Stone Weaponry
etc.
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> l tink chart
This chart depicts a list of tinkering techniques. You should read it.
> read tinkering chart
You see a listing of techniques from the carving crafting discipline taught here:
Basic Stone Splitting
\__Improved Stone Cutting
\__Improvised Stone Weaponry
\__Sophisticated Stone Weaponry
etc.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
> And yes, testing without all these months of tools, lumber, and skill ... is sort of less than useful.
Not to mention that I have gathered a lot of mats for arrowheads. Have close to 300 or so right now of various types.
> I have nothing to compare it to for existing crossbow load times, either.
Looks to be about normal with current unload from Prime. I just looked at three toons with several different crossbows and unload times ranged from 3-4 seconds with LX and HX while load times ranged for 7 to 11 seconds. Only one different so far...
You unload the arbalest.
Roundtime: 6 seconds
But of course it had a 12 second load time and that is with current XB reductions.
Not to mention that I have gathered a lot of mats for arrowheads. Have close to 300 or so right now of various types.
> I have nothing to compare it to for existing crossbow load times, either.
Looks to be about normal with current unload from Prime. I just looked at three toons with several different crossbows and unload times ranged from 3-4 seconds with LX and HX while load times ranged for 7 to 11 seconds. Only one different so far...
You unload the arbalest.
Roundtime: 6 seconds
But of course it had a 12 second load time and that is with current XB reductions.
>Could we also get stonebows included in the light crossbows?<
There is an empty chapter for stonebows. When I asked about this the other night Kodius said that the current test is only for crossbows and bolts. Chapters that include stonebows and siege weapons aren't ready yet.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
There is an empty chapter for stonebows. When I asked about this the other night Kodius said that the current test is only for crossbows and bolts. Chapters that include stonebows and siege weapons aren't ready yet.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
A few things...
1). Several bugs mentioned in spots that I will fix.
2). I'll work on the mechanism materials issues a bit so Engineers don't also have to be forgers.
3). Bows and Crossbows have a base technique (Light, Heavy, Arbalest - Shortbow, Longbow, Comp Bow). Then they have an advanced technique for heavier/lighter variants of each. The terminology is just confusing and I should rename the light crossbow technique accordingly.
4). I didn't touch unload time. Didn't know anyone found it a problem.
5). Load times are 20-40% faster across the board. People may still ragequit because they take a long time to load. But keep in mind they also do 20-150% more damage than bows... so the extra load time is necessary.
6). Old crossbow stats were not touched. AT ALL. Any changes to your old crossbows are the result of a bug, or your imagination. They still use the old damage formula too...
Old crossbow was about 8 load RT. Foresters, which everyone uses, were 7. The lighter xbows now are 5 and 6 RT to load. They also do less damage per hit to keep the DPS consistent.
Old Heavy Xbows took about 8 or 9 seconds to load. The new ones can go down to 6 seconds to load. Again, the damage is a bit less than their old counterparts to keep the DPS balanced.
Old Arbalests took a night and a day to load. Some, around 12 seconds. The new ones range from 8-10 seconds. Heavier varients will be added eventually. The lightest ones do less damage, the heavier ones more to keep it fair.
All crossbows will do more damage after this change due to better ammo now existing. Win for the old. Win for the new.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
1). Several bugs mentioned in spots that I will fix.
2). I'll work on the mechanism materials issues a bit so Engineers don't also have to be forgers.
3). Bows and Crossbows have a base technique (Light, Heavy, Arbalest - Shortbow, Longbow, Comp Bow). Then they have an advanced technique for heavier/lighter variants of each. The terminology is just confusing and I should rename the light crossbow technique accordingly.
4). I didn't touch unload time. Didn't know anyone found it a problem.
5). Load times are 20-40% faster across the board. People may still ragequit because they take a long time to load. But keep in mind they also do 20-150% more damage than bows... so the extra load time is necessary.
6). Old crossbow stats were not touched. AT ALL. Any changes to your old crossbows are the result of a bug, or your imagination. They still use the old damage formula too...
Old crossbow was about 8 load RT. Foresters, which everyone uses, were 7. The lighter xbows now are 5 and 6 RT to load. They also do less damage per hit to keep the DPS consistent.
Old Heavy Xbows took about 8 or 9 seconds to load. The new ones can go down to 6 seconds to load. Again, the damage is a bit less than their old counterparts to keep the DPS balanced.
Old Arbalests took a night and a day to load. Some, around 12 seconds. The new ones range from 8-10 seconds. Heavier varients will be added eventually. The lightest ones do less damage, the heavier ones more to keep it fair.
All crossbows will do more damage after this change due to better ammo now existing. Win for the old. Win for the new.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
lol the dwarven siege arbalet IIRC had an 18 second load
So, Kodius... What's the chance on keeping stat based load reductions? or perhaps applying them to bows as well to even things out. It really is a cool spice to ranged. Gives something to shoot for. I know it may need tweaked, but I posted up about that before giving a new layout. I understand that things are a little faster now, but mundane "feats" earned through stats are something I really wish there were more of in the game. I'd hate to lose this.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
So, Kodius... What's the chance on keeping stat based load reductions? or perhaps applying them to bows as well to even things out. It really is a cool spice to ranged. Gives something to shoot for. I know it may need tweaked, but I posted up about that before giving a new layout. I understand that things are a little faster now, but mundane "feats" earned through stats are something I really wish there were more of in the game. I'd hate to lose this.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
<< mundane "feats" earned through stats are something I really wish there were more of in the game. I'd hate to lose this.
I second Elec but i'll settle with less. I get that load reduction was a balancing issue at lower levels but that still leaves us the quiver load reduction to work with, which is more of a quality of life thing and some guilds already have it, so no big balancing problems there.
Maybe stat or/and rank based quiver load for the rest of the guilds could fill that void?
I second Elec but i'll settle with less. I get that load reduction was a balancing issue at lower levels but that still leaves us the quiver load reduction to work with, which is more of a quality of life thing and some guilds already have it, so no big balancing problems there.
Maybe stat or/and rank based quiver load for the rest of the guilds could fill that void?
>6). Old crossbow stats were not touched. AT ALL. Any changes to your old crossbows are the result of a bug, or your imagination. They still use the old damage formula too...
It must be a bug then. Here's the old and new apps of one of the old crossbows URITEL? mentioned:
A steel-plated ironwood crossbow with a sculpted dragon-head cranequin is a heavy crossbow type weapon. 11
A steel-plated ironwood crossbow with a sculpted dragon-head cranequin trains the crossbow skill.
The ironwood crossbow is perfectly designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the crossbow is inadequately balanced and is not suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow is appreciably susceptible to damage, and is in pristine condition.
The ironwood crossbow is made with metal.
It appears that the ironwood crossbow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow weighs exactly 150 stones.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow is worth exactly 18750 Kronars.
And the current:
A steel-plated ironwood crossbow with a sculpted dragon-head cranequin is a heavy crossbow type weapon.
A steel-plated ironwood crossbow with a sculpted dragon-head cranequin trains the crossbow skill.
The ironwood crossbow is extremely well designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the crossbow is inadequately balanced and is not suited for adding attack power from its draw strength.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow is appreciably susceptible to damage, and is in pristine condition.
The ironwood crossbow is made with metal.
It appears that the ironwood crossbow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow weighs exactly 150 stones.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow is worth exactly 13530 Dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
It must be a bug then. Here's the old and new apps of one of the old crossbows URITEL? mentioned:
A steel-plated ironwood crossbow with a sculpted dragon-head cranequin is a heavy crossbow type weapon. 11
A steel-plated ironwood crossbow with a sculpted dragon-head cranequin trains the crossbow skill.
The ironwood crossbow is perfectly designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the crossbow is inadequately balanced and is not suited to gaining extra attack power from your strength.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow is appreciably susceptible to damage, and is in pristine condition.
The ironwood crossbow is made with metal.
It appears that the ironwood crossbow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow weighs exactly 150 stones.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow is worth exactly 18750 Kronars.
And the current:
A steel-plated ironwood crossbow with a sculpted dragon-head cranequin is a heavy crossbow type weapon.
A steel-plated ironwood crossbow with a sculpted dragon-head cranequin trains the crossbow skill.
The ironwood crossbow is extremely well designed for improving the force of your attacks.
You are certain that the crossbow is inadequately balanced and is not suited for adding attack power from its draw strength.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow is appreciably susceptible to damage, and is in pristine condition.
The ironwood crossbow is made with metal.
It appears that the ironwood crossbow can be slung over one shoulder.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow weighs exactly 150 stones.
You are certain that the ironwood crossbow is worth exactly 13530 Dokoras.
Roundtime: 8 seconds.
>>What's the chance on keeping stat based load reductions? o
If I do that, mathematically crossbows will be inferior to all other weapon types in DR prior to hitting the stat reduction limit. I'm not sure that is desirable.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
If I do that, mathematically crossbows will be inferior to all other weapon types in DR prior to hitting the stat reduction limit. I'm not sure that is desirable.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
Have a fun for ya
The mechanisms appear to have a ductility of 1785573 on the Trader's scale.
The tyrium mechanisms are made with metal.
That was done on 1 for the press
SEND[Naohhi] We'll look into it, but for now, you're making giant errors pop up all over the place on this side. :p
SEND[Naohhi] That means.. please stop.
You have some tiny scratches to the wings.
The mechanisms appear to have a ductility of 1785573 on the Trader's scale.
The tyrium mechanisms are made with metal.
That was done on 1 for the press
SEND[Naohhi] We'll look into it, but for now, you're making giant errors pop up all over the place on this side. :p
SEND[Naohhi] That means.. please stop.
You have some tiny scratches to the wings.
>6). Old crossbow stats were not touched. AT ALL. Any changes to your old crossbows are the result of a bug, or your imagination. They still use the old damage formula too...
This is in prime.
While you may have not directly touched anything directly affecting crossbows. I can confirm that the week shaping released that FOI on crossbows did change.
I have a DSX appraisal on 6/13/15 - The double-stringed crossbow is perfectly designed for improving the force of your attacks.
DSX appraisal on 6/23/15 - The double-stringed crossbow is excellently designed for improving the force of your attacks.
I would have had daily appraisals but I spent the whole 10 days chopping wood and making stuff.
By chance did you expand the FOI appraisal ranges?
This is in prime.
While you may have not directly touched anything directly affecting crossbows. I can confirm that the week shaping released that FOI on crossbows did change.
I have a DSX appraisal on 6/13/15 - The double-stringed crossbow is perfectly designed for improving the force of your attacks.
DSX appraisal on 6/23/15 - The double-stringed crossbow is excellently designed for improving the force of your attacks.
I would have had daily appraisals but I spent the whole 10 days chopping wood and making stuff.
By chance did you expand the FOI appraisal ranges?
He already stated that test apparently still had old code for FoI ranges within the appraisal code, and that it's just a messaging issue. How that applies to prime appraisals is unclear, but my guess is he probably pushed some background stuff live to prime to prepare for release to prime, and either accidentally pushed out the old code or based his changes on the old code rather than the prime code. I assume he is working to correct whatever happened.
The response is somewhere in one of the other multiple crossbow threads about this out there. It's basically just the above first sentence, however, if you don't want to go looking for it.
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The response is somewhere in one of the other multiple crossbow threads about this out there. It's basically just the above first sentence, however, if you don't want to go looking for it.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
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>>By chance did you expand the FOI appraisal ranges?
When shaping released yes, FOI ranges changed a bit.
DRT was a copy of Prime was 9 months ago or so. I pushed hundreds of changes out to it, but probably missed a few things. Only human after all...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
When shaping released yes, FOI ranges changed a bit.
DRT was a copy of Prime was 9 months ago or so. I pushed hundreds of changes out to it, but probably missed a few things. Only human after all...
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
>>DR-Kodius: When shaping released yes, FOI ranges changed a bit.
On all weapons or just crossbows?
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
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On all weapons or just crossbows?
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
