No. Meraud's Cry is doable, but I question its value versus the effort it'd take to get it working right. It'd be a bear to complete and Clerics routinely poo-poo spells with a lot more direct utility than Meraud's Cry would have.

Of the two spells, I'm much more interested in Idon's Theft. Work isn't being done on either at the moment, but I'd leap on Theft if I had the time.

-Armifer

"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

-Viktor Frankl

I just assumed it was since we have had titles for it since close to when titles 2.0 came out. That's mostly what I want it for. As far as poo-pooing spells if you're refering to KW I still haven't found it useful for anything but PvP in which It did provide a good size Debuff. I just didn't notice any difference in my ability to hide on creatures. the item protection is nice Though. I'm just not interested in PvP.

I haven't heard or seen anything on Idon's Theft. Would you be able to give us an idea of the proposal for the spell?

The spell that I'm most interested in ATM is Flames of Ushnish.

At any rate is it the Thing and the other thing that is holding up the development of Cleric spells? It's sad to hear that they are not being worked on. The Cleric spellbooks, while having a great deal of quality spells, is severly lacking in their number. At 100th circle I have, I think, 5 free spell slots and that's including GG. By 150th if I'm doing my math right I'll have 15 free spell slots, unless of course I get KW STRA and MaF then it will drop to 12. Still too many IMO for a magic primary guild.

Thanks for listening

Concerned player of Rishlu

>> As far as poo-pooing spells if you're refering to KW I still haven't found it useful for anything but PvP in which It did provide a good size Debuff.

I would guess he may have also been referring to recent threads insisting Huldah's Pall and Confound Enemies are pointless, overly nichey and underpowered.

---

Rev. Reene

"More I would, but Death invades me;
Death is now a welcome guest.
When I am laid in earth,
May my wrongs create
No trouble in thy breast.
Remember me, but ah!
Forget my fate."

- Dido's Lament

>>I would guess he may have also been referring to recent threads insisting Huldah's Pall and Confound Enemies are pointless, overly nichey and underpowered.

Hrm, I don't have a problem with either of those spells. I don't use CoE much but I love HulP

"I would guess he may have also been referring to recent threads insisting Huldah's Pall and Confound Enemies are pointless, overly nichey and underpowered."

Hmmm I must have missed those threads. I remember a thread where I proposed an addition to HULP, and during that thread you and Mazrian called HULP overpowered. Reviewing the thread, exactly one cleric pointed out how narrow of a niche HULP was. I can't find a single post by anyone calling HULP pointless or underpowered? This thread was a month ago. Are you talking about older threads, maybe from 2007 or 2006?

The only thread regarding COE was started by me in July suggesting a small addition. I did not then, nor afterwards suggest that COE was pointless etc. Nor can I find any post by any other cleric calling COE 'pointless'. Once again during that thread the loudest voices were yourself and Mazrian complaining that COE is overpowered. The closest I could find was a post by Rience saying he was going to have to re-check COE out. I actually chose COE based upon Syralon's suggestion at the beginning of the year and mildly complimented it. And of course all of this took place prior to change to COE to bring it in line with AC. Cleric comments regarding that change? I don't think there was a single complaint. Are you referring back to some threads in 2007 or 2006? Because there was a time years ago when COE did seriously question COE.

No, I suspect that Armifer is referring to pretty much every new cleric spell released since Phelim's Sanction- Harm Horde, EF/BF, AO, and KW.




"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"

>>No, I suspect that Armifer is referring to pretty much every new cleric spell released since Phelim's Sanction- Harm Horde, EF/BF, AO, and KW.

Ah I can understand HH and KW but EF/BF and AO are solid spells.

Awesome sounding spell. Doesn't holy conflict with pretty much everything else though?

>>Doesn't holy conflict with pretty much everything else though?

I don't think it's that bad with Lunar and Elemental. It's violent with life though

"Ah I can understand HH and KW but EF/BF and AO are solid spells."

I was posting my surmise as to what spells Armifer felt clerics had not received well. There were fairly vigorous discussions regarding EF/BF and AO when they were released.

There have been some positive posts regarding EF and AO in the last year, and I would love to get more feedback on how clerics are using the spells. Personally, I haven't felt the need for them, but would love to have someone show me the errors of my thinking. And if you are using BF please provide feedback, because I have posted a couple times asking if anyone is using it.



"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"

Both sound like neat concepts IMO.

I would hope both would cause some kind of damage or disability to the person being effected. Especially Meraud's Cry...I imagine all that spell energy being unleashed is kind of bad for the body (I envision a Shear-style reaction).

---

Rev. Reene

"More I would, but Death invades me;
Death is now a welcome guest.
When I am laid in earth,
May my wrongs create
No trouble in thy breast.
Remember me, but ah!
Forget my fate."

- Dido's Lament

>>I would hope both would cause some kind of damage or disability to the person being effected. Especially Meraud's Cry...I imagine all that spell energy being unleashed is kind of bad for the body (I envision a Shear-style reaction).

Theft might be served with a limited HULP effect, removing the person's ability to cast the ripped spell for a few seconds (but not any other spell). Beyond that, I don't think the concept would require more to be useful.

>>Per SSRA if anyone is in a position to write a new spell, its either you or someone working for you.

"Position" in this case refers to other demands on my time.

-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl

Near as I can tell, the vast majority of Clerics are highly stagnant in how they think about their spells. I think that PS and FF are the most-used spells out of everything they've gotten in the past few years, despite some very solid designs that can be put to good use. I discern this primarily from the advice given: I never hear AO being suggested or HORN used as an incentive. Maybe this is just my limited experience, maybe it's just fewer newbie clerics, and maybe it's just my not hanging around clerics any more. After all, I see a whole lot less advice being shared, period.

If anyone has broken out of this, I haven't seen it. It's a very disturbing brand of fatalism mixed with cynicism, and it doesn't surprise me one bit that Lirrak almost never posts here, or that the most positive posts tend to come from people who are new.

I've been pushing against this for years, but the most positive reaction I've gotten is a sleepy shrug. I honestly don't think any one GM is ever going to pull the guild out of the hole. I do hope, however, that the players can wake up a little and pull themselves out. I'm an idealist for democracy and anarchy like that.

So in the spirit of actually doing that, I'll finally get off my butt and post something that's been baking for a couple months.


---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin

Go Devan go. Looking forward to reading what you have in mind.


"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"

To be fair, PD is used almost as much, or more than, CrS for training.

You just get most of my information on MMs from me Smegul, and I don't have PD :P

-- Mozzik, the Fateweaver

---

Caelumia says, "I love the tools even more."

<<I never hear AO being suggested or HORN used as an incentive.
HORN's my favorite living TM spell because it teaches so damn well. It took over my FF macro.

<<Maybe this is just my limited experience, maybe it's just fewer newbie clerics, and maybe it's just my not hanging around clerics any more. After all, I see a whole lot less advice being shared, period. ..... I do hope, however, that the players can wake up a little and pull themselves out. I'm an idealist for democracy and anarchy like that.

I'm really hopeful this may change. Apparently "everyone's making a cleric" (and not just a rezzing one) and they are the "new thing." So I'm hopeful at least that some new blood and new ideas will start to flow.

I feel that some of these spells are like puzzles. We just need to find the right times and situations where they are useful. Syralon posted a great log on how to use HH. I'm hoping similar ideas can be generated for spells like BF, AO, and KW.

Nikpack
player of Celeiros

Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill

And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z

"I feel that some of these spells are like puzzles. We just need to find the right times and situations where they are useful. Syralon posted a great log on how to use HH. I'm hoping similar ideas can be generated for spells like BF, AO, and KW."

I always enjoy when players post how they are using spells. Often I am inspired to try something new. It was posts about COE that drove me to choose it, and I don't regret that choice.

With that in mind, I will share thoughts about one our quirkier spells- Halo. This is to my mind a very good niche spell. While not needed often, when used it can be quite powerful and can be a life saver. Most clerics think of Halo as their emergency back up, sitting in their orb sucking up mana, waiting until they get stunned. I don't use Halo for that as much any more, now that an infused Centering has anti-stun, though last night it saved me quite well. But there are other fun uses for Halo.

Cadderly was the first one who really showcased how to use Halo offensively, by advancing on a foe and invoking Halo from the orb. There were times when that was the only cleric magic that would work on some invasion foes. It is also a good way to throw back a crowd if you more creatures on you than you can retreat from. Against undead, with enough skills, a high mana Halo can be devestating.

I really like experimenting with self cast Halo. Quirky and hard to use to your advantage, a high mana self cast Halo sits there waiting for someone or something to advance upon you. My invasion strategy is always to use a high self cast Halo and pump up until it won't hold any more mana. This can be very effective at push back or even destroying advancing invasion creatures.

I like experimenting with Halo. That said, I think two things would make Halo much more reasonable to use. Reduce the suckage of the orb by Halo, and eliminate Halo failing when there isn't enough mana in the orb. The primary reason I rely upon Centering more than Halo for saving my rear is because I have had Halo fail too many times because the mana level in my orb had dropped too low, but Centering AS stays up until the orb is completely drained.








"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"

It's probably going to be later in the evening- so yes after 7pm

>>I don't know Caelane(have we ever met in game? I can't remember doing so), so don't know what Caelane is like in game.

Oh how soon we forget... We have met IG, I'm the one with Bromus usually getting killed by some critter or another.

Caelane's torment is more sarcasm and a general attitude of negativity more than anything else. While I'm willing to admit there are probably more than a few clerics who don't want to attend simply b/c of Cael's personality issues, there are others who she's quite neutral to that have been less than willing to attend a possible event. Maybe people just didn't want to travel to Ratha.

And there are plenty of clerics she just doesn't know. So hopefully those will attend and not be put off by whatever rumors are going around about my character's not so likeable personality traits.

~Player of "One of the Caels."

Bromus says, "think I'm gonna go horn some shylvics and mastiffs"

Bromus says, "and then get some sleep"

You say, "I can't think of anything to say to that."

>>Now Tyrun and I are trying to put together a prayer-gathering for the coming week, and every cleric that we've asked to attend has not shown interest. We're CLERICS people! Let's get together and pray. Its probably the one time Caelane is not going to taunt and torment her fellow clerics.

I've noticed that one trick to getting people interested in an event is to make it something vaguely mysterious, so that a lot of people are coming with the hope of learning something.

That might help you out.


---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin

>Yeah I see EF's uses. it's BF that I'm having trouble with. I honestly just don't think I'd need to use something like EF/BF that often.

Yup. BF just reminds me of the old days of MPFE and PFE being different spells, or Mass Rejuv, or Mass PoM, or Ring of Blessings.

I'm hoping that when we get cantrips BF is converted into a cantrip in one of two ways:

1) Invoke cantrip, EF cast within the next minute will just be what BF is now.

2) Invoke cantrip, an existing EF addiction effect is consumed and you're stunned for a duration relative to the duration left on the addiction effect.

As it stands I just don't see BF as a spell I'd find myself using. I mean, I've got infused centering in my orb most of the time -- wouldn't every time I cast BF consume that? That could get annoying.

Halo -- I've used it in two ways. Before PS, I used it more as an offensive spell. I'd put it at minimum, or close to minimum, prep in the orb. Then I'd invoke it often whenever I felt like I needed to get an edge on something -- it worked pretty well. Then I got enough ranks in TM that I wound up hurting things pretty badly or knocking them far away or out of the room which got pretty annoying.

Now I just keep it at max prep in the orb and only use it in emergencies (or it auto-goes-off in emergencies). It's pretty impressively powerful with a lot of TM -- which is understandable given that it drains what, 72 mana at max prep? Compared to the 38-40 max prep on most other spells of that tier, I'd certainly hope it would be good.

It has a TM contest, so Skral said when he released it.

Yeah I remember being told it was a TM contest also. But after the experience absorbtion while logged off went into place, I went out a couple times whacking A'danf just with Halo(which teach me TM fine) and no TM experience was showing up. A few months ago I asked for GM clarification but never got a response. I will go and check that out again, but assuming I am right, and it is not teaching TM, it seems one of three possibilities:
a) It is a TM contest, but is not teaching TM, which seems like a bug to me.
b) It changed from being a TM contest at some point. As I recall, Halo was supposed to be one of those quasi TM spells that have been eliminated. If it is no longer a TM spell, it would be interesting to see what it is. I suppose I could test this in another way by using a TM CJ.



"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"