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I'm sure this has been answered previously, but the forums have a limited search functionality so it is difficult to find.
One question I've often had as a newbie necro is: Why are Necros Survival primary and not magic primary? It seems that we are a magic heavy guild still in development, which would indicate that we'll likely have more spells in the future, and a much more limited number of spell slots. Was that decision made just to keep us from having an identical skillset to Moonmages?
I love hiding and skulking around the edges of society, but when I think of necros I always traditionally think of mages that have decided to tinker with life and death in various magical ways, not as corrupted rangers with a more magical focus.
-Apedemak
>>One question I've often had as a newbie necro is: Why are Necros Survival primary and not magic primary?
The importance of not getting caught vastly outweighs the fact that Necromantic Sorcery itself, go figure!
>>It seems that we are a magic heavy guild still in development, which would indicate that we'll likely have more spells in the future, and a much more limited number of spell slots.
The development is less "magical development" and more "Risen development". The big "thing" Necromancers will have are Risen, and AFAIK that'll be Thanatology driven more than magic-driven.
>>Was that decision made just to keep us from having an identical skillset to Moonmages?
Armifer (I think) once mentioned that Necros at one point were proposed as being Armor primary. Personally, I question if Lore Primary (and Magic/Survival Secondary) might have been an interesting stance, too, given how "hidden/forbidden research" they are lore-wise. Also, explicitly/blatantly mirroring the Empath guild's skillset placement would have been pretty funny, too.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The importance of not getting caught vastly outweighs the fact that Necromantic Sorcery itself, go figure!
>>It seems that we are a magic heavy guild still in development, which would indicate that we'll likely have more spells in the future, and a much more limited number of spell slots.
The development is less "magical development" and more "Risen development". The big "thing" Necromancers will have are Risen, and AFAIK that'll be Thanatology driven more than magic-driven.
>>Was that decision made just to keep us from having an identical skillset to Moonmages?
Armifer (I think) once mentioned that Necros at one point were proposed as being Armor primary. Personally, I question if Lore Primary (and Magic/Survival Secondary) might have been an interesting stance, too, given how "hidden/forbidden research" they are lore-wise. Also, explicitly/blatantly mirroring the Empath guild's skillset placement would have been pretty funny, too.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It wasn't a formal proposal so much as a request that I consider making Necromancers an Armor-Primary guild with their major Thing being a suit of "living" armor that grew and did things.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
>>It wasn't a formal proposal so much as a request that I consider making Necromancers an Armor-Primary guild with their major Thing being a suit of "living" armor that grew and did things.
Seeing as that didn't pan out, you can totally swap living for Holy and aim it at paladins <3. Just sayin'
Samsaren
Seeing as that didn't pan out, you can totally swap living for Holy and aim it at paladins <3. Just sayin'
Samsaren
It's a very tight spellbook, I'll give it that. You very quickly pass the point where you need to pick up this or that spell to feel "complete" as a character. I'm a little bored by our debilitation options and our TM is a little lackluster in places, but it's otherwise pretty good.
I do kind of wish we did more with being survival prime.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
I do kind of wish we did more with being survival prime.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
I think that's an issue of Stealth being a somewhat outdated and clunky system. I'd still love for it to be more akin to Tactics, having a set of maneuvers that do a thing. HIDE/ATTACK or HIDE/VIVISECT is really a pretty dull way of interfacing with it.
The only two improvements to the spellbook I'd like, given what's coming with the barrier rewrite, is an offensive anti-magic, which can be sort of fixed with Dispel, and for VoD to be made AoE or even better, an AoE cyclic.
It's honestly not just stealth, it's that to me the majority of the survival skillset is boring. I realize this is probably just my problem. I have never liked survival prime and I play Necromancer despite it, not because of it.
HP is disgustingly good, but for the rest I feel like there was room to run with the "primal terror" idea to produce effects that are more interesting than a few seconds of immobilization. VOD was a nice idea, but it has obvious issues that have been brought up before so I won't belabor that. Vivisection is frankly lackluster but that's not Vivisection's fault. Offensive anti-magic is another good area we're lacking in; WORM puts us in a pretty good place in terms of shutting down magic aimed at us but we can't do anything about someone buffed to the teeth.
I think many of our spells could stand to synergize better with stealth in general. I would like to be able to use a few of our debilitators from hiding without breaking stealth for example -- PV and whatever VOD ends up being at least. I don't think Vivisection should be our only "use from hiding" spell/ability. We're survival prime, which is really just "stealth prime," and our abilities should act more like it.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
HP is disgustingly good, but for the rest I feel like there was room to run with the "primal terror" idea to produce effects that are more interesting than a few seconds of immobilization. VOD was a nice idea, but it has obvious issues that have been brought up before so I won't belabor that. Vivisection is frankly lackluster but that's not Vivisection's fault. Offensive anti-magic is another good area we're lacking in; WORM puts us in a pretty good place in terms of shutting down magic aimed at us but we can't do anything about someone buffed to the teeth.
I think many of our spells could stand to synergize better with stealth in general. I would like to be able to use a few of our debilitators from hiding without breaking stealth for example -- PV and whatever VOD ends up being at least. I don't think Vivisection should be our only "use from hiding" spell/ability. We're survival prime, which is really just "stealth prime," and our abilities should act more like it.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>>You very quickly pass the point where you need to pick up this or that spell to feel "complete" as a character.
IMO the only real spell goals are SRE and CFB and those get hit pretty fast.
>>I have never liked survival prime and I play Necromancer despite it, not because of it.
Yeah, I definitely play a Necro for the interest in the character type than "But this skillset though". In its defense, though, I don't think I've ever been pumped about a class due to skillset allocation. I eyed Bard and Trader a bit once Crafting came out, but nothing came of it.
IMO, the major weakness of the survival skillset is that there's no meat to it, and most of them are specific-goal oriented. Need to dodge? Evasion. Need to swim/climb? Athletics. Need to open a box? Locksmithing. Need to forage/harvest materials? Outdoorsmanship. There's no "Oh man this weapon makes picking staves so cool" or "this is DEFINITELY why I love light armor". Magic is very goal oriented like that, too, but the variety of spells/tasks you can accomplish within each of those magic-types buries that fact. The most diverse-use skill in survival is probably Outdoorsmanship, because of how many different things I can gather.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
IMO the only real spell goals are SRE and CFB and those get hit pretty fast.
>>I have never liked survival prime and I play Necromancer despite it, not because of it.
Yeah, I definitely play a Necro for the interest in the character type than "But this skillset though". In its defense, though, I don't think I've ever been pumped about a class due to skillset allocation. I eyed Bard and Trader a bit once Crafting came out, but nothing came of it.
IMO, the major weakness of the survival skillset is that there's no meat to it, and most of them are specific-goal oriented. Need to dodge? Evasion. Need to swim/climb? Athletics. Need to open a box? Locksmithing. Need to forage/harvest materials? Outdoorsmanship. There's no "Oh man this weapon makes picking staves so cool" or "this is DEFINITELY why I love light armor". Magic is very goal oriented like that, too, but the variety of spells/tasks you can accomplish within each of those magic-types buries that fact. The most diverse-use skill in survival is probably Outdoorsmanship, because of how many different things I can gather.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It's funny you say that because I really can't stand Outdoorsmanship and my 410 ranks in it does absolutely nothing for me except let me circle. vOv
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>>It's funny you say that because I really can't stand Outdoorsmanship and my 410 ranks in it does absolutely nothing for me except let me circle. vOv
When mining first came out, I probably had ~300ish, and kertig/etc veins would give me like 12-20 volume. Now with ~800ish I can sometimes hit around 40 per vein. So I find notable value in getting more of it, and it's one of the few survivals where doing it earns me something beyond more ranks in it.
If it wasn't for mining, I'd feel it does nothing for me at all.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
When mining first came out, I probably had ~300ish, and kertig/etc veins would give me like 12-20 volume. Now with ~800ish I can sometimes hit around 40 per vein. So I find notable value in getting more of it, and it's one of the few survivals where doing it earns me something beyond more ranks in it.
If it wasn't for mining, I'd feel it does nothing for me at all.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
That might be it. I don't mine or lumberjack more than once every few weeks for funsies. I want to do alchemy but I cannot stand how the system presently works. Since they decided that's what outdoorsman/foraging was going to be for, that leaves it with not much use. At least it's easy to lock forever.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
I think you guys are underestimating the utility of training Evasion as a primary. With respect to earning money, survival prime also wins out being able to gather (mining or logging), skin and box pop easiest. I like being survival prime, magic secondary, but I do wish stealth got some love.
Necros are not suffering for spell slots, and our spellbook is quite comprehensive.
>>The thing I struggle with most is the lack of spell slots as secondary.
IMO, this is more a feature than a bug.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
IMO, this is more a feature than a bug.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>With respect to earning money, survival prime also wins out being able to gather (mining or logging), skin and box pop easiest. I like being survival prime, magic secondary, but I do wish stealth got some love.
I think the point being made was that the survival skills are all rather one-note, not that some of the notes aren't good.
If you train bows, there's a wide range of bows you can use that influence your playstyle. If you train an edged, you have a lot of edges to select from. If you wear light armor, you have different types of light armor to consider. If you train debilitation, you have a suite of abilities to utilize through it. If you train forging, you can perform multiple tasks, develop multiple ways, etc.
For locksmithing, you pick boxes. For athletics, you swim and climb. Outdoorsmanship is one of the more robust systems, and it's "collect rocks/metal, wood or plants".
I'm never looking at my evasion skill and thinking of all the possibilities I can accomplish, the various routes I could go down, or the ways I can use it in new or creative ways that are different from other players who also like it. Compare this to forging, where I like the idea of my Gnome character wanting to make more functional things like cups and lockpick rings and crowns vs tools, or how a Necromancer might prefer to lock down with WORM vs go aggro using IVM, or prefer the stealth attacks of VIV over the mass damage of USOL.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I think the point being made was that the survival skills are all rather one-note, not that some of the notes aren't good.
If you train bows, there's a wide range of bows you can use that influence your playstyle. If you train an edged, you have a lot of edges to select from. If you wear light armor, you have different types of light armor to consider. If you train debilitation, you have a suite of abilities to utilize through it. If you train forging, you can perform multiple tasks, develop multiple ways, etc.
For locksmithing, you pick boxes. For athletics, you swim and climb. Outdoorsmanship is one of the more robust systems, and it's "collect rocks/metal, wood or plants".
I'm never looking at my evasion skill and thinking of all the possibilities I can accomplish, the various routes I could go down, or the ways I can use it in new or creative ways that are different from other players who also like it. Compare this to forging, where I like the idea of my Gnome character wanting to make more functional things like cups and lockpick rings and crowns vs tools, or how a Necromancer might prefer to lock down with WORM vs go aggro using IVM, or prefer the stealth attacks of VIV over the mass damage of USOL.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Oh, and I think that's a very valid criticism of Stealth/Evasion. I just don't think it's unique to Evasion, and as a skillset, I find Survival to be superior in breadth and depth of 'things to do' than, say, Armor.
I think a lot of this depends on the sort of activity you want to be getting up to. Forging having a lot of different recipes to play with, to me, doesn't really make it inherently better than, say, Evasion or Stealth, because you're still sitting at a forge hammering things out. And, yes, by that logic, in some respects, having the diversity of being able to switch to different weapons isn't really exemplary of diversity because you're still 'just swinging a weapon'.
I think a strong argument could be made for Necros having been Magic prime, but ultimately it's all fine and good. I don't think I'd have trained my guy any differently, save actually being able to ignore 7th and 8th survivals.
>>It wasn't a formal proposal so much as a request that I consider making Necromancers an Armor-Primary guild with their major Thing being a suit of "living" armor that grew and did things.
I once played D&D and had a necromancer who found a dead giant. I flayed him and proceeded to wear his arms and ribcage after they were enchanted. Now having giant arms to hold a shield and sword, my puny necro arms were free to cast spells. Some nice "bone to steel" spell action made it all the better. Totally reminded me of that.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
I once played D&D and had a necromancer who found a dead giant. I flayed him and proceeded to wear his arms and ribcage after they were enchanted. Now having giant arms to hold a shield and sword, my puny necro arms were free to cast spells. Some nice "bone to steel" spell action made it all the better. Totally reminded me of that.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Well, the "best" way to do that would be to give zombies access to PROTECT so it serves as a literal meat shield. This doesn't sound like it's as technically feasible as I wish it was. :(
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
<<Well, the "best" way to do that would be to give zombies access to PROTECT so it serves as a literal meat shield. This doesn't sound like it's as technically feasible as I wish it was. :(>>
Would they be able to tap into the GUARD system players use somehow? Just get a zombie to stand in front of a Necro in the same manner.
I imagined something more along the lines of killing say a big water friendly critter (for example), performing a ritual to remove a leg somehow, prepping the leg in some ritualized manner, and slipping the zombie leg on. Presto, swimming bonus (lower RT?) and additional armor protection. Different critters provide a different bonus to something in survival.
Would they be able to tap into the GUARD system players use somehow? Just get a zombie to stand in front of a Necro in the same manner.
I imagined something more along the lines of killing say a big water friendly critter (for example), performing a ritual to remove a leg somehow, prepping the leg in some ritualized manner, and slipping the zombie leg on. Presto, swimming bonus (lower RT?) and additional armor protection. Different critters provide a different bonus to something in survival.
Leto Atreides and http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=2787&type=card
That is all.
That is all.
http://magiccards.info/tpr/en/119.html
I mean, we have tuners...
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
I mean, we have tuners...
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Dr. Vhazilok?
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dr._Vahzilok
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dr._Vahzilok
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
I just want some Buffalo Bill-style armor that also talks to me.
Is that too much to ask, Lord J?
Please don't respond, Lord J, my brain still stings.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Is that too much to ask, Lord J?
Please don't respond, Lord J, my brain still stings.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
