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ReplyJust for those that think bolting isn't viable for clerics;
<You gesture at a war griffin.
<You shoot strands of webbing at a war griffin!
<AS: +479 vs DS: +302 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +81 = +291
<... and hit for 92 points of damage!
<The war griffin tries desperately to keep footing but falls on rear instead.
<A war griffin is firmly webbed in place.
<A war griffin tumbles to the ground!
<Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
<You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Fire Spirit spell...
<Your spell is ready.
<You gesture at a war griffin.
<You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a war griffin!
<AS: +479 vs DS: +195 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +67 = +395
<... and hit for 116 points of damage!
<Flames cook a war griffin's chest. Looks about medium well.
<[You have 8 kills remaining.]
<And with the addition of 117
<You gesture at a war griffin.
<You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a war griffin!
<AS: +554 vs DS: +264 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +77 = +411
<... and hit for 110 points of damage!
<Flames incinerate right leg to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
<The webbing around a war griffin catches fire!
<... 25 points of damage!
<Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.
<The guiding force leaves you.
<The roaring ball of fire strikes a war griffin, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
<... 10 points of damage!
<Minor burns to right arm. That hurts a bit.
<Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Leafiara said (on the other thread)
>>I think I've met one bolting cleric ever and he was only ~1.6x Spell Aiming at the time (level 45-ish with 77 SA) and I wouldn't be surprised if he's dropped off by now. Meanwhile, no less than five melee clerics floating around the Landing, myself included...
You're met more than one! There's Katie and I know of several others.
Katie did her first 40 levels as a repelling/OHE cleric about 20 years ago and her last 60 levels as a runestaff cleric under GS4. I've had her 2x in spell aim since level 40 when I came back several years ago. While leveling, she used CS spells for solo hunting (usually undead) and bolting for group hunting and/or the living. Particularly when you want to tag along with bandits that are above your head, the bolting is nice.
As a capped cleric, I often bolt with 240 when soloing living things like bandits and pretty much most of the time in grouped hunting. I also find bolting is better for me than CS spells for big invasions.
During the horrible "magic fizzle" times in the storyline, I wondered if it would be viable to return Katie to OHE so tried it on the test server. I was absolutely shocked by how low her AS was -- I want to say it was just over 400, fully spelled, with 509 and 1606 and a 6x weapon? It was definitely under 420. I played with it for a while trying to figure out how to boost it and couldn't. Bolting with 240 lets Katie cause damage to many things while being in stance guarded 95% of the time so I reluctantly decided there was no alternative to combat magic fizzle.
Also, I think it's an interesting idea to turn 309 into a bolting spell and have 304 open the gate! OR have 320 be a bigger splash type bolt. (Or something else that no one has suggested yet!) It's not like either of those slots are doing much now.
>A silver star blinks overhead. Then another, then another. Clouds in the night sky seem to peel away, revealing the pattern of moon-hued freckles across the backdrop of night.
>>I think I've met one bolting cleric ever and he was only ~1.6x Spell Aiming at the time (level 45-ish with 77 SA) and I wouldn't be surprised if he's dropped off by now. Meanwhile, no less than five melee clerics floating around the Landing, myself included...
You're met more than one! There's Katie and I know of several others.
Katie did her first 40 levels as a repelling/OHE cleric about 20 years ago and her last 60 levels as a runestaff cleric under GS4. I've had her 2x in spell aim since level 40 when I came back several years ago. While leveling, she used CS spells for solo hunting (usually undead) and bolting for group hunting and/or the living. Particularly when you want to tag along with bandits that are above your head, the bolting is nice.
As a capped cleric, I often bolt with 240 when soloing living things like bandits and pretty much most of the time in grouped hunting. I also find bolting is better for me than CS spells for big invasions.
During the horrible "magic fizzle" times in the storyline, I wondered if it would be viable to return Katie to OHE so tried it on the test server. I was absolutely shocked by how low her AS was -- I want to say it was just over 400, fully spelled, with 509 and 1606 and a 6x weapon? It was definitely under 420. I played with it for a while trying to figure out how to boost it and couldn't. Bolting with 240 lets Katie cause damage to many things while being in stance guarded 95% of the time so I reluctantly decided there was no alternative to combat magic fizzle.
Also, I think it's an interesting idea to turn 309 into a bolting spell and have 304 open the gate! OR have 320 be a bigger splash type bolt. (Or something else that no one has suggested yet!) It's not like either of those slots are doing much now.
>A silver star blinks overhead. Then another, then another. Clouds in the night sky seem to peel away, revealing the pattern of moon-hued freckles across the backdrop of night.
Wait, what? We can double in Aimed Spells now?!?
.
<pause to check recorded training>
.
Oh, okay. No, I knew that. Really. <nod>
.
Yeah, I did that, too.
'Back in the day', Clerics were only able to single train any skill that involved an attack (using OB/offensive bonus, what we now call AS/attack strength). Since that meant that Bravery + Heroism made a (fully singled) Cleric with them running exactly == a (fully double-trained) character with either weapons or bolt/ball attacks, yeah: Krakii was fully trained in bolting, and both of her weapon styles (1HCrush, 2Hand). (There was no shield training, at that time.)
So I guess when we got the ability to double, I just continued that 'fully trained' regimen. <nod>
.
<pause to check recorded training>
.
Oh, okay. No, I knew that. Really. <nod>
.
Yeah, I did that, too.
'Back in the day', Clerics were only able to single train any skill that involved an attack (using OB/offensive bonus, what we now call AS/attack strength). Since that meant that Bravery + Heroism made a (fully singled) Cleric with them running exactly == a (fully double-trained) character with either weapons or bolt/ball attacks, yeah: Krakii was fully trained in bolting, and both of her weapon styles (1HCrush, 2Hand). (There was no shield training, at that time.)
So I guess when we got the ability to double, I just continued that 'fully trained' regimen. <nod>
I would call Fehala a bolting cleric. Fully 2x in spell aiming with the lore flares makes it pretty sweet.
I play with a ranger partner 98% of the time, so I don't know if solo hunting would change my hunting tactics, but I do rely on channeled bolts fairly often. I 306 and 118 my way cheerfully through Reim, melting faces off as I go.
Leaves on the Wind - http://lassaran.tumblr.com [Updated 8/28/14]
I play with a ranger partner 98% of the time, so I don't know if solo hunting would change my hunting tactics, but I do rely on channeled bolts fairly often. I 306 and 118 my way cheerfully through Reim, melting faces off as I go.
Leaves on the Wind - http://lassaran.tumblr.com [Updated 8/28/14]
Maags has been 2x SA from the start, used wands for a long while but has always and still hunts with 306, with and without 240. I personally love bolting and always advocate it when asked for advice. And like Katiesa said, it's extremely useful (I usually use 111), group hunting bandits, warcamps, and during invasions.
I'd love to see another, bigger, bolt spell at 320 which would maybe be more effective against living critters. A lot of times 306 kills on the first cast, and usually on the second (without 240) vs undead. I don't really think bolts have to one-shot kill, but they often do:
[The Rift, Scatter]
Steam rises from crevices in the dark earth, making the air swelter and the leaves on the ironwood here withered. The air ripples with the heat, creating a dizzying distortion. From the tree hangs an elf, his arms splayed and affixed to branches, his weight left to bear on his ribcage. Nearby is an emaciated man in a jester's suit of black and purple. His thin lips stretch in a raucous grin of crooked teeth. A long knife in the merryman's spidery digits jabs at the elf as the jester sways and giggles. You also see a murky soul siphon and a thick membranous barrier.
Obvious exits: southwest, west
>
A murky soul siphon positions itself to attack you.
The evanescent shield shrouding you flares to life and absorbs the oncoming blow.
>
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Holy Bolt spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a murky soul siphon.
Your illthorn runestaff glows intensely with a verdant light!
You hurl a stream of holy water at a murky soul siphon!
AS: +515 vs DS: +329 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +66 = +281
... and hit for 113 points of damage!
Large swig of acid enters mouth. Swelling cuts off essential breathing!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the soul siphon's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The soul siphon twitches and writhes spasmodically before collapsing to the floor.
The bright luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
A murky soul siphon glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding a murky soul siphon suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Holy Bolt spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a murky soul siphon.
You hurl a stream of holy water at a murky soul siphon!
AS: +485 vs DS: +321 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +54 = +247
... and hit for 138 points of damage!
Acid eats away the soul siphon's midsection. Not a lot left.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the soul siphon's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The soul siphon twitches and writhes spasmodically before collapsing to the ground.
The bright luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
A murky soul siphon glances around, looking a bit less confident.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
I had many one-shot 306 kills in the scatter this morning!
Against vaespilons on plane 5, 306 probably kills on the first cast 90% of the time. They're only level 93, but they're mean!
I'll also often cast 306 at a critter, then focus on a different one, while the splash finishes off the first one.
I know clerics are basically CS based fighters but bolting (or melee, but not this halfling!) keeps it fun and interesting. I could just 317 everything but it gets boring.
I'd love to see another, bigger, bolt spell at 320 which would maybe be more effective against living critters. A lot of times 306 kills on the first cast, and usually on the second (without 240) vs undead. I don't really think bolts have to one-shot kill, but they often do:
[The Rift, Scatter]
Steam rises from crevices in the dark earth, making the air swelter and the leaves on the ironwood here withered. The air ripples with the heat, creating a dizzying distortion. From the tree hangs an elf, his arms splayed and affixed to branches, his weight left to bear on his ribcage. Nearby is an emaciated man in a jester's suit of black and purple. His thin lips stretch in a raucous grin of crooked teeth. A long knife in the merryman's spidery digits jabs at the elf as the jester sways and giggles. You also see a murky soul siphon and a thick membranous barrier.
Obvious exits: southwest, west
>
A murky soul siphon positions itself to attack you.
The evanescent shield shrouding you flares to life and absorbs the oncoming blow.
>
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Holy Bolt spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a murky soul siphon.
Your illthorn runestaff glows intensely with a verdant light!
You hurl a stream of holy water at a murky soul siphon!
AS: +515 vs DS: +329 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +66 = +281
... and hit for 113 points of damage!
Large swig of acid enters mouth. Swelling cuts off essential breathing!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the soul siphon's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The soul siphon twitches and writhes spasmodically before collapsing to the floor.
The bright luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
A murky soul siphon glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding a murky soul siphon suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Holy Bolt spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a murky soul siphon.
You hurl a stream of holy water at a murky soul siphon!
AS: +485 vs DS: +321 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +54 = +247
... and hit for 138 points of damage!
Acid eats away the soul siphon's midsection. Not a lot left.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the soul siphon's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The soul siphon twitches and writhes spasmodically before collapsing to the ground.
The bright luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a murky soul siphon.
A murky soul siphon glances around, looking a bit less confident.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
I had many one-shot 306 kills in the scatter this morning!
Against vaespilons on plane 5, 306 probably kills on the first cast 90% of the time. They're only level 93, but they're mean!
I'll also often cast 306 at a critter, then focus on a different one, while the splash finishes off the first one.
I know clerics are basically CS based fighters but bolting (or melee, but not this halfling!) keeps it fun and interesting. I could just 317 everything but it gets boring.
I've actually had the opposite experience with my two clerics (one with a runestaff, one with a maul) then most seem to be professing to have. I can't see how trying to get through the low levels with a pure CS cleric is a possibility with being extremely picky about where one hunts. Granted, both of my clerics are in their late 20's still so I'm sure things will change, esp as they get more mana at their disposal.
Pure CS builds for any profession generally means you have to over-train in the spell circles of the spells you're using to get a decent warding margin, since there are few disablers that affect TD... and those that exist are mana hogs. Doing this is all fine and good for sorcerers that see most of their lore bonuses from just one lore until later levels, but clerics seem to be expected to spread their lores out much more and train more in them, esp if they're going to be raising regularly.
Cleric's also only really have two CS spells that are useful for killing, and one of them costs 17 mana. So if you're hunting something 302 isn't effective against at lower levels (under level 30 for sure, possibly til the mid 40's), you're pretty much boned without a bolt or weapon to help (or ending hunts early cause you're plowing through your mana).
My rune staff cleric (Liabo aligned) is trained to take advantage of whatever spells work best against what he's hunting. With the undead gaps around Elanthia, he'd either have to bounce around towns like a pinball or be frustrating as heck to play without access to bolts, esp 111 (an extremely under-rated spell IMO). Even when he's hunting undead, I tend to find myself bolting with him at least as much as using CS spells.
I wouldn't argue against another bolt being added to the cleric's arsenal, but I think what they really need is a good mid-level CS spell that doesn't have major draw-backs. Having a spell that's potentially powerful doesn't do any good if you can never use it because it requires you to stand still in a swarm or its only effective against a fraction of critters one will face.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Pure CS builds for any profession generally means you have to over-train in the spell circles of the spells you're using to get a decent warding margin, since there are few disablers that affect TD... and those that exist are mana hogs. Doing this is all fine and good for sorcerers that see most of their lore bonuses from just one lore until later levels, but clerics seem to be expected to spread their lores out much more and train more in them, esp if they're going to be raising regularly.
Cleric's also only really have two CS spells that are useful for killing, and one of them costs 17 mana. So if you're hunting something 302 isn't effective against at lower levels (under level 30 for sure, possibly til the mid 40's), you're pretty much boned without a bolt or weapon to help (or ending hunts early cause you're plowing through your mana).
My rune staff cleric (Liabo aligned) is trained to take advantage of whatever spells work best against what he's hunting. With the undead gaps around Elanthia, he'd either have to bounce around towns like a pinball or be frustrating as heck to play without access to bolts, esp 111 (an extremely under-rated spell IMO). Even when he's hunting undead, I tend to find myself bolting with him at least as much as using CS spells.
I wouldn't argue against another bolt being added to the cleric's arsenal, but I think what they really need is a good mid-level CS spell that doesn't have major draw-backs. Having a spell that's potentially powerful doesn't do any good if you can never use it because it requires you to stand still in a swarm or its only effective against a fraction of critters one will face.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
<Despite people who keep repeating this, this simply is not true.>
What's the third?
I tried 312 for a bit after I made my last post... without charging it took as many or more casts as Smite to kill anything. With charging, you have to stand in hard RT for 3-6 seconds before it does any damage, plus an additional 3 seconds if it's being channeled. Not exactly an attractive prospect beyond level 30 where almost everything has a dangerous maneuver or in any area where critters move around a lot.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
What's the third?
I tried 312 for a bit after I made my last post... without charging it took as many or more casts as Smite to kill anything. With charging, you have to stand in hard RT for 3-6 seconds before it does any damage, plus an additional 3 seconds if it's being channeled. Not exactly an attractive prospect beyond level 30 where almost everything has a dangerous maneuver or in any area where critters move around a lot.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
<Despite people who keep repeating this, this simply is not true.
If you look back at the spell recap I did less than 12 hours ago, you'll see all the options we have.
<By my count Clerics really only have seven spells that they can utilize for damage while hunting.
<Warding spells - 302, 312, and 317 and if you want to waste mana, 110
<Bolting spells - 306, 111, 118
If I'm missing a spell, please let me know.
If you look back at the spell recap I did less than 12 hours ago, you'll see all the options we have.
<By my count Clerics really only have seven spells that they can utilize for damage while hunting.
<Warding spells - 302, 312, and 317 and if you want to waste mana, 110
<Bolting spells - 306, 111, 118
If I'm missing a spell, please let me know.
312 is a very good alternative on crit immune creatures like non-corps or elementals once you can get a decent warding margin. However, since it does not do any criticals its dangerous since creatures will be able to act immediately and you will not be killing things in one shot. 312 should cause RT and/or make things kneel like the paladin spells.
The best way to use the charging aspect of this spell is to prep the spell and incur the hard RT when there are no creatures around then cast.
The best way to use the charging aspect of this spell is to prep the spell and incur the hard RT when there are no creatures around then cast.
<312 is a very good alternative on crit immune creatures like non-corps or elementals once you can get a decent warding margin. However, since it does not do any criticals its dangerous since creatures will be able to act immediately and you will not be killing things in one shot. 312 should cause RT and/or make things kneel like the paladin< spells.
<The best way to use the charging aspect of this spell is to prep the spell and incur the hard RT when there are no creatures around then cast.
I doubt 312 will ever get that added to it. The spell is sold as a massive damage to health only. Which means skins are not affected by it.
<The best way to use the charging aspect of this spell is to prep the spell and incur the hard RT when there are no creatures around then cast.
I doubt 312 will ever get that added to it. The spell is sold as a massive damage to health only. Which means skins are not affected by it.
<312 is a very good alternative on crit immune creatures like non-corps or elementals once you can get a decent warding margin. However, since it does not do any criticals its dangerous since creatures will be able to act immediately and you will not be killing things in one shot. 312 should cause RT and/or make things kneel like the paladin spells.>
<I doubt 312 will ever get that added to it. The spell is sold as a massive damage to health only. Which means skins are not affected by it.>
711 can drain 35% of a critters max health, put them into 8 sec of hard RT, and doesn't affect skin quality with a modest amount of lore training, no advanced preparation, and no hard RT for the caster... for one less mana. With more advanced lore training, it can do this with an endroll of 141 or higher. Even with three endrolls that take less then the max percentage, it will bring the health of most critters down to the point that a level 1 or 2 spell will finish them off.
312 is also a professional level spell, but requires 6 seconds of hard RT or empty hands and 3 seconds of hard RT to deal the same type of damage... and it still doesn't give the critter hard RT or any other status.
My sorcerer can cast 711 three times and have any critter he can reliably ward dead 80% of the time in the same amount of time my cleric can cast 312 once and still need more casts to finish it off... why shouldn't 312 be able to at least stun for a couple rounds with all the extra vulnerability clerics have to take on to get a decent effect out of it?
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
<I doubt 312 will ever get that added to it. The spell is sold as a massive damage to health only. Which means skins are not affected by it.>
711 can drain 35% of a critters max health, put them into 8 sec of hard RT, and doesn't affect skin quality with a modest amount of lore training, no advanced preparation, and no hard RT for the caster... for one less mana. With more advanced lore training, it can do this with an endroll of 141 or higher. Even with three endrolls that take less then the max percentage, it will bring the health of most critters down to the point that a level 1 or 2 spell will finish them off.
312 is also a professional level spell, but requires 6 seconds of hard RT or empty hands and 3 seconds of hard RT to deal the same type of damage... and it still doesn't give the critter hard RT or any other status.
My sorcerer can cast 711 three times and have any critter he can reliably ward dead 80% of the time in the same amount of time my cleric can cast 312 once and still need more casts to finish it off... why shouldn't 312 be able to at least stun for a couple rounds with all the extra vulnerability clerics have to take on to get a decent effect out of it?
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Well, I'm glad others are having good experiences with bolting clerics! For RP reasons I'm hoping to slowly work my way up to 2x Spell Aiming over the next 7 or 8 levels instead of catching up with warding (which right now is so far behind what's expected of a cleric that you'd believe I'm crazy and you'd be absolutely right).
>I wondered if it would be viable to return Katie to OHE so tried it on the test server. I was absolutely shocked by how low her AS was -- I want to say it was just over 400, fully spelled, with 509 and 1606 and a 6x weapon? It was definitely under 420. I played with it for a while trying to figure out how to boost it and couldn't. Bolting with 240 lets Katie cause damage to many things while being in stance guarded 95% of the time so I reluctantly decided there was no alternative to combat magic fizzle.
We could definitely use some help for AS, but as far as invasions go... In the big groups I had Leafi as OHE originally too (brawling now) and still got my shots in even around level 50 because of Horland's Holler and Kai's Triumph Song. It's even easier with brawling, at least most of the time (noncorporeal undead not so much), and I also wonder how ranged would work out.
AIM: sweetleafiara@gmail.com
>I wondered if it would be viable to return Katie to OHE so tried it on the test server. I was absolutely shocked by how low her AS was -- I want to say it was just over 400, fully spelled, with 509 and 1606 and a 6x weapon? It was definitely under 420. I played with it for a while trying to figure out how to boost it and couldn't. Bolting with 240 lets Katie cause damage to many things while being in stance guarded 95% of the time so I reluctantly decided there was no alternative to combat magic fizzle.
We could definitely use some help for AS, but as far as invasions go... In the big groups I had Leafi as OHE originally too (brawling now) and still got my shots in even around level 50 because of Horland's Holler and Kai's Triumph Song. It's even easier with brawling, at least most of the time (noncorporeal undead not so much), and I also wonder how ranged would work out.
AIM: sweetleafiara@gmail.com
Pure CS advantages: fast levelling, uphunts small amounts solo best, raises best (prior to level 40).
AS advantages: niches with critters that are extremely bolt susceptible, uphunts large amounts in groups best.
For an alt, unless the alt is intended to exploit one of those niches, Pure CS wins hands down, but I wouldn't recommend being without an AS attack (weapon or spell aim both work) on your main character, due to the wider social opportunities it creates.
AS advantages: niches with critters that are extremely bolt susceptible, uphunts large amounts in groups best.
For an alt, unless the alt is intended to exploit one of those niches, Pure CS wins hands down, but I wouldn't recommend being without an AS attack (weapon or spell aim both work) on your main character, due to the wider social opportunities it creates.
I typically skip over the cleric folder because I don't play one.
But it was clearly stated that Wizards can't have nice CS spells because they're supposed to be primarily Bolters. I would feel bitter if clerics gained better bolting abilities unless Wizards were also unchained from their CS prison.
But it was clearly stated that Wizards can't have nice CS spells because they're supposed to be primarily Bolters. I would feel bitter if clerics gained better bolting abilities unless Wizards were also unchained from their CS prison.
>I would feel bitter if clerics gained better bolting abilities unless Wizards were also unchained from their CS prison.
While I understand this, it does raise the question:
How do you feel about empaths, who already have significantly better bolting ability than clerics and are better with CS spells than clerics against a large majority of enemies and are better at swinging weapons than clerics?
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
While I understand this, it does raise the question:
How do you feel about empaths, who already have significantly better bolting ability than clerics and are better with CS spells than clerics against a large majority of enemies and are better at swinging weapons than clerics?
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
<How do you feel about empaths, who already have significantly better bolting ability than clerics and are better with CS spells than clerics against a large majority of enemies and are better at swinging weapons than clerics?>
You forgot about being able to completely heal themselves and apply 30 sec of padding in one fel swoop... I'll take REGENERATE over MIRACLE any day! ::flees::
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
You forgot about being able to completely heal themselves and apply 30 sec of padding in one fel swoop... I'll take REGENERATE over MIRACLE any day! ::flees::
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>>But it was clearly stated that Wizards can't have nice CS spells because they're supposed to be primarily Bolters.
To my knowledge, this has never been stated.
>>I would feel bitter if clerics gained better bolting abilities unless Wizards were also unchained from their CS prison.
If bitterness were a design consideration, almost no class would see improvements.
Viduus
To my knowledge, this has never been stated.
>>I would feel bitter if clerics gained better bolting abilities unless Wizards were also unchained from their CS prison.
If bitterness were a design consideration, almost no class would see improvements.
Viduus
| >>But it was clearly stated that Wizards can't have nice CS spells because they're supposed to be primarily Bolters. |
| To my knowledge, this has never been stated. |
| >>I would feel bitter if clerics gained better bolting abilities unless Wizards were also unchained from their CS prison. |
| If bitterness were a design consideration, almost no class would see improvements. |
| Viduus |
Something something 519 nerfs something something supposed to be bolters.
As far as the second part... Why even have different classes? Just make them all the same. You won't have to be creative when adding new abilities when you just add what other professions can already do.
<You won't have to be creative when adding new abilities when you just add what other professions can already do.>
The problem is, for every person that suggests something new and different for a profession, you have another that says "this other profession has that and we should to".... and every time a profession gets something new and exciting, you get a chorus of folk complaining their profession can't do it too. This is how 740 went from "awesome, for only 30k I can travel clear across Elanthia instantly with this" to "meh, I'd rather spend 5k to travel clear across Elanthia instantly as many times as I want without risking death".
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
The problem is, for every person that suggests something new and different for a profession, you have another that says "this other profession has that and we should to".... and every time a profession gets something new and exciting, you get a chorus of folk complaining their profession can't do it too. This is how 740 went from "awesome, for only 30k I can travel clear across Elanthia instantly with this" to "meh, I'd rather spend 5k to travel clear across Elanthia instantly as many times as I want without risking death".
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Bah, that's what I get for never traveling to the other side of the Mountains.... I didn't realize the chronomage orbs were just zone based (that new way of breaking up transport areas causes me no end of confusion....).
I should have stuck with the "every non-square profession having a pet" or the warrior bonding/paladin bonding examples I was initially going to use.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I should have stuck with the "every non-square profession having a pet" or the warrior bonding/paladin bonding examples I was initially going to use.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
>As far as the second part... Why even have different classes? Just make them all the same. You won't have to be creative when adding new abilities when you just add what other professions can already do.
I'm curious:
Is it specifically bolts that you want protected, or would you also be upset if, say, clerics got no improvements to bolting and instead got one or two new maneuver spells? Wizards are better than clerics at that right now too with 917 and 435, and if a new cleric maneuver spell was made I'd expect it to be on par with or better than those.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
I'm curious:
Is it specifically bolts that you want protected, or would you also be upset if, say, clerics got no improvements to bolting and instead got one or two new maneuver spells? Wizards are better than clerics at that right now too with 917 and 435, and if a new cleric maneuver spell was made I'd expect it to be on par with or better than those.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
| I'm curious: |
| Is it specifically bolts that you want protected, or would you also be upset if, say, clerics got no improvements to bolting and instead got one or two new maneuver spells? Wizards are better than clerics at that right now too with 917 and 435, and if a new cleric maneuver spell was made I'd expect it to be on par with or better than those. |
| https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara |
It's about staying in your lane. 519 was nerfed because Wizards aren't allowed to be on the same level casting CS spells as spiritual pures. If GM design is going to place limitations on one class, those same limitations need to apply to the other classes as well in regard to alternative attack methods.
Clerics = CS
Wizards = AS
Bolting in general, is pretty craptastic. It's why my wizard primarily uses a weapon. 519 was a solid build that required specialized training, basically giving up everything else, and it didn't matter.
I just don't think spiritual pures should be able to have their cake and eat it too. Now, if the GM's want to realize their mistake, and undo the damage caused to wizards who would like to use CS spells, and every class is given all the methods of attack, just in different class specific flavors, I would be in favor of that. But if wizards are going to be pigeon-holed into the AS/bolt system, clerics should stick with what they do best, which is CS spells.
306 and 118 + 111 already create a viable bolting path based upon previous posts in this folder. I would argue that 519 is not viable, and the alternatives are what, 502, which is damage capped. Compare the abilities of each class and you can already see that clerics can bolt better than wizards can cast CS spells.
So no, I don't agree that you should gain more bolting abilities when you're already ahead when comparing what each class can do. One caveat I will add, is that if it's a ball/bolt spell that will ONLY hurt the undead, I could support that addition. Undead are your thing and clerics should be experts in that field.
Also, just to address it, if wizards became the SMRv2 specialists instead of regaining CS parity, I would support that. I understand the desire to have something useful in 309/320, because 514/914/915 are wasted slots for wizards. But if 309/320 is a bolt spell, it should be something specific to undead only instead of pushing clerics further toward bolting-vs-living parity when they have such a huge advantage with CS attacks vs all things.
My feeling on 302 is it should be just as potent on living or undead, regardless of deity, but it should have 3x cost on the one that isn't the favored enemy of your god. This would also open up the potential to have intermediate classes of enemies, where it might cost 2x as much, or protected status (e.g. a Sheru cleric using 302 in the Sheruvian Monastery, or an Arachne cleric using 302 in the Spider Temple), where it might cost 4x as much. Frankly, there ought to be a reward system for wiping out your god's favored enemies, sort of like was implemented in GoS or Voln. This kind of system should be the mechanical basis for all religion in the game, and just eliminate societies.
Also, I don't think it's wise to withhold something from one profession because another is supposed to be best at it. i.e. You can't have it because I can't. Ideally, that something is available to both but it might cost a lot more for one. That's how this game was originally designed. RoleMaster let anyone pick locks but thieves were best at it, because it was cheapest to train for them. Anyone could use directed (bolt) spells, but some professions were meant to use it more than others. This flexibility allowed you to train your character in a way that matched the vision you had for him, not the other way around.
Also, I don't think it's wise to withhold something from one profession because another is supposed to be best at it. i.e. You can't have it because I can't. Ideally, that something is available to both but it might cost a lot more for one. That's how this game was originally designed. RoleMaster let anyone pick locks but thieves were best at it, because it was cheapest to train for them. Anyone could use directed (bolt) spells, but some professions were meant to use it more than others. This flexibility allowed you to train your character in a way that matched the vision you had for him, not the other way around.
Note that RoleMaster gave a free +3/level: with weapons, to Arms users; with bolt/ball spells, to Pure spellcasters... and 1.5/level to Semi's.
Then again, their skill progression was 5 / 2.5 / 1 / .5 (so forty ranks was +90 skill), too. A fully-doubled 9th level character would have +90 from skill, +27 from level, <some amount> from stats.
Then again, pretty few people double-trained in attacks, because you paid the "one-handed Edged" cost for each weapon (i.e. "dagger" or "scimitar" or "broadsword"), not training in the whole category as we do here.
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Under that kind of system, a Semi needed booster spells just to get up to the same level of effectiveness as a weapon swinger, rather than starting at parity (for a bit more cost)... and then tacking spells on top.
Then again, their skill progression was 5 / 2.5 / 1 / .5 (so forty ranks was +90 skill), too. A fully-doubled 9th level character would have +90 from skill, +27 from level, <some amount> from stats.
Then again, pretty few people double-trained in attacks, because you paid the "one-handed Edged" cost for each weapon (i.e. "dagger" or "scimitar" or "broadsword"), not training in the whole category as we do here.
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Under that kind of system, a Semi needed booster spells just to get up to the same level of effectiveness as a weapon swinger, rather than starting at parity (for a bit more cost)... and then tacking spells on top.
Personally speaking, clerics being better at bolting would actually be a distant third to what I'd want for improving the profession. I'd like to be a better bolter, sure, but I'd love to be better at melee or maneuver spells. That's why I asked about maneuver spells, since they along with swinging and bolting have been a major part of my 14.8m exp wizard's hunting experience.
For me, if my cleric suddenly became better at any of those, I wouldn't feel any slight to my wizard--I can say that with certainty because my empath doesn't make me feel any slight to my wizard, even though she's staggeringly better at swinging a weapon and at bolting than my cleric. Even if players were proposing buffs to empaths, I wouldn't push back against that either.
Honestly, players can propose almost anything for any profession and I won't push against it. I can say that with certainty too because a couple hours ago there was a post in the ranger forum asking for targeted Nature's Fury and if that happened, depending on the fine details, it could very well be enough for me to say credibly that rangers would join bards as the second semi better at CS spells than clerics. But I'm not opposed--I'd be all for it.
I'd just keep doing even more of what I do now: advocate for cleric buffs.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
For me, if my cleric suddenly became better at any of those, I wouldn't feel any slight to my wizard--I can say that with certainty because my empath doesn't make me feel any slight to my wizard, even though she's staggeringly better at swinging a weapon and at bolting than my cleric. Even if players were proposing buffs to empaths, I wouldn't push back against that either.
Honestly, players can propose almost anything for any profession and I won't push against it. I can say that with certainty too because a couple hours ago there was a post in the ranger forum asking for targeted Nature's Fury and if that happened, depending on the fine details, it could very well be enough for me to say credibly that rangers would join bards as the second semi better at CS spells than clerics. But I'm not opposed--I'd be all for it.
I'd just keep doing even more of what I do now: advocate for cleric buffs.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
>Personally speaking, clerics being better at bolting would actually be a distant third to what I'd want for improving the profession. I'd like to be a better bolter, sure, but I'd love to be better at melee or maneuver spells. That's why I asked about maneuver spells, since they along with swinging and bolting have been a major part of my 14.8m exp wizard's hunting experience.
>
>For me, if my cleric suddenly became better at any of those, I wouldn't feel any slight to my wizard--I can say that with certainty because my empath doesn't make me feel any slight to my wizard, even though she's staggeringly better at swinging a weapon and at bolting than my cleric. Even if players were proposing buffs to empaths, I wouldn't push back against that either.
I suspect if clerics were brought up to par with empaths on the melee side, several players who converted their cleric to a paladin once upon a time would be upset and want a chance to return. This seems only fair, but it complicates matters. I don't see any obvious balance reasons why a cleric's AS booster shouldn't scale up like 1130 does, as long as the scaling increase only applies to the cleric. It's unfortunate the scaling AS spell isn't in one of the spirit lists, though, for both empath and cleric. Swinging or casting well ought to be more of a conscious training decision, as it is (more or less) with wizards, bards, anyone with MnE, etc. It would also be a conscious decision to raise their offense or raise their defense, since most of that is currently rolled into the profession lists.
>
>For me, if my cleric suddenly became better at any of those, I wouldn't feel any slight to my wizard--I can say that with certainty because my empath doesn't make me feel any slight to my wizard, even though she's staggeringly better at swinging a weapon and at bolting than my cleric. Even if players were proposing buffs to empaths, I wouldn't push back against that either.
I suspect if clerics were brought up to par with empaths on the melee side, several players who converted their cleric to a paladin once upon a time would be upset and want a chance to return. This seems only fair, but it complicates matters. I don't see any obvious balance reasons why a cleric's AS booster shouldn't scale up like 1130 does, as long as the scaling increase only applies to the cleric. It's unfortunate the scaling AS spell isn't in one of the spirit lists, though, for both empath and cleric. Swinging or casting well ought to be more of a conscious training decision, as it is (more or less) with wizards, bards, anyone with MnE, etc. It would also be a conscious decision to raise their offense or raise their defense, since most of that is currently rolled into the profession lists.
| For me, if my cleric suddenly became better at any of those, I wouldn't feel any slight to my wizard--I can say that with certainty because my empath doesn't make me feel any slight to my wizard, even though she's staggeringly better at swinging a weapon and at bolting than my cleric. Even if players were proposing buffs to empaths, I wouldn't push back against that either. |
Just to explain how I view the pures.
Empaths = Living specialists. They're great at killing living things, but average at killing undead.
Clerics = Undead specialists. They are the experts at killing undead things, and average at killing living things.
Wizards = Elemental specialists. They are the bolting experts, but average at killing everything.
Sorcs = Mess you up specialists? Amazing CS powers that let you toy or destroy basically anything. Average bolting abilities due to exceptional CS skills.
So...
Clerics/Empaths/Sorcs > Wizards when it comes to CS spells.
Empaths/Clerics > Sorcs/Wizards when it comes to AS (melee) attacks.
Wizards > Empaths/Clerics/Sorcs when it comes to AS (bolt) spells.
Sorcs/Wizards > Empath/Clerics when it comes to SMRv2 abilities. (Counting 720 as SMRv2)
So...
If Clerics/Empaths remain at the top with CS/Melee, they should remain at the bottom when it comes to SMRv2/Bolts. UNLESS whatever new addition fits into their "specialized" category. IE. Undead only bolt spell for clerics.
Although I do question why you just don't cast 240. It should provide such a huge power boost that CS or Bolt spells should demolish anything you're fighting.
But, let's say 309 becomes Plasma Blast. A "plasma" version of 907 that only works on the undead. Would you be happy with that?
But apparently it's boring. And people keep saying there's something unfair about having to have a spell up to go super saiyan.
I could have walked away from the discussion with the wrong impression, and haven't circled back due to a whack-a-bug game I'm currently playing. My take away from the previous conversation on problems with the class.
-Nothing actually wrong with top end clerics hunting-wise
-There is a bit of a boredom problem for mid-level clerics that get stuck using 302
-There's a desire to see the holes in the spell list fleshed out
Did I miss something on the super saiyan route?
Viduus
From a balance perspective, I'm not aware of anything. I've mentioned 240 + 302 to people before and they respond that they shouldn't have to rely on a short term spell to be good in combat, but never elaborate. Lots of classes have short term things to keep up so it seemed vacuous.
240 is pricey, but 302 is cheap. They average out.
>I suspect if clerics were brought up to par with empaths on the melee side, several players who converted their cleric to a paladin once upon a time would be upset and want a chance to return. This seems only fair, but it complicates matters.
Right, I'd completely understand and agree with that concern, especially pre-cap. A cleric, paladin, and empath were my first three characters when I returned, and I said often for at least a year that my warpath was like the best of my cleric and paladin at the same time.
That does change a bit post-cap when paladins train things like 202 Combat Maneuvers, 202 Dodging, and 100 Spiritual Mana Control (for 1650 uses) that they probably weren't fitting in pre-cap, but I understand that's a minority of paladin players.
I will say, though... there were a few paladins earlier this year asking for a paladin version of chrisms and I didn't say one word of protest, so I'm not at all shy about asking to be better at melee. ;)
>I don't see any obvious balance reasons why a cleric's AS booster shouldn't scale up like 1130 does, as long as the scaling increase only applies to the cleric. It's unfortunate the scaling AS spell isn't in one of the spirit lists, though, for both empath and cleric. Swinging or casting well ought to be more of a conscious training decision, as it is (more or less) with wizards, bards, anyone with MnE, etc. It would also be a conscious decision to raise their offense or raise their defense, since most of that is currently rolled into the profession lists.
Now there's an interesting thought! I checked the math on 3x spells and splits might look like (profession/major/minor):
166/67/70 (the current traditional split)
508 cleric/empath CS, 444 MjS CS, 447 MnS CS.
163/100/40 (if a scaling booster were in major spiritual)
501 cleric/empath CS, 468 MjS CS, 420 MnS CS.
Sacrifices 15 DS from 120, 15 DS from 102 (though melee characters likely aren't casting this, it would be important to bolters), and 27 CS for 135, but gains 24 CS for 214 and 217.
163/40/100 (if it were in minor spiritual)
501 cleric/empath CS, 420 MjS CS, 468 MnS CS.
Sacrifices 9 DS from 202 and 24 CS for 214 and 217, but gains 19 CS for 135.
Ha... if nothing else, that puts into perspective how little is gained by training Major Spiritual past 40 ranks right now.
But that's post-cap, in any case, and I think the more interesting choices would be pre-cap, which is how things are with 425 and 430.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
Right, I'd completely understand and agree with that concern, especially pre-cap. A cleric, paladin, and empath were my first three characters when I returned, and I said often for at least a year that my warpath was like the best of my cleric and paladin at the same time.
That does change a bit post-cap when paladins train things like 202 Combat Maneuvers, 202 Dodging, and 100 Spiritual Mana Control (for 1650 uses) that they probably weren't fitting in pre-cap, but I understand that's a minority of paladin players.
I will say, though... there were a few paladins earlier this year asking for a paladin version of chrisms and I didn't say one word of protest, so I'm not at all shy about asking to be better at melee. ;)
>I don't see any obvious balance reasons why a cleric's AS booster shouldn't scale up like 1130 does, as long as the scaling increase only applies to the cleric. It's unfortunate the scaling AS spell isn't in one of the spirit lists, though, for both empath and cleric. Swinging or casting well ought to be more of a conscious training decision, as it is (more or less) with wizards, bards, anyone with MnE, etc. It would also be a conscious decision to raise their offense or raise their defense, since most of that is currently rolled into the profession lists.
Now there's an interesting thought! I checked the math on 3x spells and splits might look like (profession/major/minor):
166/67/70 (the current traditional split)
508 cleric/empath CS, 444 MjS CS, 447 MnS CS.
163/100/40 (if a scaling booster were in major spiritual)
501 cleric/empath CS, 468 MjS CS, 420 MnS CS.
Sacrifices 15 DS from 120, 15 DS from 102 (though melee characters likely aren't casting this, it would be important to bolters), and 27 CS for 135, but gains 24 CS for 214 and 217.
163/40/100 (if it were in minor spiritual)
501 cleric/empath CS, 420 MjS CS, 468 MnS CS.
Sacrifices 9 DS from 202 and 24 CS for 214 and 217, but gains 19 CS for 135.
Ha... if nothing else, that puts into perspective how little is gained by training Major Spiritual past 40 ranks right now.
But that's post-cap, in any case, and I think the more interesting choices would be pre-cap, which is how things are with 425 and 430.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
For swinging, on both cleric and empath, don't overlook the as boost on 215 from blessings lore, as well as spirit strike. It takes some maintenance but if you reup 117 between enemies, the 75 adds up. And with blessings, you get multiple swings.
I realize it eats a lot of tp for the lore, but since you don't need to pump spell training for cs when you swing, you have points.
My warpath at least uses it often.
| From Archsenex: |
| 240 basically turns 302 into death by holy shotgun. |
| But apparently it's boring. |
Though fun is subjective, for me it has very little to do with power and very much to do with variety. An illustration:
Fun: I could go hunting with my wizard and options I'd keep in mind would be 410, 435, 506, 510, 515, 516, 518, 909, 912, 917, 950, 1707, Feint, and physical attacks because any one of them might be the best thing to do depending on the situation. 510 and 1707 are similar, since both are single-target bolts, but otherwise all these abilities serve very different purposes and are good for different circumstances.
Boring: I could go hunting with my cleric and 240, 302, 312, and 317 would be the options I'd keep in mind as possible best courses of action. The latter three are single-target CS spells and are similar, so there's not much of a thought process to hunting. (A lot of clerics would add 316 and subtract 312, but even if I included both and tossed in 335, it would only be six abilities and three are similar.)
A similar discussion happened briefly and recently in the paladin forum with a couple people mentioning lack of build diversity and bringing up that every paladin uses the same setups as every other paladin, and I agreed with them too about it being a problem. I would have agreed with it more strongly last year, though, and probably had more to say about it since back in January I felt like my cleric and paladin were both total one-trick ponies compared to my empath, wizard, and bard. But this year's been very good to paladins with 1650 and the recent 1625 update that I'm looking forward to trying in a couple of months after I've trained for it. If the 1625 changes are as cool as they look on paper, I think paladins have made huge positive steps forward.
So... one one-trick pony down, one to go. :P
| And people keep saying there's something unfair about having to have a spell up to go super saiyan. |
I can only think of one person I've ever heard this from. Their cleric is in the early 60s, if I remember, which is a level range where 240 is pretty difficult to keep up.
| For swinging, on both cleric and empath, don't overlook the as boost on 215 from blessings lore, as well as spirit strike. It takes some maintenance but if you reup 117 between enemies, the 75 adds up. And with blessings, you get multiple swings. |
Only a chance of multiple swings. I actually have a 39% chance with no enhancives, which I'm almost completely sure is toward the high end among clerics, but warmages are still way better because 506's 1 second swings are a guaranteed effect and empaths are also a whole league above clerics. A capped empath without Spirit Strike is only 20 AS behind a cleric with Spirit Strike, to say nothing of how destructive 1117 can be with mstrikes.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
<Although I do question why you just don't cast 240. It should provide such a huge power boost that CS or Bolt spells should demolish anything you're fighting.>
I suspect it's different close to or post-cap, but 40 mana is a LOT to be spending every 30 seconds for most characters. If you're just hunting to get fried in an area with a high gen rate or in an invasion it's doable, but it'd quickly get frustrating having to wait for mana to regen during a guild task or in an area with lower critter gen rates.
Even my level 79 sorcerer won't use 435/135 outside emergencies cause he knows he can kill most critters with less mana the vast majority of the time... or even whole swarms. I haven't gotten my pure cleric that high yet, but I'm reasonably sure it will be the same for him when he is (well, maybe not swarms, but def individual critters).
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I suspect it's different close to or post-cap, but 40 mana is a LOT to be spending every 30 seconds for most characters. If you're just hunting to get fried in an area with a high gen rate or in an invasion it's doable, but it'd quickly get frustrating having to wait for mana to regen during a guild task or in an area with lower critter gen rates.
Even my level 79 sorcerer won't use 435/135 outside emergencies cause he knows he can kill most critters with less mana the vast majority of the time... or even whole swarms. I haven't gotten my pure cleric that high yet, but I'm reasonably sure it will be the same for him when he is (well, maybe not swarms, but def individual critters).
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
