Previous Thread
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
About to start up a new Empath and I was wondering what the consensus was on training stealth? Those who train it, can you train it effectively in combat and do you find it overall useful? With the previous questions in mind, what would be a good armor type if I didn't train stealth? Any point in training parry or should I be good with just training shield/evasion?
Stealth exp for empaths is a little annoying at the moment compared to non-empaths. We don't have any "from stealth" attacks, and doing moves like shove from stealth doesn't seem to give you the exp something like poach or feint would. Just using hiding and stalking to train is a bit slow, but you probably won't notice that on a brand new character. (Of course, you can always use poach and whatnot on constructs.)
It's always nice to be able to avoid being targeted/engaged (assuming you can stealth on whatever you are fighting). You can heal someone or use Hand of Hodierna, and hide with REGEN up. You can heal your wounds passively with REGEN while hidden. Pretty nice. And the ability to self heal means you generally don't have to worry about wounds hindering your hiding.
Of course, assuming you win the contest, INNOCENCE will do the same thing.
>With the previous questions in mind, what would be a good armor type if I didn't train stealth?
Really protective chain. I don't know of many empaths that use plate or brig as their main armor.
Yes train parry.
1: No reason to miss out on TDPs.
2: You can get a little bit of brawling/other weapon EXP just by parrying with it. This is great if you are fighting non-constructs.
3: It doesn't take a lot of effort to train.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
It's always nice to be able to avoid being targeted/engaged (assuming you can stealth on whatever you are fighting). You can heal someone or use Hand of Hodierna, and hide with REGEN up. You can heal your wounds passively with REGEN while hidden. Pretty nice. And the ability to self heal means you generally don't have to worry about wounds hindering your hiding.
Of course, assuming you win the contest, INNOCENCE will do the same thing.
>With the previous questions in mind, what would be a good armor type if I didn't train stealth?
Really protective chain. I don't know of many empaths that use plate or brig as their main armor.
Yes train parry.
1: No reason to miss out on TDPs.
2: You can get a little bit of brawling/other weapon EXP just by parrying with it. This is great if you are fighting non-constructs.
3: It doesn't take a lot of effort to train.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
>>Kaelrx: Any point in training parry or should I be good with just training shield/evasion?
Everyone should train all three defenses.
>>Kaelrx: With the previous questions in mind, what would be a good armor type if I didn't train stealth?
My primary armor is lumium ring (lightened and tempered). Most armor-terts find heavier styles of armor to be too hindering. (The defensive penalties caused by hindrance may outweigh the added protection.)
To optimize stealth, you will want cloth armor. Padded heavy titanese armor is very good if you can afford it. Another option (less optimal) is to combine ring armor with cloth armor. (There are two other styles of chain armor, but ring is the lightest.)
Here is how my lumium ring shirt appraises if you were curious:
The ring shirt is chain armor.
The shirt looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that a lumium ring shirt appears to impose moderate (7/15) maneuvering hindrance and fair (5/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
moderate (4/15) protection and great (11/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and great (11/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
good (5/15) protection and great (11/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
good (5/15) protection and high (9/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
moderate (4/15) protection and high (9/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
fair (3/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
You are certain that the ring shirt is quite guarded against damage (12/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).
You are certain that the ring shirt weighs exactly 192 stones.
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Everyone should train all three defenses.
>>Kaelrx: With the previous questions in mind, what would be a good armor type if I didn't train stealth?
My primary armor is lumium ring (lightened and tempered). Most armor-terts find heavier styles of armor to be too hindering. (The defensive penalties caused by hindrance may outweigh the added protection.)
To optimize stealth, you will want cloth armor. Padded heavy titanese armor is very good if you can afford it. Another option (less optimal) is to combine ring armor with cloth armor. (There are two other styles of chain armor, but ring is the lightest.)
Here is how my lumium ring shirt appraises if you were curious:
The ring shirt is chain armor.
The shirt looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that a lumium ring shirt appears to impose moderate (7/15) maneuvering hindrance and fair (5/15) stealth hindrance, offering:
moderate (4/15) protection and great (11/18) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very good (6/15) protection and great (11/18) damage absorption for slice attacks.
good (5/15) protection and great (11/18) damage absorption for impact attacks.
good (5/15) protection and high (9/18) damage absorption for fire attacks.
moderate (4/15) protection and high (9/18) damage absorption for cold attacks.
fair (3/15) protection and very good (8/18) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
You are certain that the ring shirt is quite guarded against damage (12/18), and is in pristine condition (98-100%).
You are certain that the ring shirt weighs exactly 192 stones.
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
I train stealth on my empath without much trouble. We tend to have the discipline to support it, even if we don't have access to a stealth buff outside of sorcery. I like stealth on the empath because not everything reacts to innocence the way you hope. I wear cloth armor. Eventually cloth will be nerfed, but for now it has a favorable protection:stealth penalty ratio.
Train all your defenses, you will need them.
If you stay in combat, skinning or locksmithing make nice alternatives for that last survival. That way you can skip athleticism if you don't like working that particular skill. GS is good for this.
Train all your defenses, you will need them.
If you stay in combat, skinning or locksmithing make nice alternatives for that last survival. That way you can skip athleticism if you don't like working that particular skill. GS is good for this.
I'll echo the "stick with one armor type" advice. For me, it's been adding 2 levels of hindrance to mix light and chain.
Another consideration with learning parry, aside from the practical points that Sarkranis brought up, is that some of the "battle" empath titles have parry requirements. So either look at that as something you need to learn for those titles, or a hint that we should just be learning it anyway.
Another consideration with learning parry, aside from the practical points that Sarkranis brought up, is that some of the "battle" empath titles have parry requirements. So either look at that as something you need to learn for those titles, or a hint that we should just be learning it anyway.
>>Chiefcrazychicken: I'll echo the "stick with one armor type" advice. For me, it's been adding 2 levels of hindrance to mix light and chain.
Performance-wise, there is no doubt that it is best to wear one type of armor. However, to most players it feels like you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't take advantage of the extra TDPs that come from training additional armors.
At first the TDP gain will be minimal, but you get many more as you move up in ranks. Even training one extra armor skill can result in significant TDPs.
TDPS FROM TRAINING ARMOR
So if you want the TDPs, there are two options: you can either wear a mixed armor setup, or you can buy a full suit of armor for each armor skill you want to train. Here are the disadvantages to each approach:
Mixed Armor
1. Mixed Armor Penalty: You receive additional maneuvering hindrance (but not additional stealth hindrance) for wearing more than one type of armor at the same time. In other words, your total maneuvering hindrance will be greater than the sum of all pieces of armor. The more types of armor you are wearing, the greater the penalty.
2. Not Optimized for Stealth: Training stealth is much more difficult if you are wearing anything but light armor. The more chain, brigandine, and plate coverage you have, the more difficult it is to be stealthy.
Separate Suits of Armor
1. Armor weighs a lot, and the burden is increased when you are carrying it (as opposed to wearing it). You will find this to be especially true early in the game, when you don't yet have a lot of strength and stamina. So you will either have to carry the extra suits around with you or make constant trips to your vault to swap armor.
2. It costs more money to buy multiple suits of armor, especially if you are using rare materials.
Which approach you take depends on your play-style (how much you want/need to optimize hindrance and stealth).
Right now I have an all-chain setup and some cloth accessories that I can swap in when I want to train light armor. (My character is not very stealthy.)
a grey-scale targe
a lumium ring balaclava
a lumium ring shirt
some lumium ring gloves
some lumium ring greaves
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly (5/14) hindered and your stealth is somewhat (6/14) hindered.
a grey-scale targe
a padded heavy titanese hood
a padded heavy titanese mask
a lumium ring shirt
some padded heavy titanese gloves
some padded heavy titanese pants
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently somewhat (6/14) hindered and your stealth is somewhat (6/14) hindered.
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Performance-wise, there is no doubt that it is best to wear one type of armor. However, to most players it feels like you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't take advantage of the extra TDPs that come from training additional armors.
At first the TDP gain will be minimal, but you get many more as you move up in ranks. Even training one extra armor skill can result in significant TDPs.
TDPS FROM TRAINING ARMOR
| Ranks | 1 Armor | 2 Armors | 3 Armors | 4 Armors |
| 50 | 6 | 12 | 18 | 24 |
| 100 | 25 | 50 | 75 | 100 |
| 150 | 56 | 112 | 168 | 224 |
| 200 | 100 | 200 | 300 | 400 |
| 300 | 225 | 450 | 675 | 900 |
| 400 | 401 | 802 | 1,203 | 1,604 |
| 500 | 626 | 1,252 | 1,878 | 2,504 |
| 750 | 1,408 | 2,816 | 4,224 | 5,632 |
| 1,000 | 2,502 | 5,004 | 7,506 | 10,008 |
| 1,500 | 5,628 | 11,256 | 16,884 | 22,512 |
| 1,750 | 7,660 | 15,320 | 22,980 | 30,640 |
So if you want the TDPs, there are two options: you can either wear a mixed armor setup, or you can buy a full suit of armor for each armor skill you want to train. Here are the disadvantages to each approach:
Mixed Armor
1. Mixed Armor Penalty: You receive additional maneuvering hindrance (but not additional stealth hindrance) for wearing more than one type of armor at the same time. In other words, your total maneuvering hindrance will be greater than the sum of all pieces of armor. The more types of armor you are wearing, the greater the penalty.
2. Not Optimized for Stealth: Training stealth is much more difficult if you are wearing anything but light armor. The more chain, brigandine, and plate coverage you have, the more difficult it is to be stealthy.
Separate Suits of Armor
1. Armor weighs a lot, and the burden is increased when you are carrying it (as opposed to wearing it). You will find this to be especially true early in the game, when you don't yet have a lot of strength and stamina. So you will either have to carry the extra suits around with you or make constant trips to your vault to swap armor.
2. It costs more money to buy multiple suits of armor, especially if you are using rare materials.
Which approach you take depends on your play-style (how much you want/need to optimize hindrance and stealth).
Right now I have an all-chain setup and some cloth accessories that I can swap in when I want to train light armor. (My character is not very stealthy.)
a grey-scale targe
a lumium ring balaclava
a lumium ring shirt
some lumium ring gloves
some lumium ring greaves
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly (5/14) hindered and your stealth is somewhat (6/14) hindered.
a grey-scale targe
a padded heavy titanese hood
a padded heavy titanese mask
a lumium ring shirt
some padded heavy titanese gloves
some padded heavy titanese pants
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently somewhat (6/14) hindered and your stealth is somewhat (6/14) hindered.
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>>Kaelrx: Many thanks for all the helpful answers! Anyone know when abouts you can start doing health walks in the crossing successfully?
As soon as you can start perceiving non-Empaths in the same room. This starts to happen at about 50 ranks (average of empathy and attunement).
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
As soon as you can start perceiving non-Empaths in the same room. This starts to happen at about 50 ranks (average of empathy and attunement).
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>Kaelrx: Many thanks for all the helpful answers! Anyone know when abouts you can start doing health walks in the crossing successfully?
>Sarkranis: As soon as you can start perceiving non-Empaths in the same room. This starts to happen at about 50 ranks (average of empathy and attunement).
From personal experience don't take the average as gospel. I ran an Empath that had a difference in excess of 100 ranks between what is now Attunement and Empathy it wasn't until my Empathy was close to 50, 75, 100, etc. that I saw the next steps.
Asbhuan
>Sarkranis: As soon as you can start perceiving non-Empaths in the same room. This starts to happen at about 50 ranks (average of empathy and attunement).
From personal experience don't take the average as gospel. I ran an Empath that had a difference in excess of 100 ranks between what is now Attunement and Empathy it wasn't until my Empathy was close to 50, 75, 100, etc. that I saw the next steps.
Asbhuan
If you use a parry stick and train parry, you'll learn a little bit of brawling. (My mind state after locking everything else in a non-construct hunting area is usually ~4/34. It keeps it moving, so while you won't learn it at the same rate as parry, you'll be able to learn.)
I'd highly recommend running into constructs whenever you can, though. Origami constructs near Dirge are just after rats and might be a good option for you, assuming you're on the Crossing side of the river. Not only can you learn brawling and other weapons, but the tactics skill is much faster to lock in active combat using analyze and then the combo than just circle, circle, circle.
I'd highly recommend running into constructs whenever you can, though. Origami constructs near Dirge are just after rats and might be a good option for you, assuming you're on the Crossing side of the river. Not only can you learn brawling and other weapons, but the tactics skill is much faster to lock in active combat using analyze and then the combo than just circle, circle, circle.
I think its a difference in combat styles. Manipulation seems to kill the things I'm hunting more efficiently than my avenger. Since I'm not using my mana for the avenger, I can snap cast NB, which makes the manipulated creature kill things much faster. I run my avenger at 15-20 mana (depending on room mana levels) which lets me do it almost indefinitely, but at the cost of casting other spells. Also, I by no means think I'm the most efficient trainer out there, so I'm probably not optimizing my tactics training.
I hope I didn't imply that tactics can only be learned in construct combat, because I definitely incorporate it into my regular training, but it locks long after TM and Debil for me and the only thing that I train that you don't seems to be appraisal (which I bet you train in combat, too).
This isn't exactly a "new empath" question, but maybe I can pick your brain...What is the secret to hunting with an avenger? They just seem so slow at level compared to manipulation that I haven't bothered with it much outside of quests and invasions. I know empaths who love them, but I've just sort of viewed it as a useful, but niche, spell. (The likely possibility is that I'm just set in my preference of the play-style by manipulation.)
One of the things I like about playing an empath is that there are so many play-styles and combat-styles that there's no way every player can know everything about all of them (or even a lot about any of them!).
I hope I didn't imply that tactics can only be learned in construct combat, because I definitely incorporate it into my regular training, but it locks long after TM and Debil for me and the only thing that I train that you don't seems to be appraisal (which I bet you train in combat, too).
This isn't exactly a "new empath" question, but maybe I can pick your brain...What is the secret to hunting with an avenger? They just seem so slow at level compared to manipulation that I haven't bothered with it much outside of quests and invasions. I know empaths who love them, but I've just sort of viewed it as a useful, but niche, spell. (The likely possibility is that I'm just set in my preference of the play-style by manipulation.)
One of the things I like about playing an empath is that there are so many play-styles and combat-styles that there's no way every player can know everything about all of them (or even a lot about any of them!).
It's higher than all of my combats except for tactics and evasion (and defending, but that's roughly equivalent.) I have no problem using Paralyze in combat, and the avenger will make strong hits, it's just slow.
I'm probably not explaining the problem I'm running into very clearly. So, to give an example of what I'm talking about is this: If I cast GS at 15 mana, it will eventually reach equilibrium with my mana regen once my attunement drops to ~10% or so. I can't cast NB to help my avenger along without dropping my mana below that threshold. I can cast the occasional paralyze and Lethargy, but neither has the destabilizing effect of NB. When manipulating, my typical hunting practice is manipulate a celpeze, prep nb, wait 4 seconds, cast, face the celp the manipulated one is advancing on, target paralyze, wait for full prep (while working appraisal and tactics here) then cast. If I repeat the spell casting cycle a couple times, I've got a dead creature on the ground for me to skin. The biggest difficulty is keeping track of when my manipulation link drops so I can make a new one.
Although this doesn't hold true for every creature, my avenger and a celpeze do about the same amount of damage to other celpeze if unassisted. It's my ability to cast NB at min prep that's the difference. I'm wondering what I should be doing that I'm not. I came back a few months ago, and while I've done a lot of experimenting with spells and techniques, I'm sure there are a lot of tips and tricks that people take for granted that I just don't know!
I'm probably not explaining the problem I'm running into very clearly. So, to give an example of what I'm talking about is this: If I cast GS at 15 mana, it will eventually reach equilibrium with my mana regen once my attunement drops to ~10% or so. I can't cast NB to help my avenger along without dropping my mana below that threshold. I can cast the occasional paralyze and Lethargy, but neither has the destabilizing effect of NB. When manipulating, my typical hunting practice is manipulate a celpeze, prep nb, wait 4 seconds, cast, face the celp the manipulated one is advancing on, target paralyze, wait for full prep (while working appraisal and tactics here) then cast. If I repeat the spell casting cycle a couple times, I've got a dead creature on the ground for me to skin. The biggest difficulty is keeping track of when my manipulation link drops so I can make a new one.
Although this doesn't hold true for every creature, my avenger and a celpeze do about the same amount of damage to other celpeze if unassisted. It's my ability to cast NB at min prep that's the difference. I'm wondering what I should be doing that I'm not. I came back a few months ago, and while I've done a lot of experimenting with spells and techniques, I'm sure there are a lot of tips and tricks that people take for granted that I just don't know!
>>What is the secret to hunting with an avenger?
In addition to TM skill, it's really important how much mana you cast the spell at. I can't stress that enough since I talk to a lot of people who cast GS at minimum mana and find it to be weak in combat. At 20 mana my GS appraises at a range that seems to indicate it's on par with my TM, anything below that it's often weaker than what I'm fighting. Anything over 20 mana seems to help to buff it if I'm fighting a more powerful creature.
For anyone wondering what specifically I mean by what it appraises at, you can appraise your GS careful, then also appraise whatever type of creature you are fighting. While all of the fields will give you some good information, I have found that the stat appraisals and the "how well it trains TM" are the best indicators of its strength. If your GS will train your TM poorly, but the creature you are fighting would train you rather well, there's a noticeable strength difference.
Vigor helps boost the stats noticeably with appraise as well, but I've never noticed much of a TM experience different with or without. I would assume with you would get more since it's more damage, but it's not a large amount.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
In addition to TM skill, it's really important how much mana you cast the spell at. I can't stress that enough since I talk to a lot of people who cast GS at minimum mana and find it to be weak in combat. At 20 mana my GS appraises at a range that seems to indicate it's on par with my TM, anything below that it's often weaker than what I'm fighting. Anything over 20 mana seems to help to buff it if I'm fighting a more powerful creature.
For anyone wondering what specifically I mean by what it appraises at, you can appraise your GS careful, then also appraise whatever type of creature you are fighting. While all of the fields will give you some good information, I have found that the stat appraisals and the "how well it trains TM" are the best indicators of its strength. If your GS will train your TM poorly, but the creature you are fighting would train you rather well, there's a noticeable strength difference.
Vigor helps boost the stats noticeably with appraise as well, but I've never noticed much of a TM experience different with or without. I would assume with you would get more since it's more damage, but it's not a large amount.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
>Vigor helps boost the stats noticeably with appraise as well, but I've never noticed much of a TM experience different with or without. I would assume with you would get more since it's more damage, but it's not a large amount.
Yeah I wish there was some more information provided.
As for hunting w/o a GS, I find my GS kills gryphons pretty quick. I should set up a routine to prevent the GS from squaring off against my manipulated critter, but truthfully, it doesn't seem to really matter.
Also on "GS attack speed" I have noticed both mudmen and zombies attack a lot faster than the GS. Even necro-pets created by someone with considerably less skill attack more often.
No idea if there's a reason for this, but it's likely intended since necros pets should be better in some regards. (They are THE 'pet guild'.)
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
No idea if there's a reason for this, but it's likely intended since necros pets should be better in some regards. (They are THE 'pet guild'.)
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
