Attunement has become the major bottleneck for the effectiveness of my character's spells in combat. Let me describe the situation:

- 75th circle, 355 Attunement. For reference, the Performance req is 345 for that circle, so Attunement has not been neglected.
- Base room mana: 13 (shining), the highest she can see.
- Attunement Feats: Deep Attunement, Efficient Channeling, Efficient Harnessing.
- Mana-related spells up: Echoes of Aether (+Attune -- in sphere), Nexus (+2 levels of room mana).
- Other spells I keep up: Drums, Rage, Harmony, Naming of Tears, Lay Ward, +one cyclic (either Pyre or Dalu), +Misd during stealth training.
- Casting method: Cambrinth.
- Spell stance: 130% Potency, 100% Duration, 70% Integrity.

In short, I've got a strong base Attunement skill, all the Attunement feats, boost the skill with an in-sphere spell, AND boost the room mana, and I am still often running out of mana. This means that I have to lower the amount of mana I put into all my spells, both buffs and cyclics. I do have to recast LW pretty darn often (6 minute duration for me), so this may be a big contributor, but I was noticing the issue even before I added it to my routine. Other big contributors are probably Naming of Tears and Harmony, which are both mana-heavy spells that give relatively short durations (14 and 19 min, respectively), and Misdirection, which has a 4 minute duration for me. I'm sure there are other tweaks I could be making to my routine too, but at this point I feel like I'm wringing the cloth dry.

I find it an interesting issue to run into, and a little frustrating. I would really like to be able to use all my spells at their maximum effectiveness, and I've been willing to pay a lot into the mana-boosting system to do so. Also, importantly, I don't think it's an issue of wanting too much -- other guilds have similar numbers of buffs, and keeping a cyclic going is supposed to be our "thing".

Potential solutions:

- Reduce mana costs of some of the mana-heavy spells.
- Increase durations of same.
- Add some advanced versions of the Attunement feats. Maybe a channeling/cyclic one that is Bard only?
- Add a Bard spell or meta-spell that helps ease things. Maybe a Bardic Lore ability that allows us to extend the durations of our spells? I believe GS Bards can do something like this.

What he said.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

> With skills even only as high as the 300s, why not use the symbiosis/etc. to lower the mana requirement? That's what they're there for, isn't it?

Looking at the spell list, I'd assume they're doing it for the buff and not the learning.

>With more than double your attunement skill as a magic prime I would have trouble maintaining a cyclic and 7 or 8 spells - massive trouble if I was trying to do it with only shining mana.

Radiant (15) with the Nexus, but I see your point. Hmm, I wasn't aware of this. I also have a moon mage, who has 900+ Attunement, and I have literally never had issues with her. She uses TS, Seer, COL, MAF, PSY, LW, and SLS together currently -- and similar numbers of buffs throughout her career, all without a problem. And for most of that time she had no Deep Attunement feat, and she never uses AUS for the +Attune. Of course, Moon Mages are the kings/queens of Attunement. I never expected things to be that good with a Bard, but I was hoping to feel like I was getting something more out of the hefty mana-boosting investment I was putting in.

If it's intended, then I will keep pushing on Attunement, remove or downtweak the spells that are least useful, and look forward to the day when I can handle more.

My revised concerns/thoughts:

- Misdirection still feels like it's got a frustratingly low duration at low levels. I wish there were a minimum duration that were more than 1 minute. I have been using this spell since the beginning and the constant recasting does wear away on the fun.

- I'm wondering about the mana investment/return rate for spells that give +Attune or +mana levels. I think it is probably okay, it just makes me wonder how much I'm really getting out of them, given that I'm paying in the same coin I hope to be receiving. Needs more testing.

- Also of note, I wonder if BOTF is currently useful at all for solo Bards, as my (purely subjective) feeling right now is that it drains more than it gives. Also needs more testing.

- It would be nice if our best two defensive buffs (Harmony and Naming of Tears) were not BOTH esoteric and mana intensive. I'd like to see one be more accessible to a lower circle Bard. Or possibly a low-level, simple defensive buff.

- I would still totally pay slots for advanced Attunement feats.

- Most of all, I would love some enhanced way to deal with my cyclic spells, as a Bard. I hate having them suddenly fizzle on me. I'd love an ability that lets me choose to automatically lower my cyclic mana on the fly if I'm getting low. Or heck, even manually, a la the MANA SONG of old.

>>5. We still have in sphere abilities that we can't buff.

This is intentional and will always be the case for everyone.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

I agree with the mana flow issue - Bards don't really have good access to defensive combat spells until NAME and HARMONY, both of which are esoteric. Coupled with BotF being a cyclic, and we're in a somewhat odd position of not being able to use the host of mana boosting abilities when we want to buff up, and the ability to stay buffed up is strikingly later circle range than when most guilds are capable of doing so.

As a comparison, another magic secondary, Necromancers, who are supposed to be hardmode and stuff, has PHP, CH, and KS all available as basic difficulty. The only GvG here is that Bards have a hard time accessing their defensive skills - even a 30th circle requirement is somewhat moot if the most mana you can stuff into it nets you a whooping 6m. At around 260-70 magic, my Bard gets 8-9m out of capping HARM and NAME.

> This is intentional and will always be the case for everyone.

Is this a push towards sorcery, because otherwise what's the point?

> 1. Aban and Pyre are too similar.

Agreed. Further, as I've mentioned in the past, I feel compelled to get Pyre because of how prevalent corporeal undead are in quests/invasions. To a far lesser extent, constructs. This leaves me feeling like a schmuck for also dropping 5 slots on Aban because I prefer the flavor.

> 2. Eye is more or less worthless. Dark rooms are too rare, and the spot effect doesn't do anything for you at the cost of your cyclic.

This is my feeling as well, but since our spell tree makes it completely optional, I'm not bothered. It's fine if there are spells I skip because I find them less appealing. Now, if it turns out that no one is using it, then that's an issue. I have no reason to think that's the case, though.

> 3. Maybe I'm too used to hyrda hex (or maybe my memory isn't working), but DALU feels weak to me. I don't really "feel" safer by having it up, and I've been using it more to backtrain weapons (which AEWO is probably better for).

I use DALU when I train tactics, and it definitely helps. Without it, the critters start landing hits, since I'm not killing them quickly. With it, I'm completely safe. And I usually build up to 3 or 4 critters on me, so it's not just the sleep effect keeping me safe.

> 4. Aura of tongues is absolutely worthless.

I disagree. I don't use it often, but I love having it. Like Eye, our tree makes it completely optional, so I don't think there's a problem here.

>> 5. We still have in sphere abilities that we can't buff.
> Raesh: This is intentional and will always be the case for everyone.

I think it should be possible to access a buff for every skill if you're willing to engage in some light sorcery. The only skills this isn't possible for are Appraisal and Thievery. Appraisal I suspect will be remedied by the Trader spell list, which leaves Thievery. The Necro spellbook seems the natural place to put a Thievery buff.

> (attunement woes)

For what it's worth, at 1600 Attunement I burn a truly copious amount of mana while hunting and never have attunement issues. Between MAF, Name, Harm, Drum, Rage, Nexus and recasting Reso every time I change weapons, I probably cast a 100 mana buff every 5 minutes. This is in addition to 40 mana every 21 seconds for Aban (occasionally switching to 30 mana Dalu), using Misd while training stealth, tossing out a 60 mana Dema every ~2 minutes for Debilitation, and prepping a 45 mana MPP/Bless at every other free moment to work Sorcery/Augmentation/Utility/Warding. Oh, and I keep a capped Echo up, but it's hard to quantify how much mana that's using.

I don't have any of the attunement feats, unless you count Dedicated Cambrinth. I do use Nexus and Echo, and everything is prepped at min and then supplemented with mostly cambrinth and a little held mana. The other big change I made was to keep my buff durations staggered, so they don't all need recasting simultaneously. Before I made that last change, I occasionally lost my cyclic.

Oh, and I sometimes get the mana-drain sorcery backlash, but low end attunement regen is fast enough that I can just ignore it and keep on casting.

> If you want to patch a hole, use the tools available. No guild should be able to patch all the holes (coughClerics)

I don't consider skills within a sphere of influence as a hole. My point was about calling something a sphere of influence when you can't natively influence that thing. I personally don't mind it. I like that bards are pushed towards sorcery. It makes sense thematically, and I was wondering if that was the reason. Per your point, it's definitely not something seen across the board with many, many guilds.

> even a 30th circle requirement is somewhat moot if the most mana you can stuff into it nets you a whooping 6m. At around 260-70 magic, my Bard gets 8-9m out of capping HARM and NAME.

I'm okay with something to grow into. Our esoterics feel esoteric with a lot of growth potential. Sanctuary. Name. Harmony. Good stuff.

Here's where I am: 270ish warding, 315ish Augmentation, 350ish elemental.

30 + 8 mana NAME - stanced 130 100 70: The air around you reverberates with a supreme manifestation of the Naming of Tears spell, which should last for about fifteen roisaen.

30 + 8 mana NAME - stanced 100 130 70: The air around you reverberates with a supreme manifestation of the Naming of Tears spell, which should last for about seventeen roisaen.

And that's without using augmentation/warding/stat buffs like soul or echo.

30 + 7 + 7 mana Harmony - stanced 130 100 70: You sense the Harmony spell upon you, which will last for about nineteen roisaen.

30 + 7 + 7 mana Harmony - stanced 100 130 70: You sense the Harmony spell upon you, which will last for about twenty-two roisaen.

For my buffs, I generally do it while I'm working on performance. Put up a nexus. Pre-charge a camb for the low-mana spells (rage or drum) and charge mid play. I only wish we could prepare spells or play cyclics while researching/appraise focusing.

---

Kind of on a tangent, kind of not, but are spell stances broken? I thought capped power casts overflowed into duration. Not the case?

> I disagree, though I'm not sure Aban is worth the extra 2 slots. For training it's nice since you can still beat up on the critters even as you're killing them. Maybe shift it to factor Charisma more?

What do you mean? I thought the spirit damage from aban and the fire damage from pyre were roughly equivalent since they're all pushed to the same TM model, and I've never had a problem hitting mobs being weapons secondary and armor/survival tert.

> DALU is currently my favorite spell in game. It feels normously potent. Also, fwiw, it's an AoE offensive accuracy debuff - it's extremely similar to HYH - MALE but isn't a half debuff to OF/DF like HYH - MALE is.

I don't know. I must be using it wrong. I can push 12 mana into the spell and I don't "feel" like I'm getting hit less often.

I haven't played my cleric in a while, but I thought HYH allowed for a 100% off, 100% def, or 50% off/def. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think the whole toolkit was what worked well together. I'd have MAPP, MPP, HYH, SOL, and centering. Add PFE (undead). That's probably why it felt stronger, it was part of a larger suite. So maybe it doesn't apply here except that it was what I would equate old DEMA to.

> Traders will also have a scroll only Thievery buff, according to the list of planned spells.

Nifty. Thanks.

> DALU is currently my favorite spell in game. It feels normously potent. Also, fwiw, it's an AoE offensive accuracy debuff - it's extremely similar to HYH - MALE but isn't a half debuff to OF/DF like HYH - MALE is.

DALU is a stat debuff, not an accuracy debuff. Bards don't have an accuracy debuff.

> I can reach 17 minutes supreme with 1/3 of the max cast.

I just tested, and I'm getting supreme at min prep. I'm guessing it's a messaging bug.

> I believe those were cut and paste from another spell that both message exactly the same and someone made an assumption, except that one only messages as a supreme manifestation. I can't remember which is which though.

I think this is the case. I just checked my logs, and I've never seen anything other than supreme for Name. REPR, on the other hand, uses the full list.

>Agreed. Further, as I've mentioned in the past, I feel compelled to get Pyre because of how prevalent corporeal undead are in quests/invasions. To a far lesser extent, constructs. This leaves me feeling like a schmuck for also dropping 5 slots on Aban because I prefer the flavor.

Could you explain this one for the not-a-bard in the folders?

>I use DALU when I train tactics, and it definitely helps.

I know you're very high level, but do you have to specifically set out to train tactics? All of my stable have done ok just by doing an analyze one per critter, but again, not remotely near your level.

But why do you require DALU to train tactics? I'd think that because tactics is so much higher than other combats, you'd have no problem pulling off combos.

Curious - I feel that DALU extends the range of what I can hunt significantly. I get hit less, and I hit harder. That's helpful for everything that requires those two things.

> But it turns out that without Aban hammering on them, my defenses aren't quite up to handling 4 critters at a time.

So are you saying that Aban is a stronger AOE offensive debilitator than DALU, or is ABAN just keeping the number of mobs at bay?

>Isn't AEWO better for this kind of thing? My it's just my level, but immobilize feels like a stronger debuff than sleep.

Because AEWO only hits the target you're facing - the only time this would be necessary in PVE is when I can't handle the target I'm facing... in which case, why am I even in that hunting ground?

My bards tactics are 315, and his top weapon is 247. He can perform combos on stuff he can't hit, not vice versa. To that end, I'd rather make everything engaged with me have a harder time hitting me than immobilize the thing I'm facing. That doing so also makes them all easier to hit, and also sleeps the target I'm facing makes me go to DALU over AEWO in any PvE situation. AEWO's useful bit to me is the mana regen hit - take that Clerics or Warmies.

I also have no idea if sleep is stronger than immobilize.

I don't think training tactics is a problem - either you train on critters that work it, or you can't handle the critters that do because it's gotten ahead. If you're in the latter situation, immobilizing one critter won't let you survive the other 3.

For back training, I again prefer DALU because of the Reflex debuff. I'm sure AEWO would work find for critters you can handle just fine if don't want to go to a different hunting ground, but that's awfully niche for PvE.

> IMO: BOTF is of far greater interest and power to me than Nexus ever will be. The only benefit I see to Nexus is the ability to pound your attunement with a larger single cast spell.

Nexus helps you sustain cyclics for longer. I want to say that room mana affected regen, but I'm not sure that's still the case.

> BOTF is better if you want to mass-cast spells, in particular this would be things like Breath of Storms at or near your maximum prep ( for me its about 25 ). I can mass cast ( full prep, obviously, it'll backfire otherwise ) this in a muted mana room without issue.


Why pick? Do both!