Greater skeletons are frickin huge.

Takes everything I have to drop one, and they see me hiding with like 600 effective hide (at least). I have sick SvA stats and it takes a capped HB to web them, and then after that it takes 4+ full aim snipes to drop one with mid 300s in my weapons.

They're way above you. Not that clerics shouldn't have a (huge) edge when dealing with undead, just that greater skeletons are frickin monsters and any other undead in the game you will wipe the floor with.


-Teeklin

The problem with undead is undead status + stats since you have to get through MR before it checks to see how much extra damage or effectiveness is done because of holy mana (My theory nothing I've read indicates where this weakness to spell type is taken into account or if it is even done in a standard manner).

So before fighting, make sure you have a good vigil up (since it increases charisma and possibly other things) and a good benediction.

With your pure TM spells, the mana you cast it at isn't going to matter so you may notice that change with AE which wasn't pure TM before (I think it is now right?).

If you're having issues stunning the dancer and aren't getting flickering lights, I would guess it is because of how dancers have good mental stats (or the creature equivalent) whereas mammoths just have a ton of stamina/strength.

The undead stats thing can get pretty ridiculous even on stuff that isn't flexed or a static 100th circle but I'm guessing any changes which would take spell type into account before MR calcs if they don't already will be waiting for MR vs magic to be rescaled first.

The only reason why that CL worked well I'm guessing was because if the warrior mage can scuff them, they can destroy their nerves even if it takes a bunch of casts.

For now, and this is also true against higher barbarians especially dancing or other high circle PCs/GMPCs, stat vs stat will beat out TM and since TM takes a beating vs MR, your best bet will be to scuff something to death with a hammer.

I am --- Navak

>Flex code, in brief, as near as I can determine, works like this: the system looks at who's in the area. It calculates the mean circle of the folks in the area, then spawns a critter a Barbarian of that circle would enjoy hunting.

Are you really going to make me dig up the post that Ssra made about the changes to flex critters? I just did it in another topic. How about you go look it up yourself.


Strangeguard Prayermaster

I never saw a post that said it only applied to critters on a quest. Perhaps you can dig that up?


Strangeguard Prayermaster

Yeah that was the post that I was reffering to. I assumed that it was implemented. My fault. But it does not say that the change would only be to quest creatures, it says "This makes it difficult for quest groups because creatures that spawn are suited for only the "middle" group members and at the opposite extremes the difficulty is either too hard or too easy."

So I guess my next question would be to Ssra, is this change in effect? or will it be soon (TM)?


Strangeguard Prayermaster

It's a beat generation thing.


I am pretty dang positive Cadderrly is referring to invasion greater skellies which are absolutely different from the dark abbey flex critters. A mammoth is easier to kill than the red-eyed invasion greater skellies.

The Bopper

>>Do you have a Captain Kermoria suit?

Budget difficulties make this consist of a sheet with eyeholes...so technically yes.

I am --- Navak

<<Ainandil does the shtick schlapping dance.>>

Aren't shticks supposed to be funny? You must have lost the memo somewhere.

<<Budget difficulties make this consist of a sheet with eyeholes...so technically yes.>>

Captain Kermoria is a ghost. Will he save the day?

- Simon

http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html

>Budget difficulties make this consist of a sheet with eyeholes...so technically yes.

I've been looking for one of those!

And to stay on topic, why not make bless and uncurse more useful by letting us use them as TM spells also? (Bless has already been used to kill invasion critters.)

>I've always found it irritatingly interesting that so many (of every single race) claim to be orphans in Elanthia. ~ Bambina

Perhaps since I am reading the whole of the thread at once- Cadd is absolutely right- Clerical spells should slice threw undead MR- not holy mana- clerical spells. Undead are our designated foes and just as HE ignores armor, clerical spells should get a huge bonus vs undead magic resistance.

Indeed we should have some non-magical abilities that can put undead at a disadvantage that are more similar to roars than anything else- anyone care to remember the idea of holy symbols? Clerics should be able to stun a room of undead better than any other guild- but we can't. We should be able to damage or destroy a room of undead better than anyone else- but we can't. Unfortunately no one is going to take on the task of making holy symbols that are more potent than roars against undead until at the very least we have a guild guru.


Flavius

"I don't believe a cleric casting fire shard should be more adept at battling undead MR than a warrior mage casting fire shard. The only way that would even begin to make sense would be if the usage of holy mana was the cause."

Under the right circumstances, Clerics are more adept, but only because of the type of spell- since HE ignores armor and shields and Fire Shard does not. Why? Because cleric magic is differant from Warmies. Cleric magic such as Harm Evil and Divine Radiance are designed to cause harm to undead, say versus Paladin magic which causes damage to both undead and non-undead alike. We also have spells that defend differantly vs undead- this is our very limited little hunting ghetto that we are supposed to excel at- luckily we are no longer confined to it, but since this is the one area we are supposed to excel at, I would like it if we actually did.

"I don't know if the contest vs MR happens before it checks who/what is casting the spell and if it is a holy spell or clerical spell but it seems to check MR and then the spell which is why I think clerics aren't where they should be vs undead since undead seem to have better than average stats (that we can measure)."

Frankly, I don't know either, but it would be a very reasonable, IC and would not affect game balance for clerics to be able to overcome undead MR easier than other guilds.

An example would be I can min prep and stun an orc raider or bristle back and chain it. against a shadow hound which since the change is MUCH easier opponant than either, I can't get past undead MR with a full prep and cast takes about 4 mana or so added to it for a small one.

Big differance here this critter just shows it well. Undead should be weaker vs clerical magic because all the immortals HATE undead.

We should be able to rock them folks, we ain't.

Cadderrly

Since I'm completely impartial (the only undead I fight is the lesser skeletons that pop up during invasions, and honestly... "fight" is the wrong word), I was wondering if a pair of clerics could compare stats and skills and devotion levels (a sudden intuition tells me it plays a role, so I'd rather have a note made of it; play safe) on the same critter and see if any differences are found.

If it's a matter of one of the above three that's causing the discrepancy, then we have a more grounded perspective.


-- Holy Scholar Diarik Erasto, Arcane Researcher, in search of spiritweaving.

"A good war is very instructive." -- Me.

"Hmm... I have to ask: a while back, I was under the impression that most people felt undead mastery was something we could do without, on the condition that we got something better in return. Has this changed?"

While there are clerics who have said enough with the undead stuff, reality is clerics will not be allowed to be better at killing living- and that includes players- better than warmies. This has been both stated and is clear in context.

This leaves us with spirit combat- a road that is so far in the distance and with a dismal history- and again one where we will not be allowed to exceed warmies in killing or non-combat utility effects. The one area where most clerics agree is that we don't need much more in the way of helping other dead characters(I think we need more to help our own dead character but that is another discussion).

The one area of combat where we have been repeatedly been told we would be the masters of is against undead. I would just like to see more spells and abilities to reflect this so that we are better than warmies or barbarians against say skeletons. We should have area affect spells that affect undead better than barbarians roars or CL or frostbite. We should cut through undead MR like a hot knife through butter. We should have a revised parry/shield boost that gives a modest boost like before(60 ranks) against living, but against undead should give a better boost than SW- say 120 ranks. We should have a bonus with melee weapons against undead tied to devotion.

But reality is that until we have someone focusing on our guild, we pretty much get whatever comes our way.

Flavius

I'm curious too, since that came out of left field.

- Simon

http://www.phiiskeep.homestead.com/Frontpage.html

After a bit more testing I think it is just the individual critters have really high resistance to holy. Hierophants I can stun with 40 to 44 mana PS considering they are sky giant level and I am under 80th that is not to bad at all. Just some critters seem a bit high put since we don't have a guild guru to check them out, It ain't goin to get fixed anytime in the next year or so. Basically we just learn to live with it.

Cadderrly

>You have missed the point. Here is a stick. Go poke Momus.

>I'm curious. In a couple of logs I have seen, you mention Momus and here in another post you mention him again.

I could explain, but that would ruin the joke. Go poke Momus.

>Korsik says, "Momus is a tool."

>Ainandil collapses to the ground, helpless with mirth. "Dude..."

Love,

Father Ainandil, Cleric of Saemaus

>Nickels says, "They're hiding. They're in their magical boxes."
>Ainandil cackles!
>Gridaksma says, "Can't explain, won't apologize."

>>I don't think hierophants are sky giant level. Hierophants don't pose that much of a challenge, really, if I can take them down without breaking a sweat. Offensively they were something like a fendryad on PMS, and defensively they were sort of a joke. I kind of wondered why they were there, except as someone's idea of a joke. Sky giants are a critter I don't want to be two rooms away from.

Hierophants in the cleric ressurection quest level will teach well over 700 ranks and can easily kill me one-on-one with over 400 in defenses.


-Teeklin

"You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is." -Joss Whedon

I did some playing around with MR on some dragon priestesses. It wasn't easy at all. Full prep 30 mana got the job done. Shadow beasts usually take me 20ish at full prep. I believe they are right around the same level. Though, basilisks I have no clue. 30 mana full prep didn't get the job done so I just gave up trying.

The Bopper

>Ok, that pretty much explains what I was referring to before. You just post jokes that only you understand and think are funny -- too bad they're not. Thanks :)

Oh no someone is muscling in on your territory, another upstart pretender to the dork throne.