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This spell as it stands today is fairly limited in usage. I think the main flaw in the spell design is that it requires a normal warding check in order to work. So the times that I would primarily consider using this spell, when I am having trouble warding something, my choices are:
1) Continue trying to cast a useful offensive spell until I am successful, at which point, something useful happens.
2) Try casting Elemental Saturation with the same warding difficulty until I am successful, at which point I can then try casting a useful spell.
A couple of suggestions that would make this spell a lot more useful:
1) Eliminate the warding check entirely such that when you cast it on a target you are simply successful and their warding check is reduced by 25 for a period of time. Lower the duration vs. the current effect time to offset that there is no longer a warding check.
2) Have this spell work similar to 117-Spirit Strike where you cast it and then the next warding spell you cast within 2 minutes gains a bonus of +25. Maybe tie it into lore such that there is a chance the spell will remain for a second warding spell attack before running out.
On a tangential note, I am curious if anyone is using this spell in a constructive way today. Please share!
-- Robert
"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"
<On a tangential note, I am curious if anyone is using this spell in a constructive way today. Please share!>
I actually had forgotten it even existed. My sorcerer just uses Curse when he needs to lower a critter's CS because there's no warding check for it.
I really don't see it being something useful to the other professions that have access to the circle either, for reason you stated: if you're having enough trouble warding something that it's worth spending 13 mana to reduce it's CS, you're probably not going to get this off on the first or second cast either.... in fact, you'll probably have LESS of a chance of this spell being successful then the spell you really want to cast since I've never even heard of someone having more ranks in MnE then their professional circle (warriors and rogues don't count).
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I actually had forgotten it even existed. My sorcerer just uses Curse when he needs to lower a critter's CS because there's no warding check for it.
I really don't see it being something useful to the other professions that have access to the circle either, for reason you stated: if you're having enough trouble warding something that it's worth spending 13 mana to reduce it's CS, you're probably not going to get this off on the first or second cast either.... in fact, you'll probably have LESS of a chance of this spell being successful then the spell you really want to cast since I've never even heard of someone having more ranks in MnE then their professional circle (warriors and rogues don't count).
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>>I've never even heard of someone having more ranks in MnE then their professional circle (warriors and rogues don't count).<<
I now present, for your edification and viewing pleasure ...
Gwenievierre (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 70 15
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 160 60
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 172 72
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 170 70
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 58
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 89
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 58
In case you're wondering exactly WHY this spell training was chosen ... she uses 415 a lot. MnE CS is 505. This is, admittedly, a somewhat mutant training path. (The earth lore is for additional weapon AS from self-cast strength.)
::This space for rent::
I now present, for your edification and viewing pleasure ...
Gwenievierre (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 70 15
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Spell Aiming.......................| 302 202
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 160 60
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 102 24
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 172 72
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 170 70
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 58
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 89
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 58
In case you're wondering exactly WHY this spell training was chosen ... she uses 415 a lot. MnE CS is 505. This is, admittedly, a somewhat mutant training path. (The earth lore is for additional weapon AS from self-cast strength.)
::This space for rent::
It has reasonable usage for sorcerers in extreme situations. By default, we would Curse the creature to drop the TD, which has no warding check. This is usually sufficient, but not always for certain kinds of dangerous creature tasks, for example. In that case, the follow-up of 715 with 413 (with 413 being more likely to gain a +101 or better margin) drops the TD by a total of -50, making the creature a fish in a barrel.
But I agree that for sorcerers, it's an auxiliary spell as 715 will always be preferred, but the warding of 413 is mostly irrelevant in the cases we really want to tank a target's TD. On the other hand, sorcerers have access to several bolt spells as well as several maneuver spells to address situations where extremely high TDs are found (and spending 6 seconds just to drop the TD of a nasty creature is rarely an ideal solution). For non-sorcerers, I agree 100% with the OP that the fact of 413 having a warding check rather defeats the practical use for one's own hunting, since a warding check seems silly for a spell intended to drop the warding.
We could drop the check for success any time, although this feels a little like treading on Curse; I agree Curse has many features, so this is only a minor point but also to say, it would be identically duplicating a feature and implementation of an existing spell, and then that aspect of Curse would become the auxiliary component and little used by sorcerers (which is presently one of the more wide-spread usages of Curse so far as I know).
I would suggest to keep the present version as it is (so that it would still "work" for say Bards, Rogues, etc) but then make an offensive stance which is like a bolt spell. If the bolt hits the target (make it some utterly terrible DF table), then the spell goes through as normal with its effect. Then there's a different mechanism to avoid warding.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
But I agree that for sorcerers, it's an auxiliary spell as 715 will always be preferred, but the warding of 413 is mostly irrelevant in the cases we really want to tank a target's TD. On the other hand, sorcerers have access to several bolt spells as well as several maneuver spells to address situations where extremely high TDs are found (and spending 6 seconds just to drop the TD of a nasty creature is rarely an ideal solution). For non-sorcerers, I agree 100% with the OP that the fact of 413 having a warding check rather defeats the practical use for one's own hunting, since a warding check seems silly for a spell intended to drop the warding.
We could drop the check for success any time, although this feels a little like treading on Curse; I agree Curse has many features, so this is only a minor point but also to say, it would be identically duplicating a feature and implementation of an existing spell, and then that aspect of Curse would become the auxiliary component and little used by sorcerers (which is presently one of the more wide-spread usages of Curse so far as I know).
I would suggest to keep the present version as it is (so that it would still "work" for say Bards, Rogues, etc) but then make an offensive stance which is like a bolt spell. If the bolt hits the target (make it some utterly terrible DF table), then the spell goes through as normal with its effect. Then there's a different mechanism to avoid warding.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
<<<I would suggest to keep the present version as it is (so that it would still "work" for say Bards, Rogues, etc) but then make an offensive stance which is like a bolt spell. If the bolt hits the target (make it some utterly terrible DF table), then the spell goes through as normal with its effect. Then there's a different mechanism to avoid warding. >>>
I rather like that idea. :)
~ GtG
I rather like that idea. :)
~ GtG
The present version is nearly useless for the classes you want to preserve it for. Rogues/Warriors aren't going to ward a like level target. Non-post cap bards won't either (not with 400s spells) though bards have 1015.
Saying you don't want to step on curses toes is fine... but saying you want to keep it as a completely dead spell slot for the other classes seems a little unwarrented.
Give it a TD pushdown on cast. Give it an effect which degrades over time and isn't refreshable. Make it apply a 15 TD reduction (that automatically applies, regardless of warding) and another 1 TD reduction for ever 10 points of successful warding. Make it a smaller but stackable effect. There's plenty of room for variation.
Tal.
Saying you don't want to step on curses toes is fine... but saying you want to keep it as a completely dead spell slot for the other classes seems a little unwarrented.
Give it a TD pushdown on cast. Give it an effect which degrades over time and isn't refreshable. Make it apply a 15 TD reduction (that automatically applies, regardless of warding) and another 1 TD reduction for ever 10 points of successful warding. Make it a smaller but stackable effect. There's plenty of room for variation.
Tal.
<<The present version is nearly useless for the classes you want to preserve it for. Rogues/Warriors aren't going to ward a like level target. Non-post cap bards won't either (not with 400s spells) though bards have 1015.
I couldn't agree more. I have 35 MnE with my capped rogue. The only things I'm ever going to ward are low-level creatures that slow my escorts down. I posit that the warrior experience is no different. The only CS attacks in MnE are 409 and 415. From the wizard perspective, since MjE has 501, 505, 516, 519, and other secondary benefits, I'm taking MjE over MnE. The matter doesn't really warrant explanation for the sorcerer perspective.
I'd suggest that, if tweaked, the spell simply uses the highest CS you have (1700 works this way, does it not?). Ultimately, the catch-22 concept of this spell is a little silly to me, though. If you're having a hard time warding with your main circle, 413 suggests that you switch to a secondary circle where your CS is worse so that you can lower TD. It only has a sensible use model for the absurd builds where the secondary circles are emphasized.
If you want to improve your warding odds (with some degree of mana efficiency), you're usually better off using 417 to drop some spells.
I couldn't agree more. I have 35 MnE with my capped rogue. The only things I'm ever going to ward are low-level creatures that slow my escorts down. I posit that the warrior experience is no different. The only CS attacks in MnE are 409 and 415. From the wizard perspective, since MjE has 501, 505, 516, 519, and other secondary benefits, I'm taking MjE over MnE. The matter doesn't really warrant explanation for the sorcerer perspective.
I'd suggest that, if tweaked, the spell simply uses the highest CS you have (1700 works this way, does it not?). Ultimately, the catch-22 concept of this spell is a little silly to me, though. If you're having a hard time warding with your main circle, 413 suggests that you switch to a secondary circle where your CS is worse so that you can lower TD. It only has a sensible use model for the absurd builds where the secondary circles are emphasized.
If you want to improve your warding odds (with some degree of mana efficiency), you're usually better off using 417 to drop some spells.
For me, as a Sorcerer, I use it to increase the warding margin. Not to help me be more successful in warding. The point is to increase your end-rolls instead.
Find a target you can ward decently, debuff their TD to the point where you can ward them massively. Utilize spells like 719 / 519 where the higher the warding margin the more likely the spell will obliterate the target - and you can find value in 413 with it's current incarnation. Not super useful, but it has a place.
I can definitely see reasons for fixing the spell to include lore that helps make that warding process easier as it currently stands Bards and Wizards specifically would see a great deal more value in spending 13 mana on this spell to help with difficult-to-ward targets since there is no other good way to push TD down for those classes. Let's hope this aspect is improved as part of the ELR.
Find a target you can ward decently, debuff their TD to the point where you can ward them massively. Utilize spells like 719 / 519 where the higher the warding margin the more likely the spell will obliterate the target - and you can find value in 413 with it's current incarnation. Not super useful, but it has a place.
I can definitely see reasons for fixing the spell to include lore that helps make that warding process easier as it currently stands Bards and Wizards specifically would see a great deal more value in spending 13 mana on this spell to help with difficult-to-ward targets since there is no other good way to push TD down for those classes. Let's hope this aspect is improved as part of the ELR.
<<The present version is nearly useless for the classes you want to preserve it for. Rogues/Warriors aren't going to ward a like level target. Non-post cap bards won't either (not with 400s spells) though bards have 1015
That's fair. I hadn't really thought about it that way. I do still like the idea of having it use Spell Aiming in an offensive stance with an AS/DS check, but I'll rescind my comments for classes that aren't wizards and sorcerers, who ARE the main users of this spell at present.
>The only CS attacks in MnE are 409 and 415
This is the counter-point, though. Rogues don't seem to have much use for this spell. Bards might have a better case.
>Ultimately, the catch-22 concept of this spell is a little silly to me, though.
I couldn't agree more, and was just spitballing some alternatives.
A lore benefit of some kind seems very likely. Hopefully it will be less of a cantrip than the ones so far, since it's a level 13 offensive spell.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
That's fair. I hadn't really thought about it that way. I do still like the idea of having it use Spell Aiming in an offensive stance with an AS/DS check, but I'll rescind my comments for classes that aren't wizards and sorcerers, who ARE the main users of this spell at present.
>The only CS attacks in MnE are 409 and 415
This is the counter-point, though. Rogues don't seem to have much use for this spell. Bards might have a better case.
>Ultimately, the catch-22 concept of this spell is a little silly to me, though.
I couldn't agree more, and was just spitballing some alternatives.
A lore benefit of some kind seems very likely. Hopefully it will be less of a cantrip than the ones so far, since it's a level 13 offensive spell.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
Personally, I always thought it should either be automatic (like the one affecting the target's AS is), OR it should give itself its own TD pushdown (like Unravel/1013 does).
HOWEVER, should that be the case, then I would also want Depression/1015 to get its own pushdown.
Two levels higher and in a Semi-Profession list, I don't have any qualms about Depression being mass-targeted.
However, I would be totally alright with seeing Saturation/413 gaining multiple additional targets, based on Lore. Or MC:Elemental. Or something.
HOWEVER, should that be the case, then I would also want Depression/1015 to get its own pushdown.
Two levels higher and in a Semi-Profession list, I don't have any qualms about Depression being mass-targeted.
However, I would be totally alright with seeing Saturation/413 gaining multiple additional targets, based on Lore. Or MC:Elemental. Or something.
