Can you say a bit about the balance considerations between cyclics and non-cyclics? How does Phoenix's Pyre compare to a non-cyclic TM spell, for example?

Overall, I'm very happy with the way this looks. I'm a little sad we no longer have a cyclic combat augmentation (e.g. current Harmony). Of course, we're gaining Rage + Harmony + DEMA for simultaneously buffing and debuffing everything important.

I also notice we don't have any "Spirit vs" or "vs Reflex" effects. Was this a deliberate omission or just how things worked out? If the latter, I think Abandoned Heart might fit better as Spirit than Charm.

>Hodierna's Lilt
>Basic Cyclic Augmentation. Restores Vitality, Fatigue, Spirit in area. No real change.

Spirit restoration is a change (back to 1.0), one that I'm very happy to see. Is it losing the concentration restoration?

>Call of the Siren

Please reconsider the spawn blocking. It's not an effect people want very often, and we already have it elsewhere in our spellbook (Sanctuary). I'd rather it be removed so that it doesn't affect the slot cost. It would also be nice to be able to sing Sire in a way that encourages spawn but doesn't hit random PCs wandering by.

>Resonance

Looks nice. If it could be made to work with Throwing Blades, that would be awesome.

>Phoenix's Pyre

Single target or area? I assume it pulses with every cycle. Does that make it count as a multi-shot spell, with all that that entails?

Will the damaging effect be full strength, instead of the weak effect it is now? (I know you said all effects are full strength, but I wasn't sure if that was only talking about buff effects.)

>Redeemer's Pride

Will this interfere with the caster's spells the way Aether Cloak and Shear will? Same question for Glythtide's Joy.

>Aether Wolves

This looks really cool.

> Chorus of Madmen

Since it's going to use TM, will it lose the damage cap?

Gonna go through spell by spell and comment :)

>>Ballads and Romances:

>>Hodierna's Lilt
>>Basic Cyclic Augmentation. Restores Vitality, Fatigue, Spirit in area. No real change.

Good to see the Spirit aspect returning! When I saw spirit attacks were coming back I really hoped this would be the case.

>>Faenella's Grace
>>Introductory Cyclic Augmentation. Improves teaching/scholar and slightly improves speed of classes in area. No real change.

Sounds good.

>>Naming of Tears
>>Advanced Warding. Damage barrier, always on caster, pulses to groupmates.

I have a question about the "pulses to groupmates" spells. I haven't had much experience with the usual casting guilds, so is this similar to things they do now? If I cast NoT on myself and someone joins me, every so often it'll pulse to them?

>>Redeemer's Pride
>>Advanced Warding. SvS protection vs Fear attacks and for Will defense. Always on caster, pulses to groupmates. Any hit on groupmates lessens the entire barrier.

Out of curiosity, what all does Fear attacks cover at this point?


>>Damaris' Lullaby
>>Advanced Cyclic Debilitation.Charm vs Will. Debuffs agility, strength, reflex. Causes opponents to fall over / unconscious. No real change.

Looks good, can't wait to use this enchante without stringed instruments!

>>Sanctuary
>>Esoteric Cyclic Utility. Strong Ward against Location, prevents Hiding / Invisibility, prevents generic creature entry.

Nice addition with the hiding/invisibility aspect! I can see actually using this now!


>>Albreda's Balm
>>Basic Cyclic Utility / Debilitation. Charm vs Will to start the enchante and cause a sphere of calm.

Looks good.

>>Call of the Siren
>>Esoteric Cyclic Utility. Attempts to either block the spawning of creatures or attract more creatures. No change.

Still love this enchante!


>>Allegros and Capriccios:

>>Drums of the Snake
>>Advanced Augmentation. Agility + Disarm/Lock bonus. Always on caster, pulses to groupmates.

Very glad to see this switch to castable!

>>Desert's Maelstrom
>>Esoteric Cyclic Debilitation. Magic vs Fortitude. Garbage collection, penalizes TM / offense / defense. Pulsing improved balance of caster friends.

Is the penalty against the ranged weapon usage of the Bard still included in this?


>>Rage of the Clans
>>Advanced Augmentation. Melee / Ranged Accuracy boost. Always on caster, pulses to groupmates.

Glad to see this castable!

>>Caress of the Sun
>>Introductory Cyclic Utility. 0-slot spell that provides protection from weather to your instruments.

Sweet, I was planning on dumping this in the spell wipe, glad to see it's going to be a freebie.

>>Resonance
>>Advanced Augmentation. Improves weapon you cast it on and brings it back into caster's hand anytime dropped.

This sounds awesome! Will the "Must meet X weapon requirement" thing be going away? Also, will this return thrown weapons immediately, or is it purely dropped weapons?

>>Phoenix's Pyre
>>Advanced Cyclic TM. Fire direct damage, ignite naphtha, fatigue damage.

Glad the naphtha lighting is coming back. Is there going to be any improvement in the damage output? As it is now, the damage potential it has would be what I would consider equal to an introductory level spell.

>>Harmony
>>Esoteric Augmentation. Reflex, Parry, Evasion boost. Personal only.

Is there going to be a correlating spell similar to singing Harmony loudly now? This seems to be a castable quiet version, which is awesome, I'm just not seeing anything for offense (the new Rage of the Clans is offense to-hit, but current loud Harmony seems like more than just that)

>>Breath of Storms
>>Basic Targeted. Direct damage.

Any details on how this one will work?

>>Merelew's Legacy
>>Basic Cyclic Augmentation / Utility. Area Athletics + Underwater Breath

What is "Area Athletics?"

>>Concertos and Sonatas:

>>Nexus
>>Esoteric Cyclic Augmentation. Area Global Mana booster.

Good to go.

>>Eye of Kertigen
>>Advanced Utility. Searches area with improved perception for a short time. Lights up area around Bard.

Very glad to see this is going to be castable! I always liked Eye, but it just never made sense to use as an enchante.

>>Demrris' Resolve
>>Advanced Debilitation. Mind vs Will. AoE Stun and Knockdown.

Rockin.

>>Glythtide's Joy
>>Esoteric Cyclic Warding. Area interference with Targeted Magic.

As it stands now, Joy doesn't mess up the bards TM efforts (as far as I know.) I know that other guilds warding spells that mess up TM are cutting both ways, will this be the same? I'm assuming so, figured I'd ask.

>>Aether Wolves
>>Introductory Cyclic Debilitation. Magic vs Fortitude Area Immobilization + damage to attunement stat (not skill).

Does this mean it'll drain peoples mana attunement? I'm not sure what "attunement stat" means exactly. Seems interesting though.

>>Blessing of the Fae
>>Esoteric Cyclic Augmentation. Area Attunement booster + Attunement regeneration

...uh oh... RIP Nagas. RIP GM's when Terra sees this!

>>Aura of Tongues
>>Introductory Cyclic Utility. Allows the caster to understand other languages. Higher potency allows group members to share the benefit.

Any chance that this could become a perma-loop cyclic spell? Or are all cyclic spells going to go on until you actively stop them now?

>>Misdirection
>>Advanced Augmentation / Debilitation. Stealth bonus to caster, Charm vs Will area perception debuff to viewers at time of cast.

Awesome!!

>>Nocturnes and Requiems:


>>Chorus of Madmen
>>Esoteric Cyclic Debilitation / Targeted. Drives the listeners insane, causing uncontrollable random effects, and causes them to attack themselves.

Will the Pink Dragon be returning? :D I haven't used Madmen on others in a while, but last I heard the damage it dealt from self attacks was pretty much abrasions. Has that/will that change?

>>Eillie's Cry
>>Introductory Utility. Allows a bard to shout a message to the nearby area while alive. Can also be utilized rarely when dead.

Well, it's better than it used to be. This could actually be pretty useful in an invasion or something depending on the range. "MADIGAN SAYS FORM UP AT THE BANK, MOVE IT!"

>>Abandoned Heart
>>Esoteric Cyclic Debilitation. Area effect Charm vs Fortitude. Debuffs Discipline, Stamina, Strength. Drains fatigue and spirit. Increases the effect of bleeding wounds.

Spirit attack! Woo! Will this regain the ability to drain fatigue past the 50% point? That change always bugged me, I'm putting in the mana and effort to drain your fatigue yet it just stops at 50%.


Overall comments: Looks like a lot of great changes. My biggest concern right now is that we still seem pretty light on TM as our only TM effects are from Madmen, Pyre and Breath, two of which are cyclical. While madmen is Esoteric, I'm assuming that's more because the Debilitation is so good. Pyre is Advanced, but IDK if that necessarily will mean a damage improvement. Breath of Storms is basic, but it's impossible to really judge its power without trying it. It's clear that TM isn't our primary sphere of influence, so I'm not surprised, just wondering where those might be placed power-wise.

By the look of it, our strong points are augmentation and debilitation. I can't wait to finally be able to buff up with multiple spells! Debilitation I'm less excited for mainly because I'm used to AoE debilitation being useful for PvE and useless for PvP, but I'm looking forward to playing with things and relearning how to play a bard.

I was really hoping we'd see a few entirely new spells, but the ever anticipated Breath of Storms is as close as we're getting it seems. I guess we'll have to see how it goes with the whole slot system thing, I just wanted more new spells so there's a point to circling past 74 or whichever circle it is where we've topped out.


-=Issus=-

> Out of curiosity, what all does Fear attacks cover at this point?

It will include Barbarian roars. Fear is one of the two basic non-magic (non-damaging) attack forms. The other is Power (see: warstomp).

> What is "Area Athletics?"

Athletics is the combination of Swimming and Climbing. So, area effect boost to Athletics skills.

> Does this mean it'll drain peoples mana attunement? I'm not sure what "attunement stat" means exactly. Seems interesting though.

Attunement is a new skill combining Harness and PP. So maybe this means it debuffs whatever stat goes along with that skill?

>Pyre is Advanced, but IDK if that necessarily will mean a damage improvement.

Intro/Basic/Advanced/Esoteric don't change the strength of the spell. There is a standardized strength that everything uses.

> Most likely it drains attunement as if you'd casted a spell.

That makes more sense.

Very, very good list. I am excited!


>>Hodierna's Lilt
>>Basic Cyclic Augmentation. Restores Vitality, Fatigue, Spirit in area. No real change.

To chime in with others I love Spirit healing coming back, but am curious if this is at the loss of concentration restoration.

>>Faenella's Grace
>>Introductory Cyclic Augmentation. Improves teaching/scholar and slightly improves speed of classes in area. No real change.

Will this lose the legacy effect of boosting Arcane skill only for the purpose of reading spell scrolls?

>>Resonance
>>Advanced Augmentation. Improves weapon you cast it on and brings it back into caster's hand anytime dropped.

What do you mean by 'improves weapon'? Does it improve our skill with that weapon skill? Or does it actually enhance the weapon itself like the Paladin spell Rutilor's Edge?

>>Nexus
>>Esoteric Cyclic Augmentation. Area Global Mana booster.

Is Nexus losing it's Primary Magic skill boosting effect?

>>Eillie's Cry
>>Introductory Utility. Allows a bard to shout a message to the nearby area while alive. Can also be utilized rarely when dead.

What does 'utilized rarely' actually mean? Will there be a skill check? Or just a timer on reuse? Also will we still get the notice of how many, if any, Bards in the area hear the cry for help?

General Thoughts:
-Could either Nexus or Blessings of the Fae be made into a castable spell? Having two spells that boost mana is great, but having both as cyclic spells limits the use a Bard can get out of using them.
-I noticed only two stat boosts amongst all of our spells. I thought guilds were going to be able to boost three stats? Or is it two because of being magic secondary?
-Will we be able to cast some of our castable spells on others? Or will they have to remain in our group to get any effects from our spells?


I think I ended up posting more than I wanted, but I am really excited about reading this list. I havn't been this jazzed about Bard magic since we left Magic 1.0!

>>Faenella's Grace
>>Introductory Cyclic Augmentation. Improves teaching/scholar and slightly improves speed of classes in area. No real change.

>Will this lose the legacy effect of boosting Arcane skill only for the purpose of reading spell scrolls?

No. I actually didn't realize it was there so it didn't make it into the list :P

>>Nexus
>>Esoteric Cyclic Augmentation. Area Global Mana booster.

>Is Nexus losing it's Primary Magic skill boosting effect?

Probably the same deal.

>-Could either Nexus or Blessings of the Fae be made into a castable spell? Having two spells that boost mana is great, but having both as cyclic spells limits the use a Bard can get out of using them.

Unlikely, as the desire is for Bards to shine in group situations still.

>-I noticed only two stat boosts amongst all of our spells. I thought guilds were going to be able to boost three stats? Or is it two because of being magic secondary?

All guilds have three stats in their sphere. It is not guaranteed they will actually start with spells that boost said stats. This is more about conversion and less about 'a lot of new spells'.

>>>Eillie's Cry
>>Introductory Utility. Allows a bard to shout a message to the nearby area while alive. Can also be utilized rarely when dead.

>What does 'utilized rarely' actually mean? Will there be a skill check? Or just a timer on reuse? Also will we still get the notice of how many, if any, Bards in the area hear the cry for help?

It means you can only do it every X time period to avoid you spamming everyone around you while you're dead.

>Also will we still get the notice of how many, if any, Bards in the area hear the cry for help?

Um.. if you really want? It won't be limited to Bards hearing you though.

>-Will we be able to cast some of our castable spells on others?

They will all be personal only in this list.

-Z

Thanks for all the quick replies! I'm really glad to be having all this discussion going into a huge change for Bards (and DR as a whole).

If we happen to notice other random spell effects that we currently have but that aren't in your list, should we post them? Bardic magic is currently so convoluted I'd be surprised if even all the elder Bards know all of the possible effects to all our songs.

>>>Also will we still get the notice of how many, if any, Bards in the area hear the cry for help?
>>Um.. if you really want? It won't be limited to Bards hearing you though.

Wow! It's always been just other Bards hearing in the past so I assumed! Since everyone will be hearing, will we get a notice of how many heard our cry for help, or no one as the case my be? Also, is there any word on this spell working in currently buggy areas such as the Viper area near Stone Clan?

I normally write super long analytical posts and stuff, but I see no real need to here. I am totally speechless at how awesome this list looks.

I just wanted to give an incredibly huge THANK YOU for such a well thought out array of spells. I could not be happier and I cannot think of a point in time where I have been happier to be a Bard.

I cannot wait to play with these bad boys in the midst of new combat and new lore.

P.S. if you could just make the TM damage messaging stuff look/sound cool that would be super awesome and very much appreciated.

<3

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

> I just wanted to give an incredibly huge THANK YOU for such a well thought out array of spells. I could not be happier and I cannot think of a point in time where I have been happier to be a Bard.

Let me chime in on this. Despite any nitpicky comments I'm giving, I am very excited about this. Thank you Z for posting this.

>>What do you mean by 'improves weapon'? Does it improve our skill with that weapon skill? Or does it actually enhance the weapon itself like the Paladin spell Rutilor's Edge?

Good question. Also, just because this was a thing with the old version: If this is a rank boost to the weapon skill, please make it so weapons of multiple types get a boost for both type (LE/LT, for example). If it improves the stats of the weapon, that won't be an issue!

-=Issus=-

>>
Abandoned Heart
Esoteric Cyclic Debilitation. Area effect Charm vs Fortitude. Debuffs Discipline, Stamina, Strength. Drains fatigue and spirit.
<<

Question, as this enchante drains spirit will it also have a TM check for spirit death?

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

Oh, a few other questions about Bard magic in general with this change. How will Bards interact with other Bard's songs with this change? Currently two Bards can have their songs class when performing, causing one or both to loose their spells. Can this go away? Also if another Bard is currently performing a song and a second Bard tries to start that same song they get the message about 'helping' the first Bard. (I don't think it actually does help, but that's just me). Will two Bards be able to perform the same cyclic spell? Thanks again!

> any way of adding a swimming boost to merelew's

That's what it does. Athletics is the merger of climbing and swimming.

While I don't play a bard, I try to look at bigger pictures when it comes to DR development. I want to compliment the GMs for building a great developmental theme around Bard Magic 3.0. The buffs and group mechanics behind their magical abilities not only help to make playing a bard desirable, it fills a hole that DR was missing.

Great job you all. Thanks.

Nikpack

>>...any chance in filling in some of the gaps? Particularly warding, which lists no introductory or basic enchantes/spells.

This just means there won't be any exceptionally easy Warding spells/enchantes right out the gate. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as there will be Anagolous Warding spells which are introductoary/basic IIRC.

Also this is basically just a conversion(freaking awesome conversion) of our pre-existing stuff. I wouldn't worry too much about what we don't have now, as there is much room for expansion in the future :)

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

>>Faenella's Grace
I feel like this cyclic needs something else behind it to make it really awesome. Perhaps a learning stat boost or something similar at the high end (mana wise)?

I doubt this really needs anything else, actually. It boosts the teacher's Teaching, the student's Scholarship, and increases the speed of classes (I assume how fast the class pulses). All of that adds up to a significant boost to a classroom, which is the song's niche. Adding an extra Int modifier might make it useful in more situations, but I don't see a pressing need for it.

Killing you softly with his song,
- Stormsinger Shavay

---

Faerie tales do not tell children that dragons exist. Children already know dragons exist. Faerie tales tell children that dragons can be killed.
- G.K. Chesterton

I really like the division of the spells as suggested and am really loving the self only pulsing to group members aspect.

Rather than all of our spells being AOE and applying effects to the whole room I'm glad to see this distinction between our truly AOE spells and the ones which are primarily self only, but have the functionality to pulse towards close group members. I think that is a very important division point which was necessary in order to make Bards more than just party companions.

Rather than QUIET/LOUD mechanics I'm assuming our AOE spells will adopt the traditional AOE cast mechanics of ENGAGED/AREA/CREATURE?

If someone could please refresh my memory, but Introductory/Basic/Advanced/Esoteric level descriptions only really have a hand in determining functionality and spell difficulty, yes?

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

<<Aether Wolves>>
<<Introductory Cyclic Debilitation. Magic vs Fortitude Area Immobilization + damage to attunement stat (not skill).>>

Unless the time between pulses is extremely long (on the order of minutes) and the immobilization is very short (a small handful of seconds), this kinda looks like an Immobilizer of indefinite duration. That would be so obnoxious on the receiving end that I think even critters would come complaining about it...how will this be resolved?

Thanks,
-Death's Nemesis Karthor

<<Probably by Bards cheering that they have something that other people fear / are jealous of?

I <3 you Z.

Okay. Now that I've read the list, I have a few comments and analysis for y'all.

Comments:

1. Omg... RAGE + TEAR + EYE + RESO + HARM + DRUM + MISD + PRIDE + Your choice of Cyclic + AoE stun/knockdown as needed without losing buffs = OMG! I just crapped my pants! Thank you!
2. No more comments. The above is enough to describe my overall joy. Bards now have a decent set of core buffs and we can modify the flavour of our combat by utilising the cyclic spell of our choice. I am happy.

Analysis:
In no particular order, and discounting things that have shifted from one enchante to another or exist in a modified form the following is a list of things we gained and lost.
I have bolded the stuff in the 'Things We Lose' column that I would really like to see kept in some form. The ones I haven't bolded are either meh abilities or ones that have been replaced in some other acceptable to me format.

Things we gain*	*Things we lose
Spririt Regen	Concentration Regen (LILT)
Barrier vs. Will	First Aid Bonus (LILT)
Stealth Prevention	Tending RT reduction (LILT)
TM/offence/defence debuff	Arcana boost for scrolls (FAE)
melee/ranged accuracy	(Multi Opponent boost (PRIDE)
reflex boost (yay!)	Anti*-*Retreat*/*Leave (SIRE)
weapon stat improvement	Weapon skill boost (RESO/RAGE)
a practical weapon bond	Balance debuff (DEMA)
holy/lunar/life/arcane mana booster	barrier vs. water magic (CARE)
swimming boost (as part of athletics)	Severe weather protection(CARE)
AoE stun	Dropping cursed items (RESO)
attunement damage	General offence/defence boost (HARM)
short-distance communication	Barrier vs. Fire magic (MERE)
STR/STA debuff	Snuffing of fires? Not sure about this one...(MERE)
spirit damage	Primary Magic boost (NEXUS)
	Auto point (EYE)
	Ability to force a retreat (AEWO)
	Lockpicking*/*Disarming RT reduction (DRUM)
	Auto*-*rise from Prone (HARM)

-Evran