You can have two sides to the coin in any debate, but also so too can you have two sides of one side of the coin. Confusing? Great lets begin.

Let us take stealing as an example. The paladin code as laid down by the council forbids stealing and has the greatest of impact upon the paladin's abilities and progression. Now how do we define stealing? This can be rather complicated but lets state a few examples of what I consider stealing.

1. Someone removes some coins from anothers pocket (Clear cut everyone agrees this is stealing)
2. Someone removes some items from anothers resting place. (They certainly aren't your items, but nobody is there to protest this, so is it wrong? I believe so yes, this is stealing as well.)
3. Offer to buy an item from someone at a very low price. You know this item is worth 1000 platinum but this guy seems ignorant of the fact and only wants 50 plat. (This one is a very tricky one and can be debated any number of angles on both sides. The bottom line though is you are holding out knowledge that this person does not have in order to profit from it yourself.)
4. Someone removes some coins/items/boxes from something they have killed. (From a game mechanics point of view I know we are just making the game playable, but ummm yeah this is pretty much stealing again)


-99% of paladins agree that 1 is moraly wrong and is stealing. This is backed up by 99% of government and law. This is pretty clear cut and a no brainer.
-50% with varying degrees of circumstance and details paladins would agree this is wrong. Grave robbing, Crypt robbing, sometimes when great need arises this can be forgiven for the greater good (heh this indeed is interesting concept but I won't even get into this one). This is definately be enforced by government and law where applicable.
-25% of paladins would say 3 is wrong and probably would call the offending party a thief outright or swindler at the very least. Definately not Paladin like behavior but acceptable more so than other forms of stealing. This is not backed up in any form by the government.
-0% of paladins would say 4 is wrong because they all do it. No laws against this either

Now I am not trying to bring stealing to the forefront of discussion but I just wanted to know what people though of these sort of gray/grey areas? We can touch all of the big ones if you want... Killing, stealing, stealth attacks/retreats, first strike, what have you. Now an interesting concept that goes into this is oh this person is evil so you can go ahead and kill, strike first sort of approach. Why is it because someone is evil the paladin is suddenly not held to his rigid moral code? Game mechanics would be the reason here I am sure. It makes the game playable and you can have fun.

So seperating the fun from the game. The RP from the game mechanics, what do you paladins think should be an absolute no go in any situation? I would love to hear from all gambits of the group, dark, light, white hats, blue hats I dont care.

debate moral relativism: GO

-Mr. Glemm

<<If half the guild thinks grave robbing is okay, then I quit, there is no hope for paladins.

Fortunately, I think your numbers are WAY off. >>

No I don't think my numbers are that far off.

I am not talking in the sense that someone kills a PC and takes their items. More from an aspect a paladin investigates an ancient tomb and takes some items from that persons resting place. HI OANE HOW YOU DOIN.

In response to that, to my knowledge, Oane never took anything from the resting place of Emille the Fist, or any tomb for that matter. Her weapon was missing upon discovery (if it was there in the first place) and her icon, as well as a scroll which i have verified is not there now, were presumably taken by the Paladin Council for "safe-keeping" along with a set of armor. If you mean "his" icon, as he refers to in his lectures, it is oen he as well as Councilor Asilias received in the Eyes of the 13 after visiting the tomb and receiving a vision, leading to such. If i'm mistaken, please point it out. Don't like havin my facts mixed up, puts my undies in a bunch ^^


Regards,
Emerald Knight Penderrin

P.S.,
Where's the cookies!?!?!?

>>If half the guild thinks grave robbing is okay, then I go on a paladin guild cleansing spree.


Death Dealer Adakin of Prime
WorldsBestMagic Kastr of TF

"The Key To Immortality Is Living A Life Worth Remembering."

"Killing Time Murders Opportunities."

If someone wants to tackle how grave robbing a PC is different than killing and searching a NPC in an IC sense, I'm all ears.

-Mr. Glemm

Not all NPCs walk every time they die.

---

Rev. Reene

Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."

>> If I recall the origonal post, the NPCs in question refer to hunting critters, I generally consider them as walking when I kill them (ie marauders, etc..).

So am I.

Throne City thugs.

---

Rev. Reene

Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."

<<If I recall the origonal post, the NPCs in question refer to hunting critters, I generally consider them as walking when I kill them (ie marauders, etc..).>>

Whatever helps you rationalize it, I guess.

-Mr. Glemm

If I remember right, the pirates on Hara'jaal will actually depart and ask you to look over their things until they get back.

But, you know, as paladins, we take their stuff.


-Mr. Glemm

>> It's a matter of perspective and what's considered acceptable by society as a whole. That's about it.

That's fair, sure, but I would think a Paladin that is actually concerned about being a morally upright individual all the time would probably avoid murdering people and stealing their stuff, regardless of if society as a whole was going "eh, those guys? who cares."

If you're just going through the motions so you look like a good person, then enjoy your mass murder and pillaging.

---

Rev. Reene

Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."

Well, the mass murdering, as you call it, can be justified in most cases as self defence. I mean, any one of the creatures I kill would kill me first if given the chance, many actually have. Of course, then the argument could be made that we don't need to put ourselves in their path. But then, the argument could also be made that if we didn't, and we just went about our business ignoring them, at some point these killers would overrun the cities. And they are, in fact, killers.

~Kattena

---

A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!

Well, like I said, I don't believe a 'morally right' label can be placed on this, just explaining a point of view. I think. I may not be explaining much of anything at this point.


I think that in the grand scheme, the council holds Paladins to a higher standard than the rest of society is generally held to. I actually don't think that in that regard, the hunting/pillaging thing can truly be justified in an IC way. OOCly, unless we're going to get every rank we need from classes, we dont' have a choice but to hunt. So really, it's rather moot in my mind. In other words, the only 'justification' is an OOC one. I'd be really surprised if someone has an IC one that makes sense.

~Kattena

---

A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!

I think, in an IC sense, that it's easier to justify hunting "monsters" and evil creatures than it is other things, such as madmen or npcs based on the 11 races.

People like to play the morality card but ignore it IG when it's convenient.

That hypocrisy is really what I'm trying to illustrate. : /


-Mr. Glemm

>>The fact that the two of you seem to be agreeing on even minor points leads me to question whether perhaps I've already fallen asleep and just don't know it yet.<<

I kinda see it as a crush.



~Silus
Banner first, ask questions later.

Alright, since we're going out into the realms of the theoretical and redundant, we can;t hunt humanoids. It's wrong and evil. Fine. If i catch any of the other guilds hunting humanoids, i'm going to act under the "assisting victims of a crime" and "doing my guild duty" and will thereby smite you with the pretense of justice against the innocent. Doing said hunting of "people" within a justice zone will, by game mechanics, get the law after you, since you're murdering. If the rules change for one, they change for all. It's called BALANCE. Doesn;t look so hot now to pull the "theoretical morality" card, does it?


Regards,
Emerald Knight Penderrin

P.S.,
Where's the cookies!?!?!?

>>If someone wants to tackle how grave robbing a PC is different than killing and searching a NPC in an IC sense, I'm all ears.

The same reason you don't get a soul hit for first striking a marauder or whatever.

<<The same reason you don't get a soul hit for first striking a marauder or whatever.>>

So, if I don't get a soul hit, what I do is ok?

Graverobbing gives no soul hit at all. Praise Chadatru, for he smiles upon me.


-Mr. Glemm

>>You heard him Dart, Glemm wants humanoid creatures to act like PCs so please implement first strike penalty for Paladins attacking them and the soul hit for killing them.<<

Durrr


~Silus
Banner first, ask questions later.

<<You heard him Dart, Glemm wants humanoid creatures to act like PCs so please implement first strike penalty for Paladins attacking them and the soul hit for killing them.>>

I didn't say that, but if I did state a stance, I'd rather see first strike soul hits go away completely.


-Mr. Glemm