Previous Thread
Expand All
Collapse All
Ignore Author
Reply
I'm wanting to address the boring/repetitive nature of hunting as a Cleric (i.e. 302/317 ad nauseam). However, I don't just want to introduce another new spell/ability when in terms of actual effectiveness, Clerics are in a pretty good spot. That's not to say there couldn't be enhancements in other areas (bolts, AoE crowd control/damage, etc), but my goal is the aforementioned issue. So how can that be accomplished without tipping the scales too much?
I see the 320 spell slot as a potential solution. As a rough idea, it could be a maneuver attack with a secondary effect when successful. It could have a 30 second cooldown, but also have a random chance to come off cooldown early. That accomplishes a few things. First, as a maneuver attack, it gives Clerics a new tool to fall back on when other attack methods are ineffective, but it's also limited due to the cooldown which also prevents it from just replacing one spell number with another in their hunting tactics. Second, with a chance to randomly come off cooldown early, it breaks up some of the monotony as you could then choose to use it immediately or save it for the next target.
If that idea was pursued, what interesting secondary effects would be worthwhile?
* There's no guarantee any of this would actually be implemented, but I am interested in feedback and suggestions on it.
GameMaster Estild
I'm generally a fan of disabling type affects - such as knockdown, slowing/RT, AS/CS reduction, or 316-like effects like immobilization. Especially if the spell is designed to be an opening spell. Maybe the secondary effects can reach other targets in the room with enough success and/or lore training.
I don't play a cleric, so take this for what it's worth, but at a glance this seems like one of the classes that could really benefit from the sort of treatment sorcerers received a few years back. I'm not convinced they're all that great in the power department, either. Perhaps in the short-term, propped up by 240. But do they not run out of mana all too quickly trying to maintain that? Meanwhile, it seems like sorcerers and wizards (at least post-cap) have mana for days and a lot more variety in terms of what they can do in combat (not to mention out of combat). Maybe I'm biased, but sorcerery/wizardry seems more like where casters should be and I don't see clerics matching up favorably in that comparison.
Anyway, making 320 a combat spell that is not just another CS-based mana hog would be a good start. You did a great job with earthen fury! So, I fully support that. But I hope for the sake of my cleric friends (and I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm off base here!) that this goes further than just 320. I think clerics need some attention, honestly.
~Taverkin
Anyway, making 320 a combat spell that is not just another CS-based mana hog would be a good start. You did a great job with earthen fury! So, I fully support that. But I hope for the sake of my cleric friends (and I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm off base here!) that this goes further than just 320. I think clerics need some attention, honestly.
~Taverkin
>If that idea was pursued, what interesting secondary effects would be worthwhile?
Going to assume this would be a single-target spell. In that case:
1 - Mana restoration.
Why: Because clerics who don't have the mana yet to keep up 240 would be hard pressed to spend 20 mana on one spell unless it partly pays for itself, and clerics who do have the mana to keep up 240 would be juggling the 30 second duration of that and the cooldown of 320, so they'd need a pretty compelling reason to even bother casting it. Mana is one of those reasons, especially considering that we're talking about the pure with the fewest options for mana recovery. (No Mana Leech, no sacrifice, no 3x PF + 1107 + Sunfist option.)
2 - Adds flares/weighting/Truehand/something to your attacks for the next X seconds/casts/whatever makes sense.
Why: Same reasoning as above, except this time paying for itself means changing quality of attacks instead of quantity of attacks.
I'm sure there are others besides those and what JL177 named; those are a quick couple off the top of my head. Some others would be things like hard RT reduction for channeled spells, splashing to multiple targets, ability to hit anti-magic creatures with spells for a limited time, etc.
...but those might be too big, since I'm assuming a 20th level spell would be a powerhouse in and of itself and that the secondary effect would truly be secondary and almost never the main reason the cleric would cast it.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
Going to assume this would be a single-target spell. In that case:
1 - Mana restoration.
Why: Because clerics who don't have the mana yet to keep up 240 would be hard pressed to spend 20 mana on one spell unless it partly pays for itself, and clerics who do have the mana to keep up 240 would be juggling the 30 second duration of that and the cooldown of 320, so they'd need a pretty compelling reason to even bother casting it. Mana is one of those reasons, especially considering that we're talking about the pure with the fewest options for mana recovery. (No Mana Leech, no sacrifice, no 3x PF + 1107 + Sunfist option.)
2 - Adds flares/weighting/Truehand/something to your attacks for the next X seconds/casts/whatever makes sense.
Why: Same reasoning as above, except this time paying for itself means changing quality of attacks instead of quantity of attacks.
I'm sure there are others besides those and what JL177 named; those are a quick couple off the top of my head. Some others would be things like hard RT reduction for channeled spells, splashing to multiple targets, ability to hit anti-magic creatures with spells for a limited time, etc.
...but those might be too big, since I'm assuming a 20th level spell would be a powerhouse in and of itself and that the secondary effect would truly be secondary and almost never the main reason the cleric would cast it.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
| Taverkin |
| I don't play a cleric, so take this for what it's worth, but at a glance this seems like one of the classes that could really benefit from the sort of treatment sorcerers received a few years back. I'm not convinced they're all that great in the power department, either. Perhaps in the short-term, propped up by 240. But do they not run out of mana all too quickly trying to maintain that? Meanwhile, it seems like sorcerers and wizards (at least post-cap) have mana for days and a lot more variety in terms of what they can do in combat (not to mention out of combat). Maybe I'm biased, but sorcerery/wizardry seems more like where casters should be and I don't see clerics matching up favorably in that comparison. |
| Anyway, making 320 a combat spell that is not just another CS-based mana hog would be a good start. You did a great job with earthen fury! So, I fully support that. But I hope for the sake of my cleric friends (and I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm off base here!) that this goes further than just 320. I think clerics need some attention, honestly. |
You're definitely correct. The lack of mana contributes to a situation where you feel like you have to exclusively use your most efficient attacks, because spending mana on others isn't affordable. You're also right that it would take more than just one change to address the issue I laid out, the mana concern, etc. I wouldn't expect a full review, but other adjustments can be considered down the road too. In general, that applies to every profession. They are never done, nor should they be, for any online game, in my opinion.
GameMaster Estild
| LEAFIARA |
| 1 - Mana restoration. |
| Why: Because clerics who don't have the mana yet to keep up 240 would be hard pressed to spend 20 mana on one spell unless it partly pays for itself, and clerics who do have the mana to keep up 240 would be juggling the 30 second duration of that and the cooldown of 320, so they'd need a pretty compelling reason to even bother casting it. Mana is one of those reasons, especially considering that we're talking about the pure with the fewest options for mana recovery. (No Mana Leech, no sacrifice, no 3x PF + 1107 + Sunfist option.) |
My issue there is how to conceptually tie it to a Cleric. Trying to attack a target, then somehow draining mana from it is too close to 517/702/719/sacrifice in my opinion.
| LEAFIARA |
| 2 - Adds flares/weighting/Truehand/something to your attacks for the next X seconds/casts/whatever makes sense. |
| Why: Same reasoning as above, except this time paying for itself means changing quality of attacks instead of quantity of attacks. |
Symbol of the Proselyte (340) already does that.
GameMaster Estild
<My issue there is how to conceptually tie it to a Cleric. Trying to attack a target, then somehow draining mana from it is too close to 517/702/719/sacrifice in my opinion.>
Clerics have the gods and spirits of Elanthia watching over them, have those lazy deities reward clerics with mana for helping keep the lands safe when they use the spell. Could even tie it into that concept by tying it into their convert status to have clerics get more mana back when attacking critters particularly disliked by their deity or when hunting in places favored by them or some other quark in their lore. Some Arkati/spirits have specific critters or types of critters they hate already listed in existing lore and most others shouldn't be hard to pick something out based on what's known about them.
Ideas for some of the deities I'm more familiar with:
Aeia- Extra mana when hunting in the River's Rest area
Huntress- when hunting spiders or bugs in general
Luukos- anything living
Andelas- bonus when hunting animals, penalty if that animal is a feline
Zelia- just randomly have the spell return mana or cost more mana then normal
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Clerics have the gods and spirits of Elanthia watching over them, have those lazy deities reward clerics with mana for helping keep the lands safe when they use the spell. Could even tie it into that concept by tying it into their convert status to have clerics get more mana back when attacking critters particularly disliked by their deity or when hunting in places favored by them or some other quark in their lore. Some Arkati/spirits have specific critters or types of critters they hate already listed in existing lore and most others shouldn't be hard to pick something out based on what's known about them.
Ideas for some of the deities I'm more familiar with:
Aeia- Extra mana when hunting in the River's Rest area
Huntress- when hunting spiders or bugs in general
Luukos- anything living
Andelas- bonus when hunting animals, penalty if that animal is a feline
Zelia- just randomly have the spell return mana or cost more mana then normal
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
That should be easy enough to work around. I mean, couldn't a deity simply grant some amount of mana for...reasons? The cleric is always doing the work of their chosen deity, right? On the other hand, there's no reason 320 has to be the answer to the mana issue. It's simply convenient because we're doing 320 now while a full review may not be on the horizon at this time. It would be killing two birds with one stone if we could add a little more variety to the cleric's combat arsenal while simultaneously alleviating the mana issue to some degree.
It's too bad, though. You guys are 2 for 2 on reviews in my book. Sorcerers are simply excellent now (an amazing turnaround from the broken class they were previously!). Great job there! Wizards were in a good place and remain in a good place (an even better place, in fact, from my perspective!). My biggest issue there is that the lore review only forces choices at lower levels. By the time you reach post-cap and 2x lore, there's not a lot of choices to make because most of the thresholds are 50 ranks and below and diminishing returns past that point are massive due to reliance on seed summation. Unfortunately, simply slapping on a specialization for each lore probably wouldn't be sufficient and would end up feeling worse than the current design. We'd need ELR 2.0 and a total redesign to fix it. It's also unfortunate that lores now represent the only meaningful variance between wizards (excepting war mages, who also become less viable the higher in level you climb). With a lack of build variations and wizards gaining virtually all of the meaningful lore benefits post-cap, we're all pretty much the same as far as training goes. That was something that should have been avoided, but I think we lacked the resources to make that happen in the initial ELR offering.
All good things to consider when clerics get their turn, I think. In the mean time, more spells to use in combat and some relief on the mana front sound like the highest impact moves we could make. Hopefully more clerics will weigh in so I can stop guessing at what is needed here! ;)
~Taverkin
It's too bad, though. You guys are 2 for 2 on reviews in my book. Sorcerers are simply excellent now (an amazing turnaround from the broken class they were previously!). Great job there! Wizards were in a good place and remain in a good place (an even better place, in fact, from my perspective!). My biggest issue there is that the lore review only forces choices at lower levels. By the time you reach post-cap and 2x lore, there's not a lot of choices to make because most of the thresholds are 50 ranks and below and diminishing returns past that point are massive due to reliance on seed summation. Unfortunately, simply slapping on a specialization for each lore probably wouldn't be sufficient and would end up feeling worse than the current design. We'd need ELR 2.0 and a total redesign to fix it. It's also unfortunate that lores now represent the only meaningful variance between wizards (excepting war mages, who also become less viable the higher in level you climb). With a lack of build variations and wizards gaining virtually all of the meaningful lore benefits post-cap, we're all pretty much the same as far as training goes. That was something that should have been avoided, but I think we lacked the resources to make that happen in the initial ELR offering.
All good things to consider when clerics get their turn, I think. In the mean time, more spells to use in combat and some relief on the mana front sound like the highest impact moves we could make. Hopefully more clerics will weigh in so I can stop guessing at what is needed here! ;)
~Taverkin
I was thinking along similar lines, Star. Thematically, I like it. But I think they need to be careful about placing too many benefits under this conditional system. If mana truly is an issue for clerics, then whatever we do to address that issue should apply to all clerics. Not just when the cleric is fighting undead in the graveyard with the moons aligned just so!
~Taverkin
~Taverkin
>My issue there is how to conceptually tie it to a Cleric. Trying to attack a target, then somehow draining mana from it is too close to 517/702/719/sacrifice in my opinion.
Increased mana regen for a little while since there's precedent with 215.
Flavor: The cleric, in a time of need, makes a plea to his/her Arkati/spirit for aid. The Arkati/spirit rewards him/her with a powerful attack and empowers him/her with an increased ability to tap into the mana flows for the next [time frame], but will only do it every so often (hence a cooldown).
>Symbol of the Proselyte (340) already does that.
Truehand and a CS boost, I know--I actually like 340 more than a lot of people, I think, and even maxed Influence and tanked Intuition just because of it.
Truehand was mostly just an example alongside flares or weighting, though, and maybe not even a good one. The only thing I really want to convey is my underlying thought that the design of 340 is geared for use either with grizzled creatures or 316 (because hitting the 150 endroll threshold is so vital), so there's room for another short-term powerup that's significantly weaker but is less costly and more general purpose.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
Increased mana regen for a little while since there's precedent with 215.
Flavor: The cleric, in a time of need, makes a plea to his/her Arkati/spirit for aid. The Arkati/spirit rewards him/her with a powerful attack and empowers him/her with an increased ability to tap into the mana flows for the next [time frame], but will only do it every so often (hence a cooldown).
>Symbol of the Proselyte (340) already does that.
Truehand and a CS boost, I know--I actually like 340 more than a lot of people, I think, and even maxed Influence and tanked Intuition just because of it.
Truehand was mostly just an example alongside flares or weighting, though, and maybe not even a good one. The only thing I really want to convey is my underlying thought that the design of 340 is geared for use either with grizzled creatures or 316 (because hitting the 150 endroll threshold is so vital), so there's room for another short-term powerup that's significantly weaker but is less costly and more general purpose.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
I'd like to see it tie in to 302.
The secondary effect makes undead enemies vulnerable to BANE and living enemies vulnerable to SMITE. It makes living enemies vulnerable to HOLY BOLT.
The secondary effect makes undead enemies vulnerable to BANE and living enemies vulnerable to SMITE. It makes living enemies vulnerable to HOLY BOLT.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| Whick's body sways back and forth for a bit. |
| * Whick drops dead at your feet! |
Lesser incarnation - a lesser incarnation of the clerics deity is summoned and attacks the target creatures, doing maneuver attacky stuff.
The incarnation remains with the cleric for 30 seconds, providing some small bonus thats really efficient if you allow it to go the whole distance.
The cleric can also command the incarnation to do a second effect, ending immediately (thus negating the long term bonus). The effect is weaker the shorter the remaining duration, and the incarnation has already channelled its power to the cleric.
So mana inefficient to use constantly to get both effects, or mana efficient if you slowly absorb all the power
Wow, you all are on fire tonight with fun suggestions.
Keep it up. :D
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
Keep it up. :D
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
Allows for some fun diety messaging too:
Eonak -
You summon one of Eonak's servants to aid you in battle. A large fissure erupts beneath a plump rat of cheese, tearing into it and making it gooey.
The forge-spirit floats over to you, it's warm glow providing respite and energizing your tired soul. You are comforted by the presence of a small piece of your diety.
>My issue there is how to conceptually tie it to a Cleric. Trying to attack a target, then somehow draining mana from it is too close to 517/702/719/sacrifice in my opinion.
312 provides a mana return.
Blocking a critters access to mana is a long established effect of spirit magic (I forget what the spell name was, its critter only now) and diverting it to the caster seems an obvious bonus for blessing lore to give.
...
320 isn't going to do much for a mid level cleric thats stuck with 302 ad nauseam and also has a much worse range of hunting choices than a capped cleric.
...
As a secondary bonus have subsequent MjS and MnS spells cast with clerical CS. Limit the number of casts/time its active to get the desired balance.
312 provides a mana return.
Blocking a critters access to mana is a long established effect of spirit magic (I forget what the spell name was, its critter only now) and diverting it to the caster seems an obvious bonus for blessing lore to give.
...
320 isn't going to do much for a mid level cleric thats stuck with 302 ad nauseam and also has a much worse range of hunting choices than a capped cleric.
...
As a secondary bonus have subsequent MjS and MnS spells cast with clerical CS. Limit the number of casts/time its active to get the desired balance.
A 20th level spell doesn't necessarily have to be one and done at 20 mana per cast. The devs have long since realized that strictly tying mana cost to spell level is arbitrary and restrictive.
Perhaps taking some variation on Kerl's suggestion, but also taking inspiration from the rather brilliant redesign of the wizard spell Tremors?
Perhaps taking some variation on Kerl's suggestion, but also taking inspiration from the rather brilliant redesign of the wizard spell Tremors?
>Blocking a critters access to mana is a long established effect of spirit magic (I forget what the spell name was, its critter only now) and diverting it to the caster seems an obvious bonus for blessing lore to give.
That's a good point. Interdiction is the spell, but now I'm also thinking of sorcerers' Corrupt Essence, where enemies can still use mana but their spells simply fail. So maybe clerics could have the opposite of that, where our spells succeed at a reduced cost for a little while.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
That's a good point. Interdiction is the spell, but now I'm also thinking of sorcerers' Corrupt Essence, where enemies can still use mana but their spells simply fail. So maybe clerics could have the opposite of that, where our spells succeed at a reduced cost for a little while.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
>I don't play a cleric, so take this for what it's worth, but at a glance this seems like one of the classes that could really benefit from the sort of treatment sorcerers received a few years back. I'm not convinced they're all that great in the power department, either.
As a player of multiple capped and post-cap pures, including clerics, I completely disagree with this assessment. My cleric is and remains more fun to play than my wizards or sorcerers.
The SLR was the lore review that was well done. I would not want to see anything resembling the ELR.
Not every profession needs a complete teardown review for the sake of change. Some people play their profession because they enjoy how it is already. That's why there are other, different professions, which is where forced choice should occur, instead of attempting to make every profession have identical abilities to each other. I'm against any nerfs to the current pure combat effectiveness of clerics at the post-cap level.
I appreciate that the current implementation of 320 allows for an additional option rather than nerfs to existing abilities or forced change. This is how adjustments should be made.
As a player of multiple capped and post-cap pures, including clerics, I completely disagree with this assessment. My cleric is and remains more fun to play than my wizards or sorcerers.
The SLR was the lore review that was well done. I would not want to see anything resembling the ELR.
Not every profession needs a complete teardown review for the sake of change. Some people play their profession because they enjoy how it is already. That's why there are other, different professions, which is where forced choice should occur, instead of attempting to make every profession have identical abilities to each other. I'm against any nerfs to the current pure combat effectiveness of clerics at the post-cap level.
I appreciate that the current implementation of 320 allows for an additional option rather than nerfs to existing abilities or forced change. This is how adjustments should be made.
<<<Aeia- Extra mana when hunting in the River's Rest area
<<Huntress- when hunting spiders or bugs in general
<<Luukos- anything living
<<Andelas- bonus when hunting animals, penalty if that animal is a feline
<<Zelia- just randomly have the spell return mana or cost more mana then normal
This is the problem and neat thing about clerics. Every spell could be like, 30 spells.
