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<<People are actually so defeatist about it that they are saying, pvp isnt even what dragonrealms is about.
It's not, no matter how hard you want it to be.
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You're missing my point.
My point is, Warrior Mage Pvp has degraded so severely.
Thats the opinion.
"Dragonrealms is bad for pvp anyways, try other games."
"That isnt what this game is about"
If thats the new direction of the game, and I just didnt get the memo okay.
But ive seen numerous posts saying otherwise.
That pvp was something that would always be a part of the game.
I think there is something dangerously wrong, when the player base is so demoralized about the state of a guilds pvp effectiveness it stops caring about pvp entirely.
That's not the new direction of the game. Dragonrealms has NEVER really been about PVP. Playing back on AoL PvP was almost unheard of. They've done a lot in the past decade to improve pvp but this is still primarily a pve game.
Playing both a cleric and a wm both above 100th circle I can tell you WMs aren't terrible. I prefer my cleric but that's for more personal reason than mechanical.
I know its kinda labor intensive but could you describe a scenario in which youve found shockwave and tremor effective?
And how do you deal with the AC and not being able to cast through it on a target you want to TM?
Do you use TC in town rooms?
Do you find some guilds less effective for the spells to target than others?
And MOF why MOF over symbiosis agility?
For the PVP?
>That's not the new direction of the game. Dragonrealms has NEVER really been about PVP. Playing back on AoL PvP was almost unheard of. They've done a lot in the past decade to improve pvp but this is still primarily a pve game.
It was kind of a weird sea change when PVP balance changes started happening, or at least it felt that way. I remember being super annoyed at their consequences in PvE (despite the protests of dev that PVP development wasn't going to effect PVE), though by now I rather feel its been good for the game in the long run... maybe. As a primary WM player I'm contractually obligated to remain bitter about it, and I don't think it's really improved the core DR PVP experience much. I really, really hate the PVP experience in DR though so I'm probably the least qualified person to criticize it.
(It's terrible)
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
It was kind of a weird sea change when PVP balance changes started happening, or at least it felt that way. I remember being super annoyed at their consequences in PvE (despite the protests of dev that PVP development wasn't going to effect PVE), though by now I rather feel its been good for the game in the long run... maybe. As a primary WM player I'm contractually obligated to remain bitter about it, and I don't think it's really improved the core DR PVP experience much. I really, really hate the PVP experience in DR though so I'm probably the least qualified person to criticize it.
(It's terrible)
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
We're ineffective in PvP, but I think that's less due to us being terrible than it is a lot of other guilds having one or two things that are TOO good. I've basically decided to withhold posting on this until the rest of that stuff gets knocked down into the realm of sanity some.
I do think we need some help with engaging stealthy targets particularly, but I think that's as much an issue with the way engagement works as it is a WM issue.
I WOULD like to see "NUKE THE SITE FROM ORBIT" be a viable way to deal with stealth.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
I do think we need some help with engaging stealthy targets particularly, but I think that's as much an issue with the way engagement works as it is a WM issue.
I WOULD like to see "NUKE THE SITE FROM ORBIT" be a viable way to deal with stealth.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
I'd probably prefer a utility spell that allows us to store one fully prepared spell(both targeted or otherwise) at whatever mana we put into it and then invoke it later for use. So like if I knock someone down with IP I could invoke the spell to get an fully prepared thunderclap or something to further lock them down or a fully targeted TM single strike spell.
I think there are a few ways moving/stealthy targets could probably be alleviated for WMs and hopefully we're able to discuss them at some point in a reasonable manner.
Also I'm pretty sure we have one TM spell that isn't affected by AC at all but I feel almost a contractual obligation with my WM not to mention it. lol
I think there are a few ways moving/stealthy targets could probably be alleviated for WMs and hopefully we're able to discuss them at some point in a reasonable manner.
Also I'm pretty sure we have one TM spell that isn't affected by AC at all but I feel almost a contractual obligation with my WM not to mention it. lol
I do think there is some room in the Warrior Mage books for some more meta-magic stuff. We have to walk the fine line since that's sort of the cleric thing and we try and keep utility as the most obvious hole in Warrior Mage spells, but that doesn't eliminate the entire realm of effects.
Likewise, there's no particular reason Warrior Mages can't have a physical damage barrier other than we're really not developing new barriers until we get the existing ones sorted out (And you still have access to MAF and Lay Ward, the two most bahroken barriers in the game).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Likewise, there's no particular reason Warrior Mages can't have a physical damage barrier other than we're really not developing new barriers until we get the existing ones sorted out (And you still have access to MAF and Lay Ward, the two most bahroken barriers in the game).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Yeah, I mostly mentioned the type of spell I did because I know that you guys would probably prefer to develop things similar-ish as a way to help move development along although that does have a slight twist to it. Utility definitely is that rough spot to think of spells without trying to step on other guild's toes. Have fun writing that up as air bubble's meta-spell. lol
>>I do think there is some room in the Warrior Mage books for some more meta-magic stuff. We have to walk the fine line since that's sort of the cleric thing and we try and keep utility as the most obvious hole in Warrior Mage spells, but that doesn't eliminate the entire realm of effects.<<
Metamagic would be neat. In general a couple of things that speed up the disable ---> damage one-two punch that is most of PvP would be sort of helpful.
ie: A cyclic disabler. Or a Dragon's Breath style disabler that is precast and fires instantly. Or a BG style disabler that could almost certainly never exist without being OP as heck but a man can dream. =(
Something like the above would make the "disable target, unload all my precast TM as fast as possible while hoping I have time for a targeted spell too" strategy better. It would also open up the ability to target something and THEN disable it so it's visible (hopefully. Some items and abilities will change this dynamic which is part of the problem WMs have) when you cast.
Or an engagement blocker like old Ring of Spears which limits your tactical options (no retreating, advancing, or basically moving in any form, or doing random RP verbs for some reason) but also makes it hard for someone to get the drop on you.
Or, taking it in a new direction for Warmages, a DOT that once cast can't be avoided so it puts the target on a clock.
Mazrian
Metamagic would be neat. In general a couple of things that speed up the disable ---> damage one-two punch that is most of PvP would be sort of helpful.
ie: A cyclic disabler. Or a Dragon's Breath style disabler that is precast and fires instantly. Or a BG style disabler that could almost certainly never exist without being OP as heck but a man can dream. =(
Something like the above would make the "disable target, unload all my precast TM as fast as possible while hoping I have time for a targeted spell too" strategy better. It would also open up the ability to target something and THEN disable it so it's visible (hopefully. Some items and abilities will change this dynamic which is part of the problem WMs have) when you cast.
Or an engagement blocker like old Ring of Spears which limits your tactical options (no retreating, advancing, or basically moving in any form, or doing random RP verbs for some reason) but also makes it hard for someone to get the drop on you.
Or, taking it in a new direction for Warmages, a DOT that once cast can't be avoided so it puts the target on a clock.
Mazrian
The discussion needs to remain civil, and constructive feedback needs to be posted, or your posts will be removed. Figure out a way to express yourself without the hyperbole and sky is falling nonsense.
Further, address points of a post without the attacks on the posters or you will quickly not be posting for awhile.
Definition ~ Constructive - posting suggestions that promote improvement or development.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
Amish. Bro. I feel like these are good questions but some reflection and maybe more PvP experience would provide the answers. Like:
>>I know its kinda labor intensive but could you describe a scenario in which youve found shockwave and tremor effective?
Tremor's not bad for dueling. While it's up your opponent is getting periodic balance hits and it could possibly (though not likely) knock someone out of hiding. Shockwave is kind of an "eh, might as well do something" option you'd use against stealth. It's not great because by the time you can follow up your target is probably already rehidden or invisible but eh it's what we've got.
>>And how do you deal with the AC and not being able to cast through it on a target you want to TM?
You use Veil of Ice instead, most of the time, since VOI is pretty great anti-TM without that disadvantage. Against a Warmage or a Cleric you might use AC and try to beat them down with weapons and disablers (pretty much what you have to do if the other WM decides to use AC), and only drop AC to lay a bunch of damage on once you have an advantage. A lot depends on whether you're dueling someone in one room or moving around guerilla style playing cat and mouse through multiple rooms. If that's the case you're probably loading up BG and DB if you have them, prepping a capped disable, and trying to disable them first so you can unload damage for like 15 seconds then bug out and rearm. In that case you'd have VoI up anyway but you might walk around with AC up as well in case you get caught out.
>>Do you use TC in town rooms?
Sure. Why not? You'll get arrested later but it works fine in the moment.
>>Do you find some guilds less effective for the spells to target than others?
Well clearly but it is what it is.
>>And MOF why MOF over symbiosis agility?
Because with MOF you get a weapon boost (must have if you plan to use weapons in your conflict IMO) and double the agility boost of the symbiosis. The stealth debuff is irrelevant because LOL Warmage.
Thinking about it, WMs are not even that bad at PvP if you relax some constraints and allow moving around. They were better when you could nuke the heck out of someone if you got even a momentary advantage but they're still not bad.
Mazrian
>>I know its kinda labor intensive but could you describe a scenario in which youve found shockwave and tremor effective?
Tremor's not bad for dueling. While it's up your opponent is getting periodic balance hits and it could possibly (though not likely) knock someone out of hiding. Shockwave is kind of an "eh, might as well do something" option you'd use against stealth. It's not great because by the time you can follow up your target is probably already rehidden or invisible but eh it's what we've got.
>>And how do you deal with the AC and not being able to cast through it on a target you want to TM?
You use Veil of Ice instead, most of the time, since VOI is pretty great anti-TM without that disadvantage. Against a Warmage or a Cleric you might use AC and try to beat them down with weapons and disablers (pretty much what you have to do if the other WM decides to use AC), and only drop AC to lay a bunch of damage on once you have an advantage. A lot depends on whether you're dueling someone in one room or moving around guerilla style playing cat and mouse through multiple rooms. If that's the case you're probably loading up BG and DB if you have them, prepping a capped disable, and trying to disable them first so you can unload damage for like 15 seconds then bug out and rearm. In that case you'd have VoI up anyway but you might walk around with AC up as well in case you get caught out.
>>Do you use TC in town rooms?
Sure. Why not? You'll get arrested later but it works fine in the moment.
>>Do you find some guilds less effective for the spells to target than others?
Well clearly but it is what it is.
>>And MOF why MOF over symbiosis agility?
Because with MOF you get a weapon boost (must have if you plan to use weapons in your conflict IMO) and double the agility boost of the symbiosis. The stealth debuff is irrelevant because LOL Warmage.
Thinking about it, WMs are not even that bad at PvP if you relax some constraints and allow moving around. They were better when you could nuke the heck out of someone if you got even a momentary advantage but they're still not bad.
Mazrian
I would love to see WM "synergies" based on the elements.
Like, landing a fire spell adds some incedental DoT and prevents stealth for a short period while on fire. Earth spells briefly weakening armor (similar to a tactics-jnduced armor debuff). Electrical damage causing periodic muscle spasms at random (periodic, random 1-3s RT inflicted over a duration). Air spells buffeting and giving a short pulsing hit to balance. Water spells that sap fatigue when they deal damage. Stuff like that would make our very same-y feeling spells each feel unique, as well as giving additional combat utility beyond "I cast the spells that make the mans fall down".
Maybe tie this to summoning in some way and consume elemental charge for the secondary effects? Right now there is no purpose to Elemental Charge other than pathways - this would be a cool additional amount of utility in combat. PATHWAY FOCUS SYNERGY to enable the effects or something.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
Like, landing a fire spell adds some incedental DoT and prevents stealth for a short period while on fire. Earth spells briefly weakening armor (similar to a tactics-jnduced armor debuff). Electrical damage causing periodic muscle spasms at random (periodic, random 1-3s RT inflicted over a duration). Air spells buffeting and giving a short pulsing hit to balance. Water spells that sap fatigue when they deal damage. Stuff like that would make our very same-y feeling spells each feel unique, as well as giving additional combat utility beyond "I cast the spells that make the mans fall down".
Maybe tie this to summoning in some way and consume elemental charge for the secondary effects? Right now there is no purpose to Elemental Charge other than pathways - this would be a cool additional amount of utility in combat. PATHWAY FOCUS SYNERGY to enable the effects or something.
- Starlear, Warrior Mage and Lieutenant of Ilithi's Crystal Vanguard -
> Yes, you do. Warrior Mages excel in PvE combat. Stop equating combat with PvP and telling new players to not join the warrior mage guild because of it.
In my opinion, this is the biggest point. All guilds, save maybe traders and empaths, can be fine in PvP at low levels. This is skewed heavily if you equip yourself out with gear from a higher level account or quest. High level PvP is a completely different beast, but new players are YEARS of IN GAME time away from that. So many things can and will change between now and then, and it's not like existing high level accounts will just stop training.
Even after those years, the newbies starting today will never be able to compete with existing high level accounts on a level training field. High level PvP just shouldn't be the reason to join or not to join a guild. If you're talking about low-level PvP then you're greatly exaggerating the problem, as skills and racial stats are the primary determining factor. Mid-level PvP is somewhere in between.
No no im not nearly the most experienced in warrior mage pvp.
But the times I have dabbled, its been a smear fest. Most notably against a stealth oriented guild.
But if more people have spells or tactics they have found effective at mitigating that attack, or creating that window for an attack of your own to land, please by all means.
Post.
Thank you
I have a better idea. =) Come find me in game tonight (or another night, for sure) and we can do a sparring clinic in front of the guild or something. Been awhile since that happened and it's usually fun. You'll also probalby find it a lot more productive than trying to figure out what I'm getting at from a post.
Let me know about what level your dude is and I'll try to round up some people who are close and also want to learn.
Mazrian
Let me know about what level your dude is and I'll try to round up some people who are close and also want to learn.
Mazrian
Thanks for most of the input, but this thread as downgraded into a PvP discussion thread and I detest pvp so that is not my point of interest.
I enjoy having magic as an option but weapons and armor prove to be more used. I would like to use and learn them better.
I have collected a lot of gear and it is all bound to me so i would like to use it in my new guild if i reroll.
I like having a familiar but its not something that can keep me a warrior mage by itself.
Can we return to advice and input on the topic of staying in the current guild or going back to square one and doing that.
Don't reroll. Transfer items to a new character if you are hard set on trying something new. De-activate warmage. You never know when a change may come about and makes you regret deleting all that past effort, or you may find the other guild you think better has its own set of issues you hate.
>>Don't reroll. Transfer items to a new character if you are hard set on trying something new. De-activate warmage. You never know when a change may come about and makes you regret deleting all that past effort, or you may find the other guild you think better has its own set of issues you hate.<<
This x 100.
Unless you're a Bard, then reroll x 100 but pick bard every time.
IMO the problem (that I had) is that playing a Warrior Mage in Everything 3.1 is very different from what it was under old combat and Magic 2.0, but it's superficially similar enough that it FEELS like it should be giving you the experience you remember and it doesn't quite deliver. Once you reacclimate and sort of get a feel for how things work it's pretty sweet again.
So yeah, IMO if you want to try something else make a new character and transfer your items because you'll want the WM one day.
Mazrian
This x 100.
Unless you're a Bard, then reroll x 100 but pick bard every time.
IMO the problem (that I had) is that playing a Warrior Mage in Everything 3.1 is very different from what it was under old combat and Magic 2.0, but it's superficially similar enough that it FEELS like it should be giving you the experience you remember and it doesn't quite deliver. Once you reacclimate and sort of get a feel for how things work it's pretty sweet again.
So yeah, IMO if you want to try something else make a new character and transfer your items because you'll want the WM one day.
Mazrian
Okay do I tried paladin for a few weeks. Being better at using my armor WAS awesome but other than basically perma blessed weapons i missed the content we warrior mages have AND the poor paladins have so much.that is broken for them that could use some repairs.
I still want blessed weapons for hunting. I hope thats an option when enchanting comes out. Even if it have to keep my weapon with a big cambrinth battery in it charged.
I still want blessed weapons for hunting. I hope thats an option when enchanting comes out. Even if it have to keep my weapon with a big cambrinth battery in it charged.
I think the new barrier spells are going to help deal with some of the problems with warmage defenses, because let's face it, pve or pvpwise having 2 defenses at tert rate is the suck. SW and SUF used to balance this out a bit, they've been nerfed.
I am holding out deactivating my warmage for seeing how mana shield pans out, because honestly we could use a bit of love in the defenses department. It's been said in countless posts by numerous people, and our main downfall.
I am holding out deactivating my warmage for seeing how mana shield pans out, because honestly we could use a bit of love in the defenses department. It's been said in countless posts by numerous people, and our main downfall.
> I think the new barrier spells are going to help deal with some of the problems with warmage defenses, because let's face it, pve or pvpwise having 2 defenses at tert rate is the suck.
* Guilds with three defenses at 2nd or above: barbarian, ranger,
* Guilds with two defenses at 2nd or above: paladin, thief, trader (but trader),
* Guilds with one defense at 2nd or above: bard, cleric, empath, moon mage, necromancer, warrior mage.
So that affects more guilds than not, and warrior mages are one of the few guilds that can buff all three active defenses (within SOI mind you) and stats that apply to those defenses at the same time.
> SW and SUF used to balance this out a bit, they've been nerfed.
How were they nerfed? SUF still buffs parry and balance. SW still buffs reflex and evasion. In fact, at the higher end (1000+), you have a greater potential than you had pre 3.1. YS still gives +armor (not that it's any use, but that's related to the skillset and not the buff). AEG still buffs stamina, shield, and strength.
A buff is a buff regardless of guild, even if SOI gives it a little more of a nudge.
> I am holding out deactivating my warmage for seeing how mana shield pans out, because honestly we could use a bit of love in the defenses department.
Honestly, I don't see how warrior mages could get a better buff without changing skillsets.
There's a way to resolve everyone's problems with everyone else's guilds and learning rates. Drop skillset learning rates completely, generalize skills and work on guild flavor to make the difference. if everyone learned everything at the same rate
there would be balance. We wouldn't need all these buffs clogging up the spellbooks, there could be more useful spells coded in,
more abilities expanded on and that is what would separate guild a from b.
there would be balance. We wouldn't need all these buffs clogging up the spellbooks, there could be more useful spells coded in,
more abilities expanded on and that is what would separate guild a from b.
I too wish they would embrace a different skill learning system. I would rather they fully embrace SOI in a different manner. For instance, all primary skills in your skillset continue to learn primary. Secondary skills in the set that are within SOI learn at a primary rate, and tertiary SOI skills are bumped up to secondary rates. This would help provide a little bit more differentiation between the guilds based on what they supposedly have a focus on, while not penalizing skills from what they have traditionally been.
> I too wish they would embrace a different skill learning system. I would rather they fully embrace SOI in a different manner. For instance, all primary skills in your skillset continue to learn primary. Secondary skills in the set that are within SOI learn at a primary rate, and tertiary SOI skills are bumped up to secondary rates. This would help provide a little bit more differentiation between the guilds based on what they supposedly have a focus on, while not penalizing skills from what they have traditionally been.
I too would support this, but I have a feeling the game is going a different direction. For example, they had all skills gaining at a primary rate until 100(?), but that was recently nerfed to 25. Shame really, but it is what it is.
>>Well it's definitely not all skillsets. Primarys still train as primary :P Pretty sure Secondarys still train as primary to at least 50
Yea, still think it works like this. It used to be everything was primary till 50 then everything except primaries were secondary till 100, at last that's what I remember.
>> Shame really, but it is what it is.
It got a bit ridiculous when you could get through the first 100 ranks in less than a week. Most of DR's content (or at least when this change was made) was sub 300 ranks. Racing through the majority of the content in a matter of weeks was not good for the game.
Yea, still think it works like this. It used to be everything was primary till 50 then everything except primaries were secondary till 100, at last that's what I remember.
>> Shame really, but it is what it is.
It got a bit ridiculous when you could get through the first 100 ranks in less than a week. Most of DR's content (or at least when this change was made) was sub 300 ranks. Racing through the majority of the content in a matter of weeks was not good for the game.
