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One of the only stat-boosting spells for our guild and...
...it has to have not just one moon, but two.
...if the moons aren't up, you have to create and lug around all kinds of shards
...the duration of the spell really isn't that impressive
...the stat boost doesn't seem to be miraculous
This spell is pretty much a downer overall.
::end of whining::
On the other hand, it is impressive-"looking" at least. Nice job to whoever wrote the descriptions.
-Maconaie
My only real complaint about this spell right now is that it can't be used indoors or even with a window, you have to be totally outdoors.
This excludes many of my hunting grounds. :( Moonblades work indoors, why not IOE?
Rev. Reene
"The time will come when the sun will shine only on free men who know no other master but their reason." - Nicolas de Condorcet
This excludes many of my hunting grounds. :( Moonblades work indoors, why not IOE?
Rev. Reene
"The time will come when the sun will shine only on free men who know no other master but their reason." - Nicolas de Condorcet
Though I can agree with you that the duration isn't great, and it's a pain to cast. I feel it's a fair trade off for it's power. Unless it's changed since I tested it back when they changed INFO to add total amount of kronars and whatnot, the highest I found the boost is 16 points. That in itself is a very fair trade off for its stipulations
>I shall become wroth with you if you get my Bene nerfed :P
I'm not trying to get it nerfed, nor to have IoE be a copy of it. I understand Benediction is supposed to be the pinnacle of stat boosting spells, the chain lighting if you will. I'm using it as a comparison because I don't think the drawbacks of IoE are balanced well.
The unique aspect of IoE is that it can buff different stats. And yet, I can't boost the specific combinations that I want (Int/Wis? Char/disc?). Nor can I boost the stats I want to boost the most (Str/Stam). So when I think about the spell, I think of it mainly as an agility/reflex buff, and in that sense it is absolutely inferior to other spells/abilities out there, all things considered.
I'm hoping that IoE gets some attention with the magic rewrite.
I'm not trying to get it nerfed, nor to have IoE be a copy of it. I understand Benediction is supposed to be the pinnacle of stat boosting spells, the chain lighting if you will. I'm using it as a comparison because I don't think the drawbacks of IoE are balanced well.
The unique aspect of IoE is that it can buff different stats. And yet, I can't boost the specific combinations that I want (Int/Wis? Char/disc?). Nor can I boost the stats I want to boost the most (Str/Stam). So when I think about the spell, I think of it mainly as an agility/reflex buff, and in that sense it is absolutely inferior to other spells/abilities out there, all things considered.
I'm hoping that IoE gets some attention with the magic rewrite.
IOE is one of my favorite spells and one of our most powerful even with the drawbacks. The only thing i'd really like to change is to make the duration longer. I don't think it's to unbalancing considering the full prep requirement. Or just do away with full prep and leave duration the same.
Higher duration would be nice as well.
I still really want to be able to use it indoors. It's fine if you get a bonus for casting it outside, but it makes me sad when I am in warklins or something and can't use IoE when I really need to.
Rev. Reene
"The time will come when the sun will shine only on free men who know no other master but their reason." - Nicolas de Condorcet
I still really want to be able to use it indoors. It's fine if you get a bonus for casting it outside, but it makes me sad when I am in warklins or something and can't use IoE when I really need to.
Rev. Reene
"The time will come when the sun will shine only on free men who know no other master but their reason." - Nicolas de Condorcet
Hasn't Dart or Armifer written once or twice pretty clearly how IOE was developed and balanced?
I understand why you aren't as happy with it as you would like to be, but to paraphrase the CL argument- the proper comparison is not Benediction and IOE, the proper comparison in my opinion is IOE vs Bear Strength or Cheetah Swiftness or Marshall's Order.
I understand why you aren't as happy with it as you would like to be, but to paraphrase the CL argument- the proper comparison is not Benediction and IOE, the proper comparison in my opinion is IOE vs Bear Strength or Cheetah Swiftness or Marshall's Order.
>>I understand why you aren't as happy with it as you would like to be, but to paraphrase the CL argument- the proper comparison is not Benediction and IOE, the proper comparison in my opinion is IOE vs Bear Strength or Cheetah Swiftness or Marshall's Order.
Yes, because the proper comparison is with Tert magic...
TG, TG, GL, et al.
Also: Moo.
Yes, because the proper comparison is with Tert magic...
TG, TG, GL, et al.
Also: Moo.
>>Yes, because the proper comparison is with Tert magic...
The placement of the magic skills in the guild's skillset is not a factor in deciding how powerful a spell becomes so much as a guild's "sphere of influence" (to quote the popular term recently used by Zeyurn when explaining Magic 3.0). Paladin defensive buffs are, I think, a good example of this.
So yes, comparison with magic tert guilds is fine.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
The placement of the magic skills in the guild's skillset is not a factor in deciding how powerful a spell becomes so much as a guild's "sphere of influence" (to quote the popular term recently used by Zeyurn when explaining Magic 3.0). Paladin defensive buffs are, I think, a good example of this.
So yes, comparison with magic tert guilds is fine.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
Last time this came up Armifer basically said that IoE was somewhat of an experiment and he was willing to admit perhaps it was somewhat of a failed experiment if I recall correctly.
That was when we got the shard weight nerfed to 1 stone - so that helps a little.
I agree - longer duration would rock.
Also for the record the max boost is actually +18 (night) and +15 (day).
That said in the current way stats work - I think most of us could agree the ones outside of Ref/Agil boosting are of highly limited use.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
That was when we got the shard weight nerfed to 1 stone - so that helps a little.
I agree - longer duration would rock.
Also for the record the max boost is actually +18 (night) and +15 (day).
That said in the current way stats work - I think most of us could agree the ones outside of Ref/Agil boosting are of highly limited use.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
>>Last time this came up Armifer basically said that IoE was somewhat of an experiment and he was willing to admit perhaps it was somewhat of a failed experiment if I recall correctly.
You're thinking of Tenebrous Sense, actually. I never recall IoE being called a failed experiment.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
You're thinking of Tenebrous Sense, actually. I never recall IoE being called a failed experiment.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
He made a similar comment about TS - though the strong implication there is that the spell would die and we'd retain the ability through a cantrip or some such thing.
I'd go looking for the quotes but... DR forums... so yeah.
Particularly when I already know the last IoE conversation is already being pushed off the forums wen I looked for it about a month back.
... okay I admit it, I looked. Either they're not in the folder I thought or they've been pushed off (Fairly sure that's the case).
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
I'd go looking for the quotes but... DR forums... so yeah.
Particularly when I already know the last IoE conversation is already being pushed off the forums wen I looked for it about a month back.
... okay I admit it, I looked. Either they're not in the folder I thought or they've been pushed off (Fairly sure that's the case).
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
the moonie forums are slightly more active then some of the other ones. Though thats mostly because you and cael. Damn forum monkeys <3 <3 <3.
I love IoE but it does have drawbacks, we should be able to cast it indoors though, if anything just make it you can only cast it indoors with shards. Cause it makes no sense that I can draw moonlight from something in my hand.
If your not seeing significant numbers from the boosts one of two things(or possibly both) are happening:
1) Your not casting with high enough mana, this spell is hard to cast and takes a significant amount of PM to really juice it.
2) It boosts relative to your stats, so its impossible to get the full boost from the spell with sub-40 in that stat, you'll hit a soft cap.
That being said, I disagree with the stat combos being worthless they are actually the most efficient. Int/Wis don't help learning rates, so it increases concentration and WvW contests. I get a rather large concentration boost about 18% if not more from this spell. Intel and Discipline maximize these attributes.
For protection against spirit spells your best defense is Wis and Chr, again the other combination. Then theres the Agi/Ref boost. Its a quite noticeable difference.
Spell presents many problems though, using shards helps make it at least somewhat useful, but the duration is sadly undesirable. It causes a rather large consumption of shards. Five minutes more at max and I'd stop complaining. Thats all I'd ask for, just five more minutes, it'd bring it inline with all my other buffs.
_______________________
I want to confess all my sins. But my heart is empty. That emptiness is a Mirror and when I stare into it I only see my reflection and feel insolence and rage.
-The Seventh Seal
I love IoE but it does have drawbacks, we should be able to cast it indoors though, if anything just make it you can only cast it indoors with shards. Cause it makes no sense that I can draw moonlight from something in my hand.
If your not seeing significant numbers from the boosts one of two things(or possibly both) are happening:
1) Your not casting with high enough mana, this spell is hard to cast and takes a significant amount of PM to really juice it.
2) It boosts relative to your stats, so its impossible to get the full boost from the spell with sub-40 in that stat, you'll hit a soft cap.
That being said, I disagree with the stat combos being worthless they are actually the most efficient. Int/Wis don't help learning rates, so it increases concentration and WvW contests. I get a rather large concentration boost about 18% if not more from this spell. Intel and Discipline maximize these attributes.
For protection against spirit spells your best defense is Wis and Chr, again the other combination. Then theres the Agi/Ref boost. Its a quite noticeable difference.
Spell presents many problems though, using shards helps make it at least somewhat useful, but the duration is sadly undesirable. It causes a rather large consumption of shards. Five minutes more at max and I'd stop complaining. Thats all I'd ask for, just five more minutes, it'd bring it inline with all my other buffs.
_______________________
I want to confess all my sins. But my heart is empty. That emptiness is a Mirror and when I stare into it I only see my reflection and feel insolence and rage.
-The Seventh Seal
>>ARGH THE DEFENSIVE SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT CLERICS ARE TURNING INTO WMS ITS ALL HAPPENING
I'm sorry! It's a habit from years of playing a Cleric. They were the step-children of the magic primaries for a long time, which led to defensiveness whenever someone whined about one of their two good abilities or proposed a carbon copy for another guild, and it's a habit. Admittedly the step-child status stopped being true a long time ago; if the spell releases planned for this year actually drop, I may be forced to do the unthinkable and... retire my Barbaria for a few months to circle-chase another guild.
From an objective perspective I can see how IoE's restrictions might be too severe to make it practical for usage resembling anything near normal.
1) Increased duration
2) Increased convenience (i.e. ability to cast indoors)
3) Ability to mix and match stat buffs (like discipline/reflex for example)
Also from an objective perspective, however, IoE has the ability to boost six of the eight stats in the game by 15+ points, and it boosts more than one at once. If I desired all of the aforementioned changes, however, I'd also personally expect a reduction in the strength of the boost.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
I'm sorry! It's a habit from years of playing a Cleric. They were the step-children of the magic primaries for a long time, which led to defensiveness whenever someone whined about one of their two good abilities or proposed a carbon copy for another guild, and it's a habit. Admittedly the step-child status stopped being true a long time ago; if the spell releases planned for this year actually drop, I may be forced to do the unthinkable and... retire my Barbaria for a few months to circle-chase another guild.
From an objective perspective I can see how IoE's restrictions might be too severe to make it practical for usage resembling anything near normal.
1) Increased duration
2) Increased convenience (i.e. ability to cast indoors)
3) Ability to mix and match stat buffs (like discipline/reflex for example)
Also from an objective perspective, however, IoE has the ability to boost six of the eight stats in the game by 15+ points, and it boosts more than one at once. If I desired all of the aforementioned changes, however, I'd also personally expect a reduction in the strength of the boost.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
Keep in mind despite it "being able to boost six stats" it can only ever do 2 at a time. Going above that uh... kills you.
Furthermore it's only only source of stat boosting. Compare that to say, clerics, who can boost four stats at once.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
Furthermore it's only only source of stat boosting. Compare that to say, clerics, who can boost four stats at once.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
>> Keep in mind despite it "being able to boost six stats" it can only ever do 2 at a time. Going above that uh... kills you.
Yes, I know. I reworded that sentence like eight times but it always seemed too verbose; perhaps I was a little too concise this time.
>>Furthermore it's only only source of stat boosting. Compare that to say, clerics, who can boost four stats at once.
To get the grand total to four stats we have to use more than one spell (Barbarians get four stats, of comparable strength, in one ability, but that's entirely beside the point). That's an apples to oranges comparison; for simplicity's sake I think we should stick with apples to apples.
I intentionally avoided cross-guild comparison. I agree that the spell could be made more useful, or more convenient, or more versatile, or what-have-you. Asking for all of the above makes my game design spider-sense tingle, however; assuming the spell's "value" is going to remain relatively constant, instituting several changes that swing its value dramatically up seems to beg a counter-balance of some sort. At least to me, but maybe I'm funny.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
Yes, I know. I reworded that sentence like eight times but it always seemed too verbose; perhaps I was a little too concise this time.
>>Furthermore it's only only source of stat boosting. Compare that to say, clerics, who can boost four stats at once.
To get the grand total to four stats we have to use more than one spell (Barbarians get four stats, of comparable strength, in one ability, but that's entirely beside the point). That's an apples to oranges comparison; for simplicity's sake I think we should stick with apples to apples.
I intentionally avoided cross-guild comparison. I agree that the spell could be made more useful, or more convenient, or more versatile, or what-have-you. Asking for all of the above makes my game design spider-sense tingle, however; assuming the spell's "value" is going to remain relatively constant, instituting several changes that swing its value dramatically up seems to beg a counter-balance of some sort. At least to me, but maybe I'm funny.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
I don't think anyone is seriously asking for IoE to be buffed. They're just asking for it to not be quite so irritating to use - be that through less hoops to jump through, longer duration or whatnot. (/tangent WHY, why, WHY can't Seer's and AuS be replaceable? BLARG!)
Benediction should be as good as buff spells get. It's the best of the best, and it shall not be approached. That's fine.
However I'm fairly sure if you took every single restriction off of IoE (No irritating reagents, no killing you if you mess up, no need to be under a totally open sky, no double full prep time, only 2 stats at once. You could even leave in the quirky fluxes in power depending on if it's day or night and what moons are up) and said "You can have this or you can have benediction" 95% of mages would take benediction in a heartbeat.
Which says to be there's a lot of ground between where IoE is now and it being too good.
EDIT: WTB Edit button.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
Benediction should be as good as buff spells get. It's the best of the best, and it shall not be approached. That's fine.
However I'm fairly sure if you took every single restriction off of IoE (No irritating reagents, no killing you if you mess up, no need to be under a totally open sky, no double full prep time, only 2 stats at once. You could even leave in the quirky fluxes in power depending on if it's day or night and what moons are up) and said "You can have this or you can have benediction" 95% of mages would take benediction in a heartbeat.
Which says to be there's a lot of ground between where IoE is now and it being too good.
EDIT: WTB Edit button.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
>However I'm fairly sure if you took every single restriction off of IoE (No irritating reagents, no killing you if you mess up, no need to be under a totally open sky, no double full prep time, only 2 stats at once. You could even leave in the quirky fluxes in power depending on if it's day or night and what moons are up) and said "You can have this or you can have benediction" 95% of mages would take benediction in a heartbeat.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my first post. Making the shards weigh less, while being a victory for realism, did not significantly change the spells utility.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my first post. Making the shards weigh less, while being a victory for realism, did not significantly change the spells utility.
Between Benediction and a restriction-free IoE I'd personally take IoE. However, that is because I would happily slaughter a million innocent Inkhornes for a discipline booster on my Cleric, and obviously not due to some short-coming on Benediction's part.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
I actually kind of like the mix-and-match nature of the spell.
Each individual drawback on its own isn't so bad. It's when you stack them all up and look at the package as a whole that I get kind of meh.
I'd really like to be able to use IOE but there's not much of a chance of me moving into a purely outdoor hunting area any time soon.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
Each individual drawback on its own isn't so bad. It's when you stack them all up and look at the package as a whole that I get kind of meh.
I'd really like to be able to use IOE but there's not much of a chance of me moving into a purely outdoor hunting area any time soon.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
The only other spells(besides Benediction, because we aren't comparing to Benediction) that I can think of that boosts two stats are Bear Strength and Cheetah Swiftness- but they are held mana. Would it be better if IOE were a simple held mana spell similar to those two?
Or would you prefer single boosts like Paladins have- they have 4 different single stat boosting spells
Or would you prefer single boosts like Paladins have- they have 4 different single stat boosting spells
<<I use IOE in my pre-hunt buffing, but when it wears off in the middle I just don't bother running outside to cast it again. >>
I definately include it in my protocol for exercising all defensive precautions before knowingly entering a dangerous situation. Usually my business doesn't take as long as the duration, so it's useful to me.
That said, in order for this to be an everyday utility spell, it seems a bit cumbersome to cast it twice (possibly requiring a component which requires a preplanned time investment, plus keeping up with the bits), outdoors only, full prep required, etc, for a realtively average duration.
As a special occasion spell, it's okay, but would need a little more umph to really get me excited about it.
The messaging is cool.
I definately include it in my protocol for exercising all defensive precautions before knowingly entering a dangerous situation. Usually my business doesn't take as long as the duration, so it's useful to me.
That said, in order for this to be an everyday utility spell, it seems a bit cumbersome to cast it twice (possibly requiring a component which requires a preplanned time investment, plus keeping up with the bits), outdoors only, full prep required, etc, for a realtively average duration.
As a special occasion spell, it's okay, but would need a little more umph to really get me excited about it.
The messaging is cool.
