Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/12/2015 03:36 PM CDT
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Taking a slightly different track in thinking about roleplaying a Bard, I was going through the in-game lore from various books in the libraries to look at the presentation of Bards in-game. Some of this stuff is old, old, old, and reflects earlier presentations of Bards and I don't think should be a strict guide moving forward.

What I thought would be interested would be to survey Bards and see to the extent these archetypes resonant with current players.

Source: Bardic Life (https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Bardic_Life_(book))

Archetypes:
The Historian
History is this Bard's life. She has studied it extensively, but most importantly, she will tell you about it; either through her storytelling or through her songs. This Bard's work is rich in Elanthian history, and therefore plays a vital role in our society. Listeners can't help but learn a bit more about the world they reside in after she's taken her bow.
The Warrior
This Bard is wise in the way of battle. Many people believe that Bards know nothing about fighting and such, but little do they know that all Bards have a bit of the Warrior in them. Fraught with a violent history, Bards have learned the ways of weapons in order to save themselves from persecution; the Warrior Bard takes this a step further and thrives on it. When she does stop hunting long enough for an ale and a song or two, her music is ripe with tales of battle, and the heroes that war has made.
The Jester
The Jester lives to entertain his audiences, whether it's by telling jokes, singing a bawdy tune or performing backflips for his audience. He can't resist making a joke out of everyday occurrences, and will make up ditties on the spot in order to coax a smile or three from the people around him. Although not cruel in nature, almost nothing is too sacred for a humorous twist for this Bard.
The Romantic
Songs of lost love, unrequited love, first love or any other kind of love pour forth from this Bard. Anything that has to do with the affairs of the heart can be the Romantic Bard's subject. Often called upon to sing and perform at weddings because of the poignant nature of their work, they are also popular at the local taverns, where sad songs and ale go hand in hand. They tend to be sensitive in nature, only hunting when required and spending most of their time perfecting their craft.
The Wanderer
The Wanderer is the explorer of the Bards. Always restless, he is uncomfortable with staying in one place for any length of time. Quick to follow the urge to move on, he tends to spend a lot of time alone unless he can find someone who shares his wanderlust and is willing to leave for the next town on the spur of the moment. The Wanderer's performances are filled with the wonders of nature and the lay of the lands. He will often sing odes to the cities he has visited, or perhaps his favorite tavern. He may tell stories of why the river runs or of how the mountains came to be... but all are sure to entertain his audience.
The Performer
Although most Bards perform (such is the way of a Bard) the Performer relishes the opportunity to do so. Great thought and care are given to the presentation and content of her performance, all geared towards the enjoyment of her audience. In fact, this Bard rarely needs a formal stage -- she gives performances as a matter of course in her daily life. Usually melodramatic in nature and always entertaining, the Performer lives to be the center of attention.
The Connoisseur
This Bard is the jack of all trades of Bards. Drawing from all the other aspects, the Connoisseur can be heard telling the history of the Guild, hunting with zest, singing an amusing tune or two, crooning a love song, roaming the countryside or just giving her all in a performance. Although not with the depth that can be found in those that have chosen to concentrate on a single aspect of the Bardic life. This Bard is happy knowing a little of a lot of things, never really specializing her talents in any one direction.


Says something about early roleplaying of Bards that Jester, Romantic, and Performer are split out.

Source: Remembering the Bardic Voice, Volume I (https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Remembering_the_Bardic_Voice,_Volume_I_(book))

Hey, what would it take to get another volume of this? We only have the first and fourth released.

I'm cutting this down for space.

The Dancing of The Flames
Aptly called The Dancing of the Flames, this is a much more perilous tradition than the mere lighting of a candle. After several people were seriously burned by falling amongst the burning oil lanterns, towns that practice this celebration required that the 'Dancer' be a Guilded Bard or Gypsy trained in the ways of dancing. Very few have been burned since these regulations came to pass, since both group's inherent gifts and training lent them a nimbleness that few others possess.


This seems cool but I've never seen much of an in-game reference to it beyond the Volume. Is this ever performed in-game? Are there other holidays and ceremonies where Bards play a role? Festival items that mention The Dancing of the Flames?

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Story Circles
Bardic participation in story circles is not an essential requirement, but one that almost universally accepted without question. Having learned the old ballads from their fellow guild members, we can always be counted upon to provide another story or epic even into the early hours before dawn breaks upon a weary group of revelers. Always welcome are our new tales from foreign lands, and our seemingly never-ending supply of exotic drinks that some bring with them to these gatherings.
Keep in mind, however, that traditional tales can vary from town to town, valley to valley. Names get misspelled, switched, places forgotten and substituted for others, and often parts are misunderstood. It is the responsibility of the Bard in these instances to provide the 'true tale,' the one closest to the events that had originally taken place and was preserved in the Bardic lore. This isn't always greeted with enthusiasm, but rare is the group that doesn't listen in with curiosity when a Bard says, 'This is what really took place.'
[/table]

Roleplaying as a part of performance. I think some race groups meeting involve this, the Rakash used to when I participated.

Source: Remembering the Bardic Voice, Volume IV (https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Remembering_the_Bardic_Voice,_Volume_IV_(book))

This one had some odd ones ...

Standard Bearing
The standard bearers of an army do just what the title describes -- they bear the pennants, flags and standards for the ruler or cause that they represent. More than this, they also are responsible for improving and holding high the morale of their comrades in arms. To this end I have heard, even sung on occasion, stirring renditions of national anthems, battle hymns, and even one or two rousing rounds of "The Tavernkeep and His Lady" to keep the laughter flowing among the squads. Well into the night while the camp prepares for a scant few hours of rest one can usually find a bard or two instilling some much-needed confidence into the troops.
However, the role of a bardic standard bearer is not one limited to boosting soldier morale during the late hours of night. The bard must continue to do so even during the long days of battle, rousing the troops not only with song and ballad but with magic as well. The simplest of enchantes, when raising the strength of an entire army, can turn the tide of a war. However, this power must be tempered with wisdom as well. Should the bards of opposing armies not use their full repertoire of enchantes and instead sing the most aggressive ones at their disposal, the results can be cataclysmic. In this manner the infamous "Rage of the Clans" gained its name, for in the midst of a clan war armed with bards on both sides, such bloodshed was seen that was unheard of for centuries before. There were no winners in that battle, so total was the loss to both lands. Perhaps a better name for it might have been "Blood of the Clans," for that is one that it truly earned.


This seemed to be trying to take the idea of Bards as a support-role and scaling it up for an entire army and thinking about what role that would look like.

Herbalist
Without the empathic gifts of a guilded healer, one must rely on knowledge and skill in their stead. Seek out the extensive libraries inside each of your guildhalls or, whenever possible, those of your kindred who have already devoted their time to the alchemical arts. From these people and tomes you can learn ways to heal wounds in ways that may rival the speed of empathic healers, and do not depend on one's own strength and endurance to work. Such tinctures and salves made in this manner may also be passed on to others, and a single jar can save the wounds of many from infection, rather than one.
This is not to say that a bard's magic can be of no help when they seek to aid another. For the steadfast herbalist the simplest of Lilt's can be used to speed an entire infirmary on its way to recovery, easing the pain of wounds to the point where the patient's own relaxed posture can better aid their own healing. Such work is tireless and thankless, and the sight of so many wounds has driven many a stir-crazy bard to abandon their playing in favor of attempting to tend to the wounds on their own, but this is folly. A simple set of bones in one hand, and a bottle of healing unguent in the other can work wonders if the bard has the patience to utilize them.


More of a stretch. We have one healing spell, but we're weak on healing in magic by design. We're survival tertiary so the Outdoorsmanship for foraging isn't a focus. Sure Alchemy is a Lore skill but Empaths, even outside of magic, have always been presented as the herbalists, alchemists, etc. Just an odd one.

So in summary:

* Lore, Non-Performance *

The Historian

* Lore, Performance *
The Jester
The Romantic
The Performer
Dancing of the Flames
Story Circles

* Combat *
The Warrior
The Standard Bearer

* Other *
The Wanderer
The Connoisseur
The Herbalist

Here are some areas I think are missing:

The Luthier/Craftsman (Instrument making, this being on hold until the crafting system gets here, if ever.)
The Courtier (Some sort of combination of linguistics, historian, spy, etc. Not sure if this really fits, but seems like something throwing out as an idea.)

Others that I'm less sure how to define:

The Wanderer + The Historian: The Geographer? The Explorer? (Thinking the Cartographer title?)
Bardic manipulation of Air and Water: The Navigator?
The Art Historian/Art Critic (Borrowing from Raven's Court and the titles)
Some sort of Archaeologist, Curator (Borrowing from the titles, since these are Lore-focused professions).

The Standard Bearer is a neat way to put a Bardic spin on battle and combat. Are there other ideas?

Here's a challenge. Take away Tactics, where the the idea of a Battle Bard is defined, and Performance, which is clearly a relevant Bard skill, and Crafting, which has a link to instrument creation and makes sense, are there aspects to Appraisal and Scholarship that introduce archetypes for Bards? Either existing systems or things that could fit through roleplaying?
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/12/2015 04:09 PM CDT
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Personally, my bard is a Historian/Warrior/Tactician. I would just love to put her Tactics to use in large-scale battles -- of course this is a dream that may not come to pass, at least not for a long time.

She is also editor of the local newsletter, which is another aspect of lore and bringing knowledge to the people. Current events are what becomes history, after all.

>>[The Dancing of the Flames] seems cool but I've never seen much of an in-game reference to it beyond the Volume. Is this ever performed in-game?

Yes! There was a Bard-themed festival a LONG time ago that introduced this, and everyone got to try their hand at performing it (including non-bards). I believe it has been revived at least once. I'd love to see it come back, or other unique performances.

>>This seemed to be trying to take the idea of Bards as a support-role and scaling it up for an entire army and thinking about what role that would look like.

I always found that book pretty interesting. I like the idea of war bards, personally, and the effects they could have on large groups. I think the herbalist idea is interesting too. I don't personally do alchemy, but I've taken it upon myself to have some basic remedies so that if someone falls down at my feet, I can instantly put up Lilt and start shoving remedies down their throat.

If you're interested in Bardic roles, you may want to search out some of Raesh's posts on the Heritages. It was his idea to create three Heritages we could join (like sects): Songsworn, Lore-keepers, and Performers.

- Navesi
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/12/2015 07:00 PM CDT
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Bardbarian, through and through. My melee mastery is actually higher than my performance, and my missile mastery isn't far off.

Why sing songs about someone else's great deeds when you can sing songs about your own?
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/12/2015 07:51 PM CDT
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>>If you're interested in Bardic roles, you may want to search out some of Raesh's posts on the Heritages. It was his idea to create three Heritages we could join (like sects): Songsworn, Lore-keepers, and Performers.

I remember those, and I was trying to structure some of the ideas to reflect those three Heritages: Combat, Lore, and Performance.

If you imagine this like categories and sub-categories, I wonder if you could get more specific archetypes.

Like .....

Combat:
- Standard Bearer
- Warrior
- Swordsinger (the idea that you're primarily an edged weapon plus tactics and magical backup)
- Nightmare? (Bard who's primarily role in combat is the various Debilitation spells)
- ???
- ???

Performance
- Dancer
- Jester
- Performer
- Story teller
- Acrobat?
- ???

Lore
- Crafting
- Luthier
- Alchemist
- Enchanting? (I need to go back and read about the planned overview for enchanting)
- Historian
- Geographer?
- Archaeologist?
- Art Curator?
- Something with Magical Devices?
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/13/2015 09:41 AM CDT
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Always looked at my bard attempts as a mix of past historian and modern day chronicler(meddler?), trying to stir events into what will one day prove to be an epic ballad full of danger, excitement, romance, and intrigue. Wish there was a deeper political system that bards could interact with that shapes alliances between the provinces.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/13/2015 05:42 PM CDT
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<Wish there was a deeper political system that bards could interact with that shapes alliances between the provinces.

Yeah, more of a political system would give Bards more to do with rumors, linguistics (Aura of Tongues could be useful!), performance, etc.

I don't know, maybe some areas that require passports to get into that have a system of requirements, but Bards are better able to manipulate? Traders too probably.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/13/2015 05:55 PM CDT
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<Wish there was a deeper political system that bards could interact with that shapes alliances between the provinces.

>Yeah, more of a political system would give Bards more to do with rumors, linguistics (Aura of Tongues could be useful!), performance, etc.

These are all things that don't require a more robust system, but it does require participation in events either directly or tangentially (at least at the minimum if you want to use the rumor system for this purpose).

TL;DR Get involved in Events.

~Evike
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/13/2015 09:04 PM CDT
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>These are all things that don't require a more robust system, but it does require participation in events either directly or tangentially (at least at the minimum if you want to use the rumor system for this purpose).

But that's the point. If the system depends on participation by PCs, it's not really a system that accurately reflects the ability of Bards to shape/influence elite opinion.

Not to downplay Events. But just saying you could have a Bard roleplaying her ass off and it doesn't mean the outcome reflects their abilities of Charisma, performance, manipulation, etc.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 01:01 AM CDT
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>> But that's the point. If the system depends on participation by PCs, it's not really a system that accurately reflects the ability of Bards to shape/influence elite opinion.

This is so absurdly wrong...

>> Not to downplay Events. But just saying you could have a Bard roleplaying her ass off and it doesn't mean the outcome reflects their abilities of Charisma, performance, manipulation, etc.

A bard who can charm, perform, and manipulate beyond the constrains of mechanics is quite simply amazing to behold. It's absolutely powerful and can shape the game more then any mechanic can. And... how the hell is anyone supposed to code for that?

And lol, if you are only impressing NPCs with your charisma... ? What?

If you consistently RP and actually have charisma, performance skills, and manipulation, you can actually create quite a stage for yourself. Within Elanthia politics and within smaller societies. You really need to rethink your strategy!
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 06:28 AM CDT
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>>>> But that's the point. If the system depends on participation by PCs, it's not really a system that accurately reflects the ability of Bards to shape/influence elite opinion.

>>This is so absurdly wrong...

LOLZ, Why?
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 09:15 AM CDT
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>A bard who can charm, perform, and manipulate beyond the constrains of mechanics is quite simply amazing to behold. It's absolutely powerful and can shape the game more then any mechanic can. And... how the hell is anyone supposed to code for that?

I... really disagree with you.

I think the desire to have a game system in place for some sort of political (on any scale) interface is a good idea. Think of Traders - currently, Caraamon can be a better trader than actual traders simply by virtue of being a great weaponsmith and not being an idiot with the selling of his merchandise. What's the point of being a Trader if there isn't a system in place to support... being a trader?

Same too with bards (though less drastically stated) - Charisma should do more than be involved in Charm/Spirit vs. checks. It should be used in things like playing a crowd, some kind of diplomacy system (running messages and advising nobles!) etc.

>If you consistently RP and actually have charisma, performance skills, and manipulation, you can actually create quite a stage for yourself. Within Elanthia politics and within smaller societies. You really need to rethink your strategy!

You're making an argument for abolishing stats and turning DR into a LARP event. You're forgetting that mental stats are actually a thing. Plenty of people with low Intelligence, Wisdom, or Discipline are perfectly adept typists who make very well articulated arguments, arguments that are perhaps not very fitting for someone with sub-20 Int/Wis/Disc. Maybe we shouldn't let people argue on the Gweths unless they've got a certain set of mentals?
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 11:39 AM CDT
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>>some kind of diplomacy system (running messages and advising nobles!) etc.

I've got to admit... this would be pretty amazing.

- Navesi
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 01:22 PM CDT
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I'm saying the Charisma stat doesn't automatically make you "charismatic." You can be successful and change Elanthian RP w/o high charisma, performance, or any of the above. You can also be a successful trader without actually being a trader.

Sometimes RP can transcend mechanics. I don't see anything wrong with this and works especially well with charisma.

Sure... I suppose they could code up a politics system that used performing skill, charisma, etc, to influence the way things work. But, I would totally disagree with that because

If instead they coded up the same political system that allowed players to use their "actual" RP skills, (convincing players to vote for them, politics, etc.) I would 1000% be okay with that.

My mindset is almost always RP follows mechanics, but with "charisma", "roleplay", and "talking", mechanics should follow the RP.



Unless of course you want the King of Elanthia to be Raikage. Cause his 115 charisma would likely trump everyone. (No idea if he has 115 charisma.)
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 08:57 PM CDT
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>I'm saying the Charisma stat doesn't automatically make you "charismatic." You can be successful and change Elanthian RP w/o high charisma, performance, or any of the above. You can also be a successful trader without actually being a trader.

And I'm saying that's part of the problem.

>If instead they coded up the same political system that allowed players to use their "actual" RP skills, (convincing players to vote for them, politics, etc.) I would 1000% be okay with that.

Your logic is effectively making Charisma a meaningless stat. It's a fine position to take, but it's not one I particularly agree with.

Maybe I want to RP my character as the strongest barbarian in the land! I can talk a pretty mean talk, so, my barbarian is the strongest in the land! Look at his muscles, his sinew, his washboard abs! Why should stats affect my RP?
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 10:44 PM CDT
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Politics, intrigue, and the like demand interaction on a creative level. Going out and hitting a monster or player does not, unless playing in a purely MOO environment. Role play (i.e. creating a backstory and using mutual interactions with other characters to develop a story from that point forward) cannot be coded. Tools for use in role play can be coded, but if a tool is limiting role play by imposing mechanical limitations on role play then it ceases to be role play, and just becomes a gaming system. E.g. Rumours are a role play tool. They don't apply any limitations on player interactions, and in fact serve to enhance and and provide opportunity for interaction. Forcing people to train Charisma if they want to hold any sort of official position imposes a limit on people's ability to role play.

<<Your logic is effectively making Charisma a meaningless stat.

Your logic is completely ignoring all of the mechanical benefits that Charisma already has.

<<Maybe I want to RP my character as the strongest barbarian in the land! I can talk a pretty mean talk, so, my barbarian is the strongest in the land! Look at his muscles, his sinew, his washboard abs! Why should stats affect my RP?

Go ahead. When people see that you can't push the boulder to the Gate of the Souls out of the way with your 10 strength then they can role play by laughing at how your character is completely out of touch with reality. Role play does not need numbers.



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 10:50 PM CDT
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Mechanics and story need to be married to create coherent roleplay, particularly in a MUD like this. Let's not act like the two are mutually exclusive somehow.

There are absolutely ways to mechanically support the notion of Bards (or anyone; Bards are hardly the ones with a monopoly on being influential) as performers, schemers, or politicians. The rumors system is one such way, and there are totally ways that the Charisma stat could play a role there if someone so chose.

That said, there is probably frightfully little interest in actually doing so because it becomes an ROI thing, as well as an issue of whether it's something CE GMs want to bother needing to account for when creating events. (The answer is probably no.)



Thayet
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 11:10 PM CDT
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<<Mechanics and story need to be married to create coherent roleplay, particularly in a MUD like this. Let's not act like the two are mutually exclusive somehow.
<<There are absolutely ways to mechanically support the notion of Bards (or anyone; Bards are hardly the ones with a monopoly on being influential) as performers, schemers, or politicians. The rumors system is one such way, and there are totally ways that the Charisma stat could play a role there if someone so chose.

Right. Nothing about this causes a limitation of any sort.

A political system that required a build up and maintenance of a 'prestige' stat in order to participate at various levels, for example however... I would not go for that at all, even if it were applied across all guilds with no preferential access. This would be an example of a mechanic that limits role play instead of providing open opportunity for it.



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/17/2015 11:41 PM CDT
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I'm thinking more of a prestige system that affected access to certain resources such as merchants, exclusive bars, mining or lumberjacking areas, faster travel over certain bottlenecks, etc.

That's how you support that sort of thing. But it'd be a huge project for not a lot of return, and would probably be regarded as stepping on the toes of both events and premium.



Thayet
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 03:01 AM CDT
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>> That's how you support that sort of thing. But it'd be a huge project for not a lot of return, and would probably be regarded as stepping on the toes of both events and premium.

Aye, i think if there was a big push for political stuff, I'd rather see it go through events. aka Lyras. But I'm pretty sure they swore off massive Lyras events. (But maybe enough time has passed all the GMS have forgot the massive amount of work it was and they will try again. hahaha.)
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 06:07 AM CDT
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>>Aye, i think if there was a big push for political stuff, I'd rather see it go through events. aka Lyras. But I'm pretty sure they swore off massive Lyras events. (But maybe enough time has passed all the GMS have forgot the massive amount of work it was and they will try again. hahaha.)

Considering that we've done events that were as large and complex as the Lyras events (as well as ones that took more direct GM hours to run) multiple times since I've been on staff, and several just since I've been Events Lead, I can safely say that no, we've not sworn them off, and no, it's not an issue of enough time passing that staff forget how much work they are :) I certainly remember all of the events that were so intensive that I or other eventing GMs ended up sick for awhile after we wrapped them up!

Yes, that is a thing that happens sometimes -- though we're starting to grow again, our Events Team has been sort of small for a long while now, so anything big we do necessitates that we put in a really huge chunk of time, even though GMs from other Teams do lend hands -- but no, it's not a ploy for sympathy and it doesn't stop us from doing events like that, it just means every event can't be like that. Plus having every event be huge would get boring really fast and kill any specialness big events might otherwise have.

The Lyras events (and these others I'm referencing) weren't significantly politics heavy as far as events go, though, and having a big push for large increases in complex political events is not very likely. We do, and aren't likely to stop doing, tons of events that include elements of the ruling governments and other political intrigues, but by and large, major governmental characters and functions are intended to be behind the scenes, felt more often by proxy than direct interaction.

There will not be political voting, for instance, because DragonRealms' setting is not one where there are any governments that have any real democratic components. Systems where players could mechanically influence governments/politics via mechanical 'advising tasks' and such likewise don't really fit the setting. The Adventuring class is comparatively small, and the average government not only has its own advisers and spies in spades, but also isn't really made up of the sort that on a day to day basis would be willing to risk the safety of their subjects (or their own power bases) by listening to just any convincing sounding person with a good smile and a really earnest approach. That is one part of why the influence that players of any guild can have on politics is simulated through eventing (and the Rumor system!) instead.

However -- that's not to say that systems that reflect Charisma (or performance, or fill-in-the blank of your choice) are bad or wrong or can never be expanded upon/newly developed. In fact, Ricinus is finishing something up that fits this bill right now, if memory serves. But, specific 'political influence' mechanics are really not something that I think I would ever support if they came up in proposals. Tangential things more in line with the place the Rumor system holds, those I could possibly support. Ideas for more broad 'social influence' or 'strings pulling' mechanics in line with haggling, current justice system interactions, or how Traders can access many of other guilds' guild-specific shops I could support depending on their other merits. I echo Evike's encouragement to get involved in events, though, if politics specifically is your thing. Also just because events can be fun!

Off the top of my head, currently released systems that use Charisma include (I'm only focusing on what applies to Bards here and I'll very likely be leaving tons out since I don't muck in this area as much as I do in others):

Justice (stuff like the ability to avoid capture when wanted for crimes and a guard is in the room with you, getting out of the stocks faster, reducing fines when arrested and convicted)
Teaching (both as a teacher and student)
Getting lower prices when haggling in shops
Bardic Recall
Voice Throws
Bardic Bluffs
Bardic Screams (Pretty sure this one still applies. Raesh or Evike could set me straight otherwise.)
Spirit, Charm, and Fear contests
Successful ACCUSE NECROMANCY (whether true or false) and successfully avoiding false accusations yourself
Spirit Health pool size (especially nice against those spirit draining Cleric spells -- just ask anyone who fought the Akul'tiz)

Some of the above might help you guys target your ideas towards more of the areas/scope of where staff feels Charisma and the like fit in for influence-type mechanics abilities. I'm not saying that to limit you at all, but sometimes idea submissions feel less futile when everyone is working with the same basic framework.

-Persida
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 06:36 AM CDT
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I'm sorry - if the impression that anyone got from what I was saying was that I was claiming Charisma has no utility in game presently, that was not what I was trying to convey at all. I was responding to BRYCOLE83 who was claiming that all Charisma related RP should be effectively statless. I was at no point suggesting that I actually think Charisma is an empty stat.

>Politics, intrigue, and the like demand interaction on a creative level.

They don't need to be. The Rumor system for example could be expanded to function on Charisma. The trading system could be expanded. Performance could be expanded. A politics mechanism could be added.

>Go ahead. When people see that you can't push the boulder to the Gate of the Souls out of the way with your 10 strength then they can role play by laughing at how your character is completely out of touch with reality. Role play does not need numbers.

I trust you recognize then that the same thing could potentially be applied to a charisma based system - your character tries to play a flashy song, but doesn't have the Charisma to pull off flashy. Your character tries to haggle with a shopkeeper, and the shopkeeper just laughs at you. Your character tries to convince a guard that you didn't do it, you were framed (!) but they lock you up anyway.

Your notion of 'in game reality' here is defined by what systems exist. The entire purpose of this conversation is underlining that other systems, built around charisma, could be interesting and part of the game as well.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 06:40 AM CDT
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>A political system that required a build up and maintenance of a 'prestige' stat in order to participate at various levels, for example however... I would not go for that at all, even if it were applied across all guilds with no preferential access. This would be an example of a mechanic that limits role play instead of providing open opportunity for it.

This is the same 'if I can't be best at it it's not worth doing it' argument that gets thrown around a lot in DR. Such a system could so very easily be tons and tons of fun for lots of people, even if they never got to the point of being the King of Elanthia's most trusted adviser or whatever.

I think if anything, adding a system that enforced that most adventurers aren't going to be rubbing elbows with high nobility, but instead, maybe lucky to have the captain of the guards attention for a couple of minutes, would be a good thing. You (you know, you all) are not special snowflakes.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 06:48 AM CDT
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Being able to hobnob your way into the retinue of various noble houses, with various benefits, would be kind of neat. You're not going to become head of House Magen or anything but I don't see why allowing people to effectively become extremely low-ranked servants/staff of suchandsuch house by performing tasks for them or bringing them gifts or that sort of thing would be so bad. Bards and maybe some others could get an edge to this.

I get that nobility is supposed to be a behind-the-scenes thing but at the moment it frequently feels like they're too removed from things, to the point that very, very few PCs have any reason to care about what happens to random nobles because there is simply little to no engagement with the community. They're not visible parts of the game world. There ought to be a way for people to get invested in that sort of thing. Prestige and allegiance-based systems would be one way.



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 07:49 AM CDT
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>I get that nobility is supposed to be a behind-the-scenes thing but at the moment it frequently feels like they're too removed from things, to the point that very, very few PCs have any reason to care about what happens to random nobles because there is simply little to no engagement with the community. They're not visible parts of the game world. There ought to be a way for people to get invested in that sort of thing. Prestige and allegiance-based systems would be one way.


This. I have almost zero idea about any of the in game politics and political entities. I know Therengia has some kind of Duke, or something, and I think Prince Vorclaff was involved in beating up Lyras, but by in large the average adventurer has next to zero interaction with the politics of the various provinces. Adding a charisma based mechanic for interfacing with it could be interesting.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 01:04 PM CDT
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<<I think if anything, adding a system that enforced that most adventurers aren't going to be rubbing elbows with high nobility, but instead, maybe lucky to have the captain of the guards attention for a couple of minutes, would be a good thing.

Neat? Sure. Accessible, no.

<<You (you know, you all) are not special snowflakes.

Yup, just the ones able to script their way through the system the best.

Codifying something that should be purely interactions is not good. Period.

<<I trust you recognize then that the same thing could potentially be applied to a charisma based system - your character tries to play a flashy song, but doesn't have the Charisma to pull off flashy. Your character tries to haggle with a shopkeeper, and the shopkeeper just laughs at you. Your character tries to convince a guard that you didn't do it, you were framed (!) but they lock you up anyway.

Yes. This is not a political system coded to limit access to participation based on how many times you successfully flirted with a bartender.

<<<<>A political system that required a build up and maintenance of a 'prestige' stat in order to participate at various levels, for example however... I would not go for that at all, even if it were applied across all guilds with no preferential access. This would be an example of a mechanic that limits role play instead of providing open opportunity for it.

<<This is the same 'if I can't be best at it it's not worth doing it' argument that gets thrown around a lot in DR. Such a system could so very easily be tons and tons of fun for lots of people, even if they never got to the point of being the King of Elanthia's most trusted adviser or whatever.

Yeah, requiring someone who just wants to interact with a GM run character to create a mutual storyline would be so much fun for people because they first have to do task y for x number of times within timeframe z or risk losing it in order to move up to step b where they have to repeat it all x * s + r number of times to reach step c and so on until finally reaching step q and being allowed to converse with that person. Isn't role play fun!



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 05:08 PM CDT
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That isn't what people are suggesting though. Such a system wouldn't replace events, it would supplement and support them and give more PCs the ability to feel as though they're invested in some fashion in the world by providing a framework through which they may begin to interact with various important organizations, as well as providing an in-game means through which GMs may release information about things like the various noble houses. Your hostility leads me to believe that perhaps you're confused about the nature of the suggestion so I hope this helps clarify.



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 05:17 PM CDT
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<<This isn't what people are suggesting.

Yes, it is.

<<I think if anything, adding a system that enforced that most adventurers aren't going to be rubbing elbows with high nobility, but instead, maybe lucky to have the captain of the guards attention for a couple of minutes, would be a good thing. You (you know, you all) are not special snowflakes.

This is what I am responding to. I'm all for rumour system similar stuff, which I have stated several times now do not limit role play.



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 05:20 PM CDT
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I'm not reading that statement in the same way you appear to be reading it. That seems to jive with what other event GMs have said about PCs not holding powerful positions (at least not anymore) and not having constant easy access to rulers and their court. I think DR could definitely use some in-game reinforcement of the social position that guilded adventurers are supposed to hold, actually, since quite a lot of people seem to be confused on that point.



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 05:54 PM CDT
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Absolom: I'm not sure what gave you the impression that this proposed system (to be clear - the one wherein Charisma, as a stat, determines one's success with the activity, because the activity is based on politicking/diplomacy/favor building, etc) is to REPLACE RP events, because I was not suggesting that.

> This is not a political system coded to limit access to participation based on how many times you successfully flirted with a bartender.

I have no idea why you drew this conclusion - the idea as I see it is that there are some set of activities you can do, that take RT, that are based on a skill/stat combination, maybe modified by some items (fashion accessories, moneybags for bribes, craftables as gifts, etc), that result in something happening. If you have an issue with this paradigm, I think DR might not be the game for you.

The reason I think such a system would be neat, is because presently Charisma, the stat, has no effect on how people RP with one another or the events in the game, and while that's something that perhaps only the Fallout series has done effectively, it stands to reason that because every other stat in the game is involved in something and can be involved in RP interactions (I wager your characters could kill my characters, even if I'm RPing them as deadly assassins and you RP yours as a pacifist), that maybe Charisma should be too.

To repeat myself, to be as clear as I can, I am NOT suggesting we bar players from RP events with other PCs or GMPCs based on their skill or their charisma. What I am suggesting is that a system that was like all other DR systems involving stats/skills and had the window dressing of being 'socializing/politicking/diplomicizing' could be a very cool addition to the game.

Think faction grinding in all MMOs. There are a lot of ways you could do this well, and, like virtually every system in Dragonrealms, some characters could choose to do nothing at all with it.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 05:56 PM CDT
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To be clear - In the Fallout series, if you set your characters intelligence very low, many conversational paths are not available to you (often hilariously). If you set your charisma very low, many NPCs will treat you accordingly.

This is a good thing, not a bad thing.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/18/2015 06:42 PM CDT
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>> perhaps only the Fallout series has done effectively

AHEM. Planescape Torment.



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 11:32 AM CDT
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>>I'm saying the Charisma stat doesn't automatically make you "charismatic." You can be successful and change Elanthian RP w/o high charisma, performance, or any of the above. You can also be a successful trader without actually being a trader.

You view this as a feature. I view it as a bug.

If you have a high Charisma but you're not seen as more charismatic through some in-game mechanic, outside of contested spells, than someone with a low Charisma, that's a flaw.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 11:35 AM CDT
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>>I'm thinking more of a prestige system that affected access to certain resources such as merchants, exclusive bars, mining or lumberjacking areas, faster travel over certain bottlenecks, etc.

>>That's how you support that sort of thing. But it'd be a huge project for not a lot of return, and would probably be regarded as stepping on the toes of both events and premium.

This. Some sort of prestige system or connections system. I don't know how exclusive it would be, but something Player A is able to access a faster travel route because they pay off/bribe the guard with money, but Player B is able to sweet talk them into letting her get past.

As for the size of the project, that's a fair challenge.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 11:44 AM CDT
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<<If you have a high Charisma but you're not seen as more charismatic through some in-game mechanic, outside of contested spells, than someone with a low Charisma, that's a flaw.

There are lots of systems in game that specifically take into account your Charisma as being more charismatic, not just contested spells. The ones below are the ones that only meet that criteria. I cut half of the other stuff Charisma does because it wasn't directly themed with being more charismatic in mind (e.g. spirit health, etc.)

Combat:
Used offensively in Spirit, Charm, and Fear contested spells

Justice System:
Reduces amount of fines from being arrested.
Increases the chance of evading the guards when a warrant has been issued.
Reduces the round time for plead release attempts from the stocks
Increases the chance of successfully ACCUSEing someone of Necromancy or evading a false accusation of Necromancy

Teaching System:
The more charisma your students have, the more teaching experience you will earn
The more charisma your teacher has, the faster you will learn the skill you are trying to learn
The more charisma you have, the more scholarship you will learn as a teacher or student.

Guild Specific:
Used by Bards for Bardic Screams, recalls and numerous guild abilities.
Used by Barbarians to power their roars
Used by Empaths in manipulating
Used by Paladins for leading and Smite among other abilities
Used by Thieves to more quickly reach higher levels of Confidence and to be able to attain the highest level of Confidence.
Used by Traders to increase sales profits in pawn shops, tanners, and gem shops as well as with contracts.

Other Uses
Reduces prices in shops with shopkeepers that use the barter system.
Improves performance.



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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 12:25 PM CDT
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The Justice System is probably the best analogy to what I think others are proposing, and I don't think anyone has a problem that Charisma influences the Justice System.

Some sort of political interface system in which Charisma is a factor would be nice.

However, I take the comments by Persida to heart.

>>The Adventuring class is comparatively small, and the average government not only has its own advisers and spies in spades, but also isn't really made up of the sort that on a day to day basis would be willing to risk the safety of their subjects (or their own power bases) by listening to just any convincing sounding person with a good smile and a really earnest approach. That is one part of why the influence that players of any guild can have on politics is simulated through eventing (and the Rumor system!) instead.

It's interesting that the idea is that the average government already has its own system of advisers and spies AND THAT THE ADVENTURING CLASS IS SEEN AS SEPARATE FROM THIS.

>>But, specific 'political influence' mechanics are really not something that I think I would ever support if they came up in proposals. Tangential things more in line with the place the Rumor system holds, those I could possibly support. Ideas for more broad 'social influence' or 'strings pulling' mechanics in line with haggling, current justice system interactions, or how Traders can access many of other guilds' guild-specific shops I could support depending on their other merits.

A Charisma-based system to access other guild-specific shops would be interesting.

So if the Adventuring Class is entirely distinct from the governing entities and a political influence system operating within the government's network of advisers and spies is out, what could work?

What are the major ways that someone would interact with governing entities in this quasi-Middle Ages setting?

Justice, check.

Passports, customs, immigration, etc. would probably be another major category. That could look like access to restricted areas after hours, special semi-exclusive bars and shops, or passage along alternate travel routes.

I'll back up and reference my original post. A Bard that is entirely separate and distinct from the government and its courts is a different creature than some of the real world inspirations for the Jester/Courtier archetypes. It creates something of a challenge then to figure out what other directions to go in.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 01:39 PM CDT
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First of all, let me say (again) that I would love ANY new systems that involve Charisma. I was very disappointed that it was dropped entirely from spell defense, and in general I want to see more from the stat -- but also it would just plain be cool to be involved in the game in a different way than combat. I too am not asking for anything special with regard to GM Events, but it would be amazing to add something like a way to belong to a House (in a minor way), vote on planned improvements to your province, receive information about courtly matters, or just generally be well known and influential among the local NPCs.

I know Raesh introduced the idea of Inspiration and Presence as Bardic pools in particular, with Inspiration powering abilities and Presence influencing the size of the Inspiration pool. When he introduced the idea, he mentioned Presence representing the Bard's connection to his or her society. So while I would really like to see something available to everyone, it would also be incredible to have some special additional hooks in place for Bards.

A couple of quick additions to previous posts:

>>A Charisma-based system to access other guild-specific shops would be interesting.

This already exists as a guild perk for Traders. Not saying it couldn't be expanded, just mentioning.

>>That could look like access to restricted areas after hours, special semi-exclusive bars and shops, or passage along alternate travel routes.

This already exists in the Raven's Court, which is a pretty neat addition. Would love to see more of these.

- Navesi
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 03:04 PM CDT
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>Abselom: There are lots of systems in game that specifically take into account your Charisma as being more charismatic, not just contested spells. The ones below are the ones that only meet that criteria. I cut half of the other stuff Charisma does because it wasn't directly themed with being more charismatic in mind (e.g. spirit health, etc.)

Yes, those systems you listed do in fact utilize Charisma in a mechanical way. That is a good thing. There should be more systems that do so, perhaps, even the system we are outlining that could be a lot of fun, particularly for classes that wish to emphasize less combat intensive activities.

You'll notice, I may add, that some of those systems are virtually pointless - better barter prices while haggling with shopkeepers? The only thing any of my characters needs to purchase routinely from shopkeepers that haggle are lockpicks, and only because I'm training. If I actually cared about lockpicking, I'd be purchasing full rings from Trader shops. So, yay, with low Charisma (35 or so) I can haggle slims down to about 400 kronars, for a maybe semiweekly cost of 3 plat in lockpicks, vs I dunno, maybe 5 plats? My character makes that in about 10m of hunting - hardly a worthwhile stat perk.

While I can appreciate that you looked at all the things in the Charisma entry in Elanthipedia (which, may I add, is hilariously out of date, I'll update!), and you are correct that Charisma is used in all those things, you'll A ) remember I stated in my last post that Charisma is NOT an unused stat, just an under developed one, and B ) the role of Charisma as a secondary or tertiary stat involved in some checks does not paint a picture of a fundamentally well used and established trait. Consider, for example, that most high level Necromancers ignore Charisma - it is, after all only really used partially for one of their spells (HP) and Justice checks.
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 03:35 PM CDT
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>> I was very disappointed that [Charisma] it was dropped entirely from spell defense, and in general I want to see more from the stat -- but also it would just plain be cool to be involved in the game in a different way than combat.

I was pretty disappointed too. And still disappointed. I felt it gave an edge to those that trained Charisma because it was also one of the attack stats.

I guess it was too strong with no one training Charisma?
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 05:59 PM CDT
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Or rather, it was a silly mechanism for force people to train a stat that otherwise had next to no purpose other than raising your 'defensive contest' average?
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Re: Bard Archetypes & Roleplaying on 07/19/2015 06:13 PM CDT
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Charisma was extremely underrated back in the day and absolutely worth training.

Now... not so much, honestly.



Thayet
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