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Hey guys, I'd like to start a discussion with everyone about limiting the number of services you can get at a festival. Long ago, you might have remembered we had the MERCHANT system, where you could check the last time you had a service and could be limited that route. But the way the system worked then worked better on pen and paper than it did in practice, so as you can see, it went away.
But what do you guys think about limiting services? We have our MAJOR services that limits one per account. But then the problem comes to MINOR services (this would include anything from GALD to custom verbs). So without thinking about MAJORs and MINORS, let's just look at services as a whole. What do you guys think are acceptable numbers? Would this effect your event experience knowing we're trying to take an approach to spread the wealth?
DragonRealms uses a limitation system. I've looked over there systems pretty thoroughly. It was something we considered this year at Ebon Gate, but decided to try out some other new systems.
~Wyrom, SGM
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I like the limited majors and the unlimited minors. I prefer the current system where usually a merchant will visit and do GALD for people who haven't had anything done yet. I would like to see powerful profession items limited to be won by that profession (e.g. hollow soulstone wand), as most of the Voln armors were reserved for characters actually in Voln.
I don't think there's some cookie cutter limit for services as there are so many different types. I think the 1 per account enhancive permanence is fair, I think the unlimited GALD is fair. Grouping them all together under the label "service" would lead to more unfairness. Maybe some of the other services at this fest should have been labeled as major besides kroderine (ensorcells, armor resistance, bow sighting), I think that's what needs to be looked at.
The main negative issues I have with how many things people win is when multiple accounts come into play and someone blatantly has 4 alts in a room and they eat up a massive amount of time getting alters or get spun multiple times when the merchant is only doing a handful of people. I understand they paid per account to go but it's still rather annoying and this would bypass any limitations you put and only help them out even further.
As far as limiting wins per account I don't think you can just look at it as a "service" since not all services are equal. Winning a Kroderine raffle isn't the same as getting your cloak deepened. Lightening and deepening is quick and shouldn't really be restricted at all just because you are active and hit alot of merchants. General alters take a bit more time but at the same time they aren't amazingly special either. What I would actually like to see more of are attuned items. I hate joining raffles when I know I am not going to use the item just so I can sell it in hopes to make enough coin to buy the item from the last raffle I actually wanted to win. I know allot of people will disagree with me on that one but I would love to see the majority of the higher stuff get stuck on the person who won it so the only reason for joining the raffle is because you actually intend to use it (or just want to be mean). I know that means more items will be lost as players leave and people who don't go to the events don't have a chance at getting them but I'd rather see that than people who have no intention of ever using it win it and then horde it. Or atleast limit some of the more specific items to the professions more often or according to your skill set and other skills. If you have no PLAY SKILL then you can't win a master quality instrument. If you do not use a bow then you can't win sighting. If you don't swing a melee weapon then you can't win banes. If you don't use scale+ armor or a shield you can't enter the defensive kroderine. etc..etc..
Another problem with limiting wins is that means you are going to pass up on things you could have won in hopes to get lucky at the very end? That would be really disappointing if at the end you come up with much less or nothing just because the raffle or spins you really wanted came up later in the event than some of the stuff you would enjoy winning but aren't your main focus.
Daemon Ranger
As far as limiting wins per account I don't think you can just look at it as a "service" since not all services are equal. Winning a Kroderine raffle isn't the same as getting your cloak deepened. Lightening and deepening is quick and shouldn't really be restricted at all just because you are active and hit alot of merchants. General alters take a bit more time but at the same time they aren't amazingly special either. What I would actually like to see more of are attuned items. I hate joining raffles when I know I am not going to use the item just so I can sell it in hopes to make enough coin to buy the item from the last raffle I actually wanted to win. I know allot of people will disagree with me on that one but I would love to see the majority of the higher stuff get stuck on the person who won it so the only reason for joining the raffle is because you actually intend to use it (or just want to be mean). I know that means more items will be lost as players leave and people who don't go to the events don't have a chance at getting them but I'd rather see that than people who have no intention of ever using it win it and then horde it. Or atleast limit some of the more specific items to the professions more often or according to your skill set and other skills. If you have no PLAY SKILL then you can't win a master quality instrument. If you do not use a bow then you can't win sighting. If you don't swing a melee weapon then you can't win banes. If you don't use scale+ armor or a shield you can't enter the defensive kroderine. etc..etc..
Another problem with limiting wins is that means you are going to pass up on things you could have won in hopes to get lucky at the very end? That would be really disappointing if at the end you come up with much less or nothing just because the raffle or spins you really wanted came up later in the event than some of the stuff you would enjoy winning but aren't your main focus.
Daemon Ranger
I would be fine with some sort of reasonable event limit on services defined as raffles and live merchant merchant services (GALD, Unlocks, and similar). The definition of 'reasonable' should be somewhat tied to the cost, duration, and type of event being held. Maybe for events like EG with the character multi-pass add x additional services to the account for each additional character attending from the same account (I'm thinking something like +2 per each additional paid character but still manage it as an account limit).
I would not include prizes for participation events (drinking games, poetry contests, gnome tossing, etc) or prizes for carnival type games in these limits. Participation events because I would like to see more (not less) people participate in these and carnival type games because the silver/time spent on these should be the limiting factor for these.
Along with those limits though, I would also like to see a couple improvements on the communications/time management side of things so that people can be sure to participate in the things that drew them to the event in the first place. A couple suggestions along these lines:
1) Set standard hours of operation (SHO)for each event. (e.g 'Standard' hours for Ebon Gate will be from 9 AM EST until 11 PM EST). This will allow people some opportunity to eat, bathe, sleep, etc. without missing out on the things they are most interested in at the festival.
- Anything and everything spontaneous can happen at any time during the SHO much like things can happen today).
- Any raffles, games, custom services, etc that are beyond GALD that are expected to occur outside of the SHO need to be communicated in advance during the preceding SHO or earlier. This doesn't mean that the exact time needs to be communicated but something along the lines of 'Armor Resistance will occur sometime late this evening/early tomorrow morning' would be great.
2) Continue to standardize the ways in which activities will be communicated.
- I think area announcements and posts on the official web site have gotten much better over the past few years (please keep this up). However, I managed to completely miss out on any RP/interaction with Trelphyn because apparently the only announcement/communication was via the thought net (or maybe it also occurred during times I wasn't around which would mean it was pretty late in the evening on any given day - see notes on SHO).
- Select AT MOST two ways to communicate events, raffles, games, etc. and make them the official standard. I get wanting to allow merchants to have the freedom to work in their own ways but having half a dozen different ways to communicate (with some of the methods seldom used) doesn't really help improve communication. Standardize on ANNOUNCE and posting on the official web site and require that all merchants to use at least one of these channels in addition to any other communication channels they may choose to use. If someone wants to use the Thought Net that's great! Have them send out at least one announcement that something might be happening on the thought net/in the event area then think away!
3) Having a RAFFLE tool that shows any/all RAFFLES that are currently setup with location and restrictions would be awesome and address a fairly common frustration/question for a lot of event goers.
4) Having a tool to review ANNOUNCEMENTS for services, games, etc. from the past hour or so would also be very useful to see what's been happening/in progress as sometimes announcements are missed in the activity of what is going on. For that matter, why not have announcements post directly to a folder on the offical web forums?
Thanks for reading through this and working to make Gemstone events even better than they already are!
-- Robert
I would not include prizes for participation events (drinking games, poetry contests, gnome tossing, etc) or prizes for carnival type games in these limits. Participation events because I would like to see more (not less) people participate in these and carnival type games because the silver/time spent on these should be the limiting factor for these.
Along with those limits though, I would also like to see a couple improvements on the communications/time management side of things so that people can be sure to participate in the things that drew them to the event in the first place. A couple suggestions along these lines:
1) Set standard hours of operation (SHO)for each event. (e.g 'Standard' hours for Ebon Gate will be from 9 AM EST until 11 PM EST). This will allow people some opportunity to eat, bathe, sleep, etc. without missing out on the things they are most interested in at the festival.
- Anything and everything spontaneous can happen at any time during the SHO much like things can happen today).
- Any raffles, games, custom services, etc that are beyond GALD that are expected to occur outside of the SHO need to be communicated in advance during the preceding SHO or earlier. This doesn't mean that the exact time needs to be communicated but something along the lines of 'Armor Resistance will occur sometime late this evening/early tomorrow morning' would be great.
2) Continue to standardize the ways in which activities will be communicated.
- I think area announcements and posts on the official web site have gotten much better over the past few years (please keep this up). However, I managed to completely miss out on any RP/interaction with Trelphyn because apparently the only announcement/communication was via the thought net (or maybe it also occurred during times I wasn't around which would mean it was pretty late in the evening on any given day - see notes on SHO).
- Select AT MOST two ways to communicate events, raffles, games, etc. and make them the official standard. I get wanting to allow merchants to have the freedom to work in their own ways but having half a dozen different ways to communicate (with some of the methods seldom used) doesn't really help improve communication. Standardize on ANNOUNCE and posting on the official web site and require that all merchants to use at least one of these channels in addition to any other communication channels they may choose to use. If someone wants to use the Thought Net that's great! Have them send out at least one announcement that something might be happening on the thought net/in the event area then think away!
3) Having a RAFFLE tool that shows any/all RAFFLES that are currently setup with location and restrictions would be awesome and address a fairly common frustration/question for a lot of event goers.
4) Having a tool to review ANNOUNCEMENTS for services, games, etc. from the past hour or so would also be very useful to see what's been happening/in progress as sometimes announcements are missed in the activity of what is going on. For that matter, why not have announcements post directly to a folder on the offical web forums?
Thanks for reading through this and working to make Gemstone events even better than they already are!
-- Robert
>1) Set standard hours of operation (SHO)for each event. (e.g 'Standard' hours for Ebon Gate will be from 9 AM EST until 11 PM EST). This will allow people some opportunity to eat, bathe, sleep, etc. without missing out on the things they are most interested in at the festival.
I think rather than standard hours because there are a lot of international players, more pre-announced times of the non-GALD services.
Since you did ask for thoughts, I'll give mine.
Would this include limiting wins at games? Would wins from contests be included? Who would you be anticipating helping by limiting?
I get that many people put the bulk of their effort, and get most of their enjoyment out of, playing the games and winning the big prizes. This isn't a statement about that, because many people also put in the bulk of their effort, and get most of their enjoyment out of, hunting down and winning services.
I see limiting as an impetus for those with multiple accounts to simply bring more accounts. This is, of course, good for Simu's bottom line, but it seems it would be against the spirit of limiting in the first place. Point to note, I have three accounts but only brought one. I'm not really your standard "MAer". Limiting certainly might make me consider bringing a second account when possible - one to be on the ready for those specialty things I really want, the other to get the max number of services.
That said, we all know some people put forth more effort than others. And that's fine, we all have our priorities. If someone wants to bust their hump for services, or dig 10 hours a day, shouldn't that effort, and sheer will, count for something? I also acknowledge that some people put forth the effort, but are just unfortunately "unlucky". But does limiting answer that?
I feel that I should mention my wins and services for EG so far (mainly because someone will question it): a raffle for "stock" signature verbs, a contest that netted me a post-title, a contest that netted me a prophesy mask and a "Finvale" crystal, a spin for a top tier Vathwyn item, 1 lightening, 4 specialty or unlocking services, 1 "fishhook" for a general alteration.
Where that fits in the averages, I don't know. Maybe I'm already way over what would be the limit, maybe I'm no where near. I don't compare my festival experiences against what other people have done; I compare mine against the time, effort, and funds (silvers and cold, hard cash) I put in. I'd point out that some of the contests cost significant time, and a LOT of effort in some cases - they definitely aren't a 1:1 ratio with your standard GALD.
I certainly didn't go to every merchant I was able to, or heard about, so if my numbers are low, it was sheer lack of effort. If they're high, then woo hoo I got seriously lucky! I truly don't know.
Just my thoughts.
Would this include limiting wins at games? Would wins from contests be included? Who would you be anticipating helping by limiting?
I get that many people put the bulk of their effort, and get most of their enjoyment out of, playing the games and winning the big prizes. This isn't a statement about that, because many people also put in the bulk of their effort, and get most of their enjoyment out of, hunting down and winning services.
I see limiting as an impetus for those with multiple accounts to simply bring more accounts. This is, of course, good for Simu's bottom line, but it seems it would be against the spirit of limiting in the first place. Point to note, I have three accounts but only brought one. I'm not really your standard "MAer". Limiting certainly might make me consider bringing a second account when possible - one to be on the ready for those specialty things I really want, the other to get the max number of services.
That said, we all know some people put forth more effort than others. And that's fine, we all have our priorities. If someone wants to bust their hump for services, or dig 10 hours a day, shouldn't that effort, and sheer will, count for something? I also acknowledge that some people put forth the effort, but are just unfortunately "unlucky". But does limiting answer that?
I feel that I should mention my wins and services for EG so far (mainly because someone will question it): a raffle for "stock" signature verbs, a contest that netted me a post-title, a contest that netted me a prophesy mask and a "Finvale" crystal, a spin for a top tier Vathwyn item, 1 lightening, 4 specialty or unlocking services, 1 "fishhook" for a general alteration.
Where that fits in the averages, I don't know. Maybe I'm already way over what would be the limit, maybe I'm no where near. I don't compare my festival experiences against what other people have done; I compare mine against the time, effort, and funds (silvers and cold, hard cash) I put in. I'd point out that some of the contests cost significant time, and a LOT of effort in some cases - they definitely aren't a 1:1 ratio with your standard GALD.
I certainly didn't go to every merchant I was able to, or heard about, so if my numbers are low, it was sheer lack of effort. If they're high, then woo hoo I got seriously lucky! I truly don't know.
Just my thoughts.
I was not a fan of MERCHANT. I am all for unlimited minor services, but would also advocate more character attuned items. All MAJOR wins should be tied to the character that wins, and not just the account. If its profession specific, then don't allow other professions to participate. If its something level based, don't allow anyone below that level participate. This puts items in the hands of people that wants/needs them. It's not a bane to the after market, because realistically the game has no economy to break.
I have no problem with one character having a hundred custom swears, log in titles, and even custom verbs. I have ACT and SMILE and can be pretty creative if I am inspired. I don't see any problems for myself when I want/need work done, be it GALD, Features, or whatever. The raffles do need some work to make them more user friendly when a desirable item is up for grabs.
Perhaps some restrictions on how those wins are dispersed would increase interest.
~
I was pondering my contribution to this discussion but KRISTENL has pretty much covered it all for me.
>>>>That said, we all know some people put forth more effort than others. And that's fine, we all have our priorities. If someone wants to bust their hump for services, or dig 10 hours a day, shouldn't that effort, and sheer will, count for something? I also acknowledge that some people put forth the effort, but are just unfortunately "unlucky". But does limiting answer that?
This, especially, rings true for me. A lot of people, myself included, look forward to Ebon Gate in particular because of the wealth of shops and services available. It's very evident on these boards early on with requests for dates, itineraries, teasers and such like. People start to plan time off, coordinate with friends, set up AIM chats, share information, run CHE/MHO* events to help others with designs and prepare by downloading maps, highlighting merchant names etc. In the past, this has resulted in a "successful" event where they are rewarded by achieving some, if not all, of their goals, albeit MAJOR and/or MINOR services. Should they be penalised for that effort?
Personally, I get such a buzz from running around like a mad thing all week between the games and contests and raffles and service announcements (I'm out of breath just thinking about it). It's the one festival where I will actually forgo sleep. Knowing I'd reached a so-called limit on day 2 say, would be the ultimate buzz-kill for me. As KRISTENL says, limiting services would simply encourage MAers to bring more accounts to circumvent that limit; it doesn't really solve anything.
I know it's a very contentious issue, but I'm an advocate of attunement. It forces you to stop and think before entering every raffle and signing up for every service available. I don't think it would be unreasonable to make a number of significant "wins" account attuned.
>>Set standard hours of operation (SHO)for each event. (e.g 'Standard' hours for Ebon Gate will be from 9 AM EST until 11 PM EST). This will allow people some opportunity to eat, bathe, sleep, etc. without missing out on the things they are most interested in at the festival.
I'd like to echo VANKRASN39's point here, some of us are not in the US and we appreciate some services at non-standard hours.
All in all Wyrom, you do a fantastic job of co-ordinating and running events and I don't envy you trying to come up with a solution that satisfies the majority of customers. Good luck.
* Shameless plug for Sylvanfair and Elanthian Elegance.
>>You slay me woman! ~ Wyrom
~*~ She conquers, who endures ~*~
>>>>That said, we all know some people put forth more effort than others. And that's fine, we all have our priorities. If someone wants to bust their hump for services, or dig 10 hours a day, shouldn't that effort, and sheer will, count for something? I also acknowledge that some people put forth the effort, but are just unfortunately "unlucky". But does limiting answer that?
This, especially, rings true for me. A lot of people, myself included, look forward to Ebon Gate in particular because of the wealth of shops and services available. It's very evident on these boards early on with requests for dates, itineraries, teasers and such like. People start to plan time off, coordinate with friends, set up AIM chats, share information, run CHE/MHO* events to help others with designs and prepare by downloading maps, highlighting merchant names etc. In the past, this has resulted in a "successful" event where they are rewarded by achieving some, if not all, of their goals, albeit MAJOR and/or MINOR services. Should they be penalised for that effort?
Personally, I get such a buzz from running around like a mad thing all week between the games and contests and raffles and service announcements (I'm out of breath just thinking about it). It's the one festival where I will actually forgo sleep. Knowing I'd reached a so-called limit on day 2 say, would be the ultimate buzz-kill for me. As KRISTENL says, limiting services would simply encourage MAers to bring more accounts to circumvent that limit; it doesn't really solve anything.
I know it's a very contentious issue, but I'm an advocate of attunement. It forces you to stop and think before entering every raffle and signing up for every service available. I don't think it would be unreasonable to make a number of significant "wins" account attuned.
>>Set standard hours of operation (SHO)for each event. (e.g 'Standard' hours for Ebon Gate will be from 9 AM EST until 11 PM EST). This will allow people some opportunity to eat, bathe, sleep, etc. without missing out on the things they are most interested in at the festival.
I'd like to echo VANKRASN39's point here, some of us are not in the US and we appreciate some services at non-standard hours.
All in all Wyrom, you do a fantastic job of co-ordinating and running events and I don't envy you trying to come up with a solution that satisfies the majority of customers. Good luck.
* Shameless plug for Sylvanfair and Elanthian Elegance.
>>You slay me woman! ~ Wyrom
~*~ She conquers, who endures ~*~
I'm not a fan of attuned items (except things like the one per character quest items/giftbox etc). Beyond those, attunement just makes it difficult for people who over the years change their thoughts on their character etc. Then the item just languishes in a locker. I think most of us like it when our items retain value and we can sell them, so that we can effectively trade them in for something we want.
Kerl
Kerl
>I'm not a fan of attuned items (except things like the one per character quest items/giftbox etc). Beyond those, attunement just makes it difficult for people who over the years change their thoughts on their character etc. Then the item just languishes in a locker. I think most of us like it when our items retain value and we can sell them, so that we can effectively trade them in for something we want.
I don't even know if this is possible, but what if items were attuned for, say, 2 years. A good time commitment, but not forever.
When I read the initial post here, I think the first thing that came to mind was that it might be helpful to know a little more about DR's system of limitations... how it works, its benefits, its flaws, etc.
But anyway, were this all up to me, I think I would first focus on lifting up the bottom end rather than limiting the top end through...
1) Data Tracking
2) Better ways of disseminating info
If the number of services were restricted, it isn't going to help the people who aren't getting work because they don't know how to find the merchants. I think in recent years, the spread of information has vastly improved. I think more merchants than not have been announced, and it definitely used to be the reverse. I don't think it is nearly as necessary to be "in the know" to get work as it used to be. But as people have said, there's still room to grow there. I'd love to see what happens (which leads to point 1, the data tracking) if a single, consistent method for announcing merchants/raffles/contests/etc was used. (Even if something like the SERVICE verb were to be employed in this case, I still think it would be very important to make announcements.)
Situation where SERVICE would be great: "I just got home from work and I want to know what's going on."
Why making announcements is still important: I don't want to be running a script that's spamming SERVICE every 30 seconds to check for updates.
Wild Idea: Add a service window to the FEs that will keep you updated in real time.
SERVICE is great to get caught up on what's going on right now, but we still need to be informed in the moment when something new happens. I think a combination of the two would be necessary for optimal distribution of information.
And, if everybody is tagged every time they get a service... we can hopefully get situations like last night where you have about a billion people in a room and 4 merchants servicing it. But then, they can all set their spinners to 'people with 0 work'. Later on, it can go up to 'less than 3' or 'less than 10' or whatever. People who have had tons of work could hypothetically still get work... but they'd be at the back of the line.
Random Concerns:
1) Not all "minor/general" services are created equal
- Everybody wants GALD. This is known.
- However, there are plenty of services that are really only desired/needed by a minority. As an example, Bazzlewyn was converted self-charging magic items from various oldstyle varieties to the newstyle of self-charger. I got this service 4 times. I stopped at 4 because I only owned 4 items that needed it. This was a super niche service since it required you to have an existing, uncommon item. The reason I bring this up is that if you needed this service... all you needed to do was show up when it was being offered, and it was offered several times over the weekend. Everyone was taken care of each time it was run, even repeats. The 3 alterations I received this fest may have prevented 3 other people from getting alterations. However, my 4 charger conversions did not prevent anyone from receiving a conversion. If four more people had showed up, even in a single session, I have little doubt they would have gotten their conversions too. Just some food for thought.
- There are also plenty of "specialized" services - IE, merchants only working on X item from their shop. I can see the scenario developing where these specialized services suddenly become very undesirable to a lot of players. ("Merchant Steve is only working on his special scripted socks. They're REALLY cool socks, but getting his work on those could prevent me from getting items X, Y and Z from my wishlist, so I'm not going to risk it.") I don't think it's good for anyone for the general demand to lean towards turning every event into a GALD factory. It's always a delicate balance between having enough specialty work and enough general work... but I think a system of limitations would have the potential to put even more pressure on this balance.
- Different services take different amounts of time. We've all seen lists of 100 players get run through in less than 2 hours for services like LD (without the GA), recharging, unlocking, etc. On the other hand, some scripted items are weird and complex, and it might only be possible to do 7 or 8 in that same amount of time.
2) Expectations: You can remind us as many times as you like that the limit of X is a limit and not a guarantee. But putting a numerical barrier there creates a goal. Say someone walks away from EG this year with 23 services. I'd think most would be perfectly pleased with that. However, say you put down a limit of 25... what used to be a happy number is now a number representing your failure to max out your quota.
3) It's 4am on Thursday Morning. Two GMs drank way, way, way too much espresso. They are still awake and wanting to alter because their hands just won't stop shaking. They're doing GALD but there's only 10 players awake. Since it's at the end of the week, all 10 of these people have reached their limit. What happens now?
I don't have a good solution or answer to all of the problems of service balance... but this is mostly just a bunch of random thoughts that came to mind this afternoon.
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
But anyway, were this all up to me, I think I would first focus on lifting up the bottom end rather than limiting the top end through...
1) Data Tracking
2) Better ways of disseminating info
If the number of services were restricted, it isn't going to help the people who aren't getting work because they don't know how to find the merchants. I think in recent years, the spread of information has vastly improved. I think more merchants than not have been announced, and it definitely used to be the reverse. I don't think it is nearly as necessary to be "in the know" to get work as it used to be. But as people have said, there's still room to grow there. I'd love to see what happens (which leads to point 1, the data tracking) if a single, consistent method for announcing merchants/raffles/contests/etc was used. (Even if something like the SERVICE verb were to be employed in this case, I still think it would be very important to make announcements.)
Situation where SERVICE would be great: "I just got home from work and I want to know what's going on."
Why making announcements is still important: I don't want to be running a script that's spamming SERVICE every 30 seconds to check for updates.
Wild Idea: Add a service window to the FEs that will keep you updated in real time.
SERVICE is great to get caught up on what's going on right now, but we still need to be informed in the moment when something new happens. I think a combination of the two would be necessary for optimal distribution of information.
And, if everybody is tagged every time they get a service... we can hopefully get situations like last night where you have about a billion people in a room and 4 merchants servicing it. But then, they can all set their spinners to 'people with 0 work'. Later on, it can go up to 'less than 3' or 'less than 10' or whatever. People who have had tons of work could hypothetically still get work... but they'd be at the back of the line.
Random Concerns:
1) Not all "minor/general" services are created equal
- Everybody wants GALD. This is known.
- However, there are plenty of services that are really only desired/needed by a minority. As an example, Bazzlewyn was converted self-charging magic items from various oldstyle varieties to the newstyle of self-charger. I got this service 4 times. I stopped at 4 because I only owned 4 items that needed it. This was a super niche service since it required you to have an existing, uncommon item. The reason I bring this up is that if you needed this service... all you needed to do was show up when it was being offered, and it was offered several times over the weekend. Everyone was taken care of each time it was run, even repeats. The 3 alterations I received this fest may have prevented 3 other people from getting alterations. However, my 4 charger conversions did not prevent anyone from receiving a conversion. If four more people had showed up, even in a single session, I have little doubt they would have gotten their conversions too. Just some food for thought.
- There are also plenty of "specialized" services - IE, merchants only working on X item from their shop. I can see the scenario developing where these specialized services suddenly become very undesirable to a lot of players. ("Merchant Steve is only working on his special scripted socks. They're REALLY cool socks, but getting his work on those could prevent me from getting items X, Y and Z from my wishlist, so I'm not going to risk it.") I don't think it's good for anyone for the general demand to lean towards turning every event into a GALD factory. It's always a delicate balance between having enough specialty work and enough general work... but I think a system of limitations would have the potential to put even more pressure on this balance.
- Different services take different amounts of time. We've all seen lists of 100 players get run through in less than 2 hours for services like LD (without the GA), recharging, unlocking, etc. On the other hand, some scripted items are weird and complex, and it might only be possible to do 7 or 8 in that same amount of time.
2) Expectations: You can remind us as many times as you like that the limit of X is a limit and not a guarantee. But putting a numerical barrier there creates a goal. Say someone walks away from EG this year with 23 services. I'd think most would be perfectly pleased with that. However, say you put down a limit of 25... what used to be a happy number is now a number representing your failure to max out your quota.
3) It's 4am on Thursday Morning. Two GMs drank way, way, way too much espresso. They are still awake and wanting to alter because their hands just won't stop shaking. They're doing GALD but there's only 10 players awake. Since it's at the end of the week, all 10 of these people have reached their limit. What happens now?
I don't have a good solution or answer to all of the problems of service balance... but this is mostly just a bunch of random thoughts that came to mind this afternoon.
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
I think limits on wins are good and attunement (except in certain specific situations) is bad. The claim is that the spinners and raffles are entirely random. Having been at hundreds of raffles and spinners, I can say that it certainly does not SEEM like they are random to me. When someone gets spun over and over again, especially if they have multiple alts in the room, it's very frustrating. One way to mitigate that issue is to put hard limits on the number of times a spinner can choose a character or account over the course of a festival.
We're making distinctions here between certain kinds of services. L/D probably shouldn't have any limits. General alterations probably should because some alterations - for example, Joola gowns or Veola headwear - can take a significant amount of time. And sometimes people are incredibly inconsiderate of other festival-goers and will get multiple time-intensive alterations done. This detracts from the festival in multiple ways, the most obvious of which is that it leaves less time for the merchant to work on others' items. And when someone is spun multiple times in different settings and does the same kind of time-intensive alteration it has a cumulative negative effect on everyone's festival experience.
Attunement is a similarly complicated issue. The logic behind the argument in favor of attunement is that only people interested in the item will enter such a raffle because otherwise they have no use for it. That logic assumes that the person entering the raffle knows what the raffle is for and understands that the item will attune. I think everyone who was present at the last run of RTCF knows that isn't true because the minor coraesine win attuned, a sorcerer won, claimed she didn't know it attuned, and then the GM spun again. Assuming that people will know, understand, or care that items attune is probably giving them way too much credit.
I am still in favor of attunement, however, because it is incredibly irksome to see someone win a raffle for something, make an item that's less-than-useful because of ignorance, and then immediately sell the item. There was a character at this year's EG who won kroderine, made an item, and it was immediately for sale. I know plenty of warriors and rogues who would have really liked to have a kroderine item, but the item type is specific to that warrior or rogue and they're not necessarily going to buy what someone else made. It makes more sense to me to have someone who wants it and will use it win the item, even though I acknowledge that that's not necessarily who's going to enter.
Something does need to be done. I've gotten a couple T5s at EG this year and I was on the carousel earlier today with someone who hadn't gotten any. I felt genuinely bad for her because it's just the luck of the draw as to who wins or loses in these games. But when you see someone bragging about five or six T5 wins when you haven't gotten any, it makes the entire game more frustrating and less fun to play.
As someone who has been extremely lucky in the past, and not much at all this year, I think that limiting services would put a huge damper on events like these.
Sure I was disappointed when I brought two accounts, and not only didn't manage to win a single raffle, but I only managed to snag 3 gald and two of those were because I somehow remembered where the shop for a merchant was and was nearby. She went by room order and I was the first one there. I don't expect to be lucky every year, but it can get a bit daunting and disappointing to see the same few people win spin after spin and several "big" raffles. If we limited services though, we would be putting a damper on the people who do serious work before the festival to maximize what they get. Even though this hasn't been the best year for me, I'm already planning on coming next year and trying my luck again - hopefully with better results.
This is a very fine line to walk and I would hope that a lot of discussion is had before we try out any new limits. People always find a way to work the system.
>>General alterations probably should because some alterations - for example, Joola gowns or Veola headwear - can take a significant amount of time. And sometimes people are incredibly inconsiderate of other festival-goers and will get multiple time-intensive alterations done. This detracts from the festival in multiple ways, the most obvious of which is that it leaves less time for the merchant to work on others' items.
While I don't disagree with you that some items may take longer to alter than others depending on the merchants' familiarity with the item, the same amount of time and sometimes more of the merchants' time is eaten up by people who are not prepared, not paying attention or don't even have the item on them to be worked on. Most of the merchants I've been to this year have been very clear up front what they will or won't work on. If they're up to the task, why should these items never get worked on?
While I don't disagree with you that some items may take longer to alter than others depending on the merchants' familiarity with the item, the same amount of time and sometimes more of the merchants' time is eaten up by people who are not prepared, not paying attention or don't even have the item on them to be worked on. Most of the merchants I've been to this year have been very clear up front what they will or won't work on. If they're up to the task, why should these items never get worked on?
While I see the point of not liking character attuned wins I agree that attuning goes a long way towards making sure those who are interested in the prize want it for their character rather than for its resale potential. I think account attuned wins could be a way to mitigate those who say but what if I choose to take my character a different path.
Maybe not always, but I think it would be a good and healthy thing for the game if a standard percentage of MAJOR wins were account attuned. I don't know what that would look like without knowing my statistical data on numbers of items going out in the game and of course this is my opinion. I expect some would find this idea unconscionable, but you did ask.
<<While I don't disagree with you that some items may take longer to alter than others depending on the merchants' familiarity with the item, the same amount of time and sometimes more of the merchants' time is eaten up by people who are not prepared, not paying attention or don't even have the item on them to be worked on. Most of the merchants I've been to this year have been very clear up front what they will or won't work on. If they're up to the task, why should these items never get worked on?>>
I didn't say they shouldn't get worked on. I said there should be limits on the number of times people get selected so as to equalize services over festival goers AND potentially cut down on the amount of time spent waiting for complex alterations.
Good discussion so far. Let me share what DR has. They have a solid number for the event, and once you hit that number of services, you're done. Now there is more to it, but that's the gist. PM Solomon and I talked about it when RtCF was going.
But this is just a discussion to see how you all feel. I can tell you, we have people who barely get anything at festivals, and we have people who walk away with hundreds of services (this is not an exaggeration).
What I think we need to do more is, clearly define MAJOR services and make sure we're using them. But Raelee hit the problem dead on. All MINOR services aren't created equal. This is the case with MAJORs too.
But anyway, keep going guys, I'm listening.
~Wyrom, SGM
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But this is just a discussion to see how you all feel. I can tell you, we have people who barely get anything at festivals, and we have people who walk away with hundreds of services (this is not an exaggeration).
What I think we need to do more is, clearly define MAJOR services and make sure we're using them. But Raelee hit the problem dead on. All MINOR services aren't created equal. This is the case with MAJORs too.
But anyway, keep going guys, I'm listening.
~Wyrom, SGM
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>>What I think we need to do more is, clearly define MAJOR services and make sure we're using them. But Raelee hit the problem dead one. All MINOR services aren't created equal. This is the case with MAJORs too.<<
Clearly I am not in the trenches in Prime, but fishhooks that seek out people who've received no GALDs, or a small number, seem like a great idea. Besides the fact that fishhooks reward the set of eyes looking at the screen at the moment.
-E
What I think we need to do more is, clearly define MAJOR services and make sure we're using them. But Raelee hit the problem dead one. All MINOR services aren't created equal. This is the case with MAJORs too.
You could consider assigning point values to different services to address the differences. Points instead of counts.
Hypothetical Account limit of 15.
- Major raffle win 6-10 points
- Major Auction win 3-5 point (you are also paying your own silvers so it shouldn't count as much)
- Really good Raffle win (top end non-Major) 5 points
- Avg Raffle Win 3 points
- Joola alteration - 2 points (kidding but only sort of).
- General Alter - 2 point (I'd realy make this more like 1.5 points but this is just an example).
- Lighten/Deepen - 1 point
You get the general idea. Services, etc could be assigned variable points as well.
-- Robert
You could consider assigning point values to different services to address the differences. Points instead of counts.
Hypothetical Account limit of 15.
- Major raffle win 6-10 points
- Major Auction win 3-5 point (you are also paying your own silvers so it shouldn't count as much)
- Really good Raffle win (top end non-Major) 5 points
- Avg Raffle Win 3 points
- Joola alteration - 2 points (kidding but only sort of).
- General Alter - 2 point (I'd realy make this more like 1.5 points but this is just an example).
- Lighten/Deepen - 1 point
You get the general idea. Services, etc could be assigned variable points as well.
-- Robert
The point based system is an excellent idea! I'd still put Lighten/Deepen as an unlimited thing though, and probably the same with simple general alterations (short or long only, no show). These are sought after services that typically don't take much time and I do not feel that they should be limited.
>I'd still put Lighten/Deepen as an unlimited thing though, and probably the same with simple general alterations (short or long only, no show). These are sought after services that typically don't take much time and I do not feel that they should be limited.
I agree with this, although assign the more complicated scripted items a point
I fear a complex system that means GMs and players end up spending an inordinate amount of time... for basically the same result we have right now. And honestly I'm ok with the result we have. I generally don't get much service at all, except that I buy stuff. I have coins, but not the amount of time some people have. That's one of the great balancing elements in Geemstone. If you have the time, you can get things I can't. If I have the coins (generally gotten when I DID have the time), I can get things you can't. Works for me.
An example of what not to do is the pricing system you used at RtCF. It was so convoluted and complex that people had no idea what costs were going to be. On several major items I estimated what the cost would be for myself or other people, based on the many posts by Wyrom on the subject... and I was way off every time. Plus, squares were major screwed, but that's another subject. Keep It Simple Stupid. And before anyone gets offended, Stupid is a reiteration of Simple, not a description of someone's brain power.
Kerl
An example of what not to do is the pricing system you used at RtCF. It was so convoluted and complex that people had no idea what costs were going to be. On several major items I estimated what the cost would be for myself or other people, based on the many posts by Wyrom on the subject... and I was way off every time. Plus, squares were major screwed, but that's another subject. Keep It Simple Stupid. And before anyone gets offended, Stupid is a reiteration of Simple, not a description of someone's brain power.
Kerl
> So without thinking about MAJORs and MINORS, let's just look at services as a whole. What do you guys think are acceptable numbers? Would this effect your event experience knowing we're trying to take an approach to spread the wealth?- Wyrom
I would probably stop going to events if there were limits like this put in. As an example I hear people on lnet whining about their third or fourth tier 5 find in the games and how they dont like it. I admit I can feel jealous and think dirty thoughts about them as I havent gotten one tier 5 item. BUT they probably are spending 10 hours a day playing and Ive probably spent 10 hours all week playing them. Its fair they get more prizes. Limiting them to getting worse prizes would just make the part of eg they enjoy less enjoyable. And if Im not playing the games, would my odds go up then? Its the same with alters, l/d, raffles or whatever too. If I put in the time, read the officials, read the PC, find maps, join chat rooms... why shouldnt my odds of getting something be higher than someone who sits at the entrance and refuses to put any initiative into it?
If you're really going to start catering to the lowest common denominator, why have any work at all be involved in getting things. Just have an event be a random gift bag of a 5% chance at a random major, three alter scrolls and a cloak filled with random game junk and send us on our way. Because here is the inescapable fact, people who put more effort into things will get more out of it. Its just a fact and you cant policy it out(nor should you).
Here is how I would give people who didnt know what they were doing a better chance, you could put all raffles into a raffle table hallway at the entrance or charge an extra $10 for the event and have every raffle be for every character with an eg ticket(signed in or not)and then have it be the gms job to track the winner down. Also whoever said fishhooks should just grab people without having to be picked up for those who havent gotten work is genius. Dont just have them dropped in the same room though because script guy will pick it up first before casual player even notices it. My main thought is, you dont have to limit things for others to get people who normally are out of the mix involved.
I would probably stop going to events if there were limits like this put in. As an example I hear people on lnet whining about their third or fourth tier 5 find in the games and how they dont like it. I admit I can feel jealous and think dirty thoughts about them as I havent gotten one tier 5 item. BUT they probably are spending 10 hours a day playing and Ive probably spent 10 hours all week playing them. Its fair they get more prizes. Limiting them to getting worse prizes would just make the part of eg they enjoy less enjoyable. And if Im not playing the games, would my odds go up then? Its the same with alters, l/d, raffles or whatever too. If I put in the time, read the officials, read the PC, find maps, join chat rooms... why shouldnt my odds of getting something be higher than someone who sits at the entrance and refuses to put any initiative into it?
If you're really going to start catering to the lowest common denominator, why have any work at all be involved in getting things. Just have an event be a random gift bag of a 5% chance at a random major, three alter scrolls and a cloak filled with random game junk and send us on our way. Because here is the inescapable fact, people who put more effort into things will get more out of it. Its just a fact and you cant policy it out(nor should you).
Here is how I would give people who didnt know what they were doing a better chance, you could put all raffles into a raffle table hallway at the entrance or charge an extra $10 for the event and have every raffle be for every character with an eg ticket(signed in or not)and then have it be the gms job to track the winner down. Also whoever said fishhooks should just grab people without having to be picked up for those who havent gotten work is genius. Dont just have them dropped in the same room though because script guy will pick it up first before casual player even notices it. My main thought is, you dont have to limit things for others to get people who normally are out of the mix involved.
I'm perfectly fine with account-attunement; there's many times I've found something around which a character can be created. (And is in fact created. Krakii is one of them, since my Thief kept finding 2Hand weapons...)
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I am less of a fan of character-attunement, particularly in this day and age of skill migration and FixSkills. People some times change their focus, and as Kerl says, then the item becomes a locker-queen. (Krakii is one, in fact: she's been a pure-Caster since the GSIV conversion.)
However, I could be brought around to an in-game "event" or "quest", similar to the mechanics of how the Conversion Crystals work for clerics (only without the limitation to a single profession). Do Something Big, and you're allowed to un-attune the item and re-attune it to a different person, but it will always be attuned.
At a minimum, I'm thinking the base requirement should be, "Have one representative of each and every profession present in the room, in addition to the giver and recipient." Want it more difficult/arcane? Add in "each and every race," too. (All of this is representing the diversity of the lands, and variety of training styles.)
There's what, 10 professions and 13 races? Someone wants to MA fifteen accounts (13 races is enough to cover all the professions, with some overlap; plus the giver and recipient) to hand off their Auction-grade item, I say they've pretty well got the right to do so. They've certainly paid for the privelege.
On the other hand, some social butterfly can get the requirement handled at their local CHE/MHO(*) event, like a monthly meeting or even an induction session.
.
With all of that said, I would also be fine with the point system discussed.
I would also be fine with the "elapsed time" system.
And I would be alright with a combination of the two. (Like "one point requires a three month wait (one calendar quarter, four points == 1 year)," so you get a 10-point Major raffle win, you need to wait two and a half years before you can move the item.
.
(*) This abbreviation is now officially pronounced "chemo" ("key-mo"), like the cancer treatment.
.
I am less of a fan of character-attunement, particularly in this day and age of skill migration and FixSkills. People some times change their focus, and as Kerl says, then the item becomes a locker-queen. (Krakii is one, in fact: she's been a pure-Caster since the GSIV conversion.)
However, I could be brought around to an in-game "event" or "quest", similar to the mechanics of how the Conversion Crystals work for clerics (only without the limitation to a single profession). Do Something Big, and you're allowed to un-attune the item and re-attune it to a different person, but it will always be attuned.
At a minimum, I'm thinking the base requirement should be, "Have one representative of each and every profession present in the room, in addition to the giver and recipient." Want it more difficult/arcane? Add in "each and every race," too. (All of this is representing the diversity of the lands, and variety of training styles.)
There's what, 10 professions and 13 races? Someone wants to MA fifteen accounts (13 races is enough to cover all the professions, with some overlap; plus the giver and recipient) to hand off their Auction-grade item, I say they've pretty well got the right to do so. They've certainly paid for the privelege.
On the other hand, some social butterfly can get the requirement handled at their local CHE/MHO(*) event, like a monthly meeting or even an induction session.
.
With all of that said, I would also be fine with the point system discussed.
I would also be fine with the "elapsed time" system.
And I would be alright with a combination of the two. (Like "one point requires a three month wait (one calendar quarter, four points == 1 year)," so you get a 10-point Major raffle win, you need to wait two and a half years before you can move the item.
.
(*) This abbreviation is now officially pronounced "chemo" ("key-mo"), like the cancer treatment.
SHAYD11, Wyrom was talking about merchant services and raffles, not prizes from digging/carny games. You've completely confused the issue.
I would completely be in favor of limiting the number of majors and minors an account could win. The point system put forth earlier sounded good except for the bit about a MAJOR auction being valued lower than a MAJOR raffle. In nearly every instance auctions are how the extremely high end stuff is released (spirit bow, airship, boat, pure coraesine, etc), those types of things should count for more, not less.
-Richard/Fjalar.
I would completely be in favor of limiting the number of majors and minors an account could win. The point system put forth earlier sounded good except for the bit about a MAJOR auction being valued lower than a MAJOR raffle. In nearly every instance auctions are how the extremely high end stuff is released (spirit bow, airship, boat, pure coraesine, etc), those types of things should count for more, not less.
-Richard/Fjalar.
I'm not a huge fan of attunement but I think account level attunement would be preferable to character attunement.
Plus, you could offer a rare re-attunement service on occasion!
-- Robert
Just to expand on this. I sometimes use item wins as the inspiration for a new character. My level 63 paladin and level 28 cleric were both created as a direct result of items I had won in raffles in the past. Character attuned items don't allow for this possibility. Account attuned items would.
-- Robert
Plus, you could offer a rare re-attunement service on occasion!
-- Robert
Just to expand on this. I sometimes use item wins as the inspiration for a new character. My level 63 paladin and level 28 cleric were both created as a direct result of items I had won in raffles in the past. Character attuned items don't allow for this possibility. Account attuned items would.
-- Robert
I agree, Richard, MAJORS definitely would need to count the same across the board if a point system were used. I think in a situation like RtCF where we had a guaranteed MAJOR, those would not count toward the point system, while a situation where only a handful of MAJORs are offered, it would.
Obviously, we're just shooting the breeze right now. Don't feel this is what we're doing. I just like it. I can see a lot of problems with it already on the back end. But it's just a discussion at this point. You're just being a part of the ground floor of it right now.
~Wyrom, SGM
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Obviously, we're just shooting the breeze right now. Don't feel this is what we're doing. I just like it. I can see a lot of problems with it already on the back end. But it's just a discussion at this point. You're just being a part of the ground floor of it right now.
~Wyrom, SGM
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> But this is just a discussion to see how you all feel. I can tell you, we have people who barely get anything at festivals, and we have people who walk away with hundreds of services (this is not an exaggeration).
A random question just popped into my head:
With their limits in place, do you know if DR has as much of a problem with people not getting anything?
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
A random question just popped into my head:
With their limits in place, do you know if DR has as much of a problem with people not getting anything?
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
BHTM, I was making a comparison. Im sure you knew that though.
Punishing people for putting more effort into events is the part I dont get. I think limiting things like alters, l/d and unlocking is wrong. What about everything else that effort helps in gemstone? I get people are jealous but I'd like to think I could have a lucky event in the future. And no, Im not someone who is getting hundreds of services. I bet ive gotten less than 10 with no raffle wins or tier 5s.
Punishing people for putting more effort into events is the part I dont get. I think limiting things like alters, l/d and unlocking is wrong. What about everything else that effort helps in gemstone? I get people are jealous but I'd like to think I could have a lucky event in the future. And no, Im not someone who is getting hundreds of services. I bet ive gotten less than 10 with no raffle wins or tier 5s.
I am not on board for the limits either. As a casual merchant seeker, I have no problem finding any service I may need, and pass up more than I attend. The casual gamer, in today's Gemstone, should have no trouble whatsoever getting work done that they wish to have done. For what classifies as a MAJOR service, it's the luck of the draw and the nature of the beast. We are never going to see uber items across every character, race or class go to the most deserving, or even the most qualified. I don't see any problems with the current distribution methods, and any change from where I stand, would be a slight to those who have perfected the science of being where they should, when they should, and then being lucky enough to win. Some people enjoy that aspect of the game, as much as some enjoy the hunting experience, and the role-play experience. I don't see any real value added to the end of the game by imposing limits such as these.
~
>>I don't see any real value added to the end of the game by imposing limits such as these.
What do you say to the people who claim to never get anything and try? Try harder? You're doing it wrong? lrn2merchant? What about people who always think playerX wins everything? And what about people who just show up to a merchant to win everything, but have no use or knowledge of what the service even is?
Personally, as a player, I'd stop going to events if I were limited as well. I was one of those people who made sure I made room for at least the entire weekend for the event, no sleep, easy foods, good network of friends, etc.
~Wyrom, SGM
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What do you say to the people who claim to never get anything and try? Try harder? You're doing it wrong? lrn2merchant? What about people who always think playerX wins everything? And what about people who just show up to a merchant to win everything, but have no use or knowledge of what the service even is?
Personally, as a player, I'd stop going to events if I were limited as well. I was one of those people who made sure I made room for at least the entire weekend for the event, no sleep, easy foods, good network of friends, etc.
~Wyrom, SGM
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>What do you say to the people who claim to never get anything and try? Try harder? You're doing it wrong? lrn2merchant? What about people who always think playerX wins everything?
I ask them if they're working with others to get to merchants fast, if they know about the GSGuide site and if they're keeping those maps/lists open in a browser for quick reference, the AIM blast chat that just about every merchant announcement has been pasted into, the PC threads and LNET.
>And what about people who just show up to a merchant to win everything, but have no use or knowledge of what the service even is?
I really wish more merchants had signs up saying exactly what things are. For example, in Bazzelwyn's shop:
Dearest Customers,
The offerings on the stand represent special premium purchases, and as such they carry a matching price. They are all fitted with superior mechanisms, which WILL NOT degrade with use, and are enchanted four times. Additionally, each staff has been imbued with extra magic as follows:
Drakar-shod: fire
Rolaren-shod: vacuum
Copper-coiled: mana
Silvery faewood: acuity
Love, Bazzelwyn
Also, buy a lot of them so I can retire. Thanks!
Why can't more merchants do this in shops and for services? I understand if they're not in every shop, but having signs with specifics seems to be a rarity. Maybe we wouldn't be complaining so much about how little time there is to EG if more signs were posted. /rant
>What do you say to the people who claim to never get anything and try? Try harder? You're doing it wrong? lrn2merchant? What about people who always think playerX wins everything? And what about people who just show up to a merchant to win everything, but have no use or knowledge of what the service even is?
Maybe the mentors could run an ooc lecture on how to merchant hunt before large paid events. Websites, maps, networking ideas could be given out. Unfortunately for you, Wyrom, no matter what you do players are going to be jealous of other players. Putting limits on accounts isnt going to help with the jealousy either. Look at rtcf where limits were in place, people just brought more accounts! Maybe tell them they shouldnt try to fortune tell what use or knowledge other people have of the service or item.
Maybe the mentors could run an ooc lecture on how to merchant hunt before large paid events. Websites, maps, networking ideas could be given out. Unfortunately for you, Wyrom, no matter what you do players are going to be jealous of other players. Putting limits on accounts isnt going to help with the jealousy either. Look at rtcf where limits were in place, people just brought more accounts! Maybe tell them they shouldnt try to fortune tell what use or knowledge other people have of the service or item.
