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Totally agreed.
I've pretty much stopped doing anything but notAFK spellbotting with my mage, since he can't enchant passively anymore. I don't like mage-hunting, I don't want to mage hunt... I'd rather have a very slow trickle of essence and not have to hunt, and still be able to enchant at some point in life, compared to his fairly-useless existence now, beyond being the spellbot that he currently is.
(I do admit, though, that I haven't taken him out hunting since the mana update, so he may be viable at hunting, even though I'd still rather not.)
I've pretty much stopped doing anything but notAFK spellbotting with my mage, since he can't enchant passively anymore. I don't like mage-hunting, I don't want to mage hunt... I'd rather have a very slow trickle of essence and not have to hunt, and still be able to enchant at some point in life, compared to his fairly-useless existence now, beyond being the spellbot that he currently is.
(I do admit, though, that I haven't taken him out hunting since the mana update, so he may be viable at hunting, even though I'd still rather not.)
Thank you for the question since no one else has asked why we hate it so much.
No, experience absorbed would not make it better because it would still require hunting or some sort of activity beyond what we have ALREADY earned. I've played this game for more than 20 years, since I was a teenager, and I've been on and off through the years but my one consistent was that my mage was my favorite character. One of the reasons was because I could enchant, make silver and have gear for my characters with her. I rp and run organizations more than I hunt and my time is limited for the game so I have to weigh my priorities. I am also not the only person playing who has limited time to devote to GS and cannot stand these changes.
Wizards had to go through an enchanting change many years ago and we had to adapt but that change did not require the character to hunt in order to enchant. Enchant is a utility spell and has no business being tied to hunting especially since it never has been and many people created wizards in order to enchant! This radical change (which btw requires somewhere around 6-8 hours a week to earn sufficient essence to enchant and while that may not sound like a lot of hours to some players it's an enormous amount of hours to players with limited time!) is preventing many a mage, like myself and others I know from enchanting anymore. Enchanting in and of itself is time consuming, organizing projects, potions, other potions, storing items etc; and we've prepared for that. Now, it's a whole new beast that makes no sense to people who optimized for decades their mages and have limited time.
I'd like to actually have some fun when I PLAY GS. I don't want to just come in and hunt my one older mage like rinse and repeat. I'd like to hunt younger characters, run my organizations, enjoy my friends, come up with new events, play with fashion, etc. Now, if I want to do a x7 I have to dedicate what hours I can a week for what? 6-8 months? In order to do 1 x7? I have a friend who took a year to gain 1600 essence, this last YEAR. Why? because he doesn't hunt incessantly but does other things too and he has a life outside of GS.
That is really the main problem. This system is too cumbersome for people who don't play 24/7. Sure, I can see where power hunters love it - it limits enchants to only those who can charge more and eliminates competition from more passive players. But eventually it will create a monopoly for enchants from a certain group of players and ice every other mage out. I'm sorry but it's the worst system change I've ever seen in this game and does nothing for people who have had mages for so long. I know we got an extra year to adapt but there is no adapting to this - I wish they'd have let us choose which system we wanted to proceed with or grandfathered in certain mages to the old system because the way it is now sucks all the fun out of enchanting for many - many who are not as vocal as I'm being right now. And IMO, this will hurt the game long term.
I am sure I don't need to tell anyone how life affects time. I had limited time this past year often and didn't get to do as much in the game as I'd have liked but this requirement just adds an additional burden to something I once enjoyed. It's a real blow to me as a player when I can no longer engage in an aspect of my character I enjoyed and get the gain out of it, whether it be silver or just the joy of helping a friend or seeing someone light up when they won a raffle I gave items to. And for the record, I gave away more of my enchants then I ever sold but that's just me and I deny no mage their right to profit from their own work.
Lastly, I loathe, despise and absolutely hate, hate, hate, hate, hate , hate, hate , hate this change! In case I wasn't clear earlier.
Katara
And one more thing!
I do not get why you cannot keep both systems in place? The old system for the passive players who are just fine with it taking a couple of months to do a x7 and the new system for the power hunters who get to x7 faster. What is this obsession with FORCING us to hunt after we've already done that and earned our spell and bonuses etc?!
Ok, I'm a little hot about this subject I admit.
>>That is really the main problem. This system is too cumbersome for people who don't play 24/7.
Yes. Exactly.
The backbone of this game is NOT the powerhunters, no matter how much money they spend at events. The backbone of this game is players like you and others who have been here paying their subscriptions for 20 years and play in their spare time.
To cater to the powerhunting scripters is a dangerous mistake(that has been made before), and I believe the game will suffer for it in the long run. For a number of years we saw the player population dwindle. It has rebounded some lately but that is due to the increase in the casual playerbase. I hope the GMs realize this.
Avaia, player of
Yes. Exactly.
The backbone of this game is NOT the powerhunters, no matter how much money they spend at events. The backbone of this game is players like you and others who have been here paying their subscriptions for 20 years and play in their spare time.
To cater to the powerhunting scripters is a dangerous mistake(that has been made before), and I believe the game will suffer for it in the long run. For a number of years we saw the player population dwindle. It has rebounded some lately but that is due to the increase in the casual playerbase. I hope the GMs realize this.
Avaia, player of
I've been enjoying reading your responses, Katara. If Wizards had retained the old style enchant, what would you suggest each of the other professions get in order to allow them to make silvers without hunting or any other form of experience gain? There clearly is a disparity if Wizards are the only one who can do this, and if the transition to the new style enchant isn't the solution of solving this problem, what is?
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
>I do not get why you cannot keep both systems in place? The old system for the passive players who are just fine with it taking a couple of months to do a x7 and the new system for the power hunters who get to x7 faster. What is this obsession with FORCING us to hunt after we've already done that and earned our spell and bonuses etc?!
Probably one of those things about getting something for nothing. Do nothing, but wait for X number if days and cast.... then repeat until finished.
I don't really enjoy the new system for other reasons, but being forced to hunt is one of them.
Right now one of my wizards is doing a 6x project under the old system. Each temper is 6-7 days (almost always closer to 7). It'll take him roughly 42 days to do this project. The same item under the new system can certainly be done faster.
Old System: 5-6x profect. 6 temper steps, 7 days a step = 42 days
New System: 48,000 essence needed to take the item from +25 to +30. 16k earned a week means 3 weeks of full essence. That's half the time of the old system.
Old System: 6-7x project. Last one I did was roughly 9-10 days a temper. 7 temper steps, 9-10 days a step = 63-70 days
New System: 108,000 essence needed to take the item from +30 to +35. 16k earned a week means 6.75 weeks of essence. That's 2-3 weeks faster than the old system.
I don't see why both sysrems couldn't be left in place. I'd be okay with that. Even if they only allowed one minor and one major project to be active per wizard, I could live with that.
I dislike how restrictive it's become to enchanting items under 4x...cost wise it's outrageous due to the very limited essence any wizard can earn. The low end of the enchanting spectrum is out of balance because of limited essence. I used to do 4x and under enchants for free since it was only time needed to do the casts. Now the restrictive essence I have to farm means I can't simply offer casts due to other projects of my own that I have to save essence for.
Even if you find a wizard willing to sell 19,000 essence at 100 silver per, that's nearly 2mil to get that item from 0 to +20. Sure, it's "instant", but it's costly. I guess I seem to be the only one that is bothered by this, because last time I brought it up only people that support the current system basically told me to stuff it.
Probably one of those things about getting something for nothing. Do nothing, but wait for X number if days and cast.... then repeat until finished.
I don't really enjoy the new system for other reasons, but being forced to hunt is one of them.
Right now one of my wizards is doing a 6x project under the old system. Each temper is 6-7 days (almost always closer to 7). It'll take him roughly 42 days to do this project. The same item under the new system can certainly be done faster.
Old System: 5-6x profect. 6 temper steps, 7 days a step = 42 days
New System: 48,000 essence needed to take the item from +25 to +30. 16k earned a week means 3 weeks of full essence. That's half the time of the old system.
Old System: 6-7x project. Last one I did was roughly 9-10 days a temper. 7 temper steps, 9-10 days a step = 63-70 days
New System: 108,000 essence needed to take the item from +30 to +35. 16k earned a week means 6.75 weeks of essence. That's 2-3 weeks faster than the old system.
I don't see why both sysrems couldn't be left in place. I'd be okay with that. Even if they only allowed one minor and one major project to be active per wizard, I could live with that.
I dislike how restrictive it's become to enchanting items under 4x...cost wise it's outrageous due to the very limited essence any wizard can earn. The low end of the enchanting spectrum is out of balance because of limited essence. I used to do 4x and under enchants for free since it was only time needed to do the casts. Now the restrictive essence I have to farm means I can't simply offer casts due to other projects of my own that I have to save essence for.
Even if you find a wizard willing to sell 19,000 essence at 100 silver per, that's nearly 2mil to get that item from 0 to +20. Sure, it's "instant", but it's costly. I guess I seem to be the only one that is bothered by this, because last time I brought it up only people that support the current system basically told me to stuff it.
Well a lot of the professions have some passive way to gain exp already. Sorc's have that ensorcel thing (and not having a sorc I don't know how it works but I know they make silver from it). Rangers have resistance padding, empaths main source of exp is healing which is a non-hunting activity, clerics raise folks from dead and make chrisms they can sell too. I would sooo not be opposed to clerics and empaths having some sort of hand in a type of padding to add to armor. Having never played a monk or a paladin or a bard I am not as familiar with those professions. Rogues pick for exp and tips and warriors, well they should be the ones forced to hunt as that is really their whole purpose. I would also not be opposed to any of the other professions have a utility spell that added 'value' to weapons and armor or even clothing for that matter like when DS was enchantable back in the day!
But to fundamentally change the performance of a spell this long in use and making it that much harder for passive/casual players to access is not benefiting anyone but power hunters, period.
>If Wizards had retained the old style enchant, what would you suggest each of the other professions get in order to allow them to make silvers without hunting or any other form of experience gain? There clearly is a disparity if Wizards are the only one who can do this, and if the transition to the new style enchant isn't the solution of solving this problem, what is?
Decently trained wizard under the old system, maybe got 12-15 mil for a 7x project.... that, at the time, took upwards of 90-100 days.
New system with the same wizard can get 250-350 silver per essence. In 90 days means 12 full weeks to earn 16k essence a week. So 192,000 essence. Sell that essence for 250-350 silver per means: 48mil to 67.2 mil.
Looks like the GMs gave wizards upwards of 450%+ increase on their enchanting work under the new system....
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to get at. Wizards weren't making silvers hand over fist under the old system. We are under the new system, if you're willing to our have the time to hunt 10-16 hours a week.
Decently trained wizard under the old system, maybe got 12-15 mil for a 7x project.... that, at the time, took upwards of 90-100 days.
New system with the same wizard can get 250-350 silver per essence. In 90 days means 12 full weeks to earn 16k essence a week. So 192,000 essence. Sell that essence for 250-350 silver per means: 48mil to 67.2 mil.
Looks like the GMs gave wizards upwards of 450%+ increase on their enchanting work under the new system....
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to get at. Wizards weren't making silvers hand over fist under the old system. We are under the new system, if you're willing to our have the time to hunt 10-16 hours a week.
I just did a 3rd pour on an old-style 6x this morning, and it said to wait 5-6 days. As you said, that used to be the delay for a 5x, per stage.
I used to routinely see 7x times listed as 13-14 days... and now they're half that. (The project before this one went to 7x, and I was seeing about a week per temper on that one.)
.
I believe that the biggest reason those temper times for 6x and 7x projects are as low as they are is that so many wizards are now doing their Enchanting under the new system. So the counter for "major projects underway" has dropped. (Probably by about half, if I had to guess.)
I used to routinely see 7x times listed as 13-14 days... and now they're half that. (The project before this one went to 7x, and I was seeing about a week per temper on that one.)
.
I believe that the biggest reason those temper times for 6x and 7x projects are as low as they are is that so many wizards are now doing their Enchanting under the new system. So the counter for "major projects underway" has dropped. (Probably by about half, if I had to guess.)
"...some passive way to gain exp already. Sorc's have that ensorcel thing (and not having a sorc I don't know how it works but I know they make silver from it)." -- Katara
To be clear, this is not passive at all. (Unless they are using the self-cast temporary version, which... only gives a benefit if they DO hunt.)
New Model Enchant is a direct derivative of the Ensorcell mechanics: hunt to gain your weekly points.
They had it first, and there was very definitely a hunting requirement.
The announced Monk Tattoo ability is looking to work exactly the same way, and bardic LKP's already do.
To be clear, this is not passive at all. (Unless they are using the self-cast temporary version, which... only gives a benefit if they DO hunt.)
New Model Enchant is a direct derivative of the Ensorcell mechanics: hunt to gain your weekly points.
They had it first, and there was very definitely a hunting requirement.
The announced Monk Tattoo ability is looking to work exactly the same way, and bardic LKP's already do.
What BRodriguez said with all those numbers!
My one point would be we don't get something for nothing with the old system - we ALREADY hunted and worked to get to a certain level and have enough skill to enchant proficiently.
As far as I can see keeping the old system in place in addition would solve a lot of problems with casual v power hunter player mages.
And again, lastly, I loathe, despise and abhor this new system! Don't force me to go out and get killed just to enchant! I have enough to do when in game I don't need to be forced to do anything I do not want to do for a benefit I should have ALREADY earned after 20+ years of play!
Katara
Krakii I never claimed to know much about how it works. I just know they make silver on it which seemed to be the question asked.
And there are two big differences; that ensorcel spell started life out that way while enchant did not and has never until this change required a hunting component. And the sorcs can use the spell while hunting while enchant is not that type of spell. Also, I am so not opposed to removing the hunting requirement because I personally do not feel utility spells of this sort should force you to hunt.
I have no objection to hunting persay, I've enjoyed it. However, as a player if I bargained for a utility spell that did not have a hunting component attached why are the rules suddenly changing on me? And for no good reasons because the new style seems to benefit power hunters with gobs of time on their hands and punishes those of us who do not have the gobs of time. There is no balance here or sense if the reason for this was to limit the amount of high enchants going out .. the only difference is going to be that the stream of high enchants will be consolidated in fewer hands.
I am not a fan of the new system as compared to the old, but I can live with it. I would echo the sentiment that we were never told why these changes were implemented, as they were unpopular with a lot (but in fairness not all) of players.
Intentionally catering to power hunters? This seems to be the popular sentiment, and in the absence of any real answer where many people go.
Too many pocket enchanters cranking out too many high enchant items? Maybe, but I see 5x and 6x weapons on pawnshop tables around pay events pretty regularly.
Trying to combat the recent uptick in diabetes in the wizard population by getting them out for some active exercise? It's for your own good, you wizards are getting fat just laying around and enchanting stuff every 7-14 days.
And this question was asked, but most of the feedback given was selling how great the update was and how it didn't affect your pocket enchanter as badly as you think.
Intentionally catering to power hunters? This seems to be the popular sentiment, and in the absence of any real answer where many people go.
Too many pocket enchanters cranking out too many high enchant items? Maybe, but I see 5x and 6x weapons on pawnshop tables around pay events pretty regularly.
Trying to combat the recent uptick in diabetes in the wizard population by getting them out for some active exercise? It's for your own good, you wizards are getting fat just laying around and enchanting stuff every 7-14 days.
And this question was asked, but most of the feedback given was selling how great the update was and how it didn't affect your pocket enchanter as badly as you think.
Having a year to observe, I noticed that one consequence of moving to this new grind based enchanting system is that there are a lot more script hunting wizard characters around. Some may be completely afk, others fall into that magical category where they don't respond to players, but answer when tested by a GM. I personally like the older system better just for the fewer number of bots it entailed.
*Trying to combat the recent uptick in diabetes in the wizard population by getting them out for some active exercise? It's for your own good, you wizards are getting fat just laying around and enchanting stuff every 7-14 days.* -Malmuddy
That's it! I knew there had to be a better reason! But I am putting my foot down.. I am not fat. Katara is plenty curvy but she's just right thank you very much! Now, can I have my old style system back? Pretty please?
Enchant was tricky because it was replacing player expectations dating back to the game's pre-history. The new system requires wizards to hunt to enchant, just as ensorcell requires sorcerers to hunt. There are many older players who are impacted by this change, some badly, who built the way they play their wizard around the expectation that they can pop in and enchant something after a few days, and log out again. This was part of the problem, though, part of the reason the change was made (as I understand it) -- and certainly known from the beginning.
Getting enough essence for +25 doesn't take much hunting after the recent tweaks. It's really the stuff over +25 that take some dedication. "No hunting" won't get you to +25, though, or even +5. I'd still like to see a token something for the players who can't hunt, but the way it is now, pocket enchanters aren't going to survive. You still have the other crafting skills and spells (420, 517), alchemy, etc. that wizards have access to without hunting. I know it's not the same, but wizards still do have a lot of utility and services they can provide others, even without enchant.
Getting enough essence for +25 doesn't take much hunting after the recent tweaks. It's really the stuff over +25 that take some dedication. "No hunting" won't get you to +25, though, or even +5. I'd still like to see a token something for the players who can't hunt, but the way it is now, pocket enchanters aren't going to survive. You still have the other crafting skills and spells (420, 517), alchemy, etc. that wizards have access to without hunting. I know it's not the same, but wizards still do have a lot of utility and services they can provide others, even without enchant.
LeSs TeDiUm, MoRe FuN
Amirite?
I like the new enchanting system, but I like hunting. I understand why Katara is frustrated, and rightfully so; because if you don't like hunting but like enchanting things, it sucks.
Not so sure about any argument based in the generation of silver, a) because of the plummeting value of said currency after LITERAL DECADES of items and silver being injected into the game's economy, and b) because it doesn't solve the original problem: Wizards used to be able to enchant without hunting and now they can't.
I mean obviously there are a number of creative solutions that come to mind, but whether they are code-a-ble or implementable in any sort of reasonable time frame is the question.
-What about bringing INFUSION back for some sort of passive essence gain? Infusion parties and mana pools able to frequently generate 4x gear but capped as to not allow more than that.
-What about using ALCHEMY with difficult-to-gather ingredients or multiple steps (i.e. elemental attunement quest) to brew essence potions that could give you free essence, again, up to a hard cap?
-A free trickle of essence generation that does not involve hunting, but admittedly this would have to pretty low as to limit the creation of 5x + gear, which obviously is the intent of the changes in the first place.
-Something CRAZY. Like a toggle in which you won't gain mana on a mana pulse but instead convert it to essence at a .01 exchange rate.
-Sea Wizard, told you it was crazy
>A green-eyed white cat meows questioningly.
>A green-eyed white cat points at a spot just beyond your feet.
>A burst of flames erupts from the ground and soon a furious fire begins consuming anything combustible there.
Amirite?
I like the new enchanting system, but I like hunting. I understand why Katara is frustrated, and rightfully so; because if you don't like hunting but like enchanting things, it sucks.
Not so sure about any argument based in the generation of silver, a) because of the plummeting value of said currency after LITERAL DECADES of items and silver being injected into the game's economy, and b) because it doesn't solve the original problem: Wizards used to be able to enchant without hunting and now they can't.
I mean obviously there are a number of creative solutions that come to mind, but whether they are code-a-ble or implementable in any sort of reasonable time frame is the question.
-What about bringing INFUSION back for some sort of passive essence gain? Infusion parties and mana pools able to frequently generate 4x gear but capped as to not allow more than that.
-What about using ALCHEMY with difficult-to-gather ingredients or multiple steps (i.e. elemental attunement quest) to brew essence potions that could give you free essence, again, up to a hard cap?
-A free trickle of essence generation that does not involve hunting, but admittedly this would have to pretty low as to limit the creation of 5x + gear, which obviously is the intent of the changes in the first place.
-Something CRAZY. Like a toggle in which you won't gain mana on a mana pulse but instead convert it to essence at a .01 exchange rate.
-Sea Wizard, told you it was crazy
>A green-eyed white cat meows questioningly.
>A green-eyed white cat points at a spot just beyond your feet.
>A burst of flames erupts from the ground and soon a furious fire begins consuming anything combustible there.
Not that I think it would happen, but one possible solution is to just let the few number of wizards still clinging to the old system continue using it. Let it be done under the understanding that it's a legacy system that will no longer be updated, and support would be minimal should any problems be encountered. Maybe tweak it slightly so enchant speeds are not as quick to deal with the whole pressure mechanic krakii mentioned. I highly doubt it'd happen, but just an idea.
>> Not that I think it would happen, but one possible solution is to just let the few number of wizards still clinging to the old system continue using it. Let it be done under the understanding that it's a legacy system that will no longer be updated, and support would be minimal should any problems be encountered. Maybe tweak it slightly so enchant speeds are not as quick to deal with the whole pressure mechanic krakii mentioned. I highly doubt it'd happen, but just an idea.
Alternatively give a smaller amount of passive essence to wizard that don't hunt in a given week. e.g. If your essence earned for the week from hunting is less than 8k (picking a number out of the air) then you earn passive essence to bring your weekly accumulation to 8k. If you earned more than 8k for the week hunting then you don't gain any passive essence.
This would allow support for both styles of play but wouldn't require keeping two different systems around.
I don't think this idea will happen either btw but I'd prefer this over having two different enchanting systems in play long term.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
Alternatively give a smaller amount of passive essence to wizard that don't hunt in a given week. e.g. If your essence earned for the week from hunting is less than 8k (picking a number out of the air) then you earn passive essence to bring your weekly accumulation to 8k. If you earned more than 8k for the week hunting then you don't gain any passive essence.
This would allow support for both styles of play but wouldn't require keeping two different systems around.
I don't think this idea will happen either btw but I'd prefer this over having two different enchanting systems in play long term.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
>>Alternatively give a smaller amount of passive essence to wizard that don't hunt in a given week. e.g. If your essence earned for the week from hunting is less than 8k (picking a number out of the air) then you earn passive essence to bring your weekly accumulation to 8k. If you earned more than 8k for the week hunting then you don't gain any passive essence.
This'd be fine by me, as well.
This'd be fine by me, as well.
There has been discussion among dev that was mentioned on discord to allow enchant and ensorcel resources be earned via experience in general rather than kills. This would mean that sorcerers and wizards could earn ensorcel and enchanting resource via anything that earns experience and not just hunting. It's not definite, but a proposal.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
I wholeheartedly support all types of "profession points" be earned through experience gain and not exclusively through hunting, be it for enchanting, ensorcelling, or unlocking loresongs. The way that this is being approached for Monks' upcoming tattoo ability is a great improvement, IMO, and I sincerely hope that it is brought to other professions currently limited by hunting.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
Enchanting is way better in the new system. Can do so many items that you couldn't before.
Your now notAFK spellbot would still probably be the exact same thing except you log in to also do a quick enchanting cast every now and again. Sorry your pocket mage got nerfed. It has been great for people that main a mage though.
Good luck to you.
~Sabotage
Your now notAFK spellbot would still probably be the exact same thing except you log in to also do a quick enchanting cast every now and again. Sorry your pocket mage got nerfed. It has been great for people that main a mage though.
Good luck to you.
~Sabotage
<<Your now notAFK spellbot would still probably be the exact same thing except you log in to also do a quick enchanting cast every now and again. Sorry your pocket mage got nerfed. It has been great for people that main a mage though.>>
That was incredibly rude and uncalled for. You obviously don't know Katara or many other mages in the same position she is in if you're calling her a pocket mage.
That was incredibly rude and uncalled for. You obviously don't know Katara or many other mages in the same position she is in if you're calling her a pocket mage.
I did not call myself a pocket mage nor do I think ANYONE would consider me a 'pocket mage." I just have OTHER things to do that suck up my precious time and like I said; 1) this system is designed for power hunters who will have the ability to crank out an insane amount of enchants fairly quick and thus icing out the 'casual' player who at least used to enjoy to enchant now and then. 2) When I created my mage and through the 20+ years of consistent subscribed play, I never bargained for them completely altering the way a mage enchants to include a hunting component. I don't want to HAVE to hunt if I do not want to - that is my issue. This is a utility spell and connecting it to hunting is not what many a mage bargained for. We did out time - took me a long ass time btw - to get to a certain level and have the skill and proficiency and now bam I have to jump through hoops to do something I had done just fine for so long?
The main issue here is TIME. Who the hell has 16 hours a week to just HUNT?! I have work, family and a life but I still enjoy my game and the friends I have here and hosting events and rping and going to fests, etc. Except now, I can't even make the occasional enchant because I simply do not have the time to devote to hunting others do and that is the main reason I'm upset! I know people have/had pocket mages to simply enchant stuff but honestly, in all these years I still saw a hole in the market where more was needed. And now those folks, people like me who RP or do other stuff more, are out of luck because who the hell can devote so much TIME to hunting in order to get enough essence to do whatever the hell you do now with enchanting.
I know many mages who are upset but do not think speaking up will change a damn thing; I am not so hopeful but I want it on the record that I absolutely loathe this change and I find it punitive for no apparent reason. So get lost with that comment Sabotage.
Katara
Your right, I checked and it was someone else that posted that and not you. My bad.
Either way the changes are amazing. There isn't much I don't like about it. We're are finally getting good prices for our enchants and not having to hold onto someone's project/loved piece of equipment for literal months. It allows us to enchant more items than we could before. It was abused for to long by people who didn't play mages. People who just came logged in once every 2 weeks to cast at a weapon and logged back off. Sorry you got caught in with it, but it's a solid change.
This is the way they want these types of utility abilities to go, bards have their murderverses, sorcs have their necrojuice, monks will soon have their monk musk, and wizards have their tears. I think you have a much better shot at trying to convince them to earn something passively. Like a command if you haven't earned tears in 24 hrs you can INFUSE <charname> and earn say 500 tears. This would still put you way behind what you were getting but also wouldn't be a huge boon for pocket mages.
~Sabotage
Either way the changes are amazing. There isn't much I don't like about it. We're are finally getting good prices for our enchants and not having to hold onto someone's project/loved piece of equipment for literal months. It allows us to enchant more items than we could before. It was abused for to long by people who didn't play mages. People who just came logged in once every 2 weeks to cast at a weapon and logged back off. Sorry you got caught in with it, but it's a solid change.
This is the way they want these types of utility abilities to go, bards have their murderverses, sorcs have their necrojuice, monks will soon have their monk musk, and wizards have their tears. I think you have a much better shot at trying to convince them to earn something passively. Like a command if you haven't earned tears in 24 hrs you can INFUSE <charname> and earn say 500 tears. This would still put you way behind what you were getting but also wouldn't be a huge boon for pocket mages.
~Sabotage
>The main issue here is TIME. Who the hell has 16 hours a week to just HUNT?!
I agree with this. But, as casual players, we don't need to spend 16 hours doing anything. Since the announcement in 2019, I found just a couple hunts a week will let us do a +20 or even +25 enchant after 2-3 weeks (in a very general sense, disregarding training specifics, and maybe mana-bombing a little more than usual during each hunt). It's not like having unlimited minor projects, but it doesn't require us to turn our wizards into a full-game job. Most players maxing their essence every week are either well post-cap or serious power-hunters, or both. Why bother? Doing +30 or higher enchants might not be on our radar, but other players are filling that gap. And I've found we can still certainly do these enchants, with just a few hunts a week, but it's going to take about as many weeks as before to earn the essence to do them. This is part of the beauty of the design, and it was the same way with 735: Even the casual hunters can hit the high targets, but it's going to take them much longer to earn the essence. Power-hunter maxers can get substantially improved times over the old enchant while more casual players hit the old targets. For people that don't hunt at all, though, there's no path forward right now. Maybe this is something that will evolve as we move forward from the old system.
I agree with this. But, as casual players, we don't need to spend 16 hours doing anything. Since the announcement in 2019, I found just a couple hunts a week will let us do a +20 or even +25 enchant after 2-3 weeks (in a very general sense, disregarding training specifics, and maybe mana-bombing a little more than usual during each hunt). It's not like having unlimited minor projects, but it doesn't require us to turn our wizards into a full-game job. Most players maxing their essence every week are either well post-cap or serious power-hunters, or both. Why bother? Doing +30 or higher enchants might not be on our radar, but other players are filling that gap. And I've found we can still certainly do these enchants, with just a few hunts a week, but it's going to take about as many weeks as before to earn the essence to do them. This is part of the beauty of the design, and it was the same way with 735: Even the casual hunters can hit the high targets, but it's going to take them much longer to earn the essence. Power-hunter maxers can get substantially improved times over the old enchant while more casual players hit the old targets. For people that don't hunt at all, though, there's no path forward right now. Maybe this is something that will evolve as we move forward from the old system.
>as casual players, we don't need to spend 16 hours doing anything. Since the announcement in 2019, I found just a couple hunts a week will let us do a +20 or even +25 enchant after 2-3 weeks. Most players maxing their essence every week are either well post-cap or serious power-hunters, or both. Why bother? Doing +30 or higher enchants might not be on our radar, but other players are filling that gap. And I've found we can still certainly do these enchants, with just a few hunts a week, but it's going to take about as many weeks as before to earn the essence to do them.
Not everyone likes to hunt capped areas.
OTF - easy to get in, but the times I've passed through things can swarm up fast if it's crowded. Located in EN.
Nelemar - easy to get in if you have ample swimming skill (even at 60 ranks some times it takes 2-4 tries to swim out of a room and into the next), but like OTF, swarms and if you're not good with CC or lack ample AOE, can be a pain to hunt. Located in Teras.
Other capped hunting grounds take extra effort and time to get to, which adds to the overall time required for a hunt.
Lets say as a newer capped wizard based on current lores and how they impact everything and EMC, you'd probably have training as such:
EL:W = 0 ranks (let's face it, this lore blows compared to all the others)
EL:A = 30 ranks (nice to have a little boost to your Haste spells)
EL:E = 60 ranks (gives a second use of 950 per minute, plus you hit that 40 rank spot to get a second use of 550)
EL:F = 30 ranks (boost to 513's AS bonus)
EMC = 101 ranks (ideally 1x is good, more is better if you can do it before cap)
Mana total = 375
This info above means for essence gathering:
Essence pool size = 875
Off-node pulse = 25
On-node pulse = 51
I don't mind hunting Nelemar, but it's been 3-4 months since I had my newly capped wizard there. I tend to avoid the greater water elementals and sentries and I don't see magus very often. Everything else can be handled with ease if I'm paying attention. I rarely take time for the Water Elementals and Dissemblers (I don't see them very often on the floor I hunt) so that leaves 5 creatures I tend to see and kill. Average level of those 5 creatures = 97.6 (drop the .6, so level 97).
Average creature level is 97.
Average mana per kill = 17+ (either a cast of 917 or a knock down spell + a few bolts)
We'll say I can kill 7 creatures per pulse
On average I'd earn around 31 essence for the first kill and it goes down from there due to the roughly -30% of essence earned due to under hunting by 3 levels plus the -1% penalty for every 20 essence stored in your pool.
I would have to kill roughly 45 creatures to cap out my essence pool over the time of about 13 minutes. Plus running to and from the tower would be a few more minutes - so absolute best, 15 minutes for one hunt or maybe upwards of 20 minutes.
Maybe if I take 1 hunt a day to earn 875 essence and hunt 5 days a week = 4375
Around 1.5 hours of hunting a week.
For the heck of it, we'll round up to 4500 essence a week - nice round number.
Taking an item from 0 to +20 requires 19,000 essence.
4500 essence a week means 4.2 weeks to build up a 4x enchant.
Maybe I have a 4x (+20) item to 5x (+25) requires 11,000 essence.
4500 essence a week means 2.4 weeks to build the required essence.
Maybe I have a 6x (+30) item to 7x (+35) requires 108,000 essence.
4500 essence a week means 24 weeks to build the required essence.
Time to completely max your allowed store essence of 64k = 14.2 weeks
Old system, even if 14 days per temper on a 7x project = 98 days. Around 3 months for the work.
New system if you casually hunted for 4500 essence a week to do the same project = 6 months.
> This is part of the beauty of the design, and it was the same way with 735: Even the casual hunters can hit the high targets, but it's going to take them much longer to earn the essence.
People usually cry when 735 and 925 are compared, but if you want to comment on it....
735 you earn energy on every kill as long as you've hit the target.
925 you earn essence on a kill, but if you do less than 50% of damage you aren't guaranteed to earn essence.
735 you can continue to build your energy with every kill and never have to wait for pulses to earn energy it. You can blow through your weekly energy in a few hours if you know what you're doing.
925 you're limited by the amount of essence you store in your pool and how much is absorbed per pulse - at very best it would take just over 8 hours to hit your weekly essence cap. Sadly, only those that are very post-cap would have a chance at doing this. Normally for most folks it'll be 10-16 hours to cap your weekly essence.
Comparison of my level 66 sorcerer, his current hunting area and skill gives him 20 energy per kill. I can go through 1200 energy in about 30 minutes. Roughly 4 hours for him to cap out his weekly energy if I want to. Best my level 88 wizard can do is about 11 hours.
Call it as you want, but a casual hunter (a few hunts a week) is leaps and bounds behind what a wizard that caps their weekly essence can do.
Those that don't hunt, they're left out in the cold.
Forcing those that dislike hunting (which is rather tedious and boring to some) as the only method to build enchanting essence is kind of a crappy thing to do.
Just to touch on my last post, I've earned about 9000 essence in 6 hours, about 5 more hours to finish his weekly cap.
Eh, I'm tired of having to sit on a node and play the Lumnis game of timing pulses to get on-node returns to maximize my return and get through the dull and tedious process.
Eh, I'm tired of having to sit on a node and play the Lumnis game of timing pulses to get on-node returns to maximize my return and get through the dull and tedious process.
>> Eh, I'm tired of having to sit on a node and play the Lumnis game of timing pulses to get on-node returns to maximize my return and get through the dull and tedious process.
My recommendations:
1) Don't worry about being on-node. The essence will still absorb.
2) Make it a point to fill your pool at the end of the day and benefit from the off-line absorption.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
My recommendations:
1) Don't worry about being on-node. The essence will still absorb.
2) Make it a point to fill your pool at the end of the day and benefit from the off-line absorption.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
I still think Enchant and like spells should just be ripped out of the game, and only available via NPC merchants.
If we're going to keep it around, I'd like to see a system that:
- allows casual players (don't really care what your definition is) to enchant up to 5x - plain, unadorned, no special abilities, at least 2 x a month.
- allows power hunters (anyone consistently maximizing their weekly cap, selling Enchant, always hunting, hunting, hunting) to do what the old Enchant system allowed - in different words, no new Enchant capabilities / no beast mode.
- allow beast mode enchanters (anyone who is in between casual play and power hunt that changes up stats to get very difficult items) to get possibilities at more advanced scripts, weighting, flaring, etc.
- allow average wizards who do not enchant hardly at all to get extra percentage benefits when doing that rare enchant.
Mix and match however you wish, but the bell curve middle deserves the attention.
Doug
If we're going to keep it around, I'd like to see a system that:
- allows casual players (don't really care what your definition is) to enchant up to 5x - plain, unadorned, no special abilities, at least 2 x a month.
- allows power hunters (anyone consistently maximizing their weekly cap, selling Enchant, always hunting, hunting, hunting) to do what the old Enchant system allowed - in different words, no new Enchant capabilities / no beast mode.
- allow beast mode enchanters (anyone who is in between casual play and power hunt that changes up stats to get very difficult items) to get possibilities at more advanced scripts, weighting, flaring, etc.
- allow average wizards who do not enchant hardly at all to get extra percentage benefits when doing that rare enchant.
Mix and match however you wish, but the bell curve middle deserves the attention.
Doug
>2) Make it a point to fill your pool at the end of the day and benefit from the off-line absorption
So the idea is to prolong the process by waiting about 12 hours for that pool of stored essence to get fully absorbed instead of trudging through the next 5ish hours to hit the weekly cap?
I understand what you're suggesting, but to me that's just stupid to prolong the process.
It's been suggested before:
Hunt for 15 minutes. Fill essence pool (850 pool size for my wizard).
Log of for 12 hours to absorb off-line.
Hunt for 15 minutes. Fill my essence pool.
Log off for 12 to absorb off-line.
Repeat over 6.5 full days (if possible to do this every 12 hours).
30 minutes a day hunting this way = 11,050 essence. Leaving me short 4,950 for weekly cap.
49 essence on-node pulse means 102 more pulses to absorb the balance.
204 minutes means 3.4 hours...add in the time of nearly 6 full hunts of 15 minutes. That's another 1.5 hours.
Total of 3.4 + 1.5 = 4.9 more hours of sitting on a node to cap weekly essence.
So, what can take my wizard around 11-12 hours of hunting and hiding on a node to reach his weekly cap.....I could stretch it out over 7 full days in a total amount of in game time of about 8.5 hours. Less in-game time going this route, but that's only if you have no life, have constant access to the game to do this method and you don't miss a beat....
My point is, playing the pulse waiting game sucks. It sucked for the Lumnis contest and it sucks for building up essence regardless of what method you use to get there.
Which, in return, sucks that you have to hunt to earn essence otherwise no enchanting for you. The last iteration of enchanting was better - hunt and you could earn mana you could infuse to shorten temper times. Don't hunt, you could still enchant, but you got no reduced tempers.
Go back further and you could enchant without hunting, however, you were hindered by mana pools and had to do enchanting parties to infuse mana.
A spell that was functional in the past without being forced to hunt was available to all. Now if you don't hunt you don't get to use the spell, peroid.
Folks used to complain that wizards made bank off of enchanting, but that's not the case. I've made more off the new enchanting in 6 months than I've made of the old enchanting method over the past 15 years. I've probably only done a couple dozen major projects for others those last 15 years, but 4-15mil for a 5-7x prject over 1-3 months is nothing. Any one that can skin and find silvers/gems on creatures should be able to get 5-10mil a month with decent hunting.
New enchanting system I've made 100mil+ in about 6 months. I'm sure others have made a lot more since the new system started. I just recently converted to the new system about 6, maybe 7 months back on one of my wizards. The other is still on the old system. If I had both under the new system when it released I could probably have made 400-500mil easy.
So the idea is to prolong the process by waiting about 12 hours for that pool of stored essence to get fully absorbed instead of trudging through the next 5ish hours to hit the weekly cap?
I understand what you're suggesting, but to me that's just stupid to prolong the process.
It's been suggested before:
Hunt for 15 minutes. Fill essence pool (850 pool size for my wizard).
Log of for 12 hours to absorb off-line.
Hunt for 15 minutes. Fill my essence pool.
Log off for 12 to absorb off-line.
Repeat over 6.5 full days (if possible to do this every 12 hours).
30 minutes a day hunting this way = 11,050 essence. Leaving me short 4,950 for weekly cap.
49 essence on-node pulse means 102 more pulses to absorb the balance.
204 minutes means 3.4 hours...add in the time of nearly 6 full hunts of 15 minutes. That's another 1.5 hours.
Total of 3.4 + 1.5 = 4.9 more hours of sitting on a node to cap weekly essence.
So, what can take my wizard around 11-12 hours of hunting and hiding on a node to reach his weekly cap.....I could stretch it out over 7 full days in a total amount of in game time of about 8.5 hours. Less in-game time going this route, but that's only if you have no life, have constant access to the game to do this method and you don't miss a beat....
My point is, playing the pulse waiting game sucks. It sucked for the Lumnis contest and it sucks for building up essence regardless of what method you use to get there.
Which, in return, sucks that you have to hunt to earn essence otherwise no enchanting for you. The last iteration of enchanting was better - hunt and you could earn mana you could infuse to shorten temper times. Don't hunt, you could still enchant, but you got no reduced tempers.
Go back further and you could enchant without hunting, however, you were hindered by mana pools and had to do enchanting parties to infuse mana.
A spell that was functional in the past without being forced to hunt was available to all. Now if you don't hunt you don't get to use the spell, peroid.
Folks used to complain that wizards made bank off of enchanting, but that's not the case. I've made more off the new enchanting in 6 months than I've made of the old enchanting method over the past 15 years. I've probably only done a couple dozen major projects for others those last 15 years, but 4-15mil for a 5-7x prject over 1-3 months is nothing. Any one that can skin and find silvers/gems on creatures should be able to get 5-10mil a month with decent hunting.
New enchanting system I've made 100mil+ in about 6 months. I'm sure others have made a lot more since the new system started. I just recently converted to the new system about 6, maybe 7 months back on one of my wizards. The other is still on the old system. If I had both under the new system when it released I could probably have made 400-500mil easy.
I think the point was that you are typically not prolonging the process, but instead "taking advantage of the 10 hours that you are asleep" by letting the character's pool of essence absorb during your own, personal, meat-space down time.
I know that I certainly prefer to take advantage of my spell durations NOT counting down while my experience slowly absorbs from 'must rest' down to CAAB.
Stored essence would work exactly the same.
I know that I certainly prefer to take advantage of my spell durations NOT counting down while my experience slowly absorbs from 'must rest' down to CAAB.
Stored essence would work exactly the same.
>> I still think Enchant and like spells should just be ripped out of the game, and only available via NPC merchants.
Respectfully, I would much prefer to see more opportunities for the player merchant market to expand. I already feel that Gemstone lags in this area as compared to many MMORPGs. And while that might be an apples to oranges comparison in some regards, it is still an aspect of both systems that I enjoy.
>> If we're going to keep it around, I'd like to see a system that...
I don't particularly care for the current / new enchanting system. It creates a weekly grind and monopolizes my Gemstone play time such that I get to spend less time with other aspects of the game that I enjoy. Certainly I can choose not to participate in the new system or to scale back the amount of effort I put into it but improving project pieces on my wizard is one of the primary reasons that I play and enjoy this game. Another is offering a variety of goods via my playershop which the new enchanting system also impacts due to severely restricting my ability to keep 4x gear in stock.
I think I would favor a system that allowed for basic enchants to be accomplished via a time based requirement (e.g. your casual player suggestion) and then through additional effort a wizard could accomplish more 'challenging' projects (in terms of higher enchants, overcoming scripts / Ensorcell / flares / etc.) by spending points earned through this additional effort (this might be hunting). Where I see this as a win vs. the current system is that I feel it would provide more flexibility in how much effort would be required in any given week or month.
e.g. If I am taking a plane project from 4x-6x, then I simply need to let time pass and can do those. If I want to take an HCP armor from 4x-6x, then I would need to earn a certain number of 'wizard points' to overcome the HCP in that same time period.
Said differently and hopefully clearly, enchants would be time bound but the difficulty of the enchant that could be performed would be skill and wizard point bound. The wizard points wouldn't be tied to a weekly goal, you would just need to accumulate them prior to performing a 'difficult' enchant.
This completely removes the weekly grind component of the current system. At times I can choose to focus on other activities and when I need 'wizard points' I could choose to grind those out over the course of one week or multiple weeks as worked for my scheduled. Alternatively I could choose to just grind them out over a month and then slowly use them up over the coming year. Grinding more wizard points doesn't let me do more enchants, it just lets me do more challenging enchants when I do them.
My two cents on a system that I think would work for the majority of wizard players.
Incorporating your thought on the wizard that rarely enchants, maybe they could also earn 'wizard points' each time they forgo doing an enchant when they could as well (assuming a minimum level of activity in the game).
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
Respectfully, I would much prefer to see more opportunities for the player merchant market to expand. I already feel that Gemstone lags in this area as compared to many MMORPGs. And while that might be an apples to oranges comparison in some regards, it is still an aspect of both systems that I enjoy.
>> If we're going to keep it around, I'd like to see a system that...
I don't particularly care for the current / new enchanting system. It creates a weekly grind and monopolizes my Gemstone play time such that I get to spend less time with other aspects of the game that I enjoy. Certainly I can choose not to participate in the new system or to scale back the amount of effort I put into it but improving project pieces on my wizard is one of the primary reasons that I play and enjoy this game. Another is offering a variety of goods via my playershop which the new enchanting system also impacts due to severely restricting my ability to keep 4x gear in stock.
I think I would favor a system that allowed for basic enchants to be accomplished via a time based requirement (e.g. your casual player suggestion) and then through additional effort a wizard could accomplish more 'challenging' projects (in terms of higher enchants, overcoming scripts / Ensorcell / flares / etc.) by spending points earned through this additional effort (this might be hunting). Where I see this as a win vs. the current system is that I feel it would provide more flexibility in how much effort would be required in any given week or month.
e.g. If I am taking a plane project from 4x-6x, then I simply need to let time pass and can do those. If I want to take an HCP armor from 4x-6x, then I would need to earn a certain number of 'wizard points' to overcome the HCP in that same time period.
Said differently and hopefully clearly, enchants would be time bound but the difficulty of the enchant that could be performed would be skill and wizard point bound. The wizard points wouldn't be tied to a weekly goal, you would just need to accumulate them prior to performing a 'difficult' enchant.
This completely removes the weekly grind component of the current system. At times I can choose to focus on other activities and when I need 'wizard points' I could choose to grind those out over the course of one week or multiple weeks as worked for my scheduled. Alternatively I could choose to just grind them out over a month and then slowly use them up over the coming year. Grinding more wizard points doesn't let me do more enchants, it just lets me do more challenging enchants when I do them.
My two cents on a system that I think would work for the majority of wizard players.
Incorporating your thought on the wizard that rarely enchants, maybe they could also earn 'wizard points' each time they forgo doing an enchant when they could as well (assuming a minimum level of activity in the game).
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
Robert makes some fine points too!
The bottom line is that this new system is entirely too time consuming. I want to point out that not ever player is a HS or college kid or has gobs of time to just grind away at something so repetitive. Please, PLEASE consider some kind of alternative, the old system, a modified system hybrid.. something that allows more freedom of gameplay if you still want to enchant!
Katara
Robert's suggestion of more difficult enchants being tied to additional effort, with less difficult enchants being tied to time is what I'm primarily hoping for.
My wizard was enchanting stuff just for my other characters, not trying to make money, and only taking plain, unzested, unscripted, un-everything, pieces to 7x. It was easy, didn't take any more effort than just 'waiting' for the piece to temper, and spending 5-10 minutes every week-ish to cast.
I'd be perfectly fine having to wait even upwards of a month to enchant a plain item +1, I'd even go so far as to make it so that any item I enchant with 'free' wiz-tears being unsalable, usable only by my own people, etc.. I don't know how that could be implemented, maybe some sort of mark/register flag so that it can't be given/exchanged with any character on accounts not specified by the enchanting wizard?
I don't care, personally, to make (direct) money off of 925. I just want to make my own characters better. I know, I'm in the minority, probably, with this, since 925 is one of the main sources of cash flow for wizards. I just hate the idea that any sort of 'service' that I'm just performing for my own characters is locked behind a hunting-wall... it's just ridiculous. (I'm the same with ensorcell, which is why none of my characters have any ensorcelled items. I can't afford it, and I don't have my own sorcerer to do it for me.)
~Cylnthia Kythnis Ardenai
~Paragon of Kuon
~Rose Guardian, House Sylvanfair
My wizard was enchanting stuff just for my other characters, not trying to make money, and only taking plain, unzested, unscripted, un-everything, pieces to 7x. It was easy, didn't take any more effort than just 'waiting' for the piece to temper, and spending 5-10 minutes every week-ish to cast.
I'd be perfectly fine having to wait even upwards of a month to enchant a plain item +1, I'd even go so far as to make it so that any item I enchant with 'free' wiz-tears being unsalable, usable only by my own people, etc.. I don't know how that could be implemented, maybe some sort of mark/register flag so that it can't be given/exchanged with any character on accounts not specified by the enchanting wizard?
I don't care, personally, to make (direct) money off of 925. I just want to make my own characters better. I know, I'm in the minority, probably, with this, since 925 is one of the main sources of cash flow for wizards. I just hate the idea that any sort of 'service' that I'm just performing for my own characters is locked behind a hunting-wall... it's just ridiculous. (I'm the same with ensorcell, which is why none of my characters have any ensorcelled items. I can't afford it, and I don't have my own sorcerer to do it for me.)
~Cylnthia Kythnis Ardenai
~Paragon of Kuon
~Rose Guardian, House Sylvanfair
