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>>this whole thread reeks of people who can't tell the difference between OOC and IC knowledge
-Mr. Glemm
Eat a cookie and pretend it was from me, Glemm.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
The Public Stat Data Project
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkqoUyrmvlKNdGlpeHZacEdldi1Ob2h3M1I5TXpCZVE&hl=en
>> It's about people treating PCs and NPCs differently yet acting like it's ok and justified by using some nonexistent IC "lore".
^^
If it's murder in one case it's murder in another.
Whether you are typing >fire thug or >fire Caelumia is immaterial, when you get to that point. If you want to say shooting Caelumia in the face isn't murder either, well, you can make that argument too. You just can't divide those two things by something as arbitrary as PC vs. NPC.
Let's try another: What separates a Throne City alley thug from, oh, I don't know, Lorzelophia?
In one case you have a low-born, uneducated, unwashed street-rat that is prone to violence and steals from people (living and dead) to survive. In the other you have, well, an alley thug. Describe what separates these two entities from each other. What makes one special and one not.
I also like how every time a debate like this comes up and people can't defend themselves they just throw up their arms and cry "RP Elitists!!" Address the damn points or step off for chrissake.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
^^
If it's murder in one case it's murder in another.
Whether you are typing >fire thug or >fire Caelumia is immaterial, when you get to that point. If you want to say shooting Caelumia in the face isn't murder either, well, you can make that argument too. You just can't divide those two things by something as arbitrary as PC vs. NPC.
Let's try another: What separates a Throne City alley thug from, oh, I don't know, Lorzelophia?
In one case you have a low-born, uneducated, unwashed street-rat that is prone to violence and steals from people (living and dead) to survive. In the other you have, well, an alley thug. Describe what separates these two entities from each other. What makes one special and one not.
I also like how every time a debate like this comes up and people can't defend themselves they just throw up their arms and cry "RP Elitists!!" Address the damn points or step off for chrissake.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
<< >>This whole thread reeks of RP elitism. >>
Not this.
<< this whole thread reeks of people who can't tell the difference between OOC and IC knowledge >>
-This-.
I bet we go a minimum of 30 more posts before things either end or a salient point is made.
Killing PCs is from an IC standpoint, the same thing as killing an alley thug: Killing a sentient member of the 11 Races.
Is your argument really: "The alley thug is scum so this is OK by Paladin standards?" That's what I'm getting, at least from Mazrian, whose example was largely a social one and had little to do with the whole divine aspect of things.
I suppose someone could argue that Paladins only get soul hits from killing adventuring PCs, which I think would have absolutely hilarious implications. Like that Rigby book.
-Iskhhr
"What is the worth of one man's honor?"
Not this.
<< this whole thread reeks of people who can't tell the difference between OOC and IC knowledge >>
-This-.
I bet we go a minimum of 30 more posts before things either end or a salient point is made.
Killing PCs is from an IC standpoint, the same thing as killing an alley thug: Killing a sentient member of the 11 Races.
Is your argument really: "The alley thug is scum so this is OK by Paladin standards?" That's what I'm getting, at least from Mazrian, whose example was largely a social one and had little to do with the whole divine aspect of things.
I suppose someone could argue that Paladins only get soul hits from killing adventuring PCs, which I think would have absolutely hilarious implications. Like that Rigby book.
-Iskhhr
"What is the worth of one man's honor?"
At least Mazrian seems to acknowledge there isn't a difference between the two, he just thinks killing people is okay.
That's well and good, the issue is trying to say killing/graverobbing PCs is bad/wrong/un-Paladinish while saying killing/graverobbing NPCs who are also people (even guilded ones sometimes) is a-okay.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
That's well and good, the issue is trying to say killing/graverobbing PCs is bad/wrong/un-Paladinish while saying killing/graverobbing NPCs who are also people (even guilded ones sometimes) is a-okay.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
If you're going to start making up RP about a thugs life and how they snuggle their families at home. Then we can make up RP of why our PC is attacking them. Maybe a villager came up to the paladin and begged them to rescue their kid that was taken away and all their belongings. The paladin is just collecting the loot to give back to the family. Pirates routinely attack and kill people waiting for the ferry. Not to mention their constant raids on the Kree, making travel unsafe. The captain might of asked our PCs to defend their ship. I bet the Paladin is collecting the gems and coins of the raiders to tithe in their guild box. In fact, I know a paladin that only collects loot for that purpose or to help equip younger ones. Just because mechanics don't allow for villagers to ask paladins and PCs for help, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. This is not a double standard. If a PC came up to my character and asked for help after getting graverobbed, he'd jump all over it.
Here is another way to look at it. If an innocent gets lost, robbed and killed in a bad area. Are the cops bad people for hunting the criminals down, barging into their homes, confiscating their goods, and hauling them off to jail or when they're attacked, shooting them? Roll up a commoner, pretend they're lost, and wander into thugs. They will slaughter your defenseless Commoner in seconds and then come collect the loot. If the paladin hunts them down to try and irradicate that threat...how does that make him a mass murdering sociopath?
Here is another way to look at it. If an innocent gets lost, robbed and killed in a bad area. Are the cops bad people for hunting the criminals down, barging into their homes, confiscating their goods, and hauling them off to jail or when they're attacked, shooting them? Roll up a commoner, pretend they're lost, and wander into thugs. They will slaughter your defenseless Commoner in seconds and then come collect the loot. If the paladin hunts them down to try and irradicate that threat...how does that make him a mass murdering sociopath?
>>In one case you have a low-born, uneducated, unwashed street-rat that is prone to violence and steals from people
Haha, my first response was to protest that Lorz doesn't graverob and is, generally, more likely to flee a fight than stand her ground. But she hunts Alley Thugs. Definitely made me consider my character a bit.
Amusingly the Thief guild shuns graverobbery too. Of course, Lorz doesn't tend to take the alley thugs' equipment, only their gems and coins, so...hmm.
Interesting thread, whatever side you come down on.
-- Player of Szrael --
THE ROAD TO WISDOM?
Well, it's plain
and simple to express.
Err and err and err again,
but less and less and less.
Haha, my first response was to protest that Lorz doesn't graverob and is, generally, more likely to flee a fight than stand her ground. But she hunts Alley Thugs. Definitely made me consider my character a bit.
Amusingly the Thief guild shuns graverobbery too. Of course, Lorz doesn't tend to take the alley thugs' equipment, only their gems and coins, so...hmm.
Interesting thread, whatever side you come down on.
-- Player of Szrael --
THE ROAD TO WISDOM?
Well, it's plain
and simple to express.
Err and err and err again,
but less and less and less.
<<You didn't actually. At all.
I did, 40 posts ago. In either case GRing is fun and profitable.
This whole new "lore is absolute king of RP and dictates everyone's actions" movement needs to be tied to the Titanic.
And then shot into space.
Directly into the Sun.
Let Lyras win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdaOeAxy0GU
I did, 40 posts ago. In either case GRing is fun and profitable.
This whole new "lore is absolute king of RP and dictates everyone's actions" movement needs to be tied to the Titanic.
And then shot into space.
Directly into the Sun.
Let Lyras win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdaOeAxy0GU
<<This feels like an old Drongol thread.
I was thinking Aspasia.
Let Lyras win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdaOeAxy0GU
I was thinking Aspasia.
Let Lyras win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdaOeAxy0GU
First and foremost, love the action here.
<<<
And at the very least there is the fact that 99.9% of everything we kill was trying to kill us first.>>>
99.99% of the time this is due to the fact that WE, as hunters, willfully and knowingly invade the lands of a foreign entity with sword drawn. Somebody enters your house unexpectedly and you don't reaction the same? That's fine, but your morals are not my morals are not Glemm morals, are not Madigan morals.
We enter their lands for one sole purpose, greed. Greed to train, greed for their wealth, greed for their life. But something sure must be amiss because that POS Code that hangs in the Crossing Guildhall us the below:
* He will seek to prevent harm to the innocent and will place himself at risk in order to accomplish this if need be.
* A Paladin is a Protector.
* A Paladin is a Leader in righteous combat.
How are we to honestly take this filthy document seriously when we do nothing of the sorts? We don't prevent harm to the innocent, we actively seek to destroy those we deem enemies for purely greedy and selfish reasons. We are not protectors in any sense other than we protect our own interests above all. Free will is a witch. Righteous combat, please, the only combat we engage in on a daily basis is that of profiteering in coin and knowledge.
To come full circle, the ONLY instance of that parchment that should be use to wash regions we don't discuss makes any sense is here:
*If a Paladin does not agree with a law, he must still respect it and should work to change it rather than disregarding it. The only exception to this is if the Paladin believes the law to be truly Evil. In this instance, the Paladin must follow the dictates of his conscience.
This purely fits in with the morally ambiguous motif of the Guild. This again is all a matter of perspective. The law of the lands states we should not Graverob those greedy and profiteering adventurers such as ourselves. If we are to uphold any of our "Code", we should protect the innocent using righteous combat placing our own lives at risk in liberating items of destruction from other adventurers. 99.99% of the time, people of similar strengths and experiences will not go looking to steal the loot, lives and knowledge for a helpless critter they are invading if they know that creature is more powerful than themselves. We hunt things we know we can loot, kill and learn for with great ease so long as the reward of all three is there to some capacity. We should throw off our chains of local and state laws and relieve the unworthy adventurer of their wares and lives be it from their grave or not.
Now of course you could say you only hunt the undead as they are "perverse" to the laws of nature but then you should not be a paladin as much as you should a cleric.
Am I wrong? Maybe, but no guild lore or fictitious Code will prevent me from protecting those I justify as being innocent. From the hapless field goblin to the rock troll or steeds, WE invade their homes. We steal their lives and loot for only selfish and greedy means.
But let's all face one fact that's true 100% of the time; that Greed is good.
<<<
And at the very least there is the fact that 99.9% of everything we kill was trying to kill us first.>>>
99.99% of the time this is due to the fact that WE, as hunters, willfully and knowingly invade the lands of a foreign entity with sword drawn. Somebody enters your house unexpectedly and you don't reaction the same? That's fine, but your morals are not my morals are not Glemm morals, are not Madigan morals.
We enter their lands for one sole purpose, greed. Greed to train, greed for their wealth, greed for their life. But something sure must be amiss because that POS Code that hangs in the Crossing Guildhall us the below:
* He will seek to prevent harm to the innocent and will place himself at risk in order to accomplish this if need be.
* A Paladin is a Protector.
* A Paladin is a Leader in righteous combat.
How are we to honestly take this filthy document seriously when we do nothing of the sorts? We don't prevent harm to the innocent, we actively seek to destroy those we deem enemies for purely greedy and selfish reasons. We are not protectors in any sense other than we protect our own interests above all. Free will is a witch. Righteous combat, please, the only combat we engage in on a daily basis is that of profiteering in coin and knowledge.
To come full circle, the ONLY instance of that parchment that should be use to wash regions we don't discuss makes any sense is here:
*If a Paladin does not agree with a law, he must still respect it and should work to change it rather than disregarding it. The only exception to this is if the Paladin believes the law to be truly Evil. In this instance, the Paladin must follow the dictates of his conscience.
This purely fits in with the morally ambiguous motif of the Guild. This again is all a matter of perspective. The law of the lands states we should not Graverob those greedy and profiteering adventurers such as ourselves. If we are to uphold any of our "Code", we should protect the innocent using righteous combat placing our own lives at risk in liberating items of destruction from other adventurers. 99.99% of the time, people of similar strengths and experiences will not go looking to steal the loot, lives and knowledge for a helpless critter they are invading if they know that creature is more powerful than themselves. We hunt things we know we can loot, kill and learn for with great ease so long as the reward of all three is there to some capacity. We should throw off our chains of local and state laws and relieve the unworthy adventurer of their wares and lives be it from their grave or not.
Now of course you could say you only hunt the undead as they are "perverse" to the laws of nature but then you should not be a paladin as much as you should a cleric.
Am I wrong? Maybe, but no guild lore or fictitious Code will prevent me from protecting those I justify as being innocent. From the hapless field goblin to the rock troll or steeds, WE invade their homes. We steal their lives and loot for only selfish and greedy means.
But let's all face one fact that's true 100% of the time; that Greed is good.
Wow. What in the world happened.
Well my initial desire was to get people thinking and maybe debate some gray areas of what "evil" or moraly wrong things for a paladin to do are. What it comes down to is basicly this. You are the one that decides to make a choice on if something is wrong or right. The gods will judge you and nobody else should matter(from an RP standpoint). Here are just a couple of points my character has.
- He hunts undead and creature types.
So far has done:
rats/eels/beiswurms/undead cats and dogs/undead kobolds/gargoyles/Eilodons(or whatever they are called)/oafs and beasts/shamblers.
- Honor is everything, Honor is earned, if disgraced this needs to be amended(no matter how long it takes).
- Do not steal something from someone that does not belong to you. Now an interesting side note here is that if someone engages in combat with me(they initiate) I have the right (by combat) to take whatever is left on the field of battle, be it a dropped weapon, the whole damn grave or whatever else you leave behind. Creature and undead loot is not considered stealing because they are not intelligent, and gods fearing people. (Oh ho another interesting aspect here) Pagans do not fall under this rule either. The whole crusades thing definately applies here, ie necromancers.
- Do not spread lies or falsehoods.
Some things he does not agree with that the paladin code touches on:
- Stealthy attacks, Stealth in general. As long as the attack is made in honor it does not matter how that attack is made(in his mind).
- First strike is sort of debatable because if I am righteous in my choice of a fight I should be able to strike first. If my battle is not righteous then yes I should be penalized (this is impossible from a game standpoint so I am okay with this standing as is)
I am definately not RP eliteism. In fact I am the farthest thing from an RP guru there is. I do enjoy setting up the stage of my character and what he does though. If another PC disagrees with my point of views I could care less. The minute they begin to question my honor though we will have words, and maybe even a few missing teeth.
Well my initial desire was to get people thinking and maybe debate some gray areas of what "evil" or moraly wrong things for a paladin to do are. What it comes down to is basicly this. You are the one that decides to make a choice on if something is wrong or right. The gods will judge you and nobody else should matter(from an RP standpoint). Here are just a couple of points my character has.
- He hunts undead and creature types.
So far has done:
rats/eels/beiswurms/undead cats and dogs/undead kobolds/gargoyles/Eilodons(or whatever they are called)/oafs and beasts/shamblers.
- Honor is everything, Honor is earned, if disgraced this needs to be amended(no matter how long it takes).
- Do not steal something from someone that does not belong to you. Now an interesting side note here is that if someone engages in combat with me(they initiate) I have the right (by combat) to take whatever is left on the field of battle, be it a dropped weapon, the whole damn grave or whatever else you leave behind. Creature and undead loot is not considered stealing because they are not intelligent, and gods fearing people. (Oh ho another interesting aspect here) Pagans do not fall under this rule either. The whole crusades thing definately applies here, ie necromancers.
- Do not spread lies or falsehoods.
Some things he does not agree with that the paladin code touches on:
- Stealthy attacks, Stealth in general. As long as the attack is made in honor it does not matter how that attack is made(in his mind).
- First strike is sort of debatable because if I am righteous in my choice of a fight I should be able to strike first. If my battle is not righteous then yes I should be penalized (this is impossible from a game standpoint so I am okay with this standing as is)
I am definately not RP eliteism. In fact I am the farthest thing from an RP guru there is. I do enjoy setting up the stage of my character and what he does though. If another PC disagrees with my point of views I could care less. The minute they begin to question my honor though we will have words, and maybe even a few missing teeth.
>> - Do not steal something from someone that does not belong to you. Now an interesting side note here is that if someone engages in combat with me(they initiate) I have the right (by combat) to take whatever is left on the field of battle, be it a dropped weapon, the whole damn grave or whatever else you leave behind. Creature and undead loot is not considered stealing because they are not intelligent, and gods fearing people. (Oh ho another interesting aspect here) Pagans do not fall under this rule either. The whole crusades thing definately applies here, ie necromancers.
I think this is a valid perspective and assertion for a Paladin to make and I appreciate you sharing it.
(not sarcasm)
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
I think this is a valid perspective and assertion for a Paladin to make and I appreciate you sharing it.
(not sarcasm)
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
Uthgaar kills lots of critters/people. Rutilor gets upset when I do it to People (PCs) and I recieve a soul hit. I pray for forgiveness and presto..I've got a pristine soul again. Uthgaar knows its murder, and in town its against the law..but to Uthgaar he is justified in almost all his actions. As far as hunting NPC's/Necro/thugs, yes Uthgaar feels he is morally just in doing such things. Murder is about the only way things get done in elanthia...see timeline of elanthia. So you either get on board or become a pacafist and get run over eventually. The worlds a dangerous cruel place sometimes, and even the holy have to put the hammer down.
The "11" refers to the chosen of the eleven blessed races by the Gods... all manner of creature is created by the Gods or through means that were created by the Gods... some that are created are chosen to go before The Gods(character manager) and recieve their gift of "uniqueness." This is the Distinction between an alley thug and someone who is one of the chosen 11 who thugs you in an alley.
This has been supported in the distant past with IC interactions and lore... sadly when the jadewater mansion was built and the Mentors society formed most of IC interaction concerning this matter faded away. It wasn't their fault... and They are deffinetly an asset to the novice player...
Oh... this is why in the past also that certain GMPCs would grant you a soul hit for killing them even though they were a Goblin or somesuch creature other then one of the 11... They were "chosen" to become a unique addition to our world.
Paladins understand this distinction... it is wrong to kill any of the chosen 11. Yes even those who choose to shun the Gods and turn to Heretical ways were once "chosen." Which is why I feel if killed we should still recieve soul hits unless the Gods have foresaken them completely... which makes them fair game.
Sorry I didn't read the boards sooner and cut off this run of posts on a scenario with a clear answer.
for all you "cite proofers" there are GM posts that specifically use the term "chosen" and reffering to charicter manager as the "gifting of uniquenes" for IC use. You may believe me or not... require proof or not... but this is how it is and you cannot expect nor reasonabely suggest the nembers of the Paladin's Guild become pacifists with empty bank vaults, selling twigs and branches for mere survival. Also, Soul hits are part of what grants a Paladin with his/her powers... With great power comes great responcibility... and you must accept the consequences of your actions... to wish otherwise is unpaladiny.
Even those who would serve the Dark Thirteen understand that the Gods have expectations of them... and because they may work to further differant agendas and goals then the rest of their guild or people in general... They still understand that a Holy Oath was made by them upon joining the Paladin's Guild... and although some aspects may change within that oath... their soul is forever bound to it.
This has been supported in the distant past with IC interactions and lore... sadly when the jadewater mansion was built and the Mentors society formed most of IC interaction concerning this matter faded away. It wasn't their fault... and They are deffinetly an asset to the novice player...
Oh... this is why in the past also that certain GMPCs would grant you a soul hit for killing them even though they were a Goblin or somesuch creature other then one of the 11... They were "chosen" to become a unique addition to our world.
Paladins understand this distinction... it is wrong to kill any of the chosen 11. Yes even those who choose to shun the Gods and turn to Heretical ways were once "chosen." Which is why I feel if killed we should still recieve soul hits unless the Gods have foresaken them completely... which makes them fair game.
Sorry I didn't read the boards sooner and cut off this run of posts on a scenario with a clear answer.
for all you "cite proofers" there are GM posts that specifically use the term "chosen" and reffering to charicter manager as the "gifting of uniquenes" for IC use. You may believe me or not... require proof or not... but this is how it is and you cannot expect nor reasonabely suggest the nembers of the Paladin's Guild become pacifists with empty bank vaults, selling twigs and branches for mere survival. Also, Soul hits are part of what grants a Paladin with his/her powers... With great power comes great responcibility... and you must accept the consequences of your actions... to wish otherwise is unpaladiny.
Even those who would serve the Dark Thirteen understand that the Gods have expectations of them... and because they may work to further differant agendas and goals then the rest of their guild or people in general... They still understand that a Holy Oath was made by them upon joining the Paladin's Guild... and although some aspects may change within that oath... their soul is forever bound to it.
It was a great outlook on the way he wants to play his paladin with OOC GM driven ideals. Yeah it will be hard to explain to someone that this Orc GMPC that slaughters 100s was chosen by the gods to be special so I can't kill him. I can slay the masses of orcs he leads though. Still dig the idea. This is the kind of stuff I wanted to see, how everyone elses Code works.
The actual reason you get/got soul hits for attacking orc or goblin or what-have-you NPCs is because the system only looks at if you're attacking a character, not what race it is.
I'm also fairly sure mechanically it is not possible for them to be one of those races, and their real race is just hidden by their descriptions so you can't tell.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
I'm also fairly sure mechanically it is not possible for them to be one of those races, and their real race is just hidden by their descriptions so you can't tell.
Rev. Reene
Xalahai says to you, "Don't you know me? I'm Jhipicalain, the awesomest warrior mage ever."
Xalahai says, "Then I will go hide in my tower where nobody can get to me. Because I am the greatest. Ever."
2. Someone removes some items from anothers resting place. (They certainly aren't your items, but nobody is there to protest this, so is it wrong? I believe so yes, this is stealing as well.)
I was given years ago a bone that belonged to velmix given to me by the digger and had to go visit Althiras to confirm a few things.
Should I have found velmix and given it back to him? I was actually torn between the two.
Just stating that sometimes its not so black and white.
I was given years ago a bone that belonged to velmix given to me by the digger and had to go visit Althiras to confirm a few things.
Should I have found velmix and given it back to him? I was actually torn between the two.
Just stating that sometimes its not so black and white.
Re: The "Chosen" give soul hits
It's still impossible to tell who is chosen and who isn't from an IC point of view. That alley thug might be a chosen Thief, how is your character to know? It's easy to tell due to game mechanics, but our characters don't see game mechanics.
This gave me a lot to think about, even for my non-paladin characters. Awesome discussion.
-Kurako
It's still impossible to tell who is chosen and who isn't from an IC point of view. That alley thug might be a chosen Thief, how is your character to know? It's easy to tell due to game mechanics, but our characters don't see game mechanics.
This gave me a lot to think about, even for my non-paladin characters. Awesome discussion.
-Kurako
