I just hope that whatever contest they come up with it's not going to involve having to train a new skill.

---

* Malik was just struck down!

<<I suspect that if concussive is rewritten, it will also do something different. Right now, it's a standard light thrown attack that burns mojo, can't be fine targeted and has a cool down timer. On the face of it, it's weaker than just using a weapon attack.

Well said. Its not a perfect contest design, but certainly not overpowered either even if Vocals outclasses defenses by a large margin. Except, I'm going to assume, in the case of Leilond and his insane TF-level vocals. Sheesh!

I'd prefer something non-damaging myself too especially now that we have BOLT, STRA and soon to be BOS.

-Evran

"RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants!" -Evran

Mine too, all my weapons are 430-500 and vocals are over 1000. It's always been like that, twice my weapons.

That being sad..I am in favor of keeping an attack scream. I find havoc to be useless. By the time I knock something done and sit through the short roundtime, whatever I knocked down is back up on it's feet and preparing an attack. Not only that, but it has the largest mojo hit of all the screams, making it even less desirable. Defiance is my favorite.


- Terra

That being sad..I am in favor of keeping an attack scream. I find havoc to be useless. By the time I knock something done and sit through the short roundtime, whatever I knocked down is back up on it's feet and preparing an attack. Not only that, but it has the largest mojo hit of all the screams, making it even less desirable. Defiance is my favorite.

[\table]

In full agreement with Terra on all counts.

__

~Leilond

http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond

http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

For the sake of arguement, you say:

>If we had a primary rate combat skill in either defense or offense, I think that'd go a long way to making us more able in PvP.

but given:

>All of our offenses are secondary, and we train a majority of defenses at a tertiary rate.

why should you?

Should every guild have an attack based on their primary skillset?

---

"Your suffering amuses me" -GM Raesh

Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares

I'm not saying we should specifically have an attack. We should have something combatwise in our primary skillset, though. Training time being equal, we won't be able to handle survival primes because our secondary weapons/magic and tert perception will be outclassed by their evasion and stealth primes, and depending on their guild they'll have either Magic or Weapons placed more favorably than our defenses. We won't be able to handle Magic primes because their TM will outclass all of our defenses, though we would still have an even match as far as our offenses Vs. their defenses assuming we can survive the initial magic onslaught (this has never been my experience, though). Armor primaries won't have to worry about getting hit by us due to their uber shield, and they'll still have weapons placed more favorably than our defenses. Weapon primaries have weapons and defenses all placed more favorably than us, though we do have offenses placed on par with their defenses.

It's basically this: Lore primes don't have anything in their primary skillset to aid in combat, so they'll always be outclassed in one way or another. There's really no situation where we have the upper hand (again, assuming characters who have been trained around the same amount). While screams were somewhat aimed at alleviating that a bit, the fact that they were based on Vocals gave them (mainly Concussion, really) a cheap feel that I never cared for. Like I said before, the Tactics skill could help this.

Personally, I think Bards should be Everything Secondary. We'd still have the issue of not having a primary attack or defense, but having everything secondary would mean that we'd be outclassed by everyone (aside from Lore Primes) in one way, but we'd outclass them in another. :D
-=Issus=-

>I am questioning your implied assertion that everyone should have something combat related in their primary skillset.

>To put it this way, 4 out of the 5 skillsets...

I'm not sure this is a relevant dichotomy to be drawing. You do not play a skillset in DR, you play a guild.

Nine guilds have primary skillsets with direct combat application, three guilds have Lore.

The game is about combat. I don't think it's rational to assume crafting will be anything more than exponentially less challenging, interesting, and important. If for no other reason, crafting is simply not the core the game is built around. Combat is.

---

"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl

When you factor in the crafting focus options that everyone of every guild will get, I think it nullifies your point to an extent. For instance, if I could decide to have Evasion as my career and earn tech slots to improve my ability to evade as time goes on, I would be able to make up for my skillsets lack of combat prowess to a degree. In the new crafting setup, even non-Lore Primes will be able to compete with Lore Primes in their area of expertise. I don't see why Lore Primes shouldn't be able to compete in the other large portion of the game.

There is an annoyance factor in play here, as well: It's annoying knowing that pretty much anyone in the same hunting area as my character could wipe the floor with me, and that I'll likely never catch up due to skillset placement. This is, of course, outside of using boosting items like CJs and such (I do love using items to attempt to compensate for my rank disadvantage).

This isn't really meant to be a complaint, or even a request for a new setup. It's just my perception of how things are for Lore Primes, my thoughts on why Screams are what they are and why, and my support of the proposed Lore combat skill. I know there's really no chance of us becoming Everything Secondary (and even if we did, it'd leave Empaths and Traders in the same boat we've been sharing). I also know that Magic 3.0 and the Heritages will do more for the guild than we probably ever thought we'd actually get, so I'm very happy with the guild and where it's heading at long last!

-=Issus=-

It's really only the least combat oriented skillset because it's never had a combat skill in it. The game will always focus on combat as far as mechanics go. Excellent crafting systems in games enhance the overall game experience, but a majority of the things you're crafting are for combat.

The point is pretty much moot, though, since it seems that there will be a lore combat skill. The fact is, everyone has always considered Lore Prime to be a curse and the guilds that suffer under it to be jokes. It seems that the dev team wants to fix that, but it can't be fixed without change. If one of those changes is a Lore combat skill, what's the problem?

-=Issus=-

The thing is, one of the new skills being introduced is a lore combat skill called Tactics. Red names have already posted this. I would just like to be able to use that skill to fuel our screams, that is all.

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

>Since we're not arguing, I won't point out that asking for combat abilities that derive from the least combat oriented skillset would continue the trend of making the games focus be on combat.

Why would you want to reverse this trend. The game design is too tied into PVE combat to even support PVP combat. Why would a new non-combat pole in the design be a good idea?

There's a reason you simply start writing a new game design at that point.

---

"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl

>>
What about making scream it's own skill, like backstab?

It would have to be trained in combat/classes and could be placed in the Lore skillset.
<<

Huh, this is actually pretty simple and it makes sense.

If screams are going to be a regular part of Bardic combat why not make it its own skill? Backstab handles all of a Thief's stealth ambushes. This could be the equivalent for all of a Bard's scream maneuvers.

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

I figured that would be the case, thanks for the quick response.


~Sulakhan

---

"Under the sword lifted high, there is hell making you tremble. But go ahead, and you have the land of bliss."

~Miyamoto Musashi

Anytime I read the upcoming spell list for Magic 3.0 I get really excited. Huge THANKS to whoever has put work into it,and an extra special one to any working especially on ours!


- Terra

>>I was wondering are the durations of these buffs going to be so short that you can't keep them up for any reasonable amount of time?

A normal buff will last for up to 30 minutes. A cyclic buff can last indefinitely*. Buffs that are set as Combat spells (these will be very rare) shorter, Buffs that are Ritual spells (not nearly as rare) will be longer.

* This is not strictly true, but they can exist over 24 hours at a time.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

Mechanical. I don't think anyone's going to be inconvenienced by the limit, though.

-Z

<<If there are a few spells throughout the game that buff melee skills are they all the same strength or are the buffs essentially different strengths as far as caps are concerned?

Don't take this as gospel, but the following is how I understand it:

They'll all be the same strength, but the actual result will vary based on the caster's sphere of influence.

I.e. If perception is your guild's thing, perception boosts cast by you will be larger than perception boosts cast by a guild that doesn't have perception in their sphere of influence. Furthermore, I think that any perception boosting spell will result in the same boost as long as its cast by you.

So for example, a Bard casting Clear Vision and a Bard singing Eye of Kertigen will receive the same level boost, but a Bard casting Clear Vision will boost for less than a Moon Mage casting Clear Vision, because Bards don't have it in their sphere of influence whereas Moon Mages do.

-Evran

"RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants!" -Evran

> perception boosts cast by you will be larger than perception boosts cast by a guild that doesn't have perception in their sphere of influence

I don't think it's been clarified if it depends on the guild of the caster or the guild of the target, but otherwise, this is my understanding as well.

So, if I understand correctly all buff caps are the same? If a Moon mage casts clear vison on himself and a bard casts eye of kertigen on herself than they both get the same level of perception buff? But if a moon mage cast eye of kertigen they would get a weaker buff and the same goes for a bard casting clear vision?

What if a moon mage casts clear vision on a bard is it still capped? I just want to make sure I understand that a spell is always at cap if it is in the sphere of influence of the caster, regardless of the recipient.

Now, I don't know if this has really been discussed, but what exactly are we talking about when we say sphere of influence? What determines your sphere of influence?

Khoragr ~ Starting to understand new magic.

<<No. Buffs within your SoI are larger than those without. Other than that, yes. There are only two buff caps: In Sphere, and Out of Sphere.

Actually, this reminds me. When the Necro spell list was previewed, they were listed as having both Major and Minor spheres of influence.

Does that distinction still apply? And if so, that would mean there's three tiers of buff strength?

-Evran

"RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants!" -Evran