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>>Let's please not go down this road again. Lacking 5 skills in a tert skillset isn't going to make a dent in your TDP situation. If anything, it's going to make things better, since you won't be wasting time training tert skills when you could be training primary or secondary skills that gain TDPs far faster.
Dart, log into TF and compare tdps from ranks between me (a barb) and Dealvo (a warmage). We both have similar training time in TF and he has over 12000 tdps from ranks more than me as I posted before.
I mean, the last GM post still stated the best way to raise overall BMR was to train the cheapest stat.
Testing does not support that, even allowing for extremely unlikely series of rolls.
So, I was wondering what the current position is on the current BMR, and how to make it better.
I am --- Navak
Testing does not support that, even allowing for extremely unlikely series of rolls.
So, I was wondering what the current position is on the current BMR, and how to make it better.
I am --- Navak
Magic can be trained along with many other things, usually quite well, if you take a look at paladins and rangers who hunt a lot.
Now compare that to lore skills that can be trained well, or even at all, with other skills.
I don't think it is quite so simple as to say people can just go train secondary and primary skills and learn more anyway.
Ease of training a skill is far more important than the skillset.
I am --- Navak
Now compare that to lore skills that can be trained well, or even at all, with other skills.
I don't think it is quite so simple as to say people can just go train secondary and primary skills and learn more anyway.
Ease of training a skill is far more important than the skillset.
I am --- Navak
>Here's the crux of the matter -- are we talking about magic resistance, or magic immunity? Resistance doesn't necessarily mean all or nothing. It's very possible to make it so resistance means the spell's power is cut by 10, 20, 50, 90%. Or to use your own example, if a mage and barb of exactly equal power clash, what's the point of having magic if it cannot be used? I think we need to quit thinking of MR in terms of absolutes (all or nothing), and consider that maybe there are states in-between somewhere that can be made viable. There's no way down the "all or nothing" road that's going to not be totally unfair to one side or the other, all else being equal.
I understand what you're saying, but like I said there are variables in this mix that I do not think are being taken into consideration. This thread has also touched upon ease of training... which means not just circling but tdp's that can be garnered with ease. Then factor in that when a skill is trained with ease, the ratio of each rank to the tdp's gained increases along with it. Rather than counting tdp's, run a compare of total ranks gained vs. tdp's from ranks.
Example:
Prime barb that is not minimally trained by any means... total ranks gained 16585 at present. Totdal TDP's from ranks 20116 For all intents and purposes, 150th circle.
Take a mage that is also not minimal... let's keep it within reason. Because of the nature of magic, that ratio is almost guaranteed to be skewed. Then tack on the fact that it's a primary skill set easily worked doing just about anything else in game, hunting or out.
Tying this in to my original point... the advantage is automatically in the mage's favor in a magic vs. resistance contest for a multitude of reasons that I HOPE are very thoroughly thought through before decisions are made.
I might have the highest BMR in prime. I've got no way to make that claim. But I am not immune to many things. I get lower circled mages MBing me. Spells like frostbite or SD invariably work for anyone near level. The only exception is that I'm harder to hit with target spells.
I am not opposed to changes. I simply want it to be emphasized BEFORE those changes take place that there are deeper considerations that do need to be made if this is to be a balance issue. I consider BMR an ability. Not a replacement to natural limitations. BUT, for any ability to be effective, it has to overreach those natural limitations to enter the realm of "upside" and not leveling factor. Those natural limitations go far beyond simply not learning magic.
I understand what you're saying, but like I said there are variables in this mix that I do not think are being taken into consideration. This thread has also touched upon ease of training... which means not just circling but tdp's that can be garnered with ease. Then factor in that when a skill is trained with ease, the ratio of each rank to the tdp's gained increases along with it. Rather than counting tdp's, run a compare of total ranks gained vs. tdp's from ranks.
Example:
Prime barb that is not minimally trained by any means... total ranks gained 16585 at present. Totdal TDP's from ranks 20116 For all intents and purposes, 150th circle.
Take a mage that is also not minimal... let's keep it within reason. Because of the nature of magic, that ratio is almost guaranteed to be skewed. Then tack on the fact that it's a primary skill set easily worked doing just about anything else in game, hunting or out.
Tying this in to my original point... the advantage is automatically in the mage's favor in a magic vs. resistance contest for a multitude of reasons that I HOPE are very thoroughly thought through before decisions are made.
I might have the highest BMR in prime. I've got no way to make that claim. But I am not immune to many things. I get lower circled mages MBing me. Spells like frostbite or SD invariably work for anyone near level. The only exception is that I'm harder to hit with target spells.
I am not opposed to changes. I simply want it to be emphasized BEFORE those changes take place that there are deeper considerations that do need to be made if this is to be a balance issue. I consider BMR an ability. Not a replacement to natural limitations. BUT, for any ability to be effective, it has to overreach those natural limitations to enter the realm of "upside" and not leveling factor. Those natural limitations go far beyond simply not learning magic.
> No offense, but thats not a realistic comparison to make even in TF. What barb will ever match mentals with a moonmage?
You'd be very surprised. I just did a spot check on all Prime barbarians and moon mages over 80th circle. The results? Average mental per circle were almost identical, probably because so many people are fixated on the diminishing returns after 40 in certain mentals. There was a very clear pattern in how most of these people dealt with mentals. Barbarians tended to have higher charisma, moonies tended to have higher discipline. Both guilds had almost identical int/wis averages. 40 seems to be a popular stopping point.
But that's kind of missing the point again. It doesn't matter what stats the moon mage has where BMR is concerned -- don't confuse magic vs MR contests with stat vs stat contests. Two entirely different things, although the former must be overcome to even have a shot at the latter. The only thing that matters on the MR side are stats, and not just mentals. All stats count. The magic side of the contest involves magic skill and spell difficulty, as well as the type of spell (aoe vs single target, offensive vs beneficial vs general).
The example was to show two exactly evenly matched people at the far extreme of the game. Yes, that is the far extreme, but that's something we have to examine. We have to consider how our systems impact the game from 1 stat point to 99 stat points, and everywhere in between. We have to consider how they impact the game at 0 ranks all the way to 2000 ranks, and everywhere in between. One reason we constantly have to backtrack and redo things is because sometimes we lose sight of that simple truth -- we have to make our systems cover everyone from the moment they step out of the character manager until the day they max out all their stats and skills. If we lose sight of that even for a moment, anything we build is going to eventually fall apart and need to be redone. Examples abound, from situations where we failed to consider what would happen if stats or skills got past a certain point (BMR is a perfect example), or situations where we tried to play catchup with the current skill/stat levels and ended up making things virtually impossible for novices (the instrument rewrite is a perfect example). Think about this -- there was a time when people would probably have told me "No offense, but that's not a realistic comparison to make. What player will ever have 30 in all stats, and 500 ranks in a skill?" If we design the game thinking like that, it's going to keep falling apart and we'll keep going in circles instead of forward. Is it possible that the max stat or max skill might be raised in the future? Sure, it's possible. But at least for now, we have a clearly defined range to work in, and we need to make sure our systems work from one end of that range to the other.
BMR is just one of many systems that simply doesn't fit that criteria. It's imbalanced at both extremes. We need to find a way to change that so that its a viable feature from beginning to end, useful and desirable but not overwhelming at all levels. Not an easy thing to do, but it needs to be done.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
You'd be very surprised. I just did a spot check on all Prime barbarians and moon mages over 80th circle. The results? Average mental per circle were almost identical, probably because so many people are fixated on the diminishing returns after 40 in certain mentals. There was a very clear pattern in how most of these people dealt with mentals. Barbarians tended to have higher charisma, moonies tended to have higher discipline. Both guilds had almost identical int/wis averages. 40 seems to be a popular stopping point.
But that's kind of missing the point again. It doesn't matter what stats the moon mage has where BMR is concerned -- don't confuse magic vs MR contests with stat vs stat contests. Two entirely different things, although the former must be overcome to even have a shot at the latter. The only thing that matters on the MR side are stats, and not just mentals. All stats count. The magic side of the contest involves magic skill and spell difficulty, as well as the type of spell (aoe vs single target, offensive vs beneficial vs general).
The example was to show two exactly evenly matched people at the far extreme of the game. Yes, that is the far extreme, but that's something we have to examine. We have to consider how our systems impact the game from 1 stat point to 99 stat points, and everywhere in between. We have to consider how they impact the game at 0 ranks all the way to 2000 ranks, and everywhere in between. One reason we constantly have to backtrack and redo things is because sometimes we lose sight of that simple truth -- we have to make our systems cover everyone from the moment they step out of the character manager until the day they max out all their stats and skills. If we lose sight of that even for a moment, anything we build is going to eventually fall apart and need to be redone. Examples abound, from situations where we failed to consider what would happen if stats or skills got past a certain point (BMR is a perfect example), or situations where we tried to play catchup with the current skill/stat levels and ended up making things virtually impossible for novices (the instrument rewrite is a perfect example). Think about this -- there was a time when people would probably have told me "No offense, but that's not a realistic comparison to make. What player will ever have 30 in all stats, and 500 ranks in a skill?" If we design the game thinking like that, it's going to keep falling apart and we'll keep going in circles instead of forward. Is it possible that the max stat or max skill might be raised in the future? Sure, it's possible. But at least for now, we have a clearly defined range to work in, and we need to make sure our systems work from one end of that range to the other.
BMR is just one of many systems that simply doesn't fit that criteria. It's imbalanced at both extremes. We need to find a way to change that so that its a viable feature from beginning to end, useful and desirable but not overwhelming at all levels. Not an easy thing to do, but it needs to be done.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
I think BMR should vary on spell type. If it is beneficial, high/max resistence, if it is a physical attack (lb) lower lever resistence and if it is an attack on the mind an illusion and the like, then Max resistence.
By resist everything I hope you mean small motes when ever the mage tries to cast. Is this so?
I also think that a barb coming into a room with BOT active, should have a % chance of nulifying it, atleast for him presonally. The matrix has to be there to hold the spell, and he should try resisting the matrix targeting/effecting him.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
By resist everything I hope you mean small motes when ever the mage tries to cast. Is this so?
I also think that a barb coming into a room with BOT active, should have a % chance of nulifying it, atleast for him presonally. The matrix has to be there to hold the spell, and he should try resisting the matrix targeting/effecting him.
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss
>>By resist everything I hope you mean small motes when ever the mage tries to cast. Is this so?
That would be functional immunity again, which is what they're trying to address. Resistance can/should also mean reduced function.
Example: A while back Soim (90+ Thief) wanted to fight something in the Zaulfung, and needed Protection From Evil active. So he found a Cleric (probably 30-ish, maybe lower) in Riverhaven. The Cleric cast the largest PFE he could at Soim - a cast that would last 15 minutes or more on the Cleric himself. On Soim, the spell faded before he was able to get from the city to the swamp, less than 2 minutes later.
There probably should be a point - depending on the differences between caster and target - where the amount of mana needed to land a spell is higher than the mage could successfully cast, but general immunity as a default state of being isn't the sort of resistance that they're going for in DR.
Killing you softly with his song,
- Stormsinger Shavay
Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "Hey, is there room in your head for one more?"
That would be functional immunity again, which is what they're trying to address. Resistance can/should also mean reduced function.
Example: A while back Soim (90+ Thief) wanted to fight something in the Zaulfung, and needed Protection From Evil active. So he found a Cleric (probably 30-ish, maybe lower) in Riverhaven. The Cleric cast the largest PFE he could at Soim - a cast that would last 15 minutes or more on the Cleric himself. On Soim, the spell faded before he was able to get from the city to the swamp, less than 2 minutes later.
There probably should be a point - depending on the differences between caster and target - where the amount of mana needed to land a spell is higher than the mage could successfully cast, but general immunity as a default state of being isn't the sort of resistance that they're going for in DR.
Killing you softly with his song,
- Stormsinger Shavay
Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "Hey, is there room in your head for one more?"
>>But that's kind of missing the point again. It doesn't matter what stats the moon mage has where BMR is concerned -- don't confuse magic vs MR contests with stat vs stat contests. Two entirely different things, although the former must be overcome to even have a shot at the latter.
Maybe I haven't been clear in summing up my point. When you say BMR is overpowered and needs to be rebalanced, I take that as meaning you think its broken in its entirety in favor of the barbarian. I'm aware that its broken in the way it affects some spells (re TM spells) and agree it needs to be rebalanced overall (at low levels its worthless). My main point is that its broken in the opposite direction against other spells (re FRB/MB in favor of the caster). So when I hear BMR is getting downsized and no mention of its shortcomings versus other spells I get a little worried we'll be shafted on both ends.
I've seen it posted before by a GM that the stat contest against MB was being skewed in favor of the caster by their PM in an unwanted way so maybe thats why you're getting different results. I'm not trying to be GvsG here but in my world FRB and MB are just as broken as BMR (proved by players and GMs alike).
Maybe I haven't been clear in summing up my point. When you say BMR is overpowered and needs to be rebalanced, I take that as meaning you think its broken in its entirety in favor of the barbarian. I'm aware that its broken in the way it affects some spells (re TM spells) and agree it needs to be rebalanced overall (at low levels its worthless). My main point is that its broken in the opposite direction against other spells (re FRB/MB in favor of the caster). So when I hear BMR is getting downsized and no mention of its shortcomings versus other spells I get a little worried we'll be shafted on both ends.
I've seen it posted before by a GM that the stat contest against MB was being skewed in favor of the caster by their PM in an unwanted way so maybe thats why you're getting different results. I'm not trying to be GvsG here but in my world FRB and MB are just as broken as BMR (proved by players and GMs alike).
>>Dart just acknowledged that FRB was overpowered. The second cast of MB definitely seems overpowered to me, the first cast to a lesser degree. Also, BMR on the low end is due for an uptweak. This was all discussed already.
I'll let it go when its fixed. Its been "discussed" for years and no one ever did anything about it. Any cast of MB is broken if the stat contest is broken. Whats wrong? Don't like discussions about your broken abilities? I wouldn't want my agenda train sidetracked either...
I'll let it go when its fixed. Its been "discussed" for years and no one ever did anything about it. Any cast of MB is broken if the stat contest is broken. Whats wrong? Don't like discussions about your broken abilities? I wouldn't want my agenda train sidetracked either...
>Any cast of MB is broken if the stat contest is broken. Whats wrong? Don't like discussions about your broken abilities?
That isn't the case at all. If you followed the boards more you'd see I'm pretty honest about things. Off the top of my head: MB is overpowered, especially on the second cast, high level MM PP is out of line with other magic guilds, snap cast TM seems too effective at high levels, and I'll throw in a new one - dazzle is too easy to stack. I also argued that the new watch was too powerful even though that change massively benefited my character (although less so post tweak).
This isn't about me having an agenda. I feel like you're disrupting the discussion by refusing to acknowledge GM statements and established facts.
That isn't the case at all. If you followed the boards more you'd see I'm pretty honest about things. Off the top of my head: MB is overpowered, especially on the second cast, high level MM PP is out of line with other magic guilds, snap cast TM seems too effective at high levels, and I'll throw in a new one - dazzle is too easy to stack. I also argued that the new watch was too powerful even though that change massively benefited my character (although less so post tweak).
This isn't about me having an agenda. I feel like you're disrupting the discussion by refusing to acknowledge GM statements and established facts.
> I take that as meaning you think its broken in its entirety in favor of the barbarian.
I think I've been very clear that I think it's broken on both extremes. Against Barbarians on the low end, against casters on the high end, and against other NMUs from start to finish. In short, it doesn't work for anyone. There's no realistic way to balance a system that has three separate groups that need to be balanced and viable, especially when one group (BMR) is basically another (MR) tripled. This is even more unrealistic when you consider that the criteria that go into the two primary calculations (magic vs MR) have absolutely no relationship or common scaling -- magic skill, spell difficulty, and spell type in no way correlates to stats, yet that's exactly what we try to do with MR.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
I think I've been very clear that I think it's broken on both extremes. Against Barbarians on the low end, against casters on the high end, and against other NMUs from start to finish. In short, it doesn't work for anyone. There's no realistic way to balance a system that has three separate groups that need to be balanced and viable, especially when one group (BMR) is basically another (MR) tripled. This is even more unrealistic when you consider that the criteria that go into the two primary calculations (magic vs MR) have absolutely no relationship or common scaling -- magic skill, spell difficulty, and spell type in no way correlates to stats, yet that's exactly what we try to do with MR.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
> Any cast of MB is broken if the stat contest is broken.
Guys, this is moving farther and farther away from discussing barbarian issues. Stat contests and the penalties involved from status effects were nerfed well over a year ago, and MB took a fairly huge hit at that time. Is it still too effective? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The ability to push it to the higher win levels was substantially reduced from what it had been, but this really isn't the time or place for that discussion. This is about barbarian magic resistance and how to make it work fairly for everyone, not about what else might be overpowered or underpowered.
FRB is a different situation altogether. After a certain skill level, it becomes something akin to swatting a fly with a tactical nuke, and is yet another example of a system that doesn't appear to have been designed with higher skill levels in mind. We're looking at it. I won't promise any changes, but we are looking at it.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
Guys, this is moving farther and farther away from discussing barbarian issues. Stat contests and the penalties involved from status effects were nerfed well over a year ago, and MB took a fairly huge hit at that time. Is it still too effective? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The ability to push it to the higher win levels was substantially reduced from what it had been, but this really isn't the time or place for that discussion. This is about barbarian magic resistance and how to make it work fairly for everyone, not about what else might be overpowered or underpowered.
FRB is a different situation altogether. After a certain skill level, it becomes something akin to swatting a fly with a tactical nuke, and is yet another example of a system that doesn't appear to have been designed with higher skill levels in mind. We're looking at it. I won't promise any changes, but we are looking at it.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
>BMR is just one of many systems that simply doesn't fit that criteria. It's imbalanced at both extremes. We need to find a way to change that so that its a viable feature from beginning to end, useful and desirable but not overwhelming at all levels. Not an easy thing to do, but it needs to be done.
With no intent to oversimplify or be myopic.... BMR for a novice means very little unless someone wants to start pvping at circle 1. Just like a 1st circle mage can do very little damage with fire shard.
It is the mid to high end that the calculations for these stats really start to come into play when we're talking about BMR. It's also where skill levels begin to differentiate. Where tdp allocation begins to differentiate. You catch my drift.
The fundamental question, and this goes back to what I said yesterday, is how to view BMR philosophically if all things are equal because to me, THAT is where we define its place in DR. Let's take a contested spell. Let's say for one second that we have a contest between a barb and mage in which the mage would just be able to cast successfully... because equal power vs. resistance always seems to go in favor of the mage. To me, what defines BMR is that those moments should keep the barb safe, no questions asked.
To me this is not just a question of numbers, it's very near to a metaphysical discussion on what BMR is supposed to be in the world of Elanthia. It turns fights into skill vs. skill... which would USUALLY favor the barbarian because they're supposed to, barring a few exceptions of super characters, be the masters of weapon to weapon combat. Before anyone says, "Well that takes away the offensive capabilities of a mage, which is what they are supposed to thrive with", bear one thing in mind... I can't prep BMR and inflict pain on you with it. It's purely a defensive measure that can, and does, work against us in some circumstances as much as for us. Buffs can come on both ends. Magic is overwhelming in its power compared to equal ranks of a weapon if the mage is trained for the same situation AT THE LATER STAGES... the time at which BMR and magic come into their own.
Only after that determination can we begin to examine the scales of where numbers should fall. Where damage is reduced vs. overcome. If BMR is changing, it means we do need to redefine what it is, and everything we conceived about it in the past is mostly cast aside.
I understand the need. I am not so biased as to say barbarians should be invincible. Call it fear. Call it suspicion. Call it skepticism. Call it agreeing with the idea that Elanthia is "mage realms". While the definition of BMR really should be a discussion, there are certain aspects that I feel must be taken into account while the numbers are being determined. This list is not exhaustive... just what comes to mind at the moment.
1) First and foremost, it's a lot easier to raise magic skill than to raise BMR if the mage so chooses. Equal circle doesn't mean equal strength. "Level ground" needs to be evaluated on more than just stats or skills because we are talking about a set of skills that can cause serious damage vs. an ability that is purely defensive in nature.
2) I go back again to my comment about rank to tdp from rank ratio. Not only is a skillset taken from us, but ease of training on the high end makes an enormous impact on the available amount of tdp's to pump into stats. This is not a complaint... but based on the nature of this discussion, it can't be ignored.
3) As stated, remember that I can't put a hurt on someone cause I have BMR. Just protect myself. It still can't protect me against a well trained mage with well chosen skills. My character has a lot of weaknesses to exploit. Just like I can take advantage of others' holes... there are variables outside of this contest that do even the playing field. Bottom line... I don't think it's justifiable to be beat down by a mage who's trained PM to 1000 and TM in areas where weapon learning was capped 200 ranks earlier but has nothing else going for him.
4) I think that at the end of the day, part of BMR's definition should mark it as an ABILITY, not a compensation. Abilities go beyond evening out due to other shortcomings. Maybe that has a little bias to it, but I don't think it's extreme. Nor do I believe it should be an extreme "beyond". Nevertheless, it should be a beyond. If someone really wants to object with this philosophy, consider it a tradeoff for not being able to utilize the positive aspects of not having magic in one's life with regards to stacking and cooperating with those of other guilds to make one an even more capable an individual. CJ's. etc.
5) For the sake of game playability, yes we have to start treating certain types of spells differently. Personally, I think bard enchantes should skip barbarians entirely. We don't get the pluses or minuses. I can't venture how to handle room resistance, but we tip the scales a lot more than any other guild. If it's possible, just flat take us out. Keep any type of magic bonus, even if it helps us, off limits. Keep CJ's out of the equation. Two exceptions being healing and anything that happens while being a corpse. Justification: empathy is not a magic skill. I consider it a biological contact in which one's pain is taken away. Magic only comes into play when the empath is healing himself/herself. And... corpses are dead. They shouldn't resist anything (careful you sickos out there).
Again where we go with all this is directly related to the core question... what is BMR in the long run. I think that's all I have for now.
See... I can post constructively.
Edgee
With no intent to oversimplify or be myopic.... BMR for a novice means very little unless someone wants to start pvping at circle 1. Just like a 1st circle mage can do very little damage with fire shard.
It is the mid to high end that the calculations for these stats really start to come into play when we're talking about BMR. It's also where skill levels begin to differentiate. Where tdp allocation begins to differentiate. You catch my drift.
The fundamental question, and this goes back to what I said yesterday, is how to view BMR philosophically if all things are equal because to me, THAT is where we define its place in DR. Let's take a contested spell. Let's say for one second that we have a contest between a barb and mage in which the mage would just be able to cast successfully... because equal power vs. resistance always seems to go in favor of the mage. To me, what defines BMR is that those moments should keep the barb safe, no questions asked.
To me this is not just a question of numbers, it's very near to a metaphysical discussion on what BMR is supposed to be in the world of Elanthia. It turns fights into skill vs. skill... which would USUALLY favor the barbarian because they're supposed to, barring a few exceptions of super characters, be the masters of weapon to weapon combat. Before anyone says, "Well that takes away the offensive capabilities of a mage, which is what they are supposed to thrive with", bear one thing in mind... I can't prep BMR and inflict pain on you with it. It's purely a defensive measure that can, and does, work against us in some circumstances as much as for us. Buffs can come on both ends. Magic is overwhelming in its power compared to equal ranks of a weapon if the mage is trained for the same situation AT THE LATER STAGES... the time at which BMR and magic come into their own.
Only after that determination can we begin to examine the scales of where numbers should fall. Where damage is reduced vs. overcome. If BMR is changing, it means we do need to redefine what it is, and everything we conceived about it in the past is mostly cast aside.
I understand the need. I am not so biased as to say barbarians should be invincible. Call it fear. Call it suspicion. Call it skepticism. Call it agreeing with the idea that Elanthia is "mage realms". While the definition of BMR really should be a discussion, there are certain aspects that I feel must be taken into account while the numbers are being determined. This list is not exhaustive... just what comes to mind at the moment.
1) First and foremost, it's a lot easier to raise magic skill than to raise BMR if the mage so chooses. Equal circle doesn't mean equal strength. "Level ground" needs to be evaluated on more than just stats or skills because we are talking about a set of skills that can cause serious damage vs. an ability that is purely defensive in nature.
2) I go back again to my comment about rank to tdp from rank ratio. Not only is a skillset taken from us, but ease of training on the high end makes an enormous impact on the available amount of tdp's to pump into stats. This is not a complaint... but based on the nature of this discussion, it can't be ignored.
3) As stated, remember that I can't put a hurt on someone cause I have BMR. Just protect myself. It still can't protect me against a well trained mage with well chosen skills. My character has a lot of weaknesses to exploit. Just like I can take advantage of others' holes... there are variables outside of this contest that do even the playing field. Bottom line... I don't think it's justifiable to be beat down by a mage who's trained PM to 1000 and TM in areas where weapon learning was capped 200 ranks earlier but has nothing else going for him.
4) I think that at the end of the day, part of BMR's definition should mark it as an ABILITY, not a compensation. Abilities go beyond evening out due to other shortcomings. Maybe that has a little bias to it, but I don't think it's extreme. Nor do I believe it should be an extreme "beyond". Nevertheless, it should be a beyond. If someone really wants to object with this philosophy, consider it a tradeoff for not being able to utilize the positive aspects of not having magic in one's life with regards to stacking and cooperating with those of other guilds to make one an even more capable an individual. CJ's. etc.
5) For the sake of game playability, yes we have to start treating certain types of spells differently. Personally, I think bard enchantes should skip barbarians entirely. We don't get the pluses or minuses. I can't venture how to handle room resistance, but we tip the scales a lot more than any other guild. If it's possible, just flat take us out. Keep any type of magic bonus, even if it helps us, off limits. Keep CJ's out of the equation. Two exceptions being healing and anything that happens while being a corpse. Justification: empathy is not a magic skill. I consider it a biological contact in which one's pain is taken away. Magic only comes into play when the empath is healing himself/herself. And... corpses are dead. They shouldn't resist anything (careful you sickos out there).
Again where we go with all this is directly related to the core question... what is BMR in the long run. I think that's all I have for now.
See... I can post constructively.
Edgee
1) Maybe
2) You're Joking? maybe you're not 25 primary skills. 21 secondary skills we're not talking about sensability because how you train or the lack of training is an option not a limitation in the primary and secondary case. Saying you are missing out on 5 tert skillset worth of TDPS is sorta made up by the primary skills.
3)You can't learn TM in a area that is capped at 200 to 1000. Bit of an exaggeration of the fact. BMR is defenses but add it on top of roars/dances/zerks which are offensive you are gaining a total defense to magic then the ability to lessen mundane offenses. Skill should come into play for magical defense not just stats and circle. BMR lesses my 60 prep spell to 10 barb still would need enough evasion to dodge it. If your defenses are less then 1000 TM then you shouldn't win the contest. Being a barb does not equal don't need to dodge TM.
4) I do think you're a bit bias but i'm bias as well. I do play a barb have actively worked one and learned the system. I do have a ranger who is in the upper circles, yet in the same case I can take a look at the situation and go "wow that is wrong" and understand its wrong no matter if its an ABILITY or Magic Defense. Barbs have few shortcomings.
5) I can agree with the healing and clerical help. The other stuff I don't have a clue on besides magic shouldn't be exclusive based on guild.
Seroiusly if it was an ability... it would be useable like khri sane to raise a extra defense for 20 minutes use some concentration while meditating on disrupting magic and then drop. (I don't cast for a downtime 30 seconds 1 minute) To me that is an ability. I'm not fighting to lose BMR that is the only way i can see it working so that Magic Resistance for other NMU can work and still have barbs get their slice of cake. Instead of 2 systems with one getting a short end of the stick.
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
2) You're Joking? maybe you're not 25 primary skills. 21 secondary skills we're not talking about sensability because how you train or the lack of training is an option not a limitation in the primary and secondary case. Saying you are missing out on 5 tert skillset worth of TDPS is sorta made up by the primary skills.
3)You can't learn TM in a area that is capped at 200 to 1000. Bit of an exaggeration of the fact. BMR is defenses but add it on top of roars/dances/zerks which are offensive you are gaining a total defense to magic then the ability to lessen mundane offenses. Skill should come into play for magical defense not just stats and circle. BMR lesses my 60 prep spell to 10 barb still would need enough evasion to dodge it. If your defenses are less then 1000 TM then you shouldn't win the contest. Being a barb does not equal don't need to dodge TM.
4) I do think you're a bit bias but i'm bias as well. I do play a barb have actively worked one and learned the system. I do have a ranger who is in the upper circles, yet in the same case I can take a look at the situation and go "wow that is wrong" and understand its wrong no matter if its an ABILITY or Magic Defense. Barbs have few shortcomings.
5) I can agree with the healing and clerical help. The other stuff I don't have a clue on besides magic shouldn't be exclusive based on guild.
Seroiusly if it was an ability... it would be useable like khri sane to raise a extra defense for 20 minutes use some concentration while meditating on disrupting magic and then drop. (I don't cast for a downtime 30 seconds 1 minute) To me that is an ability. I'm not fighting to lose BMR that is the only way i can see it working so that Magic Resistance for other NMU can work and still have barbs get their slice of cake. Instead of 2 systems with one getting a short end of the stick.
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
>>Elanthia is "mage realms".
Those darn Moon Mages keep beating you to the top end creatures? For Shame.
Player of Gilart
Everything written by this poster is non-guaranteed, use or accept at your own risk. All information is accessed from posters limited brain power unless log is provided.
Those darn Moon Mages keep beating you to the top end creatures? For Shame.
Player of Gilart
Everything written by this poster is non-guaranteed, use or accept at your own risk. All information is accessed from posters limited brain power unless log is provided.
I would just like to say it is great to see staff coming to this folder and asking players who really know what Barbarians are, and how skills for us work, about changes they have made, or want to make, work for them. If you have not played a Barb for many years OR have the time to sit and sift through every single spell, ability, item, yadda yadda, IG you really cannot have a clue how all things work for ANY single guild. So thanks!
>>You're Joking? maybe you're not 25 primary skills. 21 secondary skills we're not talking about sensability because how you train or the lack of training is an option not a limitation in the primary and secondary case. Saying you are missing out on 5 tert skillset worth of TDPS is sorta made up by the primary skills.
No, just stop. It isn't. You clearly not grasping how to train effectively.
It isn't about WHICH skillset you are apart of - it is about which skills are easiest to train IN CONJUNCTION with your other skills. (read this slowly and at least 2 or 3 times)
Here's a news flash for you - I can't train all 25 weapons and hope to circle in this life time. Sorry, not possible in Prime.
The reason why folks with access to magic have an easier time at gaining TDPs is because magic can generally be trained concurrently WITH various combats, lores and survivals.
Just to help you REALLY get the picture.
I can keep about 20 skills moving at all times. Of them, only 3 are weapons that must be trained individually (read: not MO, parry, brawling, etc)
Let me further explain...
MO, Parry, Brawling and OH are all byproducts of either learning my defenses or swinging ANY weapon. It takes little to no extra effort to garner ranks for those skills outside of my daily routine.
So with my training I'm looking at (counting things other than skills like backstab/astrology/empathy)
ARMOR: 5/8 (shield, leather, hc, hp, lp)
LORE: 4/9 (mech, app, scholarship, vocals)
SURVIVAL: 6/13 (hide, stalk, evasion, FA, perc, skin)
WEAPON: 7/24 (MO, Parry, brawling, OH, ME, LB, HT)
MAGIC: 0/5(and yet at least 3 of these would weave in so easily with any combat script)
Last I checked there wasn't a single thing on my list that you or anyone else aside from thieves couldn't do. Traders don't count cause seeing a Trader in combat is ultra rare. Now imagine training all those - and adding 5 more easily. There could be 2039283729 weapons skills or survival skills and it still wouldn't change a thing if the skills couldn't be easily trained in conjunction with each other.
When I add another weapon into the mix my time to circle skyrockets. I need only point to folks like Tropicalo (original) to show you how easy it is to weave in magic with your combats.
The outcry that "Oh well you have 20+ skills that are primary" is a load of crap. I'm sorry. It is. In the never ending rat race that is DR if I wish to keep pace with those in my bracket I can't be training staff sling, both crossbows, each blade and blunt.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
No, just stop. It isn't. You clearly not grasping how to train effectively.
It isn't about WHICH skillset you are apart of - it is about which skills are easiest to train IN CONJUNCTION with your other skills. (read this slowly and at least 2 or 3 times)
Here's a news flash for you - I can't train all 25 weapons and hope to circle in this life time. Sorry, not possible in Prime.
The reason why folks with access to magic have an easier time at gaining TDPs is because magic can generally be trained concurrently WITH various combats, lores and survivals.
Just to help you REALLY get the picture.
I can keep about 20 skills moving at all times. Of them, only 3 are weapons that must be trained individually (read: not MO, parry, brawling, etc)
Let me further explain...
MO, Parry, Brawling and OH are all byproducts of either learning my defenses or swinging ANY weapon. It takes little to no extra effort to garner ranks for those skills outside of my daily routine.
So with my training I'm looking at (counting things other than skills like backstab/astrology/empathy)
ARMOR: 5/8 (shield, leather, hc, hp, lp)
LORE: 4/9 (mech, app, scholarship, vocals)
SURVIVAL: 6/13 (hide, stalk, evasion, FA, perc, skin)
WEAPON: 7/24 (MO, Parry, brawling, OH, ME, LB, HT)
MAGIC: 0/5(and yet at least 3 of these would weave in so easily with any combat script)
Last I checked there wasn't a single thing on my list that you or anyone else aside from thieves couldn't do. Traders don't count cause seeing a Trader in combat is ultra rare. Now imagine training all those - and adding 5 more easily. There could be 2039283729 weapons skills or survival skills and it still wouldn't change a thing if the skills couldn't be easily trained in conjunction with each other.
When I add another weapon into the mix my time to circle skyrockets. I need only point to folks like Tropicalo (original) to show you how easy it is to weave in magic with your combats.
The outcry that "Oh well you have 20+ skills that are primary" is a load of crap. I'm sorry. It is. In the never ending rat race that is DR if I wish to keep pace with those in my bracket I can't be training staff sling, both crossbows, each blade and blunt.
-Galren Moonskin
!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.
Galren, explaining won't really help much. I think some people noticed that there was a BMR "nerf" discussion and instantly, they started thinking, "Now's the perfect time to let it all out!!!1", and then they go to great lengths to try to make very poor points.
Dart knows that BMR needs fixing on lower and higher levels. I'm sure he'll do what is necessary, and regardless, I feel like in the end, we'll be cool.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
Dart knows that BMR needs fixing on lower and higher levels. I'm sure he'll do what is necessary, and regardless, I feel like in the end, we'll be cool.
Vinjince
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."
- Sima Yi
>>The fundamental question, and this goes back to what I said yesterday, is how to view BMR philosophically if all things are equal because to me, THAT is where we define its place in DR. Let's take a contested spell. Let's say for one second that we have a contest between a barb and mage in which the mage would just be able to cast successfully... because equal power vs. resistance always seems to go in favor of the mage. To me, what defines BMR is that those moments should keep the barb safe, no questions asked.
>>To me this is not just a question of numbers, it's very near to a metaphysical discussion on what BMR is supposed to be in the world of Elanthia. It turns fights into skill vs. skill... which would USUALLY favor the barbarian because they're supposed to, barring a few exceptions of super characters, be the masters of weapon to weapon combat. Before anyone says, "Well that takes away the offensive capabilities of a mage, which is what they are supposed to thrive with", bear one thing in mind... I can't prep BMR and inflict pain on you with it. It's purely a defensive measure that can, and does, work against us in some circumstances as much as for us. Buffs can come on both ends. Magic is overwhelming in its power compared to equal ranks of a weapon if the mage is trained for the same situation AT THE LATER STAGES... the time at which BMR and magic come into their own.
It is very simple, not liking an answer does not mean that the answer was not provided. It is obvious that you want BMR to be the end all be all of defences. It will not be that way. Your skills and stats will have to be used in resisting that spell of doom heading your way. To put it simple if he/she crushes you it is not a problem with MR you are just not good enough.
>>1) First and foremost, it's a lot easier to raise magic skill than to raise BMR if the mage so chooses. Equal circle doesn't mean equal strength. "Level ground" needs to be evaluated on more than just stats or skills because we are talking about a set of skills that can cause serious damage vs. an ability that is purely defensive in nature.
Yes except for the fact that the Dart has said that this is not how it works and I tend to trust more the one who can see the game code.
>>3) As stated, remember that I can't put a hurt on someone cause I have BMR. Just protect myself. It still can't protect me against a well trained mage with well chosen skills. My character has a lot of weaknesses to exploit. Just like I can take advantage of others' holes... there are variables outside of this contest that do even the playing field. Bottom line... I don't think it's justifiable to be beat down by a mage who's trained PM to 1000 and TM in areas where weapon learning was capped 200 ranks earlier but has nothing else going for him.
This just proves that you don't know anything about Targeted Magic, that is all I will say.
>>4) I think that at the end of the day, part of BMR's definition should mark it as an ABILITY, not a compensation. Abilities go beyond evening out due to other shortcomings. Maybe that has a little bias to it, but I don't think it's extreme. Nor do I believe it should be an extreme "beyond". Nevertheless, it should be a beyond. If someone really wants to object with this philosophy, consider it a tradeoff for not being able to utilize the positive aspects of not having magic in one's life with regards to stacking and cooperating with those of other guilds to make one an even more capable an individual. CJ's. etc.
Well let's see this non-ability ability is a passive, debuff against everyone that casts spells at you.
>>5) For the sake of game playability, yes we have to start treating certain types of spells differently. Personally, I think bard enchantes should skip barbarians entirely. We don't get the pluses or minuses. I can't venture how to handle room resistance, but we tip the scales a lot more than any other guild. If it's possible, just flat take us out. Keep any type of magic bonus, even if it helps us, off limits. Keep CJ's out of the equation. Two exceptions being healing and anything that happens while being a corpse. Justification: empathy is not a magic skill. I consider it a biological contact in which one's pain is taken away. Magic only comes into play when the empath is healing himself/herself. And... corpses are dead. They shouldn't resist anything (careful you sickos out there).
Sounds good and I'll be the first to say that Bards should be immune to physical weapons as well as roars. It is inconvenient when I'm killed and I don't think that it should happen, ever.
---Thya Telle
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
>>To me this is not just a question of numbers, it's very near to a metaphysical discussion on what BMR is supposed to be in the world of Elanthia. It turns fights into skill vs. skill... which would USUALLY favor the barbarian because they're supposed to, barring a few exceptions of super characters, be the masters of weapon to weapon combat. Before anyone says, "Well that takes away the offensive capabilities of a mage, which is what they are supposed to thrive with", bear one thing in mind... I can't prep BMR and inflict pain on you with it. It's purely a defensive measure that can, and does, work against us in some circumstances as much as for us. Buffs can come on both ends. Magic is overwhelming in its power compared to equal ranks of a weapon if the mage is trained for the same situation AT THE LATER STAGES... the time at which BMR and magic come into their own.
It is very simple, not liking an answer does not mean that the answer was not provided. It is obvious that you want BMR to be the end all be all of defences. It will not be that way. Your skills and stats will have to be used in resisting that spell of doom heading your way. To put it simple if he/she crushes you it is not a problem with MR you are just not good enough.
>>1) First and foremost, it's a lot easier to raise magic skill than to raise BMR if the mage so chooses. Equal circle doesn't mean equal strength. "Level ground" needs to be evaluated on more than just stats or skills because we are talking about a set of skills that can cause serious damage vs. an ability that is purely defensive in nature.
Yes except for the fact that the Dart has said that this is not how it works and I tend to trust more the one who can see the game code.
>>3) As stated, remember that I can't put a hurt on someone cause I have BMR. Just protect myself. It still can't protect me against a well trained mage with well chosen skills. My character has a lot of weaknesses to exploit. Just like I can take advantage of others' holes... there are variables outside of this contest that do even the playing field. Bottom line... I don't think it's justifiable to be beat down by a mage who's trained PM to 1000 and TM in areas where weapon learning was capped 200 ranks earlier but has nothing else going for him.
This just proves that you don't know anything about Targeted Magic, that is all I will say.
>>4) I think that at the end of the day, part of BMR's definition should mark it as an ABILITY, not a compensation. Abilities go beyond evening out due to other shortcomings. Maybe that has a little bias to it, but I don't think it's extreme. Nor do I believe it should be an extreme "beyond". Nevertheless, it should be a beyond. If someone really wants to object with this philosophy, consider it a tradeoff for not being able to utilize the positive aspects of not having magic in one's life with regards to stacking and cooperating with those of other guilds to make one an even more capable an individual. CJ's. etc.
Well let's see this non-ability ability is a passive, debuff against everyone that casts spells at you.
>>5) For the sake of game playability, yes we have to start treating certain types of spells differently. Personally, I think bard enchantes should skip barbarians entirely. We don't get the pluses or minuses. I can't venture how to handle room resistance, but we tip the scales a lot more than any other guild. If it's possible, just flat take us out. Keep any type of magic bonus, even if it helps us, off limits. Keep CJ's out of the equation. Two exceptions being healing and anything that happens while being a corpse. Justification: empathy is not a magic skill. I consider it a biological contact in which one's pain is taken away. Magic only comes into play when the empath is healing himself/herself. And... corpses are dead. They shouldn't resist anything (careful you sickos out there).
Sounds good and I'll be the first to say that Bards should be immune to physical weapons as well as roars. It is inconvenient when I'm killed and I don't think that it should happen, ever.
---Thya Telle
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
>>3)You can't learn TM in a area that is capped at 200 to 1000. Bit of an exaggeration of the fact.<<
DAE83, try reading what he is saying a little more carefully. He said a mage could learn TM to 1000 in an area where normal weapons capped 200 ranks earlier (that would be 800), not at 200. This is a fact.
Juulmon
DAE83, try reading what he is saying a little more carefully. He said a mage could learn TM to 1000 in an area where normal weapons capped 200 ranks earlier (that would be 800), not at 200. This is a fact.
Juulmon
I think most people could care less. In six years of DR I have only casted spells at a Barbarian maybe twice, and it was at the request of said Barbarian. Hell if Barbs could Gate I would be one.
Player of Gilart
Everything written by this poster is non-guaranteed, use or accept at your own risk. All information is accessed from posters limited brain power unless log is provided.
Player of Gilart
Everything written by this poster is non-guaranteed, use or accept at your own risk. All information is accessed from posters limited brain power unless log is provided.
> With no intent to oversimplify or be myopic.... BMR for a novice means very little unless someone wants to start pvping at circle 1
Okay, we can stop right there. This may be news to some people, but there's more to the game than PvP, and far more to design decisions than just that. We also have to consider the impact of MR on hunting and day to day life. Do we want low circle folks with no magical defenses completely vulnerable to magic? Do we want casters unable to cast on critters because MR is too high to overcome? What about the impact of MR on the DR community and the ability for players to work together instead of against each others? I don't even want to think about the amount of angst created and time wasted for both players and staff over PvP issues stemming from accidental IF hits under the old system, nor the number of bug reports generated. There's far far more to this than just who can kill better.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
Okay, we can stop right there. This may be news to some people, but there's more to the game than PvP, and far more to design decisions than just that. We also have to consider the impact of MR on hunting and day to day life. Do we want low circle folks with no magical defenses completely vulnerable to magic? Do we want casters unable to cast on critters because MR is too high to overcome? What about the impact of MR on the DR community and the ability for players to work together instead of against each others? I don't even want to think about the amount of angst created and time wasted for both players and staff over PvP issues stemming from accidental IF hits under the old system, nor the number of bug reports generated. There's far far more to this than just who can kill better.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
>>He said a mage could learn TM to 1000 in an area where normal weapons capped 200 ranks earlier (that would be 800), not at 200. This is a fact.
I am not sure this is a fact anymore, I was under the impression targetting bodyparts no longer yielded experience beyond what a weapon caps at.
Player of Gilart
Everything written by this poster is non-guaranteed, use or accept at your own risk. All information is accessed from posters limited brain power unless log is provided.
I am not sure this is a fact anymore, I was under the impression targetting bodyparts no longer yielded experience beyond what a weapon caps at.
Player of Gilart
Everything written by this poster is non-guaranteed, use or accept at your own risk. All information is accessed from posters limited brain power unless log is provided.
>>I am not sure this is a fact anymore, I was under the impression targetting bodyparts no longer yielded experience beyond what a weapon caps at.
Its a fact. Just like I recently capped hiding in caracals at 587 ranks. They stop teaching weapons at what? 360?
>>I seem to remember the results of a cross-guild empirical study indicating that nobody has an inherant TDP advantage.
Do I need to repeat myself a third time? I have over 12000 overall weapon ranks and 6000+ overall survival ranks and I am still blown away by a similarly trained warmage.
>>Okay, we can stop right there. This may be news to some people, but there's more to the game than PvP, and far more to design decisions than just that. We also have to consider the impact of MR on hunting and day to day life. Do we want low circle folks with no magical defenses completely vulnerable to magic?
I think you missed his point. <> With no intent to oversimplify or be myopic.... BMR for a novice means very little unless someone wants to start pvping at circle 1<> I took this as meaning there are no creatures that a novice would be in that use magic anyways.
Its a fact. Just like I recently capped hiding in caracals at 587 ranks. They stop teaching weapons at what? 360?
>>I seem to remember the results of a cross-guild empirical study indicating that nobody has an inherant TDP advantage.
Do I need to repeat myself a third time? I have over 12000 overall weapon ranks and 6000+ overall survival ranks and I am still blown away by a similarly trained warmage.
>>Okay, we can stop right there. This may be news to some people, but there's more to the game than PvP, and far more to design decisions than just that. We also have to consider the impact of MR on hunting and day to day life. Do we want low circle folks with no magical defenses completely vulnerable to magic?
I think you missed his point. <> With no intent to oversimplify or be myopic.... BMR for a novice means very little unless someone wants to start pvping at circle 1<> I took this as meaning there are no creatures that a novice would be in that use magic anyways.
<<The outcry that "Oh well you have 20+ skills that are primary" is a load of crap. I'm sorry. It is. In the never ending rat race that is DR if I wish to keep pace with those in my bracket I can't be training staff sling, both crossbows, each blade and blunt.>>
So your defense is.... it's time consuming to train more then what you do now. So by that principal alone you are choosing not to gain TDPs you can gain, and complain about TPD's you could have if you could use magic.
You are trying to keep up with others is probably tha fallicy of your arugment. Yet I'll be clear how you train is how you train what you choose not to do is also a choice you are making. 5 Tert skillets aren't keeping you from extra TDP's your conception that you have the most effeicient way to train possible is.
SO in combat you can only learn 22 skills well darn, i'm so sorry for you. I hope you do do the other things outside of combat that would gain you TDPs. The argument in itself that 3 magic is crippling your tdp count is still weak.
Please don't get upset this is just my position on the argument. You can say I don't get it but I do. If i was looking to get as many TDPs as possible and circle fast as possible then I'd probably be in the same position. Since my barb is moving at a decent pace for me, I dont feel obligated to get all in a huff about extra TDPs he gets because he ranks weapons pretty fast for my liking.
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
> >>Elanthia is "mage realms".
The irony here being:
NMUs: 33.4 %
Magic Terts: 16.0%
Magic Secondaries: 17.2%
Magic Primaries: 33.2%
From general observations from repeat checks over the past couple of weeks, warmies, barbarians, thieves, and rangers are almost always the top 4 guilds, population-wise, with thieves usually in the top spot. Ironic that only one of the top four is a magic primary, one is magic tert, and the other two are NMUs. Makes one question the validity of "mage realms".
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
The irony here being:
NMUs: 33.4 %
Magic Terts: 16.0%
Magic Secondaries: 17.2%
Magic Primaries: 33.2%
From general observations from repeat checks over the past couple of weeks, warmies, barbarians, thieves, and rangers are almost always the top 4 guilds, population-wise, with thieves usually in the top spot. Ironic that only one of the top four is a magic primary, one is magic tert, and the other two are NMUs. Makes one question the validity of "mage realms".
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
> Traders don't count cause seeing a Trader in combat is ultra rare.
And yet are armor secondary and have armor reqs throughout their career. Don't dismiss traders out of hand.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
And yet are armor secondary and have armor reqs throughout their career. Don't dismiss traders out of hand.
- GM Dartenian
"So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled that thing
That couldn't be done and he did it."
- Edgar Guest
<<So your defense is.... it's time consuming to train more then what you do now. So by that principal alone you are choosing not to gain TDPs you can gain, and complain about TPD's you could have if you could use magic.
You cannot keep all weapons skills locked in combat at once. It is very easy to train magics while training other things. By this logic, magic TDPs can be gained at a much faster rate than weapon TDPs.
I hate restating what people have already said but apparently you need repetition to retain information.
<<You are trying to keep up with others is probably tha fallicy of your arugment.
That's weird, I thought it was the crux of the argument.
<<5 Tert skillets aren't keeping you from extra TDP's your conception that you have the most effeicient way to train possible is.
I'm pretty sure efficiency is a desireable thing. If you want to waste time, go ahead and knock yourself out. However the fact still stands that magic guilds have the most efficient TDP earning.
<<SO in combat you can only learn 22 skills well darn, i'm so sorry for you.
Let me know when you manage to lock 22 skills in combat at once.
<<You can say I don't get it but I do.
No you don't.
You cannot keep all weapons skills locked in combat at once. It is very easy to train magics while training other things. By this logic, magic TDPs can be gained at a much faster rate than weapon TDPs.
I hate restating what people have already said but apparently you need repetition to retain information.
<<You are trying to keep up with others is probably tha fallicy of your arugment.
That's weird, I thought it was the crux of the argument.
<<5 Tert skillets aren't keeping you from extra TDP's your conception that you have the most effeicient way to train possible is.
I'm pretty sure efficiency is a desireable thing. If you want to waste time, go ahead and knock yourself out. However the fact still stands that magic guilds have the most efficient TDP earning.
<<SO in combat you can only learn 22 skills well darn, i'm so sorry for you.
Let me know when you manage to lock 22 skills in combat at once.
<<You can say I don't get it but I do.
No you don't.
<<DAE83, try reading what he is saying a little more carefully. He said a mage could learn TM to 1000 in an area where normal weapons capped 200 ranks earlier (that would be 800), not at 200. This is a fact.>>
I can admit I probably misread something. If I did sorry for the the comment. I personally have never had this happen.
<<Its a fact. Just like I recently capped hiding in caracals at 587 ranks. They stop teaching weapons at what? 360?>>
Hiding is not TM or a offensive skill. Creatures perception is independant from combat skills last I knew. Germish'din have horrid perception for how much they teach, gryphons teach super well and are way harder to hide on then their combat abilites.
"So like I said, don't take it personally. All cultures have their share of fools. It's just that we always felt yours had a lot more than ours."
~~Warrior Mage Guild Leader Senfrislor, The Prydaen in Their Own Words~~
Scary as it sounds, Galren and Vin pretty much had the interpretations dead on, so there's very little I need to respond to except to confirm.
Mage realms was not a reference to population numbers.
Point about efficiently trained concurrent skills was perfectly restated.
Point about being circle 1 and not facing anything in which magic comes into place was also what I intended to convey. Except if a 1st circle barb intentionally goes to fight a mage. Last I recall, rats didn't cast DO a la adan'f.
Never once said BMR should be the be-all end-all of DR defense. Don't know where that came from.
I think the problem in some of this evaluation Dart is that you're looking at numbers a little too much and veering away from how the game is actually played out in terms of how the numbers got to where they are. This is in no way a stab at your intention or ability, but the whole point of my post was to accomplish 2 things:
*State that the first issue needing to be determined is the raw philosophical definition of BMR.
*Look at the process of how numbers come to where they are, what they mean beyond their direct impact... i.e. many of the points restated by Galren. Take into account HOW they get there and their significance. I'll add another comment... not only is it an issue of concurrent training, but high end training. Rank to tdp ratio. I rank from 1000 to 1001 in PM while doing other things, I get 5 tdp's. If I really expect to train 22 weapons, what are the chances that they are all above 300 at once... which means 1-2 tdp's per rank and those ranks aren't coming fast when you split the hunting time that thinly. Only 1 or 2 barbs have the dedication to make that their goal, and BMR isn't their motivation I suspect.
Dart... use rationality to see past coding and follow through the steps of character development from the angles of people who are actually training through the game's realistic, functional mechanics.
Before decisions are made, I will be committed to shining attention to the fact that there's game in theory and game in reality. It happens in real life too. The difference is that you have the power to design the game knowing reality and not theory, whereas people of the real world have too many personal agendas to care about reality. In a way I'm offering you a vote of confidence in all this.
Mage realms was not a reference to population numbers.
Point about efficiently trained concurrent skills was perfectly restated.
Point about being circle 1 and not facing anything in which magic comes into place was also what I intended to convey. Except if a 1st circle barb intentionally goes to fight a mage. Last I recall, rats didn't cast DO a la adan'f.
Never once said BMR should be the be-all end-all of DR defense. Don't know where that came from.
I think the problem in some of this evaluation Dart is that you're looking at numbers a little too much and veering away from how the game is actually played out in terms of how the numbers got to where they are. This is in no way a stab at your intention or ability, but the whole point of my post was to accomplish 2 things:
*State that the first issue needing to be determined is the raw philosophical definition of BMR.
*Look at the process of how numbers come to where they are, what they mean beyond their direct impact... i.e. many of the points restated by Galren. Take into account HOW they get there and their significance. I'll add another comment... not only is it an issue of concurrent training, but high end training. Rank to tdp ratio. I rank from 1000 to 1001 in PM while doing other things, I get 5 tdp's. If I really expect to train 22 weapons, what are the chances that they are all above 300 at once... which means 1-2 tdp's per rank and those ranks aren't coming fast when you split the hunting time that thinly. Only 1 or 2 barbs have the dedication to make that their goal, and BMR isn't their motivation I suspect.
Dart... use rationality to see past coding and follow through the steps of character development from the angles of people who are actually training through the game's realistic, functional mechanics.
Before decisions are made, I will be committed to shining attention to the fact that there's game in theory and game in reality. It happens in real life too. The difference is that you have the power to design the game knowing reality and not theory, whereas people of the real world have too many personal agendas to care about reality. In a way I'm offering you a vote of confidence in all this.
