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Traplore (404) has been updated to reduce disarming roundtimes based on Elemental Lore: Water ranks. A seed 6 summation will reduce roundtime by 1 second per bonus.
Ixix
With Lore seeds, I generally try to say "per step" or some equivalent, because "bonus" appears in entirely too many places for resulting in confusion to a player reading. (Like, I don't know... their "skill" readout?)
.
Speaking of the "Skill" readout.
How difficult would it be to add a ten-column grid to that, after the Enhanced column, which shows WHICH STEP of each seed the character is receiving?
(i.e. the line for
"Elemental Lore: Water . . . . . . 52 | 152 63 | 163" [he's wearing a +10 ranks or +10 bonus Enhancive]
would be changed up and read:
"Elemental Lore: Water . . . . . . 52 | 152 63 | 163 | | 10+ | 9+ | 9 | 8+ | 7+ | 7 | 6+ | 6 | 5+ | 5+"
instead.
[I used "+" to indicate that the character is working his way through the--for example with Seed1--eleventh step; just the digit by itself means that you have exactly the Lore ranks to hit that step.])
.
Speaking of the "Skill" readout.
How difficult would it be to add a ten-column grid to that, after the Enhanced column, which shows WHICH STEP of each seed the character is receiving?
(i.e. the line for
"Elemental Lore: Water . . . . . . 52 | 152 63 | 163" [he's wearing a +10 ranks or +10 bonus Enhancive]
would be changed up and read:
"Elemental Lore: Water . . . . . . 52 | 152 63 | 163 | | 10+ | 9+ | 9 | 8+ | 7+ | 7 | 6+ | 6 | 5+ | 5+"
instead.
[I used "+" to indicate that the character is working his way through the--for example with Seed1--eleventh step; just the digit by itself means that you have exactly the Lore ranks to hit that step.])
Give locksmiths a portable bench that holds say 4-5 boxes, the locksmith has a verb to open up placing boxes on the bench to the customer. Then if the customer has 5 boxes he can put them on the bench and the smith go to work. Its all the handling back and forth while emptying the coins and other contents that's the problem. All the handing the wrong thing over etc...
Just an elf about town...
Just an elf about town...
Draxun, this appears no different than
https://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/lores.asp#Summation
It still requires Aranthius to figure things out.
.
Hence my request--in message #732, this topic--to include the relevant step information right on the 'skill' display in-game.
https://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/lores.asp#Summation
It still requires Aranthius to figure things out.
.
Hence my request--in message #732, this topic--to include the relevant step information right on the 'skill' display in-game.
These lore benefits to 403/404 are a rather tough sell. Due to the experience mechanics of picking/disarming, people aren't likely to use the spells any more than before. Due to the high sum seed, people aren't likely to be drawn into training for it. Given the governing concept "Air: time alteration and utility" (which dates back to the ELR under Naos), wouldn't this make sense to have the spell affected my air lore? Also there's the bard case to consider as well. It would be nice if semi/square professions that wants to splash elemental lore didn't have to diversify for very tertiary benefits, given the training expense. I really like the nature of the benefits but the implementation (on 403/404 at least) seems quite underwhelming to me.
I realize that all of the cards aren't on the table yet (and there are a lot of cards yet to be played). Perhaps the ELR will be more satisfying on the whole but I have a sneaking suspicion that there was a moment of "we need to diversify these bonuses, even if a little strange, so that air lore isn't so stacked" in this instance.
I realize that all of the cards aren't on the table yet (and there are a lot of cards yet to be played). Perhaps the ELR will be more satisfying on the whole but I have a sneaking suspicion that there was a moment of "we need to diversify these bonuses, even if a little strange, so that air lore isn't so stacked" in this instance.
I would swear he wanted something that he didn't have to figure stuff out about.
(Though I agree that "learning to read a cross-referenced chart" is a lot easier than sitting there adding "six plus seven plus eight plus nine plus... how many ranks do I have, anyhow?")
However, I submit that typing 'skill' in-game and discovering that this line of Lore that I have 33 ranks in would amount to:
...would be even easier on the player.
Then they just have to know which seed (column) they're paying attention to.
(Though I agree that "learning to read a cross-referenced chart" is a lot easier than sitting there adding "six plus seven plus eight plus nine plus... how many ranks do I have, anyhow?")
However, I submit that typing 'skill' in-game and discovering that this line of Lore that I have 33 ranks in would amount to:
| Seed | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 |
| Step | 7+ | 6+ | 6 | 5+ | 4+ | 3+ | 2+ | 2+ | 2+ | 2 |
...would be even easier on the player.
Then they just have to know which seed (column) they're paying attention to.
Well, it's hard to read when you're looking at just one Lore.
But if you know that need Seed1 (for Strength/Earth) and Seed6 (for Pick Enhance/Water) and SeedSomethingElse (for a spell I can't think of),
then you type 'skill' in-game,
see four lines of stuff for the Elemental Lores you're trained in,
and on the 'Earth' line you stop in column #1 (yes, the columns should be headed) and it says "You Get 5 Steps of Benefit!" [because you have exactly 15 ranks]
while on the 'Water' line you stop in column #6 and it says "You get 1+ Step of Benefit!" (because you have more than 6 ranks but fewer than 13 [i.e. 7-12]).
Being able to tell the amount of benefit while in-game and without thinking--other than typing 'skill'--is a useful addition. And we have computers to do factorial-style addition for us.
But if you know that need Seed1 (for Strength/Earth) and Seed6 (for Pick Enhance/Water) and SeedSomethingElse (for a spell I can't think of),
then you type 'skill' in-game,
see four lines of stuff for the Elemental Lores you're trained in,
and on the 'Earth' line you stop in column #1 (yes, the columns should be headed) and it says "You Get 5 Steps of Benefit!" [because you have exactly 15 ranks]
while on the 'Water' line you stop in column #6 and it says "You get 1+ Step of Benefit!" (because you have more than 6 ranks but fewer than 13 [i.e. 7-12]).
Being able to tell the amount of benefit while in-game and without thinking--other than typing 'skill'--is a useful addition. And we have computers to do factorial-style addition for us.
Based upon how goals-driven mechanics inquiry is, I think the existing charts are the best way to make sense of summation seed. That is, someone is usually interested in these charts because they asked "how many ranks do I need to achieve a bonus of x?" The player can see their current state and make projections about their training. It's a master chart in this sense.
I personally question the merit of that kind of vague overview of ones current lore state. Maybe a SPELL LORE command would be more useful that gave a breakdown of how your current lore training affected your known spells. I'm not sure I'd consider it a good investment of resources, though, given that the information can already be looked up easily enough by typing a couple of words into the wiki.
I personally question the merit of that kind of vague overview of ones current lore state. Maybe a SPELL LORE command would be more useful that gave a breakdown of how your current lore training affected your known spells. I'm not sure I'd consider it a good investment of resources, though, given that the information can already be looked up easily enough by typing a couple of words into the wiki.
It's nice that this was added... But it's something I would probably not invest points in. 3m experience and having to tack another mil on just isn't really worth it. I would of thought skill would trump lores for how fast you can disarm a box. Most of the time you want to maximize your experience gain and probably wouldn't have 404 up. This doesn't really fix anything for the state of picking it just helps by punishing a dedicated picker even further.
Half a capped character's worth of experience to still not be as good as the town picker for something you can't make a living off of. Should a skill that comes natural to a rogue really have a lore dependency? And if so shouldn't rogues get more of a bonus from it vs any other class?
Half a capped character's worth of experience to still not be as good as the town picker for something you can't make a living off of. Should a skill that comes natural to a rogue really have a lore dependency? And if so shouldn't rogues get more of a bonus from it vs any other class?
"Maybe a SPELL LORE command would be more useful that gave a breakdown of how your current lore training affected your known spells." -- EastmanM3
I was juuuuust getting ready to suggest adding the relevant Lore and Mana Control achievements to the "spell all" command. Good job for beating me to it! :)
I was juuuuust getting ready to suggest adding the relevant Lore and Mana Control achievements to the "spell all" command. Good job for beating me to it! :)
Neovik, could you expound on why you think this punishes rogues further? I get that you don't feel like it is worth the investment and that you disagree that rogues should be offered incentives to train in lores (though I would argue it is no worse than having incentives to learn up to 430/120). I don't understand why you feel you are worse off now then before the changes though.
Taluric.
Taluric.
We are worse off in the sense that we can now expect nothing to be done to help make picking more viable. This change just puts us deeper invested in picking so people will maybe choose us over the town locksmith. Why do anything now when we can invest another million experience to pick faster for a couple people that actually seek out smiths and not even come close to frying or matching the speed of a townsmith that defys logic that can crack a box open instantly. So instead of helping fix the system it's put on us to invest further into it to make it better. Spend several years completing lock mastery to reduce rt on locks (makes a bit more sense but painful) and invest a year's worth of my life to learn lores to pick faster.
Let's not forget there are other methods of getting boxes open with far less experience investment with low risk if you know what you are doing. Won't have to worry about breaking a pick that'll cost you a few mil to make too.
In order to get the benefit of disarming a trap quicker we have to have 404 up all the time which will penalize us for experience gain. Maybe if the lores impacted us without the spell or we didn't get penalize it would make more sense. 403 does the same thing. For me when I was a full time picker I would only use 403 or 404 maybe once out of 20+ boxes sitting at the tower. But in order for me to pick faster or not risk an expensive pick I would have to take the penalty and toss up 403 or 404... You can fumble at any time even with boxes that are within the difficulty of the lock and with a fumble a snap follows.
Sorry I'm a bit clustered in this response...My thumb hurts... Been typing on here on a phone.
Let's not forget there are other methods of getting boxes open with far less experience investment with low risk if you know what you are doing. Won't have to worry about breaking a pick that'll cost you a few mil to make too.
In order to get the benefit of disarming a trap quicker we have to have 404 up all the time which will penalize us for experience gain. Maybe if the lores impacted us without the spell or we didn't get penalize it would make more sense. 403 does the same thing. For me when I was a full time picker I would only use 403 or 404 maybe once out of 20+ boxes sitting at the tower. But in order for me to pick faster or not risk an expensive pick I would have to take the penalty and toss up 403 or 404... You can fumble at any time even with boxes that are within the difficulty of the lock and with a fumble a snap follows.
Sorry I'm a bit clustered in this response...My thumb hurts... Been typing on here on a phone.
Since we are already down this road... Maybe an alternative is that if you already know 403/404 and you have the lores. Make the benefits passive without the spells being casted?
So...
- passive 403/404 if self learned with lores. Cast 403/404 for the skill increase.
- Remove 407 and 408. (I would hate losing it... But meh... I'll have to find a picker or relearn picking to cap then)
- Decrease the amount of ranks needed in the lores for the rt reduction.
- Make the town picker more realistic with some rt. I know people won't like that but it makes no sense that it can be opened instantly. I get RT for everthing I do... From repairing/creating picks and making wedges. The amount of rt involved for a PC picker is ridiculous. People can live with a little rt at the town picker.
So...
- passive 403/404 if self learned with lores. Cast 403/404 for the skill increase.
- Remove 407 and 408. (I would hate losing it... But meh... I'll have to find a picker or relearn picking to cap then)
- Decrease the amount of ranks needed in the lores for the rt reduction.
- Make the town picker more realistic with some rt. I know people won't like that but it makes no sense that it can be opened instantly. I get RT for everthing I do... From repairing/creating picks and making wedges. The amount of rt involved for a PC picker is ridiculous. People can live with a little rt at the town picker.
Also investing in 430/120 over picking made my quality of life a lot better. I can now hunt things that actually drop boxes. Before that I could barely survive on plane four and still not get boxes to pick. Now I can go into the scatter and constantly get boxes that I can pop and wedge open. Just have to live with the shame with taking a few boxes to the town smith and that I'm not opening them the right way :(
So with 430/120 I can now fry outside of group bandits. Definitely a massive difference.
So with 430/120 I can now fry outside of group bandits. Definitely a massive difference.
>- passive 403/404 if self learned with lores. Cast 403/404 for the skill increase.
I like that idea a lot with these ELR changes! It doesn't make the lore costs more practical for many people, nor necessarily incline a rogue to train in EL, but again, this is the ELR so...
>- Remove 407 and 408. (I would hate losing it... But meh... I'll have to find a picker or relearn picking to cap then)
I'm definitely not so thrilled about that notion. I know it takes something away from the number of people seeking locksmiths, but there are those of us out there that enjoy popping them open, too...even if there's almost no experience gain.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
I like that idea a lot with these ELR changes! It doesn't make the lore costs more practical for many people, nor necessarily incline a rogue to train in EL, but again, this is the ELR so...
>- Remove 407 and 408. (I would hate losing it... But meh... I'll have to find a picker or relearn picking to cap then)
I'm definitely not so thrilled about that notion. I know it takes something away from the number of people seeking locksmiths, but there are those of us out there that enjoy popping them open, too...even if there's almost no experience gain.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
So is the minimum round time for disarming traps 5 seconds, no matter what your lore or skill or anything is?
I was excited for this change because my rogue is mostly just a lockpicker, he picks all of my boxes, he enjoys it, it's his life's purpose. Rumors say he was born with a silver lockpick in his mouth.
But I digress!
I quickly used his saved up fixskills to unlearn a lot of skills just to be able to pick up 91 ranks of water lore...and I mean a LOT of skills.
But hey, quicker disarming time? That sounds like the deal of the century!
It's really not though.
The fastest disarm time I've seen him do is 5 seconds. Granted most of his disarming seems to be 5 seconds but he still has some hiccups now and then where he has more. I checked some older logs before I switched him over to water lore and sure enough, he was already frequently getting 5 second round times, but to be fair not as often as he is now.
So...like...did I just waste, what, millions of experience worth of training points just to sometimes reduce his disarming roundtime by a couple of seconds?
Is this a bug? Is this by design? Have the lockpicking Gods just decided to forsake my Rogue after all of these years because they are jealous of his lockpicking prowess?
I have spoken with literally everyone in Elanthia and they are demanding answers. Not sure how much longer I can keep the hordes at bay but I'm trying my best.
I was excited for this change because my rogue is mostly just a lockpicker, he picks all of my boxes, he enjoys it, it's his life's purpose. Rumors say he was born with a silver lockpick in his mouth.
But I digress!
I quickly used his saved up fixskills to unlearn a lot of skills just to be able to pick up 91 ranks of water lore...and I mean a LOT of skills.
But hey, quicker disarming time? That sounds like the deal of the century!
It's really not though.
The fastest disarm time I've seen him do is 5 seconds. Granted most of his disarming seems to be 5 seconds but he still has some hiccups now and then where he has more. I checked some older logs before I switched him over to water lore and sure enough, he was already frequently getting 5 second round times, but to be fair not as often as he is now.
So...like...did I just waste, what, millions of experience worth of training points just to sometimes reduce his disarming roundtime by a couple of seconds?
Is this a bug? Is this by design? Have the lockpicking Gods just decided to forsake my Rogue after all of these years because they are jealous of his lockpicking prowess?
I have spoken with literally everyone in Elanthia and they are demanding answers. Not sure how much longer I can keep the hordes at bay but I'm trying my best.
>Yes, there is and always has been a 5 second minimum for disarm roundtime.
Well that just sucks. Can this roundtime be removed for someone training in water lore? At least down to 1 second?
I feel like I just wasted all of those points because I'm not seeing much of a benefit here. I mean, I guess the reduced damage to my lockpicks from 403 is also nice but I hardly ever damage my picks, much less break them. I mostly wanted the roundtime reduction, of which I am seeing very little of.
Here are the roundtimes from 10 random traps I disarmed pre water lore:
21
5
18
12
7
7
14
26
10
13
That means 60% of the time I'm not getting the full benefit of my (very expensive) water lore training. 10% of the time I'm not getting any benefit at all and another 20% of the time I'm getting very little benefit. The angry villagers have grabbed pitchforks and torches! I fear the gate won't hold much longer!
Well that just sucks. Can this roundtime be removed for someone training in water lore? At least down to 1 second?
I feel like I just wasted all of those points because I'm not seeing much of a benefit here. I mean, I guess the reduced damage to my lockpicks from 403 is also nice but I hardly ever damage my picks, much less break them. I mostly wanted the roundtime reduction, of which I am seeing very little of.
Here are the roundtimes from 10 random traps I disarmed pre water lore:
21
5
18
12
7
7
14
26
10
13
That means 60% of the time I'm not getting the full benefit of my (very expensive) water lore training. 10% of the time I'm not getting any benefit at all and another 20% of the time I'm getting very little benefit. The angry villagers have grabbed pitchforks and torches! I fear the gate won't hold much longer!
>Does it help your RT with both detecting and disarming?
Good question. If it helped with both detecting and disarming I wouldn't mind at all.
As far as I can tell from my logs though it doesn't look like it. Again looking at 10 random traps pre water lore I had a 5 second detection roundtime 70% of the time, I also had values of 7, 12, and 13.
Post water lore my detection roundtimes were 5 seconds only 60% of the time, but I doubt water lore made this worse, just random and all that. However the highest value I saw was 14 seconds so...I'm willing to bet it does not help with detection roundtime at all.
Good question. If it helped with both detecting and disarming I wouldn't mind at all.
As far as I can tell from my logs though it doesn't look like it. Again looking at 10 random traps pre water lore I had a 5 second detection roundtime 70% of the time, I also had values of 7, 12, and 13.
Post water lore my detection roundtimes were 5 seconds only 60% of the time, but I doubt water lore made this worse, just random and all that. However the highest value I saw was 14 seconds so...I'm willing to bet it does not help with detection roundtime at all.
Speaking of 403 and 404, is there anyway to make the lore benefit passive? Most of the time you don't actually want these spells on because you get a lot less experience with them on if you're picking/disarming something that is easy for you.
How about if you have water lore and you cast 403/404 you get a buff that lasts 2 minutes and the buff is what gives you the water lore bonus from 403/404. That way you can cast 403/404, get the buff, then stop 403/404 so you're not affecting how much experience you get but you still have the 2 minute buff so you're still getting the water lore benefits.
Maybe the 2 minute buff can even be refreshable by recasting 403/404.
How about if you have water lore and you cast 403/404 you get a buff that lasts 2 minutes and the buff is what gives you the water lore bonus from 403/404. That way you can cast 403/404, get the buff, then stop 403/404 so you're not affecting how much experience you get but you still have the 2 minute buff so you're still getting the water lore benefits.
Maybe the 2 minute buff can even be refreshable by recasting 403/404.
<<<Speaking of 403 and 404, is there anyway to make the lore benefit passive? Most of the time you don't actually want these spells on because you get a lot less experience with them on if you're picking/disarming something that is easy for you.>>>
This is a really valid point. I think the 403 and 404 lore buffs are nice, but you can't get them without also killing your EXP. We have multiple ways of casting spells. Perhaps a CHANNEL option? For example, channeling the spell would only cast the lore buff, but not the EXP-killing pick/disarm enhancement.
Ideally, of course, I'd like to see some way of minimizing the EXP loss from using lores on challenging boxes. That would also solve this problem.
Regarding the RT, however...I think getting 5 seconds 70% of the time is pretty fabulous. I rarely get anything near that, even with haste. Granted, it does seem like an awful lot of lore for just that.
~ GtG
This is a really valid point. I think the 403 and 404 lore buffs are nice, but you can't get them without also killing your EXP. We have multiple ways of casting spells. Perhaps a CHANNEL option? For example, channeling the spell would only cast the lore buff, but not the EXP-killing pick/disarm enhancement.
Ideally, of course, I'd like to see some way of minimizing the EXP loss from using lores on challenging boxes. That would also solve this problem.
Regarding the RT, however...I think getting 5 seconds 70% of the time is pretty fabulous. I rarely get anything near that, even with haste. Granted, it does seem like an awful lot of lore for just that.
~ GtG
>Regarding the RT, however...I think getting 5 seconds 70% of the time is pretty fabulous. I rarely get anything near that
Sure. But I don't know if it's higher levels or more disarming ranks or higher dex or what as to why I apparently disarm faster than you, but my logs show I was already disarming pretty darn fast prior to the water lore. As I said sometimes this lore bonus does me literally no good because I was already getting 5 second roundtimes, sometimes it does me very little good because quite often I was already getting 7 second roundtimes so it's shaving off 2 seconds even though it should be shaving off 9 seconds. Now obviously I don't expect this lore change to give me negative roundtime but lowering the roundtime to 1 second would be nice. It would actually be an awesome additional perk if the only way to get disarm roundtime below 5 seconds (outside of haste) would be with this water lore.
Otherwise why did I waste all of that experience for a 9 second roundtime reduction when in fact most of the time I'm going to see between 0 and 4 second roundtime reductions?
Sure. But I don't know if it's higher levels or more disarming ranks or higher dex or what as to why I apparently disarm faster than you, but my logs show I was already disarming pretty darn fast prior to the water lore. As I said sometimes this lore bonus does me literally no good because I was already getting 5 second roundtimes, sometimes it does me very little good because quite often I was already getting 7 second roundtimes so it's shaving off 2 seconds even though it should be shaving off 9 seconds. Now obviously I don't expect this lore change to give me negative roundtime but lowering the roundtime to 1 second would be nice. It would actually be an awesome additional perk if the only way to get disarm roundtime below 5 seconds (outside of haste) would be with this water lore.
Otherwise why did I waste all of that experience for a 9 second roundtime reduction when in fact most of the time I'm going to see between 0 and 4 second roundtime reductions?
I believe it's some reason related to speed at which you can gain experience. Though I find that argument to be somewhat malarky since you can fry super fast hunting using spells, multistrike, etc...
Besides, if that bum Larton can do it, why not a capped super-trained picker? Seems unfair.
>Besides, if that bum Larton can do it, why not a capped super-trained picker? Seems unfair.
That's what I'm talking 'bout.
Just seems kind of silly to have this lore benefit that is already pretty limited (not every box is trapped) then further limit it by not always giving the full benefit. Like, on average out of 10 boxes I might shave off 4 or 5 seconds total with the way it's currently setup. That's a pretty low number considering each box is going to take at least 25 seconds to open.
Or just make this lore benefit affect checking for traps as well and all will be great in the world :D
That's what I'm talking 'bout.
Just seems kind of silly to have this lore benefit that is already pretty limited (not every box is trapped) then further limit it by not always giving the full benefit. Like, on average out of 10 boxes I might shave off 4 or 5 seconds total with the way it's currently setup. That's a pretty low number considering each box is going to take at least 25 seconds to open.
Or just make this lore benefit affect checking for traps as well and all will be great in the world :D
So where do we stand on improving water lore to be able to drop roundtimes down to 1 second? Where do we stand on making the water lore changes for 403/404 be passive buffs? Water lore reduces roundtime for checking for traps?
Like...
"Great ideas! We are working on them now!"
Or...
"Great ideas, but we won't be implementing them."
Or...
"We are still discussing them."
Or...
"They are horrible ideas and you should feel bad."
Come on. I can't help but feel I'm the only person in the game who invested 91 ranks in water lore just for these 403/404 changes and I gotta say, speaking as that only person (or at the very least probably the only rogue to do so) that these changes are in need of some serious buffs. I'm sure they sounded awesome on paper but they are turning out to be pretty lackluster in practice.
Like...
"Great ideas! We are working on them now!"
Or...
"Great ideas, but we won't be implementing them."
Or...
"We are still discussing them."
Or...
"They are horrible ideas and you should feel bad."
Come on. I can't help but feel I'm the only person in the game who invested 91 ranks in water lore just for these 403/404 changes and I gotta say, speaking as that only person (or at the very least probably the only rogue to do so) that these changes are in need of some serious buffs. I'm sure they sounded awesome on paper but they are turning out to be pretty lackluster in practice.
