>I have one observation that I think is worth mentioning. People that only seriously play one guild lack the perspective that people that play multiple guilds often have, and I think that's partly what we're seeing here.

Then you would be sadly mistaken on my part. I'm very active with my Thief, Moon mage, Empath and War mage who except for my Moon mage have been around longer then my Cleric. Because I rolled up a Trader, Ranger and Barb as well I wouldn't pop into thier rants n rave to justify my position for my main char by saying hey I have a Ranger, Trader and Barb.
-Entyycement

>A post has been pulled.

>I'm glad to see a good conflict going in here! Just keep an eye on the language please.

That's a shame too because people that post like that are ruining the fun debate and taking these thread waaaay to seriously!

-Entyycement

I swear enough for everyone, regardless.


Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
Airanie whispers, "are you raising?"
>whisper air I don't deal with corpses.
Airanie whispers, "ah I'm sorry thought you were a cleric, my apologies"

>>As much as I disagree with most of what you Syralon post, you self identify as a cleric and I figure you are advocating your own warped view of what is best for the clerics guild.

>>Why does should I give this weight when it is so clearly self serving, as opposed to known, self-identified clerics such as Enty or Aeth(who usually doesn't agree with me either)- or for that matter- you.

I'm honored.





Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
Airanie whispers, "are you raising?"
>whisper air I don't deal with corpses.
Airanie whispers, "ah I'm sorry thought you were a cleric, my apologies"

I don't post much but I wanted to here because I agree with Flavius and Enty. I call shenanigans when someone pulls out the I have a Cleric too when said person has been clearly posting from thier MM's perspective.

>>I call shenanigans when someone pulls out the I have a Cleric too when said person has been clearly posting from thier MM's perspective.

>>I really don't care what non-clerics think of the proposals. - Flavius

I'd say it's poor form to criticize someone for mentioning they have a relevant character(s) when someone else made it an issue in the first place.


Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
Airanie whispers, "are you raising?"
>whisper air I don't deal with corpses.
Airanie whispers, "ah I'm sorry thought you were a cleric, my apologies"

>>You know it would be funny if the Clerics that follwed the light aspects had a protective force around them from killing and stealing in the guild and the people that followed the dark aspects can get robbed and killed til thier hearts content then there would'nt be anymore "My dark aspect allows killing and mayhem". Everyone wins all around!

Not really, because the complaint wasn't about violence against Clerics, it was violence period .


Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
Airanie whispers, "are you raising?"
>whisper air I don't deal with corpses.
Airanie whispers, "ah I'm sorry thought you were a cleric, my apologies"

Too restrictive, and prone to the same sort of OOC/IC rationalization problems that people were complaining about earlier in the thread. Why would a follower of Kuniyo be protected from aggressive action? Why would they want it?


Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
Airanie whispers, "are you raising?"
>whisper air I don't deal with corpses.
Airanie whispers, "ah I'm sorry thought you were a cleric, my apologies"

>>Why would a follower of Kuniyo be protected from aggressive action? Why would they want it?

This is the same IC rationalization to an OOC complaint that I was talking about. I ignored it earlier but I'll respond now.

Firstly, I may or may not roleplay the same way as you. There might be rare instances where a follower of Kuniyo would opt to avoid violence. Malkien, as an example, is a follower of Trothfang, so quite obviously this would NEVER be the case. It would always be battle and slaughter, period.

My complaints are a little stronger now because I'm pissed that I got killed by a snert a while back. I would like to say that, on a very general level, the roleplay atmosphere is great and often roleplay is an excellent option. It's not like the Cleric guild is a refuge for violence that is a problem 24/7. It is not an issue all that often.

However, the tangent 'Why would Apis, a follower of Kuniyo, want to be protected from violence?" is completely moot. I, DiminishedAngel, as a player am unhappy with the current state of the room. My complaint is OOC (well, the complaints of many, rather), and it should be addressed OOC. The simple fact is that there exist a few (very rare) players that do not care about roleplay, do not interact with roleplay, are not interested in reason, and often policy-skirt. Policy and not getting locked out, which is an OOC issue, is all that matters to a snert.

The building is a popular Triage area, if I want to be Cleric-y I can't really move elsewhere. If a murdering MM wants to be a murdering MM she can just move elsewhere. It's not my problem. The only real justification for keeping the area from being no-violence I have seen so far is a general sort of philosphical objection. That doesn't really count as a real reason. There are real reasons, players, and incidents that suggests the room should be changed from its current incarnation.

---

You are Malkien, a dashing Barbarian. Huzzah!
You are Apis, a legendary Cleric in your own head.
You are Ragesong. What sort of Kaldar is a Bard, anyways, doofus?
You are also Pellazan (WM), Essatariol (Ranger) and running out of sig space.

>>This is the same IC rationalization to an OOC complaint that I was talking about. I ignored it earlier but I'll respond now.

I figured I'd provide a more applicable response than "Glorified PvP switches have a host of problems of their own."

My problem boils down to the fact that there are currently methods of enforcement already in place. Does the monk need an upgrade, or maybe an assistant? Sure. But if people aren't willing to get up for 15 seconds to take advantage of the tools available to them, I'm not going to shed tears of sympathy. Yes, I know that it's not always possible to get the Monk to boot someone due to levels/number of people around/etc, but that is the case for other guilds too. There are limits on the Monk just like there are limits on the equivalents in other guilds, because if they are prone to abuse then people will take advantage of that.

Quite frankly, and I will be perfectly blunt here, some people deserve to be killed and/or stolen from as a result of their words or actions. Moreover, the act of murder or robbery does not mean there is a total lack of RP present. Arguments that tend to devolve into violence often end up moving to the guild because that's where the corpses end up. You're going to get that in any triage spot regardless of how "Cleric-y" the room actually is.


>>It's not like the Cleric guild is a refuge for violence that is a problem 24/7. It is not an issue all that often.

Which is why blanket changes to completely remove viable options (of which killing and robbery are two) are unnecessary and restrictive.

Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
Airanie whispers, "are you raising?"
>whisper air I don't deal with corpses.
Airanie whispers, "ah I'm sorry thought you were a cleric, my apologies"

We should restrict the usage of aligned spells too! Afterall, why would Murrula favor a dark cleric? Make them pay the price!

Why indeed? I'm trying to toss out suggestion for everyone because there isnt a happy middle apparently. We could play the well why would this god allow such and such all day long if we wanted to make EVERYTHING Clerical make sense. lol

-Entyycement

"Quite frankly, and I will be perfectly blunt here,"

Heh- because usually you are too tactful for such inflamatory remarks!

" some people deserve to be killed and/or stolen from as a result of their words or actions."

I have never disagreed with that. I may disagree with specific cases but certainly there are times when characters have earned their deaths. My only arguement is that they shouldn't happen- and don't need to happen within the clerics guild. I can live with the idea that making it a no-violence area might be counter productive- but an automatic 1 year RL ban from the guild for a non-cleric killing anyone within our guild would be fine with me. Would be perfectly IC for the guild not to allow those in who disgraced the hospitality of the guild.

"Moreover, the act of murder or robbery does not mean there is a total lack of RP present.Arguments that tend to devolve into violence often end up moving to the guild because that's where the corpses end up."

I haven't seen much of it- the usual thing I see is- Deadbob is resurrected, Joe Blow steps into guild, his macro triggers, killing Deadbob again, and steps Joe Blow back out of the guild.

Let people roleplay anyway they want to- just if they feel a need to kill someone while in the guild, let their be consequences from the guild itself. If they don't want those consequences, then they may have to exercise that rare commodity called patience.

"But Flavius, what about that mouthy cleric who is gwething nasty things about me while hiding in the clerics guild."

Well, it is the clerics guild. If the cleric is annoying you that much, go ahead and kill him. Just prepared to not come into the clerics guild for a year. Otherwise, if you aren't willing to face the consequences- do what everyone always says- take off the gweth if you don't like what you are hearing.

Remember- anyone who is not a cleric is a guest in the guild. They have no right to be there, it is a privelage that can and should be revoked for cause.

Flavius

>>"My dark aspect allows killing and mayhem". Everyone wins all around!<<

This argument is not the issue because the Immortals are not the ones running the guildhalls. As has been stated before the guildleaders along with Tallis are the ones that dictate what is acceptable and is not acceptable in their halls.

I am not going to reveal what their plans are but their are plans being discussed which include some additional training for the monk as well as some other upgrades to the guildhall. I'm sure it will be brought up during the Guildleader meeting in the very near future. The only reason it hasn't happened yet is some RL scheduling difficulty.




GM Lirrak
Cleric Liaison

To the best of my knowledge, no other guild has automatic expulsion from their guildhalls for violence, let alone penalties of the duration you're proposing.

Again, this goes back (whee, vicious circles) to the IC vs OOC thing. If the guildleaders as a whole decide to make the mortal Cleric organization skew vastly towards the Light aspects (and risk ICly angering the Dark clerics or aspects), that's their prerogative, and it will be backed up with events and not just blanket mechanics changes. It's certainly possible.

I don't think anyone is saying that things are perfect as they stand, but there seems to be a rather huge gap between the people asking for better enforcement tools (and acknowledging that no, it is not perfect right now), and people wanting a blanket no-choice situation or massive automatic punishment. Compromise requires meeting in the middle, folks.


Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
Airanie whispers, "are you raising?"
>whisper air I don't deal with corpses.
Airanie whispers, "ah I'm sorry thought you were a cleric, my apologies"

>There already is one, in the form of a murder warrant.

True but that doesn't stop them from leaving and continually killing. Murder charges in my mind are secondary to the Cleric guild punishment.

-Entyycement

"To the best of my knowledge, no other guild has automatic expulsion from their guildhalls for violence, let alone penalties of the duration you're proposing."

I will invoke the Lagerby here- it was originally his suggestion. I really don't care what other guilds do. The barbarians guild could automatically kill any non-barb who walked in and i would be hunky dory with it. What I have proposed is not a penalty- it is a revocation of privelages, a restriction of the free access the the cleric's guild generally allows to outsiders.

"Again, this goes back (whee, vicious circles) to the IC vs OOC thing. If the guildleaders as a whole decide to make the mortal Cleric organization skew vastly towards the Light aspects (and risk ICly angering the Dark clerics or aspects), that's their prerogative, and it will be backed up with events and not just blanket mechanics changes. It's certainly possible."

Again- it is not a light vs dark thing. It is simply about whether the Clerics guild welcomes those who kill within the guild. A subset of this- those who kill clerics within the guild. As Lirrak said- its not a matter of what gods want, its what Guild leaders would or should encourage. To me this is entirely an IC issue. Its certainly easy enough for me to avoid the Crossing guild and all griefers who want to play there. But as the player of Flavius, I don't think the guild should be that way.

"I don't think anyone is saying that things are perfect as they stand, but there seems to be a rather huge gap between the people asking for better enforcement tools (and acknowledging that no, it is not perfect right now), and people wanting a blanket no-choice situation or massive automatic punishment. Compromise requires meeting in the middle, folks."

I thought my suggestion was a compromise- allow killing if someone can't wait for the victim to step out of the guild, just have there be serious repercussions- that are known ahead of time- so the player can make an informed choice.

The advocates for open season within the clerics guild always talk about how the ones getting killed have done something to deserve it- in other words- they are suffering the consequences of their actions. Let those who violate the hospitality of the guild suffer the consequences too.

Flavius

>>Good deal Lirrak. On a side note I was also thinking about the consequences for killing in our guild even if there isn't a Cleric in there at the time. What do you guys think? Should there still be a penalty?

Of course. PCs aren't the only ones in the realms, and the faceless masses would by necessity generally be far more vulnerable (assuming we could actually mess with them, that is...)

>>To the best of my knowledge, no other guild has automatic expulsion from their guildhalls for violence, let alone penalties of the duration you're proposing.

Warmage guilds might have some. The earth elemental warns you something like 3 times before dragging you down through the stone and into a a timeout room of sorts if you attempt to go into a warmage-only area. You get a really long stun and the only exit seems to be back out to the street, but otherwise no banishment effects preventing you from going back in.

I know they also do something with theft, but unsure if that's just informational or if they try to deal with the instigator. Probably can't fight in there, though.

J'Lo, no that other one
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html

I deleted a post of mine which was going beyond where I like to go. Nothing new is going on in this thread, time for me to check out of it until the next time.

Flavius

I pulled a couple posts.

Be a little more careful please folks, or I'm going to have to close down the thread.

Thanks.
Soveign

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If you have any questions and/or comments, please feel free to send them to me at MOD-Soveign@play.net, Senior Board Moderator Annwyl at DR-Annwyl@play.net or Board Supervisor Cecco at DR-Cecco@play.net.

>> If I were forced to choose a guild to self-identify with, it'd be Ranger or Moon Mage, depending on my mood.

Clearly you are not fit to participate in this discussion, then. Please vacate the premises.

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Rev. Reene

[Zukir] "Rawr! Down with Moonies!"