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While overhauling the perception spellbook I made a mental note to revisit how Seer's Sense works on others now. If nothing else I really need to make a pass over it to make sure all the mechanics are still working, some of them might still be broken from the 3.0 conversion.
But this also gave me an idea - I'd kind of like to build a metaspell follow up to Seer's Sense that bumps up casting it on others. If you look at the initial design of the spell it was intended that the primary function was casting it on others and, oh yeah, it can give an evasion boost. We all know how that ended up.
So what I'm wondering do people use the link on others at all? If you do, what do you use it for?
What sort of things would you like to see the link do? Other information it could share (Remote Predict Analyze or sense teleologic corruption are two ideas)?
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
<<So what I'm wondering do people use the link on others at all? If you do, what do you use it for?
I almost never use the link. The only times I do for actual practical purpose are when I want to take a quick shortcut back to someone using Contingency, but I don't think I even have that spell at the moment. I typically don't use it for combat safety, since I often travel the Astral Plane to get to where I hunt from where I hang out, and people jolted back across the realms is a good way to lose a weapon or something. I think I forgot it a while back to get another spell I didn't want to wait for and can't recall if I've re-chosen it again yet or not. That shows how often I use it.
<<What sort of things would you like to see the link do?
I do like the concept of the mental link. One suggestion I might have is that Moon Mages suck at AoE spells, and some of our spells are even self only. Perhaps this link could allow a sort of limited AoE with a long distance component for certain augmentation or utility spells in much the same way that the link propagates thoughtcasts. A person you have a Seer's Sense link with would receive any mental themed buffs that you receive wherever they happen to be. The potency could be modified down by range based on your skill as well. You could even gate how many effects could propagate based on skill, similar to how clerics are gated with how many spells they can store in Osrel Meraud. Good candidates for spells to propagate through the link would be Distant Gaze (lets them see what you see and they can release gaze if they so choose), Psychic Shield, Artificer's Eye, Machinist's Touch, Clear Vision, Seer's Sense (how meta would that be lol), and Thoughtcast.
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I almost never use the link. The only times I do for actual practical purpose are when I want to take a quick shortcut back to someone using Contingency, but I don't think I even have that spell at the moment. I typically don't use it for combat safety, since I often travel the Astral Plane to get to where I hunt from where I hang out, and people jolted back across the realms is a good way to lose a weapon or something. I think I forgot it a while back to get another spell I didn't want to wait for and can't recall if I've re-chosen it again yet or not. That shows how often I use it.
<<What sort of things would you like to see the link do?
I do like the concept of the mental link. One suggestion I might have is that Moon Mages suck at AoE spells, and some of our spells are even self only. Perhaps this link could allow a sort of limited AoE with a long distance component for certain augmentation or utility spells in much the same way that the link propagates thoughtcasts. A person you have a Seer's Sense link with would receive any mental themed buffs that you receive wherever they happen to be. The potency could be modified down by range based on your skill as well. You could even gate how many effects could propagate based on skill, similar to how clerics are gated with how many spells they can store in Osrel Meraud. Good candidates for spells to propagate through the link would be Distant Gaze (lets them see what you see and they can release gaze if they so choose), Psychic Shield, Artificer's Eye, Machinist's Touch, Clear Vision, Seer's Sense (how meta would that be lol), and Thoughtcast.
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I also never use Seer's sense on others because really there's no reason to currently, which i'm sure you've figured or you wouldn't have posted such.
I do agree with the distant gaze like properties mentioned, more of a toggled shadewatch mirror though between the two linked. It would be useful for at least one reason that I would use it for. I'm not sure about the effects of CV or the like, but I do think that having spells like PSY shield that are able to fortify the linked as well as the MM itself would seem to be a nice fit for the spell, though its easy enough to just cast PSY on somebody else. Maybe a shared MM only Ward for when the barrier rewrite comes out? Also maybe a 1 skill mental stat boost. I wouldn't mind paying a few slots for a few different things.
Just some ideas.
I do agree with the distant gaze like properties mentioned, more of a toggled shadewatch mirror though between the two linked. It would be useful for at least one reason that I would use it for. I'm not sure about the effects of CV or the like, but I do think that having spells like PSY shield that are able to fortify the linked as well as the MM itself would seem to be a nice fit for the spell, though its easy enough to just cast PSY on somebody else. Maybe a shared MM only Ward for when the barrier rewrite comes out? Also maybe a 1 skill mental stat boost. I wouldn't mind paying a few slots for a few different things.
Just some ideas.
>So what I'm wondering do people use the link on others at all? If you do, what do you use it for?
When there's only 1 moon in the sky and I want to travel between 3 points quickly while leaving my beam in place elsewhere I'll very rarely cast seer's sense on someone using contingency to turn them into a virtual moonbeam. That's about the only time i cast contingency as well. Usually it's faster and more convenient to just use the 100th circle ability and athletics.
99% of my seer's casts are for +evasion.
Being able to remotely cast Seer's Sense on a distant target would be nice.
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When there's only 1 moon in the sky and I want to travel between 3 points quickly while leaving my beam in place elsewhere I'll very rarely cast seer's sense on someone using contingency to turn them into a virtual moonbeam. That's about the only time i cast contingency as well. Usually it's faster and more convenient to just use the 100th circle ability and athletics.
99% of my seer's casts are for +evasion.
Being able to remotely cast Seer's Sense on a distant target would be nice.
Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>> So what I'm wondering do people use the link on others at all? If you do, what do you use it for?
More for RP reasons then anything. From a mechanical point of view, sometimes to get that extra zone for Riftal Summons.
>> What sort of things would you like to see the link do? Other information it could share (Remote Predict Analyze or sense teleologic corruption are two ideas)?
Share an active prediction from/on yourself with the link target? Greatly increase the length for Thoughtcast and associated "think to" timers?
Also brings to question why the target is unable to detect the spell on them? I'd imagine if you've been linked, you should be able to ready the magical signature, too? Also if the game XML can be updated so it can show up in the different FE spell windows like "Seer's Sense linked $charname".
ABSOLON >>I do like the concept of the mental link.
To follow on this - Linked partner is unaffected by Mind Shout?
More for RP reasons then anything. From a mechanical point of view, sometimes to get that extra zone for Riftal Summons.
>> What sort of things would you like to see the link do? Other information it could share (Remote Predict Analyze or sense teleologic corruption are two ideas)?
Share an active prediction from/on yourself with the link target? Greatly increase the length for Thoughtcast and associated "think to" timers?
Also brings to question why the target is unable to detect the spell on them? I'd imagine if you've been linked, you should be able to ready the magical signature, too? Also if the game XML can be updated so it can show up in the different FE spell windows like "Seer's Sense linked $charname".
ABSOLON >>I do like the concept of the mental link.
To follow on this - Linked partner is unaffected by Mind Shout?
>>Also brings to question why the target is unable to detect the spell on them? I'd imagine if you've been linked, you should be able to ready the magical signature, too? Also if the game XML can be updated so it can show up in the different FE spell windows like "Seer's Sense linked $charname".
For the same reason it's not dispellable. Mechanically there is no spell to track. This is due to how the spell was written many moons ago, beyond the initial cast the magic system is in no way involved with tracking or maintaining the link.
Does that make sense in the Lore? Not particularly.
Also I'm going to redirect a bit. Almost every proposal here is a big feature. Lots of coding, complex stuff. This is a perception spell and I'm more looking for what sort of information you could gain through the link. It's like putting someone under surveillance, not a mind merge deal (That'd be in a totally different Moon Mage spellbook).
I'm not opposed to additional interactions with other Moon Mage spells that - but if you look at what it does now it basically makes spells that involve knowing where someone is at a distance easier because you have a general idea where to start looking. It's not going to let you share spells between the two of you.
Sharing Distant Gaze through it where you see through the target's eyes? That's a perception effect (But also extremely redundant with things Moon Mages can already do so unlikely to happen).
>>Being able to remotely cast Seer's Sense on a distant target would be nice.
I'd need to think about this one some more. My gut says "no" but without the old style of involuntary RS it might be okay.
>>And to add more, along the lines of it being "Seer's Sense"... Those linked receive game wide visions as they're sent to Moon Mages? Part of sharing a link.
An interesting idea - I'm not certain it fits, but interesting. Knowing how those mechanics work it's likely nonviable (They're shared with the same mechanics we use to make announcements to a specific class, for example if there's an uncoming OOC meeting, so I don't know how you'd share one without sharing the other.) but still an interesting idea.
Another thought that comes to mind is something I wanted for it as a player which was more active monitoring. Being able to sense if they're stunned or otherwise in trouble in combat is nifty but you only know about this if you happen to perceive at that exact moment. How useful that would be in practice is open to question.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
For the same reason it's not dispellable. Mechanically there is no spell to track. This is due to how the spell was written many moons ago, beyond the initial cast the magic system is in no way involved with tracking or maintaining the link.
Does that make sense in the Lore? Not particularly.
Also I'm going to redirect a bit. Almost every proposal here is a big feature. Lots of coding, complex stuff. This is a perception spell and I'm more looking for what sort of information you could gain through the link. It's like putting someone under surveillance, not a mind merge deal (That'd be in a totally different Moon Mage spellbook).
I'm not opposed to additional interactions with other Moon Mage spells that - but if you look at what it does now it basically makes spells that involve knowing where someone is at a distance easier because you have a general idea where to start looking. It's not going to let you share spells between the two of you.
Sharing Distant Gaze through it where you see through the target's eyes? That's a perception effect (But also extremely redundant with things Moon Mages can already do so unlikely to happen).
>>Being able to remotely cast Seer's Sense on a distant target would be nice.
I'd need to think about this one some more. My gut says "no" but without the old style of involuntary RS it might be okay.
>>And to add more, along the lines of it being "Seer's Sense"... Those linked receive game wide visions as they're sent to Moon Mages? Part of sharing a link.
An interesting idea - I'm not certain it fits, but interesting. Knowing how those mechanics work it's likely nonviable (They're shared with the same mechanics we use to make announcements to a specific class, for example if there's an uncoming OOC meeting, so I don't know how you'd share one without sharing the other.) but still an interesting idea.
Another thought that comes to mind is something I wanted for it as a player which was more active monitoring. Being able to sense if they're stunned or otherwise in trouble in combat is nifty but you only know about this if you happen to perceive at that exact moment. How useful that would be in practice is open to question.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
You say DG through a Seer's link is redundant, but I think it would be really handy to be able to have and not to mention kind of flavorful. Being able to two-way think without albredine or Thoughtcast too. Also redundant, sure, but again flavorful and potentially useful in specific situations.
Active updates were something I always kind of wished Seer's gave. Pinging me when my target is below a certain vitality threshold, when they're under a status effect, when they're engaged by something in combat, when they move a zone further away and which direction they are compared to me and which they're moving in if they've changed zones. Maybe even give the target a way of actively "pinging" the Moon Mage by concentrating. Allow the link to go both ways so either party can get all of that information. Maybe allow me to see a target's mana at their location if their attunement type is different. A sorcery bonus in that situation would be nice, but that might be pushing luck.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Active updates were something I always kind of wished Seer's gave. Pinging me when my target is below a certain vitality threshold, when they're under a status effect, when they're engaged by something in combat, when they move a zone further away and which direction they are compared to me and which they're moving in if they've changed zones. Maybe even give the target a way of actively "pinging" the Moon Mage by concentrating. Allow the link to go both ways so either party can get all of that information. Maybe allow me to see a target's mana at their location if their attunement type is different. A sorcery bonus in that situation would be nice, but that might be pushing luck.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
I like the idea of it being an active sense link rather than the passive we have now. Any changes to anything that currently shows up in the list already for sure, such as starting to prepare or release a spell, gaining or losing spell effects, changes to prone, sitting, standing, etc. Other things that could be sensed: whether they entered stealth (if we can't already sense this. I forget), any crystal ring or thoughtcast thoughts they send to or receive from others. Teleologic or necromantic corruption would be interesting as well, both active and passive sensing, although I can see that being abused.
Also, seeing through your target's eyes wouldn't be entirely redundant with DG and SHM. Currently DG requires a fixed location but you can be mobile. SHM allows the target to be mobile, but you have to be fixed. Seer's Sense would be the effect that allows you to both be mobile. It sort of slots in there like the new RS did with MG, Teleport, and astral travel. On the surface redundant, but in practice actually provides a benefit that wasn't there before. Would probably be a good meta-spell addition.
<<Almost every proposal here is a big feature. Lots of coding, complex stuff. This is a perception spell and I'm more looking for what sort of information you could gain through the link.
Future Psychic Projection meta-spell addition to Seer's Sense.
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Also, seeing through your target's eyes wouldn't be entirely redundant with DG and SHM. Currently DG requires a fixed location but you can be mobile. SHM allows the target to be mobile, but you have to be fixed. Seer's Sense would be the effect that allows you to both be mobile. It sort of slots in there like the new RS did with MG, Teleport, and astral travel. On the surface redundant, but in practice actually provides a benefit that wasn't there before. Would probably be a good meta-spell addition.
<<Almost every proposal here is a big feature. Lots of coding, complex stuff. This is a perception spell and I'm more looking for what sort of information you could gain through the link.
Future Psychic Projection meta-spell addition to Seer's Sense.
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>>Any changes to anything that currently shows up in the list already for sure, such as starting to prepare or release a spell, gaining or losing spell effects
Setting aside the mechanical headache of real time monitoring all of that - do you REALLY want all that message spam?
>>changes to prone, sitting, standing, etc.
More likely (though stunned/bleeding/wedded are even more likely to trigger real time notification). Realistically I think I'd have to set it up as an effect that checked in on their status occasionally and flagged you if it caught any of these things. This means it would have a slightly lag and could miss brief events.
>>Other things that could be sensed: whether they entered stealth (if we can't already sense this. I forget)
Good question, I'd have to check the code.
>>any crystal ring or thoughtcast thoughts they send to or receive from others.
Very reluctant to go down this path for privacy reasons.
>>Teleologic or necromantic corruption would be interesting as well, both active and passive sensing, although I can see that being abused.
Teleologic is MUCH more likely than necromantic for just this reason.
>>Also, seeing through your target's eyes wouldn't be entirely redundant with DG and SHM. Currently DG requires a fixed location but you can be mobile. SHM allows the target to be mobile, but you have to be fixed. Seer's Sense would be the effect that allows you to both be mobile. It sort of slots in there like the new RS did with MG, Teleport, and astral travel. On the surface redundant, but in practice actually provides a benefit that wasn't there before. Would probably be a good meta-spell addition.
Interesting point. I'll muse on it further.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Setting aside the mechanical headache of real time monitoring all of that - do you REALLY want all that message spam?
>>changes to prone, sitting, standing, etc.
More likely (though stunned/bleeding/wedded are even more likely to trigger real time notification). Realistically I think I'd have to set it up as an effect that checked in on their status occasionally and flagged you if it caught any of these things. This means it would have a slightly lag and could miss brief events.
>>Other things that could be sensed: whether they entered stealth (if we can't already sense this. I forget)
Good question, I'd have to check the code.
>>any crystal ring or thoughtcast thoughts they send to or receive from others.
Very reluctant to go down this path for privacy reasons.
>>Teleologic or necromantic corruption would be interesting as well, both active and passive sensing, although I can see that being abused.
Teleologic is MUCH more likely than necromantic for just this reason.
>>Also, seeing through your target's eyes wouldn't be entirely redundant with DG and SHM. Currently DG requires a fixed location but you can be mobile. SHM allows the target to be mobile, but you have to be fixed. Seer's Sense would be the effect that allows you to both be mobile. It sort of slots in there like the new RS did with MG, Teleport, and astral travel. On the surface redundant, but in practice actually provides a benefit that wasn't there before. Would probably be a good meta-spell addition.
Interesting point. I'll muse on it further.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
<<Setting aside the mechanical headache of real time monitoring all of that - do you REALLY want all that message spam?
I was assuming it could be directed to the familiar window. Plus, I'm guessing that in a hit and run style PvP fight this all would very likely all be stuff someone might want to know.
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I was assuming it could be directed to the familiar window. Plus, I'm guessing that in a hit and run style PvP fight this all would very likely all be stuff someone might want to know.
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>>How about making it so you can shift a moonbeam to a linked person regardless of zone/distance? Or at least from a greater distance.
Use contingency.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Use contingency.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
>>Also, seeing through your target's eyes wouldn't be entirely redundant with DG and SHM. Currently DG requires a fixed location but you can be mobile. SHM allows the target to be mobile, but you have to be fixed. Seer's Sense would be the effect that allows you to both be mobile. It sort of slots in there like the new RS did with MG, Teleport, and astral travel. On the surface redundant, but in practice actually provides a benefit that wasn't there before. Would probably be a good meta-spell addition.
Out of anything else proposed, this the biggest reason why i'd take a meta for this spell. Just wanted to throw that out there, and I am definitely not into getting redundant spells.
Out of anything else proposed, this the biggest reason why i'd take a meta for this spell. Just wanted to throw that out there, and I am definitely not into getting redundant spells.
I use Seer's Sense for Contingency occasionally.
Suggested additional features:
Show active spells/predictions on the target, or being prepped by the target, same as predict analyze or a perceive <player>.
Showed +stats/skills that are buffed.
Warn the caster if they are being advanced/aimed at by the target of Seer's Sense.
Show in-game location, as Locate spell.
Indicate if the the recipient of Seer's Sense is being stalked or is in a group.
Suggested additional features:
Show active spells/predictions on the target, or being prepped by the target, same as predict analyze or a perceive <player>.
Showed +stats/skills that are buffed.
Warn the caster if they are being advanced/aimed at by the target of Seer's Sense.
Show in-game location, as Locate spell.
Indicate if the the recipient of Seer's Sense is being stalked or is in a group.
Probably beyond the scope of the spell but I'd love to see Seer's Sense give us an additional % chance to dodge snipe and ambush attacks.
Vote:
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Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
>>Probably beyond the scope of the spell but I'd love to see Seer's Sense give us an additional % chance to dodge snipe and ambush attacks.
We could call it an evasion boost!
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
We could call it an evasion boost!
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
>We could call it an evasion boost!
The +evasion boost is virtually the only reason to cast the spell now. It's probably a more valuable spell building on it's strengths vs adding extra novelty padding. I'm talking about getting spell/ranged sniped or ambushed and seer's sense giving you an extra roll for a % chance to outright dodge the strike.
Seer's sense's main 2 problems imo:
1.) You have to be in the same room as your target to cast it. Unless your target is on the other side of the world why not just walk/gate/teleport/contingency/RS them?
2.) The information it gives you about your target. Pure novelty. What value is there in knowing it? Adding more information that isn't actionable only increases it's novelty.
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The +evasion boost is virtually the only reason to cast the spell now. It's probably a more valuable spell building on it's strengths vs adding extra novelty padding. I'm talking about getting spell/ranged sniped or ambushed and seer's sense giving you an extra roll for a % chance to outright dodge the strike.
Seer's sense's main 2 problems imo:
1.) You have to be in the same room as your target to cast it. Unless your target is on the other side of the world why not just walk/gate/teleport/contingency/RS them?
2.) The information it gives you about your target. Pure novelty. What value is there in knowing it? Adding more information that isn't actionable only increases it's novelty.
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>>The +evasion boost is virtually the only reason to cast the spell now.
And that's why that's the only part of the spell we charge slots for.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
And that's why that's the only part of the spell we charge slots for.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
>And that's why that's the only part of the spell we charge slots for.
I'm confused about the slot cost then. Our +evasion is self cast only but it costs the same as Instinct which can also be cast on others. It costs the same as Aggressive stance that's +evasion and +brawling. Harmony is +evasion, +parry, +reflex for 3 slots.
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I'm confused about the slot cost then. Our +evasion is self cast only but it costs the same as Instinct which can also be cast on others. It costs the same as Aggressive stance that's +evasion and +brawling. Harmony is +evasion, +parry, +reflex for 3 slots.
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Evasion buff is 2 slots by default.
We don't charge for castable on others. Seer's Evasion boost can't be cast on others for what I think are obvious reasons, but almost every class already has an evasion boost anyhow.
Harmony might be undercosted - I don't have time right now to verify where that costing came from.
Aggressive Stance essentially gets the brawling boost for free since it's an Empath spell whereas anyone else would pay a slot for that.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
We don't charge for castable on others. Seer's Evasion boost can't be cast on others for what I think are obvious reasons, but almost every class already has an evasion boost anyhow.
Harmony might be undercosted - I don't have time right now to verify where that costing came from.
Aggressive Stance essentially gets the brawling boost for free since it's an Empath spell whereas anyone else would pay a slot for that.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Would be amusing is Seer's Sense had a mets option that triggers advantages for both parties, but only when both people are in the same room.
+Tactics: Imagine the link to someone else allowing you to use their combat knowledge/positioning for your own benefit
+Perception: Similarly, knowing your surroundings plus the surroundings of another improves your ability to spot stuff
+Stealth: By playing off a deeper knowledge of each other's positioning, you can cause disruptions at key moments that provide distractions for the other while not revealing yourself.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
+Tactics: Imagine the link to someone else allowing you to use their combat knowledge/positioning for your own benefit
+Perception: Similarly, knowing your surroundings plus the surroundings of another improves your ability to spot stuff
+Stealth: By playing off a deeper knowledge of each other's positioning, you can cause disruptions at key moments that provide distractions for the other while not revealing yourself.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I know I'm late to the party on this thread, hope I can still throw in some thoughts. I like the following potential additions to the Seer's link:
1) DG/mirror effect. I agree that the double mobility would be nice.
2) Beam to the linked person -- especially if dead. Sometimes this is just more convenient, especially during an invasion where you don't want to show up stunned.
3) Notification if the person goes under X% health. Ideally with some way to quickly rift them without consent during that time. Like, snatch them from the jaws of death. This would be even better than #2.
- Navesi
1) DG/mirror effect. I agree that the double mobility would be nice.
2) Beam to the linked person -- especially if dead. Sometimes this is just more convenient, especially during an invasion where you don't want to show up stunned.
3) Notification if the person goes under X% health. Ideally with some way to quickly rift them without consent during that time. Like, snatch them from the jaws of death. This would be even better than #2.
- Navesi
