>This is a rather easy problem to solve. People would have a lot more respect for governmental authority if each ruler could order the seizure of bank accounts and vault items in the particular province. How about executions and one is not allowed to depart for 30 minutes - not too sure how it would be explained IG. The body is guarded, so rejuvs are impossible, leading to the forced experience loss. Despite death and pain being trivial parts of the adventurer's life, there are many, many other ways to send a clear, painful message.

Sounds like a great solution if your intention is to scare people from roleplaying outside of the box at all.

Personally, I would rather see a faction system set up. Where NPC guards and shop owners would be unfriendly or even hostile to you, should you choose to actively oppose the government or break the laws.

Litharius


______________________________________________________________

No sprinkles! For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you!

-Stewie Griffin

<<This is a rather easy problem to solve. People would have a lot more respect for governmental authority if each ruler could order the seizure of bank accounts and vault items in the particular province. How about executions and one is not allowed to depart for 30 minutes - not too sure how it would be explained IG. The body is guarded, so rejuvs are impossible, leading to the forced experience loss. Despite death and pain being trivial parts of the adventurer's life, there are many, many other ways to send a clear, painful message.

That would be an excellent way to discourage participation in events, if that's the goal.

While I agree with the point about Elanthia not being democratic America, I think that it also has to be acknowledged that Elanthia isn't medieval Europe either. The historical context is completely different and the history of government is as well. While the current governing system might very well be feudal, within recorded history the Elanthians have had the 5 provinces, the tyranny of the Dragon Priests, completely separate racially segragated kingdoms, the rule of the Wizard-Kings, the Seven Star Empire...with that kind of history, I wouldn't wonder if the newest overlord wasn't viewed with a bit of suspicion and distrust, and certainly not considered an absolute authority. The question of completely different species muddies the water further...and then you have the more long lived breeds. There are Elves and Dwarves still living who could very well have known the Lanival that the current calendar is based off of. That has to do something to systems of government.


Controlling the sword is nothing more than controlling the mind.

>The same thought applies here: It's not really 'outside of the box' when every Tom, Dick, and Harry adventurer tries to light Vorclaf's surcoat on fire. You need to create the box (or the illusion of the box -- of a large number of people actually adhering to the monarchy) before you can adequately be outside it.

I would agree, if that were the case. However, the fact is, 95% of Zoluren do not openly oppose Vorclaf, they just never get noticed. You always hear about those that do, so you assume that everyone does. This is just not the case, so yes, it is still 'outside of the box'.

Litharius


______________________________________________________________

No sprinkles! For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you!

-Stewie Griffin

<<However, the fact is, 95% of Zoluren do not openly oppose Vorclaf>>

That statistic is a fact? I'll try to find the research to support it later.




B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes

---

Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"

Un...Be...Lievable...

>>>That statistic is a fact? I'll try to find the research to support it later.

I would say it is a fact, yes. Considering the millions of people who live in Zoluren who support the Prince, and the 30 or 40 people who oppose him, 95% is conservative.


-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

>>Out of the millions, you know how many of them are for and against?

No, but I know that none of them "openly oppose" the Prince, because if they did we would know their names just like we know the names of the traitors now.


-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

Thats like saying they don't commit murder or reproduce or anything else simply because we don't... know their names? They can do all these things publically just like they have public, open aspects of their lives as well. We as the PC just don't see most of it. Quite frankly we have no idea if they express dissaproval for the Prince or not just because -we- don't hear it or RP them. Wasn't it stated by a GM that a very large number of 'commoners' making up a majority of the population are field workers/peasants and such? If not I stand corrected. If so, then we wouldn't be around them very much to know either way.


B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes

---

Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"

Un...Be...Lievable...

Again, drawing on the medieval european example: you had the vatican as opposed to the monarchies. In the Islamic nations you had the caliphs as opposed to the imans of the mosques. There would be a reasonable case for the clergy to oppose the monarch IF they saw him/her as a threat to their own power/funding. They would not be necessarily overt with this, as there are many temples with many gods, as opposed to a monotheistic society wherein only one "god" is supposed to be the ultimate authority. But that possibility Would exist.

Certain DR "religions" outside the norm would also have reasons of their own to oppose the official monarchy, such as the dragon priests - unless they have their own structure or belief system present, such as the temple of the Dragon in Muspar'I.

There would also possibly be species opposition. A S'Kra might resent being ruled by a human monarch for example.


:-)


~Weak of arm,crazy roar;
terrible aim,awful health;
broken fingers,no real stealth;
leave em dead,stabbed some more;
lost your coins,on the floor;
greetings!now you're out the door~
>

The clergy certainly opposed the ruler often. The Roman Papacy vs the Roman Emperor is a clear example of this. These are people in positions of power however, or led by one in such position as the Pope. In DR however, who would these people in positions of power be that so many adventurers are following vs the Prince? The last I knew of was the Sirolarn vs Vorclaf situation. Right now it seems like there are just folks casually opposing the Prince for who knows what reasons. Some sound reasonable, others seem to do it as some sort of rebellious trend.


B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes

---

Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"

Un...Be...Lievable...

<<What would you guys recommend a bonus or reward that a successful bad guy should be given if he/she is working alone?

What would you guys recommend a bonus or reward that a successful bad guy should be given if he/she is working with another bad guy type GMPC?

Do you think that these rewards should stack upon each other (if applicable)?

Give your definition of a successful bad guy.>>

That's one the biggest problem in Dragonrealms, there's no motivation to be a "bad guy" or to role-play evil except for the sake of roleplaying. Villains are not evil for the sake of being evil, they are evil because being evil helps them either A) Become more powerful, B) Become richer, C) Change the world more to their liking. These are not mutually exclusive either.

However, in DR, these things are impossible (The Necromancer guild will flesh out some of these paths). There are no grand "evil" acts that anyone can do that is of any consequence. Being a bad guy should transcend simply being a huge jerk or a graverobber - which is essentially what role-playing a bad guy is limited to. Bad guys should be bad because their actions have far reaching effects. Suppose you and a crew could break into the vaults and make off with people's valuables? Or suppose a band of revolutionaries could actually overthrow a city government and install themselves. Suppose they could then heavily tax the populace and have their enemies jailed and tortued by the guards? Or suppose a group of barbarians, truly despising all things magical, could attack the war mage guild, slay the guildleader, and then burn the guildhall to the ground, forcing all warmages to travel to another province to circle? Or perhaps someone could actively assist Grishnok and be rewarded with the Big-Ninja-Blade-of-L33tness or the Summon-Voidspawn-that-Kill-Everything-I-Look-at spell. The possibilities are endless, but if we're going to have real punishments for bad guys, we should also have real havoc that these bad guys can wreak.

From what I've heard, the BFA did a great job attempting a grand evil plan, but ultimately it fell apart simply because their leader died and also because their really was nothing they could really do. Great you took over Langenfirth, so what? It didn't change a thing, you didn't gain a thing. Tell me why you did it again? Oh? Only for roleplaying? I hope it is worth all the times you are refused healing, rejuving, and all sorts of services as well as being hunted, exiled, and imprisoned repeatedly. No one strives to be evil for the sake of being evil. Give us some type of mechanism so that being a bad guy actually means something.

<<Elanthia bares very little resemblence to that period in human history, in fact it can't possibly do so.
>>

<<Nothing that truly resembles medieval europe could possibly exist where such things are present. >>

I think you have just proven everyone who believes fantasy novels and rpgs such as DR and D&D are based in a medieval setting vs a modern American one completely wrong.

Oh wait, no you didn't ;) Interesting opinion though and I respect it but thats just way too extreme for me. To each his own.



B-Hon, Pullin Seihjin's Strings Behind the Scenes

---

Your mind hears Renala thinking, "lady morganbin good evening *big cuddles an smooches*"

Un...Be...Lievable...

>>>Any suggestion that Elanthian mentality and attitude should in any way mirror those held by medieval europeans is clearly in error. Those complaining that there is too much 'modern' thinking and attitudes in Elanthia seem to be making assumptions about the lives of the Elanthian people that don't seem to be true, at least from my perspective. <<<

Far as I can tell, you're the only one pushing this extreme of an argument. That's okay - I'll just agree to disagree.


---Brett

>>Elanthia bares very little resemblence to that period in human history, in fact it can't possibly do so.<<

I've always figured if DR is based in anything, it's ye olde Italian Rebirth. We had the Roma-...Seven Star Empire, its fall, and then the rise of civilization again. The printing press seems likely -- optics (the telescope) and the basis of modern astronomy (orbital mechanics, Elanthia being round, constellations as three-dimensional objects) is already here.

Transit, as you mentioned, is better then even modern times (I know I can't walk a few hundred miles in under a minute). Medicine is outmoded by Empaths. Despite the reliance on magic, technology seems to be quite high (a flying, mechanical dragon?) and is downright Steampunk-ish, except for the noticable lack of firearms.

Larcus' Player

---

"It's a metaphor of human bloody existence, a dragon. And if that wasn't bad enough, it's also a bloody great hot flying thing." -- Terry Pratchett

>Free will? to a point you should have it. But you cant seriously be denying that people are taking OOC american democratic views and applying them to elanthian culture. Thats exactly what is happening. In a medeival world, you need to BE your character. Democracy is something that is unheard of at this time. Sure, there are some who hate royalty, but speaking about it openly in such a public forum is ludicrous. They should be beheaded.


I wanted to point out that before the ignorance of the dark ages, both republics and democracies had been tried, and therefore would not be OOG. I dislike Vorclaf not because he is royal but becuase he's a bloomin idiot.

If they want to be stupid and act like dolts, who are we to stop them? Of course no one votes for the roalty in DR except for the coverning council of Ilithi, or zoulren, which is appointed by the guilds.. so calling them fudal.. well I don't know everything about DR, but it doesn't seem to fit the strict definition of the word.

Really, we use romanesque items IG why not romanesque ideas? I think the whole Democracy argument is foolish on both sides because quite frankly it's not consistent with a middle age genre, however there were other areas around that time period who had different traditions and sources of learning. It is impossible to say that the knowledge about democracy/republics did not exist then.

I think saying that 'I did not vote for him' is also insane. your character doesn't vote, except possibly with their feet.

Harhser penalties will not solve the problem, and if the nobles took more time to be more PR concious then they probably wouldn't have as many people hating them...

But lately it seems that the Nobles in DR are one PR disaster after another... and while you don't vote for nobility, rebelions did happen, and pissing off large groups of people in your 'Realm' because you can't figure out how to keep them mostly molified is insane.

Military might only goes so far, and when people do not see the benifits you are adding then they tend to get even more uptight.

The Vaults are provided by a storage company not the prince.

The banks are part of commerce, and are provided in the different towns by different people, they may be Chartered by the ruling house but are not owned by them. Nobility owns the property and most of the people, but not the skills of the craftsmen.

ah who cares ya'll just flame me anyway.


Yer all correct .




______________________________________
Your mind hears Elriic thinking, "Hey George? Yeah Bill? What was that bump in the road? I dunno Bill? Did it squish? Yep.. Oh well."

>Its borderline systems abuse at times just IMO because people know they can't really be harmed.

In a world where pain and death is as every day as having a glass of water(in modern society), it is not, in my opinion, unrealistic for people to shrug it off and not fear it.

By the way, how often do you decide to not hunt whatever creatures you hunt because there is a chance you could get seriously injured or killed?

>That's one the biggest problem in Dragonrealms, there's no motivation to be a "bad guy" or to role-play evil except for the sake of roleplaying.

This is an excellent point. There is absolutely no reward, other than maybe being known, to roleplaying a bad guy or rebelling. People can rebel against the prince all they want, nothing is likely to ever come of it. Another reason increasing the penalties would only discourage roleplay.

When players shape the governmental structures of Elanthia, when nations rise and fall under good or bad rulers, when rebellions make any difference at all in the world, I could see inflicting harsher penalties for roleplaying against the grain.

But until then, until there is actually something to gain from the players' efforts, I believe the current punishments and penalties in place are sufficient.

Litharius

______________________________________________________________

No sprinkles! For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you!

-Stewie Griffin

>>Like what? Like the harsh consequences certain well known rebels against Vorclaf suffered?

I really hope you aren't talking about the original treasonists, but instead the BFA.

The original treasonists had a very close relationship with the GM involved, and we were almost all willing to do whatever under one condition:

"The game was still fun."

If a GM wants to lock Pureblade up on a remote island, or capture him for questioning, or do WHATEVER, my only requests is that they don't destory my unique/rare equipment, they don't walk him, and they don't just lock me in a room and then log off.

The original treasonists did just that, and the GMs were ready too have us killed on command. The only reason we WEREN'T executed was because the OTHER PCs saved us.

Need a babelfish for DragonRealms?

http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

<<<I wanted to point out that before the ignorance of the dark ages, both republics and democracies had been tried, and therefore would not be OOG. I dislike Vorclaf not because he is royal but becuase he's a bloomin idiot.>>>

And this observation comes from your extended exposure to him I'm sure. If you would take the time to interact with him and then come to that conclusion I could respect an opinion like this.

-V

>>Well you could say this about any leader...

Exactly! I don't have to spend intimate personal time with George Bush to think he's a moron.

However, I don't think that Vorclaf is an idiot simply based on the fact that he's never done anything to Zoluren that I would deem stupid or foolish.


-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

>However, I don't think that Vorclaf is an idiot simply based on the fact that he's never done anything to Zoluren that I would deem stupid or foolish.

My paladin disagrees...but she dislikes Darius for the same reason she dislikes Vorclaf.

My other characters range from being loyal to the crown to disinterested.

~S.T., player of Coine

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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein